Sun and Moon Tier Discussion [WARNING: SPOILERS]

[Deleted User]

So I'll be sure to make this nicer later, but what tiers do you think certain pokemon belong in? What pokemon change in the new meta?

I'll add my own opinions after I've had the chance to use some more.

[NickCrash]

I'll make a compilation within spoilers about what people have already suggested for certain pokemon.

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Torracat - by Chase

Blaze/Intimidate

85 Attack, 80 Special Attack, 90 Speed, 50 Def/ SpeDef

Notable moves - Fake Out, U-turn, Fire Blast, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Crunch

Ideal Items - Eviolite

Tier? - PU

I can really see this thing being super annoying with it's decent defenses and Eviolite -and- intimidate. It almost has that Monferno feel in PU, except that it's probably a little bulkier after the -1, allowing for it to get off those free Fire Blasts more often. It's speed (which is better than it's final evolution's. :C) puts it in the middle of the PU tier and faster than many of the hazard users such as Kricketune, Golem, Torterra, the aforementioned Monferno, Gigalith, Carracosta, etc.) which could cause some frustration for slower set-ups. Fake Out allows it to get chip damage, and U-turn allows it to get out of a sticky situation.

Intimidate makes this thing pretty viable in the tier if you ask me.

Incineroar - by Chase

Blaze/Intimidate

HP: 95
Atk: 115
Def: 90
SpAtk: 80
SpDef: 90
Spe: 60
Total BST: 530

Fire/Dark

Items to consider: Assault Vest, Choice Band, -maybe- Choice Scarf, Leftovers

Potential? Offensive -and- Defensive

Moves - Darkest Lariat, Throat Chop (a 60 BP move that prevents the opponent from using sound base moves for two turns), Flare Blitz, Cross Chop, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Flamethrower, Wisp, Toxic, Swords Dance, Substitute, Outrage, U-turn

Yeah, yeah, it's slow - but it's also distinctly BULKY and has intimidate, which will make it a strong defensive Pokemon with things like Will-o-wisp for added insult. It also can pivot with U-turn, which goes very nicely with Intimidate. The neat thing though is that this thing has a lot of coverage moves, which makes it a pretty decent AV user.

One of the things that's pretty telling is that Cross chop gives it a move that can hit things it's typing wouldn't allow you to hit well, and we got the feeling the Heel Fighter would get some access to Fighting type moves. It also gets Earthquake, which is just a fantastic move in general.

Choice items, particularly the Band moreso than the Scarf, are viable, given the fact that U-turn can really put a hurt on someone after a boost. It's defensive enough as well to consider Lefties.

You could potentially cause a switch with intimidate and get a Sub up for free if you don't with your opponent caught trying to attack it at -1, then go for Swords Dance to make Incineroar threatening. It also can be used to RestTalk potentially.

Final verdict?

It's a UU Pokemon - with some opportunities to make it in an OU squad as a niche weapon against things like Bisharp and Mega Scizor.

Bewear - by Lord Chespin

Fluffy/Klutz/Unnerve

HP: 120

Attack: 125

Defense: 80

Special Attack: 55

Special Defense: 60

Speed: 60

Ideal Items: Leftovers, Assault Vest, Life Orb(?)

Potential: Bulky Offensive

So, first off, this thing gets perfect coverage aside from ghost-types, and it gets Shadow Claw to remedy that. It also gets good STAB options in Return and Hammer Arm (and yes, I know it has stronger options in Double-Edge and Superpower, but that just cuts into its longevity), Earthquake to hit fire-types (which it has a pseudo-weakness to) on the switch, and some form of recovery in Pain Split. All it really needs from tutors in later games is Drain Punch, and it would be the ultimate Assault Vest tank; even without drain punch, though, it's still a great defensive tank, since Fluffy gives it a Defense stat of about 178. Of course, its Fairy weakness, vulnerability to statuses, and the aforementioned Fire pseudo-weakness mean that it probably won't be the most top-tier of threats, but I'm willing to bet this guy will be at least UU, maybe even OU.

