Reborn Tiers and Metagame

[Kamina]

How mature of you.

keep flaming i am sure it will make your point look more valid

ツ

[FraRPetO]

crep 4 life

those who copy his team aren't as cool as crep

[Dark Desire]

Um... Cant we like have a meeting about evasion to settle wether it's going to be banned or not? Cause right now this arguing/flaming here is going to get this thread locked/other threads dealing with the current meta .-.

[Vex]

Considering any of the people who argue for keeping evasion in Reborn don't have competetive battling experience most of these posts are just silly. The point Kamina is trying to make is that without evasion Crep is incredibly easy to beat, the number of times I've used Taunt, Whirlwind or Roar on his +1 Driftblim and missed is just stupid. You shouldn't have to build a team in order to counter evasion seeing as there is no logical reasoning for actually keeping it the game. If you miss the first phazing move and he keeps on setting up then you're more than likely going to miss the second. Being +2 or +4 in speed, depending on how many times he got to use Agility before baton passing it off, he's going to outspeed you anyway, so the moment you switch into Politoed to Perish Song he can bp into Mr.Mime and force you to switch out now because the clock is ticking on your Politoed but not his Mr Mime. Switch into Skarm to Whirlwind and he switches into Espeon, even if you predict him to do so at +2 evasion your Brave Bird will probably miss. Once he switches into Smeargle and Ingrain's it's basically game over at this point because you now have no chance of phazing him out anyway.

I'm not just raging on about crep's BP team, it's the fact that the only reason he has a chance of beating anyone with it on the ladder is because of evasion. Sure, you could argue that using Haze is effective against the evasion and even his BP team (although without the evasion it's not exactly hard to beat), but with the lack of good Pokemon that are actually able to use it without getting rid of a vital move on your set, it's pointless. Even more so when it comes to battling a good player who doesn't use evasion and you're stuck with this pointless move on your set when you could have something very useful like Toxic or Protect. When you come up against some random Double Team, Sand Veil, Bright Powder Garchomp and you're not carrying Perish Song or Haze, there is nothing you can do except hope for a chance to hit, which at +6 is not going to happen. The reasons for getting rid of evasion in the normal tiers are very simple and make complete sense, but I'm yet to see anyone actually explain to me why we still have it here? It just gives a bad player a slight glimmer of hope that they could actually beat one of the top players because of pure luck, of course not to say that Pokemon isn't full of luck in the first place but evasion is a whole new level of it. Substitute + Sand Veil is absolutely rediculous on it's own having 25% evasion in Sand. It's so easy to abuse when you all you have to do is set up a sub and hope that they miss, which they obviously will eventually, but the thing that makes it even worse is that after they've set up the sub and you need to break the sub or you've lost the game. You're obviously going to miss and lose the game and it's simply because the other player is using a luck based ability. Removing evasion is one of the smartest choices you could make for the tiers at the moment and I'd also like to hear a worthy point that isn't just arguing for the sake of wanting Reborn's tiers to be different from other servers. Also saying that, "If PO didn't want evasion in the game they wouldn't put it in in the first place" is almost laughable dude, really. Every multiplayer game needs balance changes but seeing as there is no real way to nerf Pokemon because Gamefreak don't really give a shit, they just get banned to a higher tier.
If it sounds like I'm complaining that's because I am, having evasion in the current meta in abilities or boosting moves is just absolutely rediculous and you seriously need to think it through. The people that are arguing against evasion actually know what they are talking about because they are some of the only competetive battlers on this server. Listen to them..

[Kamina]

Well i am tired of all these threads closing because there is someone who cant come up with any points and decides that if he/she flames than they all of a sudden have more validity. I will ignore anyone who flames unless they can reword what they are saying in a more respectful manner. Thread should not be closed because one person is too immature.

[Shanco]

Basically what the man DD said.

Anywho, in the hopes of helping put this increasingly needless argument to bed, I'm siding with Erick / Roo / Owen, and here's why.

- Rain isn't a necessity, per se, to counter evasion. It might make things a bit easier thanks to a mustachioed phoenix flying around, but even then, the disaster can be averted.

