What does mean little Evi want?

[Eviora]

Hullo, Reborn. Several of you may already strongly dislike me. If so, and you clicked this thread anyway for some reason, you may be in for a relief. I have no intention of debating here. In fact, if you try to argue with me about anything I don't feel is especially relevant, I probably won't even respond.

What you'll find instead of a debate is me doing something I always strive to do and so rarely can. (At least, I'll try.) I'm going to completely drop my defensive shields. So be warned: this is a really egocentric thread.

Lying is a habit that became natural to me a long time ago. For those of you who don't know, I'm trans. For a very long time, I've known that something was different about me. In an ideal world, I would try to understand it and be my best self. But this is not an ideal world. I'm something of a coward, and I was terrified of rejection from everyone. I did my research on the internet, and I let hateful people convince me that if I acted on my feelings, it would make me less than human, So, instead, I crushed them. As a child, I suffocated myself to death. Since then, a lot has changed, and I've made steps toward recovering. But they're only partial steps. You don't murder yourself at such a young age and come out of it unscathed. So, now, I am left with this empty feeling that a huge part of my life was all but erased, and that I never will be whole.

But since I've come to accept who I am, I have tried not to tell that sort of lie. And, again, I've failed. Lying, it seems, is a fundamental part of human interaction. The internet, where I live most of my life, makes doing it even easier. So I act strong and calm when I'm scared and on the verge of tears, I'm verbally aggressive, sometimes even cruel, because if I reject you, it lessens the blow I feel when I perceive you rejecting me. People sometimes accuse me of black and white thinking. They're not wrong. That is a symptom of one of the personality disorders my experiences have embedded in me. But it's also more than that. For better or worse, it's part of who I am now. Part of what makes me me. And I won't turn my back on it and condemn it. I've had enough of that for one lifetime.

So... what does Evi want? What is her heart's truest desire? Justice and equal treatment for everyone? No, I don't think so. I stand up for the rights of others because I understand that they may feel similarly to me, and I know that if we all support each other, we're more likely to make the progress that is necessary. But what I really want is way simpler than that. I just want to be treated like a girl, by everyone, all the time. Some transgender people take pride in their struggle, in what they have to go through to be who they are and the strength that fosters within them. More power to them, but I am not one of them. I would like to be treated as just some girl, not specifically a transgender girl. Personally, I would rather not have the fact that I got screwed over in the womb be one of the defining factors of who I am.

But that's how many people would think of me. Consider Caitlyn Jenner. When you think of her, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Perhaps you, personally, are not like other people, but I would wager for most of them the first thought is transgender. Not her athletic achievements. Not her obnoxious reality TV dynasty. In the eyes of the masses, the things she has done are completely overshadowed by the way she was born.

And then we come to recent events. The fact that Donald Trump (and, for me, even worse, Mike Pence) were elected into the White House. Congress, the Supreme Court, everything is now controlled by people with a track record of reducing people to the way they were born. And around half the voters in this country wanted that. The implications, in my eyes, are undeniable. I'm not welcome here. I, as a person, don't matter. People will tell me otherwise, but, again, it's human nature to lie. It's also the nature of most people to want to comfort those who are in pain. But those comforting words are not reflected in reality. Many of the people who assure me that I deserve to be treated as a person voted for me not to be all the same.

In light of all that, my eyes turn back to my greatest obsession. Death. Based on what evidence we have, I believe killing myself a second time - this time in a way that ensures I won't come back - will bring an end to my pain. People will say that there's a chance that isn't the case, and I acknowledge that I could be wrong, but I'm not afraid of taking that gamble. With every passing day, I become more certain that it's the kindest thing I could do for myself. There's a handful of people who would be truly hurt if I did so, of course. But I'm not a good enough person to damn myself to decades of suffering just to protect them. The only reasons I haven't offed myself already are 1. because I don't really want to die, I just think it's better than the alternative and 2. because the halfhearted nature of my resolve has made my previous attempts really weak and unreliable. Yes, I have tried it before, more than once, and I wish I had succeeded. Judge me for that if you want. I'm so used to being judged.

