Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia

[Chase]

Games being datamined - so I'll avoid most content (save for Mathilda's picture. She cool.)

 

the Amiibo support in this game applies to more Amiibo than Fates did, adding Roy and -naturally- Mamui and Femui.

 

However, all non Echoes Amiibo function as shades - disappatting after one turn.

 

-Most- Falchion weilders are able to kill Duma with the final blow. All, except for Lucina.

 

Revenge, Team Ephriam. 

[YinYang9705]

supports happening on the battlefield implies there are no S rank supports, which I am more than ok with

as for the extra chapter, all I hope for is that it doesn't suck

[Chase]

There's some interesting conflicting data coming out of the sales numbers in Japan.

 

Echoes reached an 80% sell-through rate, which means the game is doing about as well as Nintendo had expected it to do.

 

However, it's only sold about a THIRD of what Fates sold in it's first week, and less than Shadow Dragon and Mystery's remake, which were panned quite hard by the Fire Emblem community.

 

Reasons:

 

• Gaiden has been around in Japan for a long time. It's not a mysterious entity like it is to the rest of the world. This is good, because sales figures abroad should likely help out any lag the game may be experiencing at home. Another franchise that suffers in Japan traditionally but picks up abroad is Pokemon.
• Advertising and showing off the game has been rather slim compared to Awakening and Fates, indicating that Nintendo had didn't have hopes that this game was going to keep pace with Fates and Awakening in the first place, and maybe didn't go all out in trying to make it something people were going to buy in spades.
• There isn't two versions of Echoes, meaning it's not such a troubling sign that it's being dwarfed by Fates' three-times-it's-size selling numbers.

When thinking about what kinds of things the Japanese gaming community are interested in - it's pretty acceptable that modern game mechanics like pair-up and more importantly, the player avatar are appreciated. Dating simulators are a phenomenon over there, so they probably really appreciate being able to work their long hours and then settle for a very cheap date clearing Chapter 22 with their virtual wife. I don't think it's something that should really be judged all that hard.

 

---

 

However, it's understandable several other Fire Emblem players would be worried. Many people wanted Echoes to do well in hopes that the numbers would inspire more remakes to be made, namely of games like Thracia 776. Others wanted "classic" Fire Emblem to be popular with the surging fanbase of the last two installments and hoped Echoes would ultimately be that game.

 

As a singular "new-school" tactician, I am still very excited for Echoes. I don't care if it's not doing so hot, not all games do in long running franchises. I think reviews would be the more interesting thing when the game finally goes global.

[HughJ]

I'm excited to play. If the numbers in Japan are any indication, sales over here are not going to be as spectacular as 13 or 14.

 

I'd like to see how they've deepened the world of Gaiden from the pixelated sequel it once was; the art and music look excellent.

 

Supports on the battlefield are a pain in the ass in my opinion. It's nostalgic, sure, but it constricts the scope of conversation and often gives writers an easy out - in FE8 I remember a good amount of C-supports ended with "Stop talking and focus on the big deadly guy three tiles away!" I'm fine with no S supports (immediate reciprocal love is kind of unnerving) but the idea of hanging around on a map forever with no indication of who needs to stand next to whom kind of sucks.

 

[Chase]

• The game is in full VA
• The Villagers are hilarious. At least those from the starting village.
• Mycen is best Jagen.
• GIB ME GAIM NAO

[Sheep]

1 hour ago, Chase said:

• Mycen is best Jagen.

 

 

The fact that my favourite Jagen and my favourite Oifey are both the only female entries to their respective archetypes is pure coincidence I swear.

[Chase]

It's here. That means I've gotta lay out my expectations.

 

Positives:

 

1. I expect Shadows of Valentia to be the best story telling 3DS entry. And yeah, I've played Awakening. The original characters add to the intrigue and I expect Gaiden's narrative to be fleshed out.

 

2. I also expect the cinematic appeal of the game to hook players. The full VA is a series first and the various cutscene types give it the that nice motion picture feel at times. If nothing else - Echoes will be fun to see and hear.

 

3. I think the exploration aspect of the game will be a positive experience - especially for those who have the Alm and Celica amiibo and who do get some DLC.

 

Negatives:

 

1. As a new player - I was spoiled with characters being able to support nearly every member of the army that was of the opposite gender and a couple of the same gender. GBA era Emblemiers may be okay with the very scarce support options. I'm going to miss the loads of backstory on each character and lack of pressure from impending battle being in the supports we do get.

 

2. The weapon triangle being absent means some players will probably need to adjust.

 

3. #Gaidenmapdesign 

 

Bonus Rant: I really hate having DLC that's available at launch. That could have just been in the game - even if you have to mark it up. I also think the Season Pass being worth about the same as the game itself is ridiculous. And I appreciate capitalism.

 

[5hift]

Oh crap this game came out?

 

RIP my wallet.