- you're acting like +6 evasion brings a 100 accuracy move down to 0 accuracy, which obviously isn't true. You still will have your fair share of hits, ways to boost your accuracy, and other things that all in all don't really let evasion become the beast of the meta that it's reputed to be.

- Stuff like Aerial Ace, Magical Leaf, etc. Hello STAB Technician! That and boosts, if played right, will help shamelessly wipe out the sub as the opponent will be so concerned about stat-ups that you may be able to sneak in a sub of your own.

- I probably win way more often against da crepsta than any of you here, and the key to that is one word: Persistence. You keep up the pressure, and eventually that team will crack.

- so there's this move called Clear Smog. I hear it's pretty good. 50 power, never-miss move, it's swish. You know Roserade? Not sure if Roserade can learn it, but hey, why not check it out?

- And this leads me to my final point for now: just stop it before it gets worse. You'll probably be able to spot a Passing team from a mile away. You think that there'd be something fishy with a Blaziken, Lopunny or Jolteon lead, or something that gets the Speed up and passes it away. And if you don't have something that can scare away those Pokemon, then...your team might need some help.

That's all from me for now. I'm not trying to play peacekeeper or minimod here, but in all seriousness, this will be the 4th thread in, like, 3 months closed because of these petty arguments. Evasion is part of the core that makes Reborn what it is. I don't know if I can stress this enough. Seriously.

And with that, see you later tonight, maybe.

[The Fush]

The people that are arguing against evasion actually know what they are talking about because they are some of the only competetive battlers on this server. Listen to them..

I know this isn't really directed at me, but just in case:

• I'm not a professional player in the slightest. I just tried to talk about some things to consider when talking about how certain things outclass and counter others.
• I wasn't trying to flame in any way or form, and sorry if I sounded like that.
• I acknowledge that the majority of people talking about evasion are professional players. I just find it annoying that the majority of points against banning evasion don't bring any sort of point in particular, leaving the for-evasion banning people look dominant.

[Kamina]

Basically what the man DD said.

Anywho, in the hopes of helping put this increasingly needless argument to bed, I'm siding with Erick / Roo / Owen, and here's why.

- Rain isn't a necessity, per se, to counter evasion. It might make things a bit easier thanks to a mustachioed phoenix flying around, but even then, the disaster can be averted.

- you're acting like +6 evasion brings a 100 accuracy move down to 0 accuracy, which obviously isn't true. You still will have your fair share of hits, ways to boost your accuracy, and other things that all in all don't really let evasion become the beast of the meta that it's reputed to be.

- Stuff like Aerial Ace, Magical Leaf, etc. Hello STAB Technician! That and boosts, if played right, will help shamelessly wipe out the sub as the opponent will be so concerned about stat-ups that you may be able to sneak in a sub of your own.

- I probably win way more often against da crepsta than any of you here, and the key to that is one word: Persistence. You keep up the pressure, and eventually that team will crack.

- so there's this move called Clear Smog. I hear it's pretty good. 50 power, never-miss move, it's swish. You know Roserade? Not sure if Roserade can learn it, but hey, why not check it out?

- And this leads me to my final point for now: just stop it before it gets worse. You'll probably be able to spot a Passing team from a mile away. You think that there'd be something fishy with a Blaziken, Lopunny or Jolteon lead, or something that gets the Speed up and passes it away. And if you don't have something that can scare away those Pokemon, then...your team might need some help.

That's all from me for now. I'm not trying to play peacekeeper or minimod here, but in all seriousness, this will be the 4th thread in, like, 3 months closed because of these petty arguments. Evasion is part of the core that makes Reborn what it is. I don't know if I can stress this enough. Seriously.

And with that, see you later tonight, maybe.

Plus 6 evasion makes 100 percent accuracy moves the same as sheer cold? you would be extremely luck to hit 2 times in a row

Too bad clear smog cant go through subs

"And this leads me to my final point for now: just stop it before it gets worse. You'll probably be able to spot a Passing team from a mile away. You think that there'd be something fishy with a Blaziken, Lopunny or Jolteon lead, or something that gets the Speed up and passes it away. And if you don't have something that can scare away those Pokemon, then...your team might need some help"

http://pastebin.com/4QXh56VX

Pretty much it seems like you do not follow you own advice. But i don't blame you at lest you know (deep down inside) that they are not viable. (yes my name was ᶘ ᵒᴥᵒᶅ)

And could you explain how evasion makes reborn what it is? i have already refuted it but you still seem to repeat it.

