Melee

[HughJ]

I enjoy playing Super Smash Bros. Melee, for the Nintendo Gamecube at a competitive level

It seems there is no preexisting thread dedicated to the game

I think I saw a smash 4 one but I dedicate a total of about four hours daily attempting to forget that game exists and what was I talking about

Anyway this post is mainly a query to see if there is any community interest in discussing the Melee metagame (top player scene, state of the meta, character viability) and/or creating a meetup thread for folks interested in Netplay duels

I assume it'd be mainly the former because sites like Smashladder already exist as good resources for picking fights online

If you're interested in getting into the game you're also welcome to message me or post here with questions on how to get resources or begin understanding the game at a competitive level

Thanks for reading and respond if interested. If there are even like 4 people I'll revamp this post and make it less desperate more official as a general discussion thread

[Tartar]

The Melee competitive scene has always seemed very interesting, although at the same time impenetrable to me. It's mostly the fear that I won't ever be able to achieve anything were I to even try, and thus I never started. I have played a lot of Brawl, but when people start talking about things like wavedashing and L-canceling and how important advanced techniques are to even being decent at the game, it kills any desire I have to even try to learn the game.

What makes you personally so interested in the game? And how much time have you invested to become as good as you are at the game?

[HughJ]

What makes you personally so interested in the game? And how much time have you invested to become as good as you are at the game?

Thanks for asking.

A part of my interest in Melee stems from a general fascination with games (typically older, from the 1995-2005 era) featuring metagames so highly developed and convoluted that they don't even resemble their source material

Examples include speedruns of Ocarina of Time (featuring manipulations of code such as wrong warping, HESSing, and RBA) and the Super Mario 64 A-button challenge (featuring HOLP, spawning displacement, and more)

I'm a big fan of speedruns and glitch art (both the ironic and genuine) as their unintentional and dynamic nature fascinates me

There is more to the melee scene in my eyes though than an evolved state of the game. There is also a huge amount of personality and uniqueness in the way players approach their characters and the game as a whole. Unlike in speedruns where there is set, optimal way to play, Melee really is much more freeform art than science.

It also is the only "sport" that has really captured my attention outside of a few matches, as I regularly tune in to twitch streams and catch up on YouTube vods even when the matches aren't very noteworthy

In terms of personal investment I'd say that over the past 2 years (ever since watching the Smash Bros Documentary by Samox) I've put in about 200-250 hours of playtime in Melee and well over 800 hours of watching footage/highlights

[webterminator77]

Thanks for sharing guys! I appreciate.

[nsbwinner2]

I enjoy playing Super Smash Bros. Melee, for the Nintendo Gamecube at a competitive level

It seems there is no preexisting thread dedicated to the game

I think I saw a smash 4 one but I dedicate a total of about four hours daily attempting to forget that game exists and what was I talking about

Anyway this post is mainly a query to see if there is any community interest in discussing the Melee metagame (top player scene, state of the meta, character viability) and/or creating a meetup thread for folks interested in Netplay duels

I assume it'd be mainly the former because sites like Smashladder already exist as good resources for picking fights online

If you're interested in getting into the game you're also welcome to message me or post here with questions on how to get resources or begin understanding the game at a competitive level

Thanks for reading and respond if interested. If there are even like 4 people I'll revamp this post and make it less desperate more official as a general discussion thread

Pretty cool...I would be interested but don't really have time. Will let you know if I do.

[Dark Desire]

I enjoyed playing melee a ton when I was younger and would love to get into competitive melee like I am with sm4sh but unfortunately it's way to late to do that with how much melee has advanced on a technical level.

It's way more entertaining watching melee then it is sm4sh but the metagame feels really lacking, some of the more interesting characters of the melee cast have pretty much no viability in competitive settings, unlike sm4sh where even though tiers exist, the overall viability for the top half of the cast which is like 30+ characters aren't very far from each other.

[Godot]

I enjoyed playing melee a ton when I was younger and would love to get into competitive melee like I am with sm4sh but unfortunately it's way to late to do that with how much melee has advanced on a technical level.

It's way more entertaining watching melee then it is sm4sh but the metagame feels really lacking, some of the more interesting characters of the melee cast have pretty much no viability in competitive settings, unlike sm4sh where even though tiers exist, the overall viability for the top half of the cast which is like 30+ characters aren't very far from each other.

^ very true. You don't only see more variety in Sm4sh character wise, but playsyle wise too. When I watch Melee all I see is high risk high reward game play. With the exception of the occasional zone-y Samus or Defensive space animal, everyone is super gimmicky combo characters who have very basic combo strings that are trickier to perform then they are to enjoyable to watch for me.