Anyway, I didn't most all this to garner your pity. Many of you may be in situations similar to my own. I guess I just did it so people would understand. Maybe just to help me come to terms with my current situation. I've always found organization helpful.

Now, to especially unkind of you out there, attack me if you must. My flame shields are always at the ready.

[Alistair]

Hi Evi. As you can see I'm relatively new to the forums, so I don't know you at all and I have no idea about things you posted that could have pissed other members. I simply stumbled upon your thread.

While it's true that human nature leads us to lying sometimes, I try to avoid doing this because lying in people's faces and then having to put up with that crap is a burden to me, and I hate needless burdens. So what you see is what you’ve got: a guy with no interest whatsoever in not speaking his mind here.

Reading your post was quite the experience for me because I mostly dislike witnessing the problems and struggles of other people. I'm not a particularly brave guy. When I see troubles or sensitive topics ahead, I tend to avoid them. But when I read that I felt compelled to react somehow. Not sure why, but I see you put an effort in explaining your situation, describing your way to deal with hardships, and I can definetely respect that. That's not something I could easily do myself.

People who have trouble finding their own place within our society are sadly not that uncommon. But I find seeing people who seriously consider leaving this world altogether because of this... frightening. I'm very afraid of death, what could come (or worse, not come) after. I don't know what it would take for me to even consider ending it all. Knowing there are people out there whose behavior and beliefs hurt others to the point of wanting everything to stop, it really, really pisses me off.

But I think they are the minority. Almost nobody with their sanity genuinely wants to make life difficult for others. Sure, Trump was elected. Against Hillary freakin Clinton, talk about a choice. That tells us a lot about what's going on in the world right now. But that doesn't necessarily mean all these voters reject you. They didn't vote for Trump because of his opinions on trans people, LGBT issues or whatever. Most of them don't even care. They voted for Trump because they were afraid and/or wanted to get rid of Clinton. They think they'll be safer with Trump. That's their opinion, I'm not gonna discuss it.

My point being, of course there are douchebags and intolerant people out there, but most people aren't like that. I'm not, I'm sure most members here aren't either. And despite what's happening, despite political power, douchebags do not rule our lives and do not get to decide whose life matters and whose life doesn't. We and the people we live with are the ones that matter. They are the ones with an immediate impact on us and they are the ones we need to care about. Like I said, I don't know you, but I'm sure there are people who love you and people out there who don't know you yet but just want to be friends. These people can give you strength just like you can give them strength. I know it may sound cheesy, but I choose to believe this.

You made it this far, you endured stuff I can only imagine. All of that shouldn't be squandered. Now let's keep going, let life happen. You can handle this just as well as anyone else. I hope things get better for you.

[Redo.]

Hi Evi, while I mostly ignore this part of the forum, this post got my attention, mostly because it was fundamented and well written, so yeah, here's my honest (that's yours to believe, I came to myself some years ago that lying about some stuff is not worth it, even more in a place like the internet where few people if no one knows you, and while sometimes you can't understand the person fully, by being honest at least you get your points across). Also, well, I like somewhat to get in other people life somehow, because my life is quite boring now, so if my post sounds rude or something, I'm sorry, honestly.

About being dissapointed by the society for the US elections, well, I'm not american (at least, not american in the english way, I'm from the continent America, but not from the US), so I don't fully know how bad will be Trump or Pence in the White House, but I will say this, we are WAY past the worst time of our humanitiy, back in the time you could have been killed or worse by just not having the same religion as the majority (good term, I'll use this often), today luckily for us (you, in this particular case) we as humans are way more open to individuality an less to, well, being common and the good of the family (or stuff like that).

In my case, while I'm a heterosexual male (and I'm just as human as the other 7 billion or so living in this piece of rock), it turned that 2 of my best friends, those who are with you since you're quite young, are gay, or well, told us they are gay in their mid teens, which was quite the scenario as we went to a Catholic School, so do quite understand the struggle of the LGBT communitiy not being, well, normal as some people would call it.

