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Sun and Moon Tier Discussion [WARNING: SPOILERS]


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I'll make a compilation within spoilers about what people have already suggested for certain pokemon.

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Torracat - by Chase

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Incineroar - by Chase

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Bewear - by Lord Chespin

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Tsareena - by Chase

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Is this akin to Gen 7 competitive discussion or just standard discussion? Not sure how I deep I wanna go into this.

Spoiler tho:

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Edited by Noir
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Here's some sets for mons I'm using so far.

_official__inceneroar_by_kajiatsui-dan39

Incineroar @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- Fake Out
- Cross Chop
Still contest that Incineroar belongs in UU. Fake Out makes for a great revenge death if need be. Flare Blitz is powerful, it's got a good defensive typing. Cross Chop is good for coverage and any incoming rock types.
UkrrfxG.png
Tapu Lele @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
A wallbreaker. Psyshock with (I think) 50% increase from Psychic Terrain, STAB, and Choice Specs can hurt. Fairy is always an OP type. Thunderbolt is good coverage, and Focus Blast for those pesky Steel types. This could might UU, but I'm going to lean OU. Perhaps BL.
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Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Night Slash
- Sacred Sword
- Smart Strike
I tried Psycho Cut to get to incoming fighting types, but right now with Aegislash in the meta among some other things, Night Slash is kind of necessary. Smart Strike might not be a super powerful Steel type move (70 BP) but it is STAB. This thing is a good late game cleaner. It basically gets Moxie with a base 181 Attack and the same defensive typing as Ferrothorn. Buyer beware though, this thing is as fragile as a twig on the special aside with a mere 32 SpDef, so don't try to switch it in on Special Attackers. Not sure where to tier this right now, it's rather niche oriented if you ask me.
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At the moment the only UB that I can see being in OU is Celesteel, because even though it does get beast boost, it also has the most "balanced" (using that word lightly) as it doesn't have any one stat overwhelming all the others; and it has the same defensive typing as skarmory, the with its main recovery being leech seed, which means that it is able to be beaten down relatively easily.

Guzzlord has possibility of being OU, purely because it's similar in stats to Blissey/Chansey, if not slightly worse, as its typing puts it at more of a disadvantage than they do, and it is also lacking any real proper form of recovery. Even with max defense it only reaches 225, putting it at a disadvantage in comparison to other fat HP mons for it, who either have a higher max def/spdef stat or similar stats with reliable recovery.

Pretty much all the other UBs are likely to be Ubers as they have either insane bulk and a decent attacking stat or usable speed and an insane attacking stat, which when combined with beast boost create problems very quickly, as its still easy for them to kill things without their boosts, for the most part.

Edited by Swampellow
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  On 11/18/2016 at 10:02 PM, Swampellow said:

At the moment the only UB that I can see being in OU is Celesteel, because even though it does get beast boost, it also has the most "balanced" (using that word lightly) as it doesn't have any one stat overwhelming all the others; and it has the same defensive typing as skarmory, the with its main recovery being leech seed, which means that it is able to be beaten down relatively easily.

Guzzlord has possibility of being OU, purely because it's similar in stats to Blissey/Chansey, if not slightly worse, as its typing puts it at more of a disadvantage than they do, and it is also lacking any real proper form of recovery. Even with max defense it only reaches 225, putting it at a disadvantage in comparison to other fat HP mons for it, who either have a higher max def/spdef stat or similar stats with reliable recovery.

Pretty much all the other UBs are likely to be Ubers as they have either insane bulk and a decent attacking stat or usable speed and an insane attacking stat, which when combined with beast boost create problems very quickly, as its still easy for them to kill things without their boosts, for the most part.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought Nihilego's stats & moveset were both not that spectacular either, or am I thinking of a wrong UB? Honestly I hope I am because I'd love a super powerful poison type.

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  On 11/18/2016 at 10:04 PM, Marcello said:

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought Nihilego's stats & moveset were both not that spectacular either, or am I thinking of a wrong UB? Honestly I hope I am because I'd love a super powerful poison type.

Oh rip me, actually forgot about that one, I haven't actually looked over that one yet then, perhaps I will do so now.

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  On 11/18/2016 at 10:17 PM, Swampellow said:

Oh rip me, actually forgot about that one, I haven't actually looked over that one yet then, perhaps I will do so now.

It's mostly specially orientated with decent speed as it seems. It has access to T-Spikes and SR so... offensive Setter? It's pretty frail in the Defense side though it's got respectable enough an HP base it might take a neuatral hit, but 47 is mad low for a Def stat. It's 103 BS notably outpaces the "100Base speed" zone of things ((notably as a rock type allowing it to outspeed Mega Zards.))

In short, it's not Ubers material either imo... since I don't think it's quuuuite powerful enough but I really dunno jsut how well t can benefit from Beast Boost tbh... it doesn't never as much as the others cuase it's SpAtk stats is respectablly good but it's not like wel... you've seen the other ones LOL.