[Commander]

So I haven't finished act one yet, but I can at least give my thoughts in regards to the whole differences between Gaiden and Echoes (even though I haven't played Gaiden I've seen bits and pieces of it). So here's kind of my initial first impression review:

 

The game is a gem, but it is certainly not made for everyone. I really, really, really like Echoes and you can see they did a really good job and put a lot of love into this remake. More than Shadow Dragon imo. So vets and fans of Gaiden you definitely want to pick this one up and give it a try. It's pretty much Gaiden but more fleshed out in both story and graphics (and hell of a lot better UI). This game was aimed at fans of Gaiden and you can tell. Now let's get into a little more detail:

 

Pros:

 

The story is solid especially coming off of Fates which even the most hardcore fans of fates can't defend that story. It's interesting and the VA makes the story all the more involving. They went all out on the VA with even minor NPCs having voices. It really helps bring out a charm and get more into the characters. I love the other characters being involved though as it's so much more entertaining than watch the lord talk about the conflict and go through the conflict. Faye, on the other hand, is a really shallow character, but hey extra unit.

 

The gameplay itself just works. It's very odd, but I kind of like it. It requires you to rely on terrain a lot more even at the start (I'm playing on hard mode), but even your crappy characters can easily get experience if you know how to play. Yeah, yeah Gaiden's maps are flat, but you have to think about your every move so it helps balance it out. Dungeon exploring is also a hell of a lot of fun (a little clunky, but walking around in an FE game is rare). And magic is perfectly fine with the HP cost and trust me, you will use magic.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention the AI. The AI is very, very smart. If an enemy is dying and there's a healing tile nearby, they'll run to the tile instead of attacking. Only found one odd quirk but definitely pay attention on the soldier maps or you may get into trouble (haven't had to use the time turner yet, but I had one close call. Love that thing though).

 

Cons:

 

Gaiden's (It's Echoes, but they are the same game at the core) gameplay is going to turn certain people off very fast. Your units aren't unstoppable monsters who can easily defeat someone using the weapon triangle. You rarely are even able to ORKO a unit with Alm or Lukas (both whom are very strong). That feeling of being really weak might turn players off. Terrain is the bigger deal. Get ready to miss a number of attacks just due to terrain as you go from 90 to 60 if an enemy is on a tree.

 

I'm also aware how Echoes is going to be a ton of flat pieces of land. If that's your reason for not trying Gaiden yet you loved Awakening or Birthright (even if you thought they were okay same applies) give Echoes a try. Yeah maps are lackluster, but you got a lot of toys to play with. So far Act 1's maps aren't very boring especially with a few dangerous enemies who will give you hell (that bloody shield mercenary).

 

Echoes is also a perfect replica of Gaiden only fixing the UI (which has that classic feel still which imo is mixed feelings), adding a ton of story narrative to it, and a whole bunch of bells and whistles (and a hard mode difficulty, but not lunatic). While I could complain about stamina, I haven't had an issue so far. That might be for the full review.

 

Oh and one other gripe: You have to hit end turn to end your turn (instead of moving all units automatically sets you into enemy phase). I understand the decision, but...it is a minor nitpick.

 

Closing Thoughts:

 

I'll admit there was a lot in this game that turned me off when it was first announced, but all that doubt has cleared away and I'm really enjoying Echoes. Of the 5 games for the 3ds, Echoes is easily my favorite and I haven't even gotten that far into it. Do I think the Awakening or Fates fanbase will like this game? Absolutely not. It is almost the exact opposite of those games and will feel very different to the point people used to the super powerful units will be a little lost (Alm is very, very strong though, but the other villagers not so much). Supports are fine and is better than the GBA since you can see them and figure out who to support.

 

Do I recommend giving Echoes a shot: oh absolutely. I didn't understand why people loved Gaiden so much until I started playing Echoes and it all kind of clicked. I'm very impressed with what I've seen and despite being a very, very flawed game, I'm having fun. It's an 8/10 game, but it's still fire emblem to the core.

[Guzam]

26 minutes ago, Commander said:

Oh and one other gripe: You have to hit end turn to end your turn (instead of moving all units automatically sets you into enemy phase). I understand the decision, but...it is a minor nitpick.

Hi ok, so yes, I agree that this is stupid to have this be the default, but you can change this by going to options if you haven't yet. I have 0 idea as to why they decided to have smart end turned off by default in this game.

 

If you already did change it, my b.

[Chase]

So. Here's an exercise. What classes did you make your villagers/will you make your villagers?

 

---

 

Gray is going Mercenary. He tends to be slow in other classes and being able to use a sword is "canon" to him. Merc fixes his speed.

 

Tobin was VERY hard for me. As a Mage he gets Excalibur really early - and that's a great spell. His growths however sealed the deal for me. He'll be going archer - true to "canon".

 

Kliff was going to be a Mage. He has the most extensive spell list of the Ram villagers and at this point I needed a magic user.

 

Faye has decent personal growths all around and I would argue that any of her class options work well. I'll rank them.

 

1. Cleric - 2 Clerics in Alm's route early on is pretty valuable for training both of them up. Faye gets access to Again, the inserted "Dance" function to allow a unit to go twice in one turn.