[chasedawg98]

How on earth is not following Smogon's tiers one of Reborn's biggest appeals. That is the worst thing about reborn. I agree in keeping pokemon such as garchomp and ST chandelure, ect. because they are not game breaking and can be easily countered. However, this whole mess with evasion and the admin being too damn stubborn to ban it and start throwing out mutes or bans every time somebody tries to have a mature discussion about it. This has to end. Evasion is literally unfair and requires tactics to counter it that are far from viable in the OU metagame. It requires you to run certain pokemon or moves on every team just to counter this one facet of the metagame. That to me is the definition of a game breaking aspect of a game and taints the metagame. Almost everyone on Reborn (except Crep) agrees that evasion teams are unfair, damn near uncounterable, and require no skill to use. They are a horrible representation of the metagame and make it ridiculously unbalanced. A change needs to come about. I would like any authority to reads this to PM me so I can hear your thoughts and we can have a civilized discussion about this GLARING issue. Thank you.

[Neo]

Here's a quick question before I make a long ass response when I get home:

If you've (and the majority of your pals) have made it to #1 peak on the ladder without evasion being a huge issue, why bring it up now? Did you just have your ass handed to you by crep or something? Reborn as agreed to leave evasion the way it is because it isn't an issue.

Am I saying that we have to wait until everyone on the ladder runs Minimize Drifblim to act? No. What I AM saying is that Evasion isn't some horrible issue that makes playing on Reborn unbearable.

However, if you want to make a thread, with an intelligent, detailed OP, then I'll (and the community) be more inclined to listen.

Chase, most of Reborn doesn't agree with banning evasion. So let's not put words in people's mouths.

(And what's with this scouting Ryan shit? That's creepy as fuck. Be a man and come up to him outright)

[Kamina]

We used rain team. We don't think that forcing people to use rain teams to make it to the top is healthy for the meta game. And again if you asked people who were actually in the server if they liked evasion most of them would say no.

If it was not horrible i would not be making a big deal out of it.

And that was a battle between me and Ryan.

[James-Sensei]

Evasion is pretty cheap as in that it leaves the game to an unfair advantage, and can be easily set up, leaving the opposing player with little chance of winning. So a player with evasion could easily beat a player with true skill, by setting up with evasion and completely destroy them. Sure their are counters but in order to combat them you need something really specific to counter evasion. And with the no accuracy moves well with +x defenses those won't do anything to help. Haze is an option but not many good pokemon carry this move.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Anime Master James

[Neo]

We used rain team. We don't think that forcing people to use rain teams to make it to the top is healthy for the meta game. And again if you asked people who were actually in the server if they liked evasion most of them would say no.

If it was not horrible i would not be making a big deal out of it.

And that was a battle between me and Ryan.

>Implying randoms from Smogon and Beta represent the opinion of the Reborn community

[Kamina]

>>implying most of the people in reborn play competitively

[The Fush]

Plus 6 evasion makes 100 percent accuracy moves the same as sheer cold? you would be extremely luck to hit 2 times in a row

Too bad clear smog cant go through subs

"And this leads me to my final point for now: just stop it before it gets worse. You'll probably be able to spot a Passing team from a mile away. You think that there'd be something fishy with a Blaziken, Lopunny or Jolteon lead, or something that gets the Speed up and passes it away. And if you don't have something that can scare away those Pokemon, then...your team might need some help"

http://pastebin.com/4QXh56VX

Pretty much it seems like you do not follow you own advice. But i don't blame you at lest you know (deep down inside) that they are not viable. (yes my name was ᶘ ᵒᴥᵒᶅ)

And could you explain how evasion makes reborn what it is? i have already refuted it but you still seem to repeat it.