From what I have seen watching Melee you have the following groups of characters:

The characters everyone mains or think they are good with when they want to be a try hard;

Fox, Falco, Marth, and Shiek.

Characters who are secretly as good but hardly anyone uses;

Ice Climbers, Peach, Jigglypuff.

Characters that aren't as good but you do see people use every so often;

Captain Falcon, Samus, Luigi, Mario.

The characters who suck but casuals think they are good with and often times aren't;

Ganondorf, Roy, Mewtwo.

No one knows how this is a thing;

AmsA's Yoshi.

I do get the hype behind Melee however, it is he same as Tekken 3, Street Fighter 3, MvC2, and Halo 2. Games that are old and have newer cleaner iterations of, but people like for the shenanigan gameplay that fans have dubbed "advanced techniques" that often times takes a lot of practice to master. As well as 0 input lag leading to some intense play.

The games are also poorly balanced, but people don't always watch the variety of in game characters, but for the variety of characters playing the game. And how players use the same exact tools everyone else has and uses in their own subtle but unique ways.

In the end though, none of this is for me. I prefer games that have a bit more polish that often bring a lot more variety to the game that isn't artificially put in by the fans. I don't know how to explain it right now, but I might later when I gather my words.

[HughJ]

The characters everyone mains or think they are good with when they want to be a try hard;

Fox, Falco, Marth

Characters who are secretly as good but hardly anyone uses;

Ice Climbers, Peach, Jigglypuff.

If you think Icies, puff, and peach are underrated in the melee meta and that fox and falco players are all 'tryhards' then you're clearly some kind of psychopath

Just keep smash 4 out of this thread for the sake of my sanity

Edited October 26, 2016 by HughJ

[Flux]

If you think Icies, puff, and peach are underrated in the melee meta and that fox and falco players are all 'tryhards' then you're clearly some kind of psychopath

Just keep smash 4 out of this thread for the sake of my sanity

Oi, no need to r00d. Let's all try to keep things cool around here. Opinions are opinions and everyone has there own. Smash 4 players should be welcome to share there own views as long as they're talking about Melee as well. That's part of what this thread's about after all.

On topic, I'm a super big fan of Melee. It's definitely my number 1 investment as far as gaming goes, and I'd really like nothing more than to reach the top level of play. I main Marth, but I've been working on Fox and Falco as well, though there nowhere near my Marth yet. I also have a pocket Mario as my low-tier of choice. I've been practicing for around four years now, but I've only really started going to tournaments and learning how to play against real people this past year. It basically means that tech-skill wise, I'm far beyond most people in my area, but I really need to learn the neutral game intricacies to improve. Anyway, I'm down to play netplay with anyone who wants to do that.

As far as tier list discussion, I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about the top characters. My own list would be something like

Fox

Falco

Marth

Sheik

Puff

Peach

Falcon

Samus

ICs

Yoshi

Luigi

as far as the top and high mid characters go. I feel like Puff in particular performs better in practice than where I've placed her, but I think that with time she'll become more predictable and people will have an easier time dealing with her. I honestly considered placing her right under Falcon, where I think she'll end up, given some time.

[Dark Desire]

Oi, no need to r00d. Let's all try to keep things cool around here. Opinions are opinions and everyone has there own. Smash 4 players should be welcome to share there own views as long as they're talking about Melee as well. That's part of what this thread's about after all.

On topic, I'm a super big fan of Melee. It's definitely my number 1 investment as far as gaming goes, and I'd really like nothing more than to reach the top level of play. I main Marth, but I've been working on Fox and Falco as well, though there nowhere near my Marth yet. I also have a pocket Mario as my low-tier of choice. I've been practicing for around four years now, but I've only really started going to tournaments and learning how to play against real people this past year. It basically means that tech-skill wise, I'm far beyond most people in my area, but I really need to learn the neutral game intricacies to improve. Anyway, I'm down to play netplay with anyone who wants to do that.

As far as tier list discussion, I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about the top characters. My own list would be something like

Fox

Falco

Marth

Sheik

Puff

Peach

Falcon

Samus

ICs

Yoshi

Luigi

as far as the top and high mid characters go. I feel like Puff in particular performs better in practice than where I've placed her, but I think that with time she'll become more predictable and people will have an easier time dealing with her. I honestly considered placing her right under Falcon, where I think she'll end up, given some time.

no pika?? shame on you >:[

[Flux]

no pika?? shame on you >:[

Oh shoot, I actually completely forgot Pika. Nobody plays him in my area, so it's easy to forget. I'd personally put Pika somewhere around Samus, probably right above her, but maybe below.

[HughJ]

Sorry I've been super busy lately and haven't been online as much as I'd like

As far as tier list discussion, I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about the top characters.