I'm getting out of focus, no, the majority didn't reject you, well, some people probably did (homophobia and not being normal will always have some individuals that rejects it, like some people rejects religion, some ethnic groups, you get the idea), but in this case as an outsider of the US political world most of trump speech and the reason he won was not his anti-LGBT communitiy slogan, but he was an outsider of the current US political scenario, he had the balls to tell everyone what he though and didn't care about repercusions and his rival was Hillary Clinton who was the continuation of Obama, but without his charisma. People probably choose Trump for about the same reasons they chose Reagan quite some years ago.

And about your second point, your life, as a person that at least conciously lost the fear of death (I understand that death is something nomal that will come sooner or later, and you can't just avoid it) I decided to live my live to the fullest possible so when my time comes, I have the least possible of things that I wanted to do but I couldn't, but I know I couldn't jut end my life, first because I have no interest in ending it and I want to know how far I can get, and second because when the time comes, something deeper, and instic of survival that we all have because we are animals will kick in and make me hold on my last second to prolong them, so if you could at least tried to end yourself, then I must admit you have at least more guts than me. In the end I won't say don't take your life, because that's your choice and yours alone, but I will say at least try to get to everyone that you care or cares about you and get your points straight, the pain is worse if they don't see it coming, so while you prepare your final decision make that the last image they have from you is a good one (and if you decide to stay and fight, well, they will have a better image of yourself, which is never bad).

[Felicity]

Treat life like a game. The farther you get, the higher your score. I've heard rumours threw even a NG+ mode called Reincarnation.

I can't say I agree with much of your conduct around reborn, you have an overwhelming penchant for pessimism I've rarely seen rivaled. But different strokes for different folks. At least you're somewhat open to discussion.

[Ironbound]

Nobody has the right to commit murder. That includes murder of the self. Realise that it is emphatically not an option. It's not because of what an individual may feel. It's about what's illegal and unthinkable. You will not contemplate murder. You will not justify the most ultimate of wrongs with ease of action.

That said, I understand your concern, and I do not play down the suffering you have experienced, be it at others' hands or your own. Political fluctuations are not the end of the world, and will not result in the persecution of third gendered persons. For whatever it's worth, you reside in the one country which professes the code of freedom and equality more loudly than any other. The vote to elect Trump may not be palatable, but you are not to take it as the manifestation of an entire society's hatred against you; such an assumption is implausible. I do not say that there is not the fair share of psychos, deviants or xenophobes who exist in your country and who have doubtless played a part in the election, but there is an overwhelmingly large number of sane and respectful people as well. Even among the many who voted trump. The main reasons for most of them supporting trump is hardly likely to be because they want third gendered people to be persecuted. Analyses of their motivations are available everywhere, even here in Reborn.

I will also remind you that any personal attribute is only as relevant as you make it out to be. It is not for you to decide what other people will view you, and such matters are immaterial in any case. But it is for you to decide how you conduct yourself. I doubt very much that Caitlyn Jenner would identify herself based solely on her gender, and not of herself and her achievements as a whole. I doubt very much if Arunima Sinha thought of herself as an cripple, a rape victim and a destitute, and not as the pioneer amputee who scaled mount Everest despite all odds. Recognise yourself, yes, do not delude yourself or ignore anything about you, but remember that no person is defined by a single attribute. Do not grant your insecurities more importance than they deserve. Make your personality dependent on who you are, not what you are. And you have the whole of life ahead of you to decide upon what kind of achievements you wish to accomplish.

I do not pity you, pity is something to be reserved only for things that cannot control their own fate, like animals or the unfortunate who have lost their minds. Neither am I unkind. I am, however, stating a fact: Life is meant to be lived, and murder is not an option. Get that out of your head.

[Eviora]

Viri, you have your opinions, but where I'm from, suicide is not illegal. As far as I'm concerned I have every right to do what I will with my body, and that includes snuffing the life from it. Preaching at me will do you no good, especially since you have no actual evidence, and should I someday actually kill myself, feel free to call my corpse a murderer. I doubt it will care. Like it or not, suicide is an option. Plenty of people have done it before, and plenty more will do it in the future. That is reality.

