Best Starter?

[Ocho]

This is for fun and for everyone to see the best option by stats and by the society's opinion

[Rainlove]

Well, I started off the game with Fenniken. It was a random pick for me since I honestly didn't know what to pick. Right now I'm at the point of Amertine City. I don't think I could have reached this level without Delphox. Really fast and hits hard. On top of that, it knows amazing moves. Saved me from Cory, Shelly, Serra, Noel and Florina.

 

I wanted Litten at first but I couldn't find him anywhere. I found out later that is has not been implemented yet.

[Farnsworth]

Okay... Why is Charmander so high in the stats poll? It most certainly isn't the strongest starter throughout the game, in fact it is one of the weakest ones (except very early game when you can still abuse Dragon Rage). I assume people are counting the Mega Evolutions when they are voting. But the poll didn't mention anything about including them, and even then M-Charizard (X or Y) is far far far worse than both Blaziken and Greninja. Not to mention the poll is about using these mons in-game, Charmander is useless mid to late game, until you get one of its mega stones (which for all we know is probably post game). So I'm really puzzled by these results, because they give off a false impression that Charmander is actually good in game (when as I mentioned previously it is one of the weakest starters). The results of the poll are very misleading, and I urge anyone who is seeing it to not actually believe that Charmander is one of the strongest starters in game.

 

Torchic far surpasses it in every single aspect, even if you include both Megas. Froakie end game is also much better due to its incredible versatility, but it is very bad mid game due to Frogadier's mediocre level up moveset (hence why I don't think it's the strongest starter).

 

EDIT: 

Since the poll results are very different right now. I'll edit my post to say that at the time I wrote this Charmander was TIED with Torchic in the stats poll. And that was after I voted for Torchic.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Farnsworth

[PokeFailure]

I've done 3 playthroughs of reborn in varying states of compleition, One with squirtle, One with Torchic, and one with Oshawott. 

 

I obviously love Squirtle, it's a fairly balanced pokemon but it has its weaknesses. 

 

IMO the best is Froakie cause I'm a speed demon. 

[ShadowStar]

It's no question that the Torchic line is the best in the game. It gets Speed Boost and all of the Moves it needs via level-up. I'd say that Snivy, Froakie, and Chimchar follow in no particular order. Personally, I chose Chimchar and it's expansive movepool, above average speed, mixed attacking stats, and early Nasty Plot saved me a ton. Honorable mention to Typhlosion for Eruption spam.

 

My favorite starter aesthetically is the Snivy family. 

[LeonVermillion]

for the best starter, Torchic line is no doubt is the best of them all and that is all thank to Speed Boost, but for my favorite... it's always either Froakie or mudkip

[Alistair]

Speed boost Torchic is a no-brainer for technical best. Although Charmander is even more broken up to Shelly, due to early Dragon Rage.

My vote goes to Snivy the little green snek for opinion best.

[sound of silence]

Despite everyone's assertion blaziken wrecks, my answer is fennekin as the best starter as it provides better support and a hard hitter compared to blaziken who is dependent on a lot of AI derping/team support to achieve sweeps in gym/doubles/boss fights (shelley is a good example of this if you fail to use castform or a fake out user as of EP16). Fast Will-O-Wisp + light screen on something that isn't as weak as meowstic is really clutch for a lot of fights. 

 

I went mudkip for preferred despite the I LIEK MUDKIPZ memes. Mega-Swampert is a great cleaner and tank in one (which is why we will never get that mega stone)

[Via]

I've done the game with Froakie, Torchic, and Fennekin in that order. Froakie was very hard to start off with, even with Protean. It's attacks and movepool were just rather underwhelming.

I honestly can't decide between Torchic and Fennekin. I've relied on Torchic/Blaziken a ton for sweeping, but Fennekin is insanely helpful against the likes of Corey, who I've always thought was the hardest gym leader. Plus Fennekin gets good moves like Psyshock and Shadow Ball in its learnset.

 

I've never tried with Mudkip, but that's because I think Florinia would be a nightmare, and to a lesser extent Fern. Plus, I hate Swampert's design. Mudkip looks great, but Swampert...

[Ocho]

I thought you people were going to choose more snivy for the first one. I mean, Contrary is very useful, and Serperior has great Speed and once it learned Leaf Storm it will be VEEERY useful.

[BlackRum]

On 24.12.2016 at 3:32 AM, Farnsworth said:

Okay... Why is Charmander so high in the stats poll? It most certainly isn't the strongest starter throughout the game, in fact it is one of the weakest ones (except very early game when you can still abuse Dragon Rage).

[...]

EDIT: 

Since the poll results are very different right now. I'll edit my post to say that at the time I wrote this Charmander was TIED with Torchic in the stats poll. And that was after I voted for Torchic.