Tsareena - by Chase

Tsareena

Grass

Abilities: Leaf Guard / Queenly Majesty / Sweet Veil
HP: 72
Atk: 120
Def: 98
SpAtk: 50
SpDef: 98
Spe: 72

Noteworthy moves: Trop Kick (70 BP Grass type move that lowers the foe's attack one stage), Rapid Spin, High Jump Kick, Acrobatics, U-Turn, Play Rough, Toxic, Light Screen, Reflect, Synthesis, Aromatherapy

Potential: Offensive Spinner/Bulky Spinner/Assault Vest Attacker

That 120 Attack is huge for a base 72 speed 'mon. It slightly outspeeds and is basically on-par with Bisharp in terms of offense due to it's stat distribution, and with High Jump Kick in it's learnset, that Bisharp isn't going to be very keen on taking this thing on... because of Queenly Majesty, meaning it can't Sucker Punch it!

For a Grass type, it's got fairly considerable bulk, which paired with the attack lowering side effect of Trop Kick will make Tsareena thick -.....sorry, had to get that obligatory pun out of the way. You get the point. It can quickly become a problem.

Finally, it has some pretty interesting moves. Tsareena gets access to the always helpful Rapid Spin, which means it's able to clear hazards, while being essentially uncaring about Stealth Rock damage. It can set Screens, it can heal it's team, and it can heal itself with Synthesis, which goes pretty well on a bulkier Grass type like Tsareena.

High Jump Kick gives it an out against Steel Types, and U-turn could be used on choice/AV sets to take out other Grasses and Psychics.

I think what makes Tsareena potentially great is that it has some options, but isn't nearly as complicated to use. The benefits of having Rapid Spin means it can still do it's hazard clearing job even in an Assault Vest.

Like EVERYTHING in Alola, it's speed is a problem, and I am taking the gamble on Incineroar surpassing expectations already. Expect this thing to be in RU for sure though, while potentially being a REAL PAIN to those fat water types in UU.

[Noir]

Is this akin to Gen 7 competitive discussion or just standard discussion? Not sure how I deep I wanna go into this.

Spoiler tho:

Pheromosa needs to get out of here, U-Turn + those offenses with Dugtrio buffs is stupid even with Aegis being everywhere.

Tapu Fini and Tapu Koko are being close to Hoopa-U and Lando-I levels of power and centralization respectively. Tapu Koko gets a bonus for pairing well with Alola Raichu.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Noir

[Deleted User]

Here's some sets for mons I'm using so far.

Incineroar @ Leftovers

Ability: Intimidate

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Flare Blitz

- Darkest Lariat

- Fake Out

- Cross Chop

Still contest that Incineroar belongs in UU. Fake Out makes for a great revenge death if need be. Flare Blitz is powerful, it's got a good defensive typing. Cross Chop is good for coverage and any incoming rock types.

Tapu Lele @ Choice Specs

Ability: Psychic Surge

EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Moonblast

- Psyshock

- Focus Blast

- Thunderbolt

A wallbreaker. Psyshock with (I think) 50% increase from Psychic Terrain, STAB, and Choice Specs can hurt. Fairy is always an OP type. Thunderbolt is good coverage, and Focus Blast for those pesky Steel types. This could might UU, but I'm going to lean OU. Perhaps BL.

Kartana @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Beast Boost

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Leaf Blade

- Night Slash

- Sacred Sword

- Smart Strike

I tried Psycho Cut to get to incoming fighting types, but right now with Aegislash in the meta among some other things, Night Slash is kind of necessary. Smart Strike might not be a super powerful Steel type move (70 BP) but it is STAB. This thing is a good late game cleaner. It basically gets Moxie with a base 181 Attack and the same defensive typing as Ferrothorn. Buyer beware though, this thing is as fragile as a twig on the special aside with a mere 32 SpDef, so don't try to switch it in on Special Attackers. Not sure where to tier this right now, it's rather niche oriented if you ask me.

[NickCrash]

I think it's safe to consider all UB in Ubers for now. Beast Boost seems an OP ability to begin with.

Edit: Possible to remain in OU: Nihilego , Celesteela , Guzzlord

[Swampellow]

At the moment the only UB that I can see being in OU is Celesteel, because even though it does get beast boost, it also has the most "balanced" (using that word lightly) as it doesn't have any one stat overwhelming all the others; and it has the same defensive typing as skarmory, the with its main recovery being leech seed, which means that it is able to be beaten down relatively easily.