[Ironbound]

I can do no more for you, except to hope that you've acknowledged and thought about what else I've said besides murder being unthinkable.

[Felicity]

Viri, you have your opinions, but where I'm from, suicide is not illegal. As far as I'm concerned I have every right to do what I will with my body, and that includes snuffing the life from it. Preaching at me will do you no good, especially since you have no actual evidence, and should I someday actually kill myself, feel free to call my corpse a murderer. I doubt it will care. Like it or not, suicide is an option. Plenty of people have done it before, and plenty more will do it in the future. That is reality.

The meatspin is also an option. So is firing ping pong balls from down under. Sure, other people have done it but that is never an excuse for you to do it. That's just an excuse to save you from thinking for yourself as far as your right to do it. I haven't a doubt that if you thought critically about your life you'd find that the possibility of your life improving is a better bet than venturing into the next shitshow of the cosmos or that there is someone who would care if you were gone. If you hurt someone else with that act then you do have a responsibility to take care of yourself.

[Zane0144]

Or maybe not everyone is racist and bias. Maybe shoving everyone into a category is just as assuming of you as it is of the people who generalize you. Im 100% sure not all people who voted for Hillary are for abortion. They just cate about certain other issues more. Just as im sre the opposite is true of Republicans. We need to stop labeling people. Can we all just learn to get to know someone as a person and not a label. Honestly it seems like both "sides" want the same thing in that regard.

We are all people and struggle and judgement goes both ways. The other day my younger brother was in one of his college classes. Wherein the teacher had a cross in a cup of urine on his desk. He demanded every one of his students come up and state that it was art. My brother had always been very vulnerble to the opinions of others but also had recently come out of some troubled times with the help of some people at a church he started attending on his own. And for him to have to go up and refuse to state that the he didnt believe that offensive symbol was art has left a label on him the rest of tbe year that he cannot get rid of. Its sickening what people do. Im not trying to say this is anything close to what you have faced. Its modtly me venting just because this happened very recently.

My heart goes out to your struggles Evi.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Zane0144

[Eviora]

Maybe it is possible that my life will get better if the right things happen. Maybe not. That does nothing to change my right to determine my own fate. Saying I have no right to do a thing just because it would make others feel bad is nonsense. If that were a rule, no one would be able to do anything. People who vote for Trump make me feel bad. People who express transphobic opinions make me feel bad. Sometimes, even people who beat me in video games make me feel bad. That doesn't mean everyone else should be forced to keel over and let me win.

On the whole, Trump winning is devastating to a lot more people than my death could ever be. So you can drop the whole notion that I should be forced to live for the sake of others. Selfishness is not doing what you will with what is yours, it's demanding that others experience prolonged sufering to keep you in your comfort zone.

And, frankly, I've probably thought more about this subject than you ever have, so you can drop the suggestion that I'm not thinking critically. I have been thinking about this for a very, very long time. The fact that I've arrived at a different conclusion than you have does nothing to nullify that.

I've already had the discussion regarding how much what a person feels matters relative to the real effects of their vote several times on this website. I won't repeat it here.

Maybe it was stupid of me to lower my defenses. So many people would rather poke at them than talk to the person within.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Eviora

[Eviora]

If there is a god, he has already done the opposite. What do you hope to achieve by saying something like that to an atheist?

[Alistair]

Maybe Viri didn't know that you're an atheist. I'm sure his intentions are good. He has his convictions, but I feel he's a respectful person. Nobody here is trying to piss you off Evi.

[Felicity]

You act as though people who voted for Trump factored you specifically into their vote. When I say you shouldn't hurt people I was pretty clearly implying the people near to you, not someone halfway across the country who has no bearing on you. You can't twist what I'm saying so blatantly and then expect me to take you seriously.