First of all, just to point out, you might want to sound a bit more polite in your posts. You're making yourself a hypocrite by wording your reply in a manner that implies flaming.

Second of all, you expect us to believe the whole story because of one log? I doubt one battle account's for Ryan's entire argument, let alone you trashing it because of that. That log is a pathetic excuse, if it's the only evidence you got. Is saying he did bad at one battle implying that he lost every other battle he had with someone like crep?

Third of all, stop trying to find every single excuse possible to shut down his arguments. Don't think that mentioning Substitute is going to entirely shut down Clear Smog for what it is. There's this thing here called strategy, as far as I'm concerned. Why do you think the Reborn tiers are as it is? Because strategy and moves have been taken into account and talked about to provide accurate reasons, instead of just letting one word describe everything.

Your entire evasion argument comes down to finding one word or counter to something that can stop evasion.

"Taunt---------> Can be evaded and/or bped to espeon which almost every evasion team has

Perish song --------> Taunted or baton passed to Mr.Mime

magical leaf/ariel ace -------> never going to help outside evasion and probably wont even break a sub

Aura Sphere------------> Bp to drifblim"

If you're going to bash on every that stands in the way of evasion, care to elaborate on your reasons rather then typing a sentence to explain your reasoning.

I don't care how good you are at battling in the PO ladder, if it won't help you explain your arguments. If you have experience on these things, share it.

[Neo]

>>implying most of the people in reborn play competitively

>Implying you're an authority on competitive battling

>Implying that most of Reborn's community didn't competitively battle at one time

I use PO strictly for the teambuilder and chat. I don't know about you, but I build for the World Championships and GTS battling.

[Kamina]

First of all, just to point out, you might want to sound a bit more polite in your posts. You're making yourself a hypocrite by wording your reply in a manner that implies flaming.

Second of all, you expect us to believe the whole story because of one log? I doubt one battle account's for Ryan's entire argument, let alone you trashing it because of that. That log is a pathetic excuse, if it's the only evidence you got. Is saying he did bad at one battle implying that he lost every other battle he had with someone like crep?

Third of all, stop trying to find every single excuse possible to shut down his arguments. Don't think that mentioning Substitute is going to entirely shut down Clear Smog for what it is. There's this thing here called strategy, as far as I'm concerned. Why do you think the Reborn tiers are as it is? Because strategy and moves have been taken into account and talked about to provide accurate reasons, instead of just letting one word describe everything.

Your entire evasion argument comes down to finding one word or counter to something that can stop evasion.

"Taunt---------> Can be evaded and/or bped to espeon which almost every evasion team has

Perish song --------> Taunted or baton passed to Mr.Mime

magical leaf/ariel ace -------> never going to help outside evasion and probably wont even break a sub

Aura Sphere------------> Bp to drifblim"

If you're going to bash on every that stands in the way of evasion, care to elaborate on your reasons rather then typing a sentence to explain your reasoning.

I don't care how good you are at battling in the PO ladder, if it won't help you explain your arguments. If you have experience on these things, share it.

I am sorry if it sounded like i was flaming i definitely did not intend for it to be that way. That log was only used because Ryan C said (Paraphrasing) that "If you do not have something to scare away those pokes than you might need some help. It just seems a bit hypocritical that he does not follow his own advice and i see nothing wrong in pointing that out(though i do agree i should have worded it differently). And that one log was only to prove that he did not follow his own guide (though it was not the first time)

And substitute does unfortunately shut down clear smog as much as one would wish it did not and every evasion team runs one so i don't see anything wrong with pointing out flaws. (every bp team has sub in it) Also just because the tiers are they way it is does not mean it is without flaw.

And i think i have explained my self clearly. Rain is only viable counter to evasion abusers. you mentioned taunt leads but if opponent knows that you are going to taunt they will switch into espeon. Of corse you can predict it but they only way i see that is having a chand in team and by than your only building a counter to a specific team

@ Neo i dont see how that implies that i am the Authority in competitive battling and if they are no longer competitive than they dont know much about the recent meta. as for last part not bad.