Guzzlord has possibility of being OU, purely because it's similar in stats to Blissey/Chansey, if not slightly worse, as its typing puts it at more of a disadvantage than they do, and it is also lacking any real proper form of recovery. Even with max defense it only reaches 225, putting it at a disadvantage in comparison to other fat HP mons for it, who either have a higher max def/spdef stat or similar stats with reliable recovery.

Pretty much all the other UBs are likely to be Ubers as they have either insane bulk and a decent attacking stat or usable speed and an insane attacking stat, which when combined with beast boost create problems very quickly, as its still easy for them to kill things without their boosts, for the most part.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Swampellow

[Marcello]

At the moment the only UB that I can see being in OU is Celesteel, because even though it does get beast boost, it also has the most "balanced" (using that word lightly) as it doesn't have any one stat overwhelming all the others; and it has the same defensive typing as skarmory, the with its main recovery being leech seed, which means that it is able to be beaten down relatively easily.

Guzzlord has possibility of being OU, purely because it's similar in stats to Blissey/Chansey, if not slightly worse, as its typing puts it at more of a disadvantage than they do, and it is also lacking any real proper form of recovery. Even with max defense it only reaches 225, putting it at a disadvantage in comparison to other fat HP mons for it, who either have a higher max def/spdef stat or similar stats with reliable recovery.

Pretty much all the other UBs are likely to be Ubers as they have either insane bulk and a decent attacking stat or usable speed and an insane attacking stat, which when combined with beast boost create problems very quickly, as its still easy for them to kill things without their boosts, for the most part.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought Nihilego's stats & moveset were both not that spectacular either, or am I thinking of a wrong UB? Honestly I hope I am because I'd love a super powerful poison type.

[Swampellow]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought Nihilego's stats & moveset were both not that spectacular either, or am I thinking of a wrong UB? Honestly I hope I am because I'd love a super powerful poison type.

Oh rip me, actually forgot about that one, I haven't actually looked over that one yet then, perhaps I will do so now.

[Deleted User]

Yup, Greninja still needs to be banned.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Oh rip me, actually forgot about that one, I haven't actually looked over that one yet then, perhaps I will do so now.

It's mostly specially orientated with decent speed as it seems. It has access to T-Spikes and SR so... offensive Setter? It's pretty frail in the Defense side though it's got respectable enough an HP base it might take a neuatral hit, but 47 is mad low for a Def stat. It's 103 BS notably outpaces the "100Base speed" zone of things ((notably as a rock type allowing it to outspeed Mega Zards.))

In short, it's not Ubers material either imo... since I don't think it's quuuuite powerful enough but I really dunno jsut how well t can benefit from Beast Boost tbh... it doesn't never as much as the others cuase it's SpAtk stats is respectablly good but it's not like wel... you've seen the other ones LOL.

[Marcello]

Honestly I think Celesteela has alot of viability purely because, with it's balanced stats and Beast Boost, it could run a lot of different builds, with what, 4 different options for what stat gets boosted when it KOs stuff? It could be pretty unpredictable.

[Pocky]

Glass Jelly/Nihilego

Finally! A poison legendary. Let's take a look.
Ability: Beast Boost
HP: 109
Atk: 53
Def: 47
SpAtk: 127
SpDef: 131
Spe: 103

Interesting spread stat. It can reliably eat hits from any spatker, such as primarina surprisingly. With 109 hp and 131 sp def, that is definitely not anything to laugh at. Additionally, it gets the moves Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. With 103 bst speed, that ain't bad for a lead. Being able to utilize Power Gem and Sludge Wave for stab will also be very fun. Additionally, like a lot of pokemon, it gets access to the Screen Moves, which means that Nihilego can also run dual screens. However, there are some drawbacks. While 131 sp def and 109 hp is very tasty, the old form of recovery it's able to use reliably would be leftovers. You can not also run nihilego as a set up sweeper, unfortunately, with no stat boosting moves other than substitute.

Overall, I foresee Nihilego mostly being used as a lead. While it's not klefki tier or any of that jazz, it effectively provides its own niche.

Final verdict? At least BL, pranksters can still run wild, magic bounce (damn u m-sableye >:[), plus some weakness to common attacking types.