The General idea when people disagree with you is that there is genuinely something wrong to be seen. Maybe you're so wrapped up in your opinion and adverse to other viewpoints that even after years of thinking you're incapable of looking at it another way. Either way, it's clear you're feeling defensive now and I can't say much more with a productive outcome.

[Eviora]

No, I don't act as if Trump voters had me in mind. I don't care what they had in mind. I care about what they did.

You don't think a vote for Trump hurts anyone near you? Do you know any women? Any LGBT people? The answer to the first is "yes", and unless you're unfairly counting only people who are geographically near you, the answer to the second is the same. You're on Reborn, after all. I have no clue how or whether you personally voted, but those truths are the same for anyone here who voted Trump. They have hurt people, people close to them, and more than a few. They've also hurt people who are complete strangers on the other side of the country. I have no idea why you wouldn't think that also counts.

[Felicity]

Well first, voting for Trump isn't even a proper parallel to emotionally wounding someone who loves you, you're clearly trying to deflect this into another kind of argument. Anyone with the ability to understand emotional context can see the difference there. Second, I don't know if you can comprehend emotional context if only the action matters to you, certainly you don't seem to be trying.

No, I don't act as if Trump voters had me in mind. I don't care what they had in mind. I care about what they did.

You cannot understand someone properly without it, otherwise you just end up skewing things your way to fit your own perspective. There we see the loop connect back to how you seem to be caught up in your own superior opinion.

[Eviora]

You don't think voting to suppress my rights might emotionally wound me? It does. You can assume I don't understand emotional context if that makes this easier for you to reconcile, but that doesn't make it so. Maybe I just see things differently than you do.

I value actions over words and excuses. Anyone can offer nice words. Maybe, in their hearts, they genuinely mean them. But, to quote Batman Begins, "It doesn't matter what's underneath. It's what you do that defines you."

[Felicity]

There you go, twisting things to fit your perspective. I didn't assume anything, I listened to what you said and factored that in to what I can understand, literally quoting you. You can have another perspective, you clearly do, I'm trying to put across another viewpoint for you to consider based on your words.

I'm also not denying that Trump votes can hurt you. I'm not denying that, I'm saying that there is a difference between the two actions. Your assumption that I was simply proves that you're being hypocritical as you accuse me of doing the same thing. Surely that is another indicator that your thinking process here is flawed?

You're not entirely wrong in that you have a choice as to what to do with your body but the consequences of that choice can hurt people in a more significant way than casting a simple ballot would, there is a certain notion that you owe those people consideration before taking action, at least, if not holding off for their sake as much as your own.

and I'm sorry I understand what you're going for with the batman quote but... Batman? The only person you should really quote is Heath Ledger and that's mainly cuz he was a fantastic actor and a good impression of him only adds to the world.

[Eviora]

No, you did assume something, you just are not acknowledging the logical consequences of the things you said. I made a comparison between hurting people by killing yourself and hurting people by voting for a monster. You said it wasn't a proper comparison (with no evidence) then said "anyone with the ability to understand emotional context can see the difference there." Since I do not see a meaningful difference, it follows that you're saying I don't have the ability to understand emotional context.

If I killed myself, that could hurt a handful of people very, very badly. A vote for Trump contributes to policies that could hurt millions of people quite badly. Sad to say, but the sheer numbers involved make voting for Trump an overwhelming more damaging action. The truth is, my life doesn't matter so much.

As for that quote, I'm happy to back it up with examples you might find difficult argue with. For instance, members of ISIS have probably been so twisted by religion that they legitimately believe they are doing the right thing. They hope to serve their supposedly infinitely good god as best they can. And those intentions don't make their horrific actions one bit more excusable. They are terrible people because they do terrible things.

By the way, that's not to say voting for Trump is as bad as participating in an ISIS terrorist attack. People very rarely understand that when I use these extreme examples, what I'm actually doing is setting up a logical precedent establishing that their defenses are invalid. If ISIS members should not be excused for doing awful things because they meant well, then why should Trump supporters be excused for less heinous but still harmful actions because they thought they were doing the right thing?