[The Fush]

I am sorry if it sounded like i was flaming i definitely did not intend for it to be that way. That log was only used because Ryan C said (Paraphrasing) that "If you do not have something to scare away those pokes than you might need some help. It just seems a bit hypocritical that he does not follow his own advice and i see nothing wrong in pointing that out(though i do agree i should have worded it differently). And that one log was only to prove that he did not follow his own guide (though it was not the first time)

And substitute does unfortunately shut down clear smog as much as one would wish it did not and every evasion team runs one so i don't see anything wrong with pointing out flaws. (every bp team has sub in it) Also just because the tiers are they way it is does not mean it is without flaw.

And i think i have explained my self clearly. Rain is only viable counter to evasion abusers. you mentioned taunt leads but if opponent knows that you are going to taunt they will switch into espeon. Of corse you can predict it but they only way i see that is having a chand in team and by than your only building a counter to a specific team

Probably going to elaborate more on my reply when I'm awake, but for now, I'll say this:

If you noticed me talking about the taunt leads earlier, you must've realized I said that like how they can predict your taunt lead, it's possible to also predict their magic bounce. It's essentially a vice versa, so I don't really see what the point of that was. That, and you can always opt for more of a surprise taunt instead.

That, and don't go assuming rain is the only counter to evasion. Sand has it's own niches, and the techniques you listed as counterable earlier you didn't elaborate much on. If you go into a bit more detail about why things like taunt and clear smog are useless, I'll probably type up more of a reply than this. For example, substitute may be a counter to clear smog, but what I meant was that there's no reason you can't predict what THEY'LL do, if you really think that they can predict what YOU'RE going to do.

Also, personal belief here, but I don't really think any tier system is without flaws. There will always be flaws in this tier system, as with Smogon and many others too.

While I'm at it, one of the many reasons why Clear Skies wasn't implemented until not so long ago was because non-weather teams were, well, RATHER capable of countering weather without dedicating an entire team to stopping it. I believe evasion has more holes in it than weather, and therefore, can also be exploited, with less effort.

[Noivy]

-

Edited September 14, 2016 by Noivy

[Kamina]

I feel the need to elaborate where i stand a little bit more. First of all i am not whining because Double Team/Minimize is preventing me from winning. I was still able to make it to top 2 without having any problems with evasion. The reason why i hate it so much is because it is poisoning out meta game and forcing competitive players to run Drizzle in order to counter. And to people who think this is a publicity stunt (lmao) its not. More people have started hating me from expressing my opinons about the metagame than liked me. As for the amount of people who abuse it i don't see it being much of an issue because as long as someone does than everyone will always have to prepare for it if they want to play here competitively.

now @ baka

1. What is a surprise taunt

2. What does sand have. How can i elaborate on clear smog any more? Sub counters it period. And taunt does not have perfect accuracy so you cant call it as a check to evasion.

3. What is you bases for your argument that CS has a harder time dealing with Weather than non rain team does on Evasion?

[Joker]

>Implying you're an authority on competitive battling

>Implying that most of Reborn's community didn't competitively battle at one time

I use PO strictly for the teambuilder and chat. I don't know about you, but I build for the World Championships and GTS battling.

"At one time."

Past tense, eh. Anyway,

First of all, just to point out, you might want to sound a bit more polite in your posts. You're making yourself a hypocrite by wording your reply in a manner that implies flaming.

Second of all, you expect us to believe the whole story because of one log? I doubt one battle account's for Ryan's entire argument, let alone you trashing it because of that. That log is a pathetic excuse, if it's the only evidence you got. Is saying he did bad at one battle implying that he lost every other battle he had with someone like crep?

Third of all, stop trying to find every single excuse possible to shut down his arguments. Don't think that mentioning Substitute is going to entirely shut down Clear Smog for what it is. There's this thing here called strategy, as far as I'm concerned. Why do you think the Reborn tiers are as it is? Because strategy and moves have been taken into account and talked about to provide accurate reasons, instead of just letting one word describe everything.

Your entire evasion argument comes down to finding one word or counter to something that can stop evasion.