[pyrromanis]

For Nihilego this is what i tried:

Nihilego @ Air Balloon
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave/ Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes / Grass Knot

Nihilego is pretty cool right now cause it counters most of the Tapus! It outspeeds them all except Tapu Koko, threatens them with STAB SE Sludge Wave and with the natural high Sp. def and HP can take any non SE hit from them (except Bulu which is physical). With that spread I made, its Speed is higher than its Sp. att meaning that whenever it KOs something it becomes faster! That can be handy cause it makes it harder for your opponent to revenge kill it with something that is naturaly faster.

[NickCrash]

Nihilego can also work with Reflect and Lefties. This way it reduces the incoming damage not only for itself (fixing the terrible Def), but also for the team, providing a team-member with turns to setup and sweep. Lefties are there for recovery given its 131 SpD stat will tank some hits.

I am curious how Intimidate affects Beast Boost in physical attackers. Do they boost their speed after the Intimidate, or is the original stat what counts?

Similarly, if you have a mixed attacker (Celesteela) where both your Atk and SpA are equal, do both get the boost?

[Swampellow]

Nihilego can also work with Reflect and Lefties. This way it reduces the incoming damage not only for itself (fixing the terrible Def), but also for the team, providing a team-member with turns to setup and sweep. Lefties are there for recovery given its 131 SpD stat will tank some hits.

I am curious how Intimidate affects Beast Boost in physical attackers. Do they boost their speed after the Intimidate, or is the original stat what counts?

Similarly, if you have a mixed attacker (Celesteela) where both your Atk and SpA are equal, do both get the boost?

Well from what I've tested at least, Beast Boost goes off the actual stat itself. So for example, if you have a defensive (with defense as its highest stat) Celesteela, if it knocks out a mon then it's defense stat will go up. Guzzlord, when I tested it with max hp and attack had its attack boosted (obviously because ago cannot be boosted. So basically Beast Boost boosted whichever stat on the mon is highest, not whichever base stat is highest.

Also Z moves are kind of insane, I was using a flygon(woooo DD) and it was in against a max def Skarmory at about 80%, flygon was at +2 and I used my z move attack (I had the option for z move dragon dance, which I think just gives a bigger boost) and it annihilated the Skarm from where it was at.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Swampellow

[NickCrash]

Well from what I've tested at least, Beast Boost goes off the actual stat itself. So for example, if you have a defensive (with defense as its highest stat) Celesteela, if it knocks out a mon then it's defense stat will go up. Guzzlord, when I tested it with max hp and attack had its attack boosted (obviously because ago cannot be boosted. So basically Beast Boost boosted whichever stat on the mon is highest, not whichever base stat is highest.

I know it factors in the EVs, IVs and Nature. What I'm asking is whether it also factors in stat buffs, eg Baton Pass Speed Boosts, and debuffs like Intimidate.

[Swampellow]

I know it factors in the EVs, IVs and Nature. What I'm asking is whether it also factors in stat buffs, eg Baton Pass Speed Boosts, and debuffs like Intimidate.

Ah, I get what you mean. If it does then that could make it much more interesting Edited November 19, 2016 by Swampellow

[Deleted User]

Phermosa needs to go.

Also Genesect

[Jmanultrax1]

phermosa has way to much coverage and variety. She can run life orb, band, scarf, etc. A simple set to sweep is that she has high attack (adamant nature) with high speed (which is already high enough) give her a scarf she outspeeds most mons and gets her attack bosted every time she knocks one out. She cant stay in ou. she too strong for it.

That setup I said above is just one of the many builds you can give her. She has so much more builds

[Deleted User]

Ice Beam and High Jump Kick are going to be on most sets.

Lunge and Focus Blast are also some other possibilities.

[Ironbound]

I steadfastly refuse to play competitive mons with this generation, but even so, I can't resist teambuilding:

Celesteela

Steel/Flying

Abilities: Beast Boost

HP: 97

Atk: 101

Def: 103

SpAtk: 107

SpDef: 101

Spe: 61

Notable moves:

Physical: Heavy Slam, Iron Head, Gyro Ball, Acrobatics, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Seed Bomb, Flame Charge, Smack Down, Explosion

Special: Flash Cannon, Air Slash, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Giga Drain, Solar Beam

Status/Support: Toxic, Leech Seed, Ingrain, Autotomize, etc

All the UBs except this have lopsided stats, with at least one abysmal defensive stat. They all also have questionable typings from a competitive aspect, and likewise most of them have one brokenly huge stat to boot.