[Kurotsune]

. People very rarely understand that when I use these extreme examples, what I'm actually doing is setting up a logical precedent establishing that their defenses are invalid

Right because that's not widely recognized as an invalid way to present a point at all and would totally be accepted in a legitimate debate.

That's literally all I'll post here, and I'll make it a point not to even look at this thread again. It's widely known how much I dislike attention-grabbing posts that claim to be anything but that, and I know I wouldn't be able to argue with you without losing my cool - Because you make it nearly impossible for anyone to do so.

So with that, I'm out.

[Felicity]

You're trying to apply logic to an argument very deeply involved with emotion. Using Trump and ISIS as comparisons isn't valid because they aren't anywhere near as personal, that was what I was getting at. Forgive my poor wording if that's what you'll hold against me. The personal aspect is what makes the emotional damage so much more devastating and more important, there is merit to considering the larger picture but it is a dangerous thing that can negatively impact your mindset, which I think we're seeing here, and it also doesn't mesh with the smaller details of these groups of people.

Seeing as your logic relies on horrendous blanket statements, let me posit that the ISIS forces have cooks. Soldiers have to eat right? Well, those cooks are supporting the soldiers efforts, yes, but they could have a myriad of reasons for doing so. Maybe it is faith, maybe they just want a job. Maybe they only know how to cook in that environment, who the hell knows? You don't, your logic doesn't work when you move along the scale. It's not so clean. Look closer at a situation and it just doesn't work. I know a lot of trump voters who decided he was the lesser evil because of what they have seen and head of Hilary. They judged that Trump was a safer bet than her despite the way he conducts himself. There's countless more examples but it goes to show that you can't just say these things unless you commit to going out there, talking to and understanding why those people do what they do. If you do that I will bet any sum of money that you will see that you just can't make these statements and believe in them so much.

[Alistair]

I have no intention of debating here.

Well so much for that huh.

Also, gotta love how Kurotsune jumps in just to say they'll make a point not to even look at this thread again.

That downward-spiraled real quick.

[Guest]

Does Donald Trump really deserve your or anyone else's tears or death for that matter?

Value yourself more than that, Eviora.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Telos

[Eviora]

@Kurotsune

???

Despite what I think is sarcasm, that is indeed a valid means of logical argument, and you provided a citation saying so yourself. If you think my comparison is a strawman, feel free to show me why.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Eviora

[Felicity]

Don't thrust the burden of proof onto others. When the argument descends into quibbling like this, it's over. At this point you have enough to look at for an alternative opinion. Hope it helps.

[Eviora]

@Dobby Before we were comparing voting Trump to suicide, not to ISIS. And it's basically just your opinion that voting Trump is less personal. I take it extremely personally because his likely actions would reduce me to a demographic and abuse me accordingly.

You're right, ISIS does have cooks. And (unless they are being forced) I do hold them fully responsible for the atrocities they support. Maybe they mean no harm, maybe they're just doing what they love, but that doesn't change that fact that they're contributing to some quite terrible actions. The same is true (to a lesser extent) with Trump supporters. I'm sure they have their reasons, reasons they think are good, but that doesn't lessen the harm they're about to have helped cause.

Incidentally, my "actions above all else" attitude is not strictly logic. When it comes to morality, you'll find pretty much nothing is supported purely by logic. Empathy is the bigger piece at play. That's basically how our society is run - logic and empathy are interwoven in such a way that we want to avoid certain things, understand that others also want to avoid them, so agree to bad doing those things to anyone. The trouble in this case is that one group doesn't mind if the bad things happen to minorities as long as they themselves are protected, and people buy into their deflections and vote accordingly. So you're correct in saying this is an emotional matter. Emotion is essential to our desire to stand up for each other.

@Alistair

Yeah, that failed spectacularly. It's mostly my fault, I suppose. I'm really bad at not taking the bait, especially when it comes to matters I'm passionate about.

@Telos

If we're being honest, I barely value myself at all. If Trump would do me the courtesy of outright killing me rather than putting me through some legislative nightmare he'd worry me a lot less.