"Taunt---------> Can be evaded and/or bped to espeon which almost every evasion team has

Perish song --------> Taunted or baton passed to Mr.Mime

magical leaf/ariel ace -------> never going to help outside evasion and probably wont even break a sub

Aura Sphere------------> Bp to drifblim"

If you're going to bash on every that stands in the way of evasion, care to elaborate on your reasons rather then typing a sentence to explain your reasoning.

I don't care how good you are at battling in the PO ladder, if it won't help you explain your arguments. If you have experience on these things, share it.

I'll try to be elaborate.

Taunt- No doubt, a very useful way to counter set up pokemon, whether they use Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, or even Minimize. At first you would think it would be the perfect solution for countering evasion and the like. It can go behind subs, and usually fast pokemon carry it. However, with a team like crep's, or anyone who uses BP for that matter, it is extremely easy to just laugh taunt off and send out an Espeon, or Xatu. Now, I know you're thinking. "Just see that coming and counter that by just attacking instead of taunting." My question to that is. Just how long do you think that will work? Eventually, people would wise up, and play more carefully. It's only natural that with evasion counters , the people abusing it would "evolve" if you will. Sableye or Whimsicott would be the ideal lead for Taunt. But, they are obvious, and Magic Bounce makes them useless.

Perish Song- This is one of the best way to counter evasion, at first glance. There are 18 pokemon that can learn Perish Song, among them are; Jynx, Lapras, Politoed, Misdreavus, Smoochum, Celebi, Swablu, Altaria, Kricketune, Arceus, Meloetta, Seel, Gastly, Cubone, Igglybuff, Marill, and Murkrow. Of those, only about 4 would be viable in Ou. But since we're looking at the tiers as a whole, I guess all these guys would suffice. Despite their tiering, a lot of them can't even take a decent hit, and I doubt anyone here can honestly say they would use Igglybuff, or the bulk of these first evo pokemon. Murkrow, getting Prankster, is obviously the better of the pre-evo pokemon shown here, and would probably be the go to guy for the lower tiers. Anyway, since we're bringing strategy into this, all the evasion abuser has to do is take out your Perish songer, and looking at this list, that shouldn't be a task proving too hard. Once the singer is out for the count, they are free to boost all the want, and well, you know what happens next. Moving on.

Never missing moves- Moves like Magical Leaf, and Aerial Ace, Aura Sphere, etc. I see where you're coming from, I really do. But there is a problem. Most are too weak. Now, you're thinking; "Just add it in with Technician." Let's take a head count of the pokemon that get technician. I counted 14. They are as follows; Meowth, Persian, Mime Jr., Mr. Mime, Scyther, Scizor, Breloom, Roserade, Smeargle, Hitmontop, Ambipom, Minccino, and Cinccino. Disregarding the pre-evos, we'll look at how many have never missing moves.

Scizor: Aerial Ace.

Cinccino: Swift.

Roserade: Magical Leaf.

Hitmontop: None.

Ambipom: Swift, Aerial Ace.

Persian: Faint Attack, Swift, Aerial Ace.

Breloom: None.

Mr. Mime: Magical Leaf, Aerial Ace.

Smeargle: Swift, Aerial Ace, Aura Sphere, Faint Attack, Magical Leaf.

Kricketune: Bide, Aerial Ace.

With that covered. Since Driftblim is the main pokemon causing evasion complaints here, we'll base this on him for now. Of all those moves, only Faint Attack could potentially break the sub. Now, how many of us have actually used Faint Attack on PO? I would like to assume, not many, if any at all. Of course, the other moves would probably be more beneficial against Moody abusers, but I personally don't see that much wrong with moody considering it can troll the user just as much as the foe. Anyway, give those a looksie. Moving on.

I have seen countless people lose to crep and others solely because of evasion. To name a few people; Kamina, Rupe, Edge, Brave, Ryan, Mori, and even myself. Every one of those people, except Ryan, have complained in some way or fashion about evasion, I am no exception. However, it is no doubt, causing problems in the community, and as a community, I would assume it would be best to get rid of things that cause disturbances, logically of course. Now if you want logs, I wouldn't mind watching battles of crep's, and even making one of those cheap teams myself. Whatever it takes, really. Only keeping evasion simply because; "We want to be different," is just as childish as you're claiming the people who support its banning are. All I'm saying as it should be highly considered, not to copy smogon, or any other community. In any case, I hope this was good enough. :/

[Noivy]

Forcing "Competitive" people to use Drizzle? I single handedly beat an evasion built team with my own Solar Armory team by assaulting it before it had the opportunity to set up.