Here's my tier list made with this site.

I don't know where to begin describing how I ordered these guys but it's a combination of:

- Their in-game power (options, setup, projectiles, mobility, kill power)

- Their general repute among smashers, both top players and the online community

- My personal experience with the characters

So it's not necessarily a "perfect" tier list (if it was I would only factor in the first listed aspect) but I think the latter two have their own important place. It also helps acknowledge my bias

In order for me not to write a full-length essay on each character's placement it would probably be better to just discuss specific questions...

Flux, if you want to ask me anything specific about my tier list vs. yours, that'd be great; I also want to open the general question below:

Does Fox deserve his own tier (S)?

[Godot]

I personally disagree with Fox having his own tier, he matches up with Falco, Marth, and Shiek pretty evenly.

[HughJ]

I personally disagree with Fox having his own tier, he matches up with Falco, Marth, and Shiek pretty evenly.

Some people argue that Fox has many more options when presented with a situation than Falco, Marth, and Sheik. Consider his ability to shorten side-B in recovery, giving him 4 movement options out of 1 move; his extended up B recovery providing him with what some say to be 352 angles; and his fastfalling nature, which combined with very different short and full hop heights gives him many different approach options.

I personally think Fox could merit his own tier for these reasons and more in-game aspects, but there are some realistic factors that drag him down.

- Humans simply can't consider all of his options at once

- Having a huge amount of options only enables players to take the best ones, not to mix things up, as players who main characters with limited options (i.e. Falcon) must

- Much of Fox's inputs are frame-perfect or near frame-perfect (shortening side B, waveshining, invincible ledge-dashing)

- Fox's learning curve is profoundly steep, as low-tech Fox mains are comboed to death easily by Sheik and Marth, and flubbed inputs can often lead to SDs (ledge dashing especially)

[dan2]

Some people argue that Fox has many more options when presented with a situation than Falco, Marth, and Sheik. Consider his ability to shorten side-B in recovery, giving him 4 movement options out of 1 move; his extended up B recovery providing him with what some say to be 352 angles; and his fastfalling nature, which combined with very different short and full hop heights gives him many different approach options.

I personally think Fox could merit his own tier for these reasons and more in-game aspects, but there are some realistic factors that drag him down.

- Humans simply can't consider all of his options at once

- Having a huge amount of options only enables players to take the best ones, not to mix things up, as players who main characters with limited options (i.e. Falcon) must

- Much of Fox's inputs are frame-perfect or near frame-perfect (shortening side B, waveshining, invincible ledge-dashing)

- Fox's learning curve is profoundly steep, as low-tech Fox mains are comboed to death easily by Sheik and Marth, and flubbed inputs can often lead to SDs (ledge dashing especially)

one thing to note also is that fox's laser ultimately ends up controlling the neutral in most of his matchups, and it's especially potent in marth matchups where marth has a harder time dealing with projectiles than sheik and falco do

[HughJ]

one thing to note also is that fox's laser ultimately ends up controlling the neutral in most of his matchups, and it's especially potent in marth matchups where marth has a harder time dealing with projectiles than sheik and falco do

Sheik, Marth, Falcon, and Peach are all top characters that have unfortunately large hitboxes due to their humanoid stature.

Sheik and Marth actually have a comparatively easy time dealing with them due to low-profile dashes (Sheik especially benefits from this, as her dash attack is one of her best approach options) and good ledge stalls (Marth can regrab ledge with low risk and Sheik can snap to it with up-B.) The former ability forces Fox mains to time their lasers better, and the latter forces them to approach if they are at a % deficit.

Falcon does not have a low profile dash and often does not want to end up near the ledge under mid-range laser pressure (long-range he's usually ok). He normally has to hax dash or otherwise manipulate platforms until an opportunity for an approach arises. I'm less familiar with Peach mains' response but I often see Armada powershielding or readying turnips.

Falco has lasers of his own, which usually means laser situations are more a test of precise timing and twitchy reads that a lot of players are uncomfortable with. I think this is why we often see less campy Fox strategy in dittos and the spacies matchup.

Edited October 31, 2016 by HughJ

[Omega_Ra1der]

I am a Smash 4 player but play melee for casuals friendlies to be fair. While I do prefer the lower tech barrier that smash 4 has, I do like watching melee when it is intense as all hell and if I could play competitive melee, I would probably main Marth or Sheik. Some of the character community members sometimes are very interesting. Ganondorf is generally considered not good in melee despite the fact he is barely viable. Brawl's version of Ganon was just wasn't in the right game due to the meta still being revolved around two characters and a few sub optimal characters. Regardless of all of that, Ganondorf still have some loyal players that will play him even when he isn't viable but he is popular.