 

I have to strongly disagree with your statement. Charmander is a beast and he deserves the love he's getting. These are my reasons to say Charmander is a strong starter:

Charmander is all about the early game power. Dragon Rage at level 16 means he gets access to a guaranteed two hit against foes starting from Julia to about Corey. At which point he gets the move Flame Burst to incinerate forests, fields and mists. Also Flame Burst and Fire Fang are decent early-mid game moves and he can later replace both moves with Heat Wave and Flare Blitz by level up or by move relearner. All in all once his Dragon Rage cheese starts to fall off Charizard transitions into a potent mixed attacker for all of mid to lategame. His movepool does however lack a bit of variety outside of fire moves.

MegaEvolutions would give him a boost sure, but until they are available in game it's no point arguing.

Now let's see how Charmander compares to other starters. Charmander is the only one of the starters who has access to Dragon Rage. I dare say for quite a long while Dragon Rage outshines the overhyped abilities Protean and Speed Boost. Here's why. Protean means your attacks always get STAB, Speed Boost means your attacks usually go first but Dragon Rage means this attack will deal 40 dmg. And for a big part of the early game, that's what makes all the difference in the world. What good is outspeeding your opponents or STAB if you can barely scratch them? Besides Charmander's speed allows him to outspeed many foes anyways. And Froakie's movepool is quite barren, so sure you get STAB, but what good is it, if the moves you get STAB on don't pack a punch? The coverage of  Froakie's moves can't compete with Dragon Rage's guaranteed 40 dmg on every type except for Fairy.

The lategame is the easy(-ish) part of the game, because that's when you have access to a heap of pokemon. Having a completely overpowered Blaziken will help you no doubt, but you're a lot less dependent on it since you can compensate with a plethora of different mons. Yes, I have to admit Blaziken is the stronger lategame pokemon, but this topic is about the best -starter- and for me that's definitely Charmander as his power alone will carry you through the first 3 gyms along with any major boss battles up to that point.

Edited December 25, 2016 by BlackRum

[Paperblade]

I wouldn't put more weight on early game power than I would any other point in the game. The pokemon you get early game tend to suck, yeah, but enemy teams are just as unoptimized. They're not EV trained, they tend to not have items, and their movelists are much weaker in terms of power and coverage. They've been heavily nerfed from how they were a few years ago. I'm pretty sure as long as you aren't trying to lose by bringing like 5 water types, you can handle the early game. For example, Florinia is almost entirely walled by any random bug/flying type you pick up--her only pokemon with an attack that's not resisted by that typing is Cradily.

 

Another point is that early game is when you are most in danger of going over the level cap, since there's tons of random trainers around and you are least likely to be using a full team of 6 due to how bad most of the mons are. This makes a starter that's insanely strong early then falls off less desirable, since you'll probably end up using other pokemon anyway.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Paperblade

[Farnsworth]

1 hour ago, BlackRum said:

 

I have to strongly disagree with your statement. Charmander is a beast and he deserves the love he's getting. These are my reasons to say Charmander is a strong starter:

Charmander is all about the early game power. Dragon Rage at level 16 means he gets access to a guaranteed two hit against foes starting from Julia to about Corey. At which point he gets the move Flame Burst to incinerate forests, fields and mists. Also Flame Burst and Fire Fang are decent early-mid game moves and he can later replace both moves with Heat Wave and Flare Blitz by level up or by move relearner. All in all once his Dragon Rage cheese starts to fall off Charizard transitions into a potent mixed attacker for all of mid to lategame. His movepool does however lack a bit of variety outside of fire moves.

MegaEvolutions would give him a boost sure, but until they are available in game it's no point arguing.

Now let's see how Charmander compares to other starters. Charmander is the only one of the starters who has access to Dragon Rage. I dare say for quite a long while Dragon Rage outshines the overhyped abilities Protean and Speed Boost. Here's why. Protean means your attacks always get STAB, Speed Boost means your attacks usually go first but Dragon Rage means this attack will deal 40 dmg. And for a big part of the early game, that's what makes all the difference in the world. What good is outspeeding your opponents or STAB if you can barely scratch them? Besides Charmander's speed allows him to outspeed many foes anyways. And Froakie's movepool is quite barren, so sure you get STAB, but what good is it, if the moves you get STAB on don't pack a punch? The coverage of  Froakie's moves can't compete with Dragon Rage's guaranteed 40 dmg on every type except for Fairy.

The lategame is the easy(-ish) part of the game, because that's when you have access to a heap of pokemon. Having a completely overpowered Blaziken will help you no doubt, but you're a lot less dependent on it since you can compensate with a plethora of different mons. Yes, I have to admit Blaziken is the stronger lategame pokemon, but this topic is about the best -starter- and for me that's definitely Charmander as his power alone will carry you through the first 3 gyms along with any major boss battles up to that point.

 

I did clearly say in my post that early game Charmander is a beast. But like the post above me said you are putting way to much weight on early game. There are plenty of mediocre pokemon that shine in the early parts of the game like Trubbish/Garbodor and Kricketune. Would we have a discussion saying that Kricketune is better than Blaziken in-game? I don't think so, because everyone knows that mid to late game it becomes useless. On that note, mid to late Charizard is outclassed by so many Fire and Flying pokemon it isn't even funny. Also why would anyone ever would want to use Charizard as a mixed attacker? We would have to depend on its mediocre base 84 attack stat, it is much better as a special attacker with Heat Wave and Air Slash. 