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Honestly I think Celesteela has alot of viability purely because, with it's balanced stats and Beast Boost, it could run a lot of different builds, with what, 4 different options for what stat gets boosted when it KOs stuff? It could be pretty unpredictable.

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Glass Jelly/Nihilego

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For Nihilego this is what i tried:

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Nihilego is pretty cool right now cause it counters most of the Tapus! It outspeeds them all except Tapu Koko, threatens them with STAB SE Sludge Wave and with the natural high Sp. def and HP can take any non SE hit from them (except Bulu which is physical). With that spread I made, its Speed is higher than its Sp. att meaning that whenever it KOs something it becomes faster! That can be handy cause it makes it harder for your opponent to revenge kill it with something that is naturaly faster.

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Nihilego can also work with Reflect and Lefties. This way it reduces the incoming damage not only for itself (fixing the terrible Def), but also for the team, providing a team-member with turns to setup and sweep. Lefties are there for recovery given its 131 SpD stat will tank some hits.

I am curious how Intimidate affects Beast Boost in physical attackers. Do they boost their speed after the Intimidate, or is the original stat what counts?

Similarly, if you have a mixed attacker (Celesteela) where both your Atk and SpA are equal, do both get the boost?

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  On 11/18/2016 at 11:47 PM, NickCrash said:

Nihilego can also work with Reflect and Lefties. This way it reduces the incoming damage not only for itself (fixing the terrible Def), but also for the team, providing a team-member with turns to setup and sweep. Lefties are there for recovery given its 131 SpD stat will tank some hits.

I am curious how Intimidate affects Beast Boost in physical attackers. Do they boost their speed after the Intimidate, or is the original stat what counts?

Similarly, if you have a mixed attacker (Celesteela) where both your Atk and SpA are equal, do both get the boost?

Well from what I've tested at least, Beast Boost goes off the actual stat itself. So for example, if you have a defensive (with defense as its highest stat) Celesteela, if it knocks out a mon then it's defense stat will go up. Guzzlord, when I tested it with max hp and attack had its attack boosted (obviously because ago cannot be boosted. So basically Beast Boost boosted whichever stat on the mon is highest, not whichever base stat is highest.

Also Z moves are kind of insane, I was using a flygon(woooo DD) and it was in against a max def Skarmory at about 80%, flygon was at +2 and I used my z move attack (I had the option for z move dragon dance, which I think just gives a bigger boost) and it annihilated the Skarm from where it was at.

Edited by Swampellow
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  On 11/18/2016 at 11:54 PM, Swampellow said:

Well from what I've tested at least, Beast Boost goes off the actual stat itself. So for example, if you have a defensive (with defense as its highest stat) Celesteela, if it knocks out a mon then it's defense stat will go up. Guzzlord, when I tested it with max hp and attack had its attack boosted (obviously because ago cannot be boosted. So basically Beast Boost boosted whichever stat on the mon is highest, not whichever base stat is highest.

I know it factors in the EVs, IVs and Nature. What I'm asking is whether it also factors in stat buffs, eg Baton Pass Speed Boosts, and debuffs like Intimidate.

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  On 11/19/2016 at 1:26 AM, NickCrash said:

I know it factors in the EVs, IVs and Nature. What I'm asking is whether it also factors in stat buffs, eg Baton Pass Speed Boosts, and debuffs like Intimidate.

Ah, I get what you mean. If it does then that could make it much more interesting Edited by Swampellow
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phermosa has way to much coverage and variety. She can run life orb, band, scarf, etc. A simple set to sweep is that she has high attack (adamant nature) with high speed (which is already high enough) give her a scarf she outspeeds most mons and gets her attack bosted every time she knocks one out. She cant stay in ou. she too strong for it.

That setup I said above is just one of the many builds you can give her. She has so much more builds

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I steadfastly refuse to play competitive mons with this generation, but even so, I can't resist teambuilding:

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And nah, I think that if two stats are numerically equal, beast boost picks a random one to boost. Rather like Download.

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  On 11/19/2016 at 3:19 AM, Jericho said:

Ice Beam and High Jump Kick are going to be on most sets.

Lunge and Focus Blast are also some other possibilities.

>Lunge

I mean Jeri, the thing has U-Turn so it can just get out of there while doing massive chunks so no real point in running that....

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  On 11/19/2016 at 3:51 AM, Noir said:

>Lunge

I mean Jeri, the thing has U-Turn so it can just get out of there while doing massive chunks so no real point in running that....

It always lowers opponents attack by 1, like intimidate, is more powerful than U-Turn. and maybe you don't want to switch out. It's better than X-Scissor.

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  On 11/19/2016 at 4:28 AM, Jericho said:

It always lowers opponents attack by 1, like intimidate, is more powerful than U-Turn. and maybe you don't want to switch out. It's better than X-Scissor.

Well, sure. Of course, I just speak from experience. U-Turn/HJK/Ice Beam/HP Ghost (for stray Aegis) is currently the norm now, but the current OU meta also isn't that Bug weak, if the opposite, which makes an additional Bug coverage move rather redundant.

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