Not celesteela. Great bulk, good mixed attacking stats, (nice design and concept too), and a wide movepool on both sides of the spectrum which it can use well. (Lack of Roost hurts, but Leech Seed and Giga Drain, or RestTalk, make up for it somewhat.)

It's also among the heaviest Pokemon, if not the heaviest Pokemon, at about one metric ton, and STAB Heavy Slam from this thing will hurt. Its sole issue is speed, which, compared to most alola mons, isn't that bad at all (ties with Ttar), and it even has Autotomize to fix that issue. (And it can get away with using Heavy Slam on Autotomize sets, since this thing is so heavy that most non-uber targets that are not steel types themselves are likely to be hit for equal or more damage than Iron Head anyway!)

Given that it has one of the best defensive typings in the game (with 96% of Skarmory's Physical Bulk and 50% more special bulk) and good attacking stats even if the speed is iffy, it seems like it'll be a bulky attacker in OU, and can even try a hand at being a wall of sorts similar to ferro, but better, with a damaging Giga Drain and Leech Seed.

Also one must never forget Beast Boost. This thing is easily the most versatile abuser of that ability, as it can give itself a boost in either defense or attacking stat depending on its build.

Physical build might be better than Special since Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Acrobatics gives better coverage in 3 moves than the Special build has in 4 with STABs, Fire move and Giga Drain. Not to say that's not viable, hell, it can even run Life Orb with Beast Boost Moxie/SpecialMoxie and go a long way.

Likely sets:

1. Special Bulky Rocketship:

Celesteela @ Leftovers

EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD

EVs: 248 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spdef

Modest/Bold Nature

- Air Slash

- Flash Cannon

- Giga Drain

- Fire Blast/Flamethrower

Praise the eco-friendly bamboo-UFO

2. Mixed Bulky 'Glue'/Synergy Wall:

Celesteela @ Leftovers

Impish, 248 HP / 16 Atk / 44 Def / 200 SDef

- Heavy Slam

- Earthquake

- Seed Bomb

- Leech Seed/Fire Blast

Does a number on Ferrothorn and Scizor etc with fire blast even with an impish nature

3. Ever been hit in the face by a rocketship?

Celesteela @ Leftovers

Ability: Beast Boost

EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Autotomize

- Heavy Slam/Iron Head

- Earthquake

- Fire Blast/Stone Edge

The speed EVs outspeed mega Lopunny after an Autotomize. This thing is so heavy that even after an Autotomize you're usually hitting most things for 80BP damage or more with Heavy Slam, but Iron Head is always there.

4. This is why you do not fight a 30 foot tall rocketship

Celesteela @ Assault Vest

Adamant - Beast Boost

172 HP, 252 Attack, 84 Speed

-Heavy Slam

-Earthquake

-Seed Bomb

-Fire Blast / Explosion

84 EVs in speed creep standard Magnezone. The rest is self-explanatory.

And nah, I think that if two stats are numerically equal, beast boost picks a random one to boost. Rather like Download.

[Noir]

Ice Beam and High Jump Kick are going to be on most sets.

Lunge and Focus Blast are also some other possibilities.

>Lunge

I mean Jeri, the thing has U-Turn so it can just get out of there while doing massive chunks so no real point in running that....

[Deleted User]

>Lunge

I mean Jeri, the thing has U-Turn so it can just get out of there while doing massive chunks so no real point in running that....

It always lowers opponents attack by 1, like intimidate, is more powerful than U-Turn. and maybe you don't want to switch out. It's better than X-Scissor.

[Noir]

It always lowers opponents attack by 1, like intimidate, is more powerful than U-Turn. and maybe you don't want to switch out. It's better than X-Scissor.

Well, sure. Of course, I just speak from experience. U-Turn/HJK/Ice Beam/HP Ghost (for stray Aegis) is currently the norm now, but the current OU meta also isn't that Bug weak, if the opposite, which makes an additional Bug coverage move rather redundant.

[Nova]

252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Bewear: 344-408 (77.4 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just... just this.