 

The fact is that mid-to-late game Charizard falls behind than most of the starters (if we don't consider Megas). Don't shrug off saying that late game isn't as important, and you completely ignored the mid game when we still don't have access to many pokemon. Early game can be just as easy (if not easier) than late if you use the right pokemon. Florinia is completely swept by a Kricketune, while ground types make quick work of Corey. I don't think being good in the first 3 gyms classifies Charmander as the best in-game starter.

[ShadowStar]

On 12/24/2016 at 6:17 PM, DeathBoo said:

I thought you people were going to choose more snivy for the first one. I mean, Contrary is very useful, and Serperior has great Speed and once it learned Leaf Storm it will be VEEERY useful.

It is mostly because Snivy is rather lackluster before it gets Leaf Storm. However, with Leaf Storm, it is fantastic.

[H.P. Doom]

12 hours ago, Farnsworth said:

 

I did clearly say in my post that early game Charmander is a beast. But like the post above me said you are putting way to much weight on early game. There are plenty of mediocre pokemon that shine in the early parts of the game like Trubbish/Garbodor and Kricketune. Would we have a discussion saying that Kricketune is better than Blaziken in-game? I don't think so, because everyone knows that mid to late game it becomes useless. On that note, mid to late Charizard is outclassed by so many Fire and Flying pokemon it isn't even funny. Also why would anyone ever would want to use Charizard as a mixed attacker? We would have to depend on its mediocre base 84 attack stat, it is much better as a special attacker with Heat Wave and Air Slash. 

 

The fact is that mid-to-late game Charizard falls behind than most of the starters (if we don't consider Megas). Don't shrug off saying that late game isn't as important, and you completely ignored the mid game when we still don't have access to many pokemon. Early game can be just as easy (if not easier) than late if you use the right pokemon. Florinia is completely swept by a Kricketune, while ground types make quick work of Corey. I don't think being good in the first 3 gyms classifies Charmander as the best in-game starter.

I agree. I tried using Char and he just didnt put in work after dragon rage went away. I'd rather use mons like Crobat for it's amazing speed and access to acrobatics or Noivern who destroys gyms with a lot of resistances and great moves like hurricane, dragon pulse, dark pulse and more. Charizard just doesnt work out.  Now seeing the first poll, i am extremely supirsed by mudkip.  Now i LOVE MUDKIP. He is my favorite gen 3 starter.  But HE IS WEAK AS HELL.  His special is mediocre and at his mid stage, all his stab moves are special with the should be 10% accurate mud bomb mud shot and water gun.  It doesnt get access to muddy water, also a basically 10% accurate move until level like 37 or something.  And once again, its special, but Swampert can use special moves a bit easier.  Also it doesnt get access to earthquake until level 51.  So Mudkip struggles a lot in early and mid game.. But once you get to Agate... HE IS A BEAST.  You get waterfall for great physical damage plus hammer arm and E.Quake for great coverage and stab.  Also sludge wave which does a decent amount at this point, covering its only weakness, grass. In summery, Mudkip is great late game, but VERY FLOPPY in early to mid game.

[sound of silence]

8 hours ago, H.P. Doom said:

I agree. I tried using Char and he just didnt put in work after dragon rage went away. I'd rather use mons like Crobat for it's amazing speed and access to acrobatics or Noivern who destroys gyms with a lot of resistances and great moves like hurricane, dragon pulse, dark pulse and more. Charizard just doesnt work out.  Now seeing the first poll, i am extremely supirsed by mudkip.  Now i LOVE MUDKIP. He is my favorite gen 3 starter.  But HE IS WEAK AS HELL.  His special is mediocre and at his mid stage, all his stab moves are special with the should be 10% accurate mud bomb mud shot and water gun.  It doesnt get access to muddy water, also a basically 10% accurate move until level like 37 or something.  And once again, its special, but Swampert can use special moves a bit easier.  Also it doesnt get access to earthquake until level 51.  So Mudkip struggles a lot in early and mid game.. But once you get to Agate... HE IS A BEAST.  You get waterfall for great physical damage plus hammer arm and E.Quake for great coverage and stab.  Also sludge wave which does a decent amount at this point, covering its only weakness, grass. In summery, Mudkip is great late game, but VERY FLOPPY in early to mid game.

 

Not really. Marshtomp, especially a damp variant, cheeses julia to start the early game. It really only struggles with florinia and shelley (make surre to fight corey on the corrosive mist field) due to the quad grass weakness but half its special movepool gets buffed to acceptable levels from the fields you encounter after that. Protect stalling with T-spikes support is invaluable from something that isn't weak as piss. After shelley, it really only struggles with aya (weirdly enough, due to wasteland ground nerfs) and serra due to possible freeze dry shenanigans and having to do common candy tricks to get earthquake while keeping it obedient. It does rather well vs Noel (hint: teach it sludge wave to change to corrosive field, then spam muddy water. Makes clefable so much easier to beat), and above average at a minimum afterwards in major gym/boss fights, until at least Blake. 

Edited December 26, 2016 by sound of silence