Mate, I can tell you that Drizzle is not the only way. Look around. Find creative outlets. Try something new. Who knows? It might actually WORK.

[Kamina]

Could you give more specific examples?

Also thank you touma for expanding on what i said earlier :3

[slant]

Kamina and Touma have already done a good job listing why the aforementioned evasion counters don't really work but for argument's sake, let's suppose they do.

A high ranking player usually gets something like a +2, -30 ladder point spread meaning that if he wants to break even on average, he needs to have a 93.75% chance of winning. Playing with a rain team is the only way to achieve this kind of consistency. The other evasion counters do not. Most "never miss" moves are not viable unless we're talking about hurricane and thunder. Touma already went there so I won't. Playing mind games and "predicting" with taunt and perish song basically boils down to just guessing, which yields a win ratio that is well below the 93.75% threshold I am looking for. On to the next point, if you have a surprise user of these two moves, yes it'll work the first time your opponent sees it, but after that he will be on to your tricks. If your strategy of beating evasion is using weird movesets that your opponent won't expect, then in the long run once your opponent catches on, you'll still be losing points.

Overall yes there are CONSISTENT counters to evasion, namely haze and thunder/hurricane which basically require that you run a rain team to beat evasion. All of the other 'counters' listed are either not viable (e.g. technician aerial ace) or do not yield consistent results (play guessing games with taunt and perish song, taunt through evasion). If I have to run a rain team to beat evasion, then that's an overcentralized metagame which is why stuff gets banished from the tier in the first place.

[Melody]

Am I the only one who runs Haze on almost every team because of this? Got to be honest, That is the only reason I have been able to defeat Crep countless times. And by the way, That is only on one of my teams out of many. Whoever said it was 'Just Crep' is a pathological liar first of all. I've seen it on Rahul's copied Crep team and a few other people who have been effortlessly trying to copy his team. At least 5 times outside of Crep have I fought this and it's getting rather annoying and guess what? Surprise, Suprise, I'm not in AO, So clearly it isn't just 1 specific group of people who are wanting to win considering I don't even ladder and yet I STILL face these things like Clefairy and Clefable with minimize and cosmic power mixed with sub, Making it nearly impossible to kill with Hazards, Regular moves, or the commonly used pokemon Conkeldurr or Speed boost Blaze. After it subs and goes straight into Minimize and I fail to hit through the sub cause of the +2 boost, I'm completely screwed because it stalls out my moves, I had to change Hi Jump Kick to Double Kick, And guess what? Surprise surprise, It didn't hit for anything. We're literally sitting here having to change our teams because these people are copying Crep or using their 'edited original version' of his entire team by just switching maybe 3 pokemon entirely? Yes, It is a problem, Yes it is making people rage, Yes it is causing us to have to carry a specific pokemon just to counter the team entirely which almost makes it entirely useless in the regular competitive world since things like Aura Sphere and Aerial Ace are completely useless otherwise. Maybe you don't see it but the fact you sat there and say 'Only people in AO use it so they can preserve their wins' I could possibly very well speak for me and countless other regulars who don't like it that aren't even in AO so, You might want to consider rewording that because that statement was completely false.

I have been keeping on changing the focus of a small part of my team specifically for these evasion people. Things like Ninjask are already hard to hit entirely but when you throw baton pass on it and throw it onto something like a Baton Pass team, It makes the entire point of the team useless unless you focus into one point of the game. And most of us are tired of having to change our teams to account for the incredible amounts of unfairness in evasion itself. And in case you don't see it, I'm not the only one, I can completely guarantee you that people like Brave are probably tired of it to, And all these people you say are 'raging about the metagame' should say something to you all about being completely oblivious to the real issue evasion is even causing for at least half of Reborn. I'm tired of seeing "OMG EVASION WTF" on the main chat, And I'm sure the auths are by now as well.