 

2. Pegasus Knight - Alm only gets one Peg in Clair, so if you like flying units you should definitely give Faye a pegasus. I don't believe Faye competes with Clair as well as she battles Silque though.

 

3. Cavalier - I think the reason to use Faye as a Cav is availability. Clive and Mathilda should both outclass her - but she could make the class work without competition just beyond Ram Village.

 

4. Mage - Alm doesn't get too many mages - and having more than one isn't a bad thing against units like the Leather shield Mercenary or Desaix early.

 

Optimizing? Go Cleric or Peg. Just looking a good time, whatever floats your boat.

 

Edit:

 

Oh Atlas.....great Attack. Horrible everything else.

 

His best bet is Mercenary as he's an even more lopsided Gray, but Celica gets Jesse, Saber, and Deen as Mercs. Cavalier is workable as long as you don't expect him to double and you pick your battles judiciously. She doesn't have Cavaliers. Mage is actually sneaky for Atlas as he'll hit HARD - but his accuracy could do him in. Same with Archer. Just don't make him a soldier.

[Eviora]

Oh. This game is out now. I'd totally forgotten. xD

[Chase]

I'm glad Evi bumped this. I changed my mind a bit since.

 

Kliff is NOT going to be a Mage but instead will be a Cavalier. Alm gets Luthier in his route, and while Kliff is a decent mage option due to his wide spell list, he falls short of getting Excalibur before Luthier arrives if you play the game quickly. As a Cav however, his potential attack screwage gets fixed by Gold Knight's 18 base attack and he has better Skill, Speed, and Defence growths than Clive, the first cavalier Alm gets. 

 

Tobin will move from Archer to Mage, as he gets Excalibur much earlier than Kliff -or- Luthier would have and will be able to hit very nicely.

 

Grey is still going Merc. 

 

Faye will probably still go Cleric.

 

---

 

MINOR SPOILER TERRITORY.

 

I -Like- Faye, but I understand why most people won't. If Faye were in a game like Awakening or Fates - her obsessive streak would be elaborated on and other areas of her life would be laid to bare. Those things helped out more extreme characters with Faye's characteristics such as Tharja and Camilla.

 

As far as I'm aware, Faye only speaks regularly with Alm throughout the Deliverance's many pit stops, with Alm again in supports, and with Silque in supports. Outside of that she only shows up in early cutscenes.

 

This is a far cry from Tharja supporting Robin, Gregor, Gaius, and so on and so forth - or Camilla with her family, retainers, and every bachelor in the Nohrian ranks along with Corrin.

 

Faye is partly shallow, because support options are shallow in this system - and it's one of the game's biggest faults.

[Commander]

@Chase For the villagers I did the following:

 

Kliff - Mage: He's been super helpful since the second mage you get is in the middle of part three (well your first) so if you don't make one of your units a mage...you'll be very, very sorry. When he learns Excalibur, he becomes super, super good.

 

Faye - Peg Knight: Gonna say I regretted this as Claire who is literally the same level as Fae has better Pegasus stats (which doesn't say much since Pegs are bad in this game). I'd definitely say go Cleric as she's gonna be your only Psychic users until like halfway through Part 4 on Alm's route. Peg Fae is okay at the start then just turns into straight bad. Not sure anything else is good for her.

 

Gray: He was a mercenary and honestly, that's the best class for him as he's fast af and strong. His only downside are that his defenses are a little low. As a Dread Fighter Equipped with a Hexing Shield, attacks from mages with 20-30 attack (he has 8 res) did about 6 damage. That's not a tiny amount. Alm's path only has a couple super good swords and Alm is your only other sword user in your army so this is a given. Gray's great as a merc.

 

Tobin: A guide said Tobin sucks so make him an Archer. Mine is now a Bow Knight but with a Steel Bow, Tobin has been my bloody rock in Act 4 (especially with some of those hell fights). Yeah he's bad at the beginning but once skills come into play his high skill will make it so that he rarely ever misses (Once I upgraded Python's Iron Bow to the max the two work well hand in hand for chip damage). He's a good Steel Bow user and two Archers isn't a bad thing. Make sure you level both him and Python or you will suffer down the line from some nasty surprises.

 

Also minor spoilers:

 

As for them as characters, Faye though is kind of meh. I love how her crit face is so creepy it works (nobody is that happy to kill). I like her design, but her focus only being Alm's lover is what kills her. The Alm and Faye's A support is good as Alm straight up rejects her. I don't know if the game will build off of this, but it would be good for the story if they showed her getting over it. Alm didn't even beat around the bush.

 

Silque's support does show a bit about her as she really doesn't care about anyone other than Alm at the start. In the end, the two become friends due to Faye revealing she is a bit lonely (which instead of asking to talk about Alm, she wants to learn more about Silque). The sad part is, this is all we really have of her character unlike most of the cast where you can learn more about them. Kind of sucks since it would be nice to learn more (yes, I'm aware there are two more supports).

 

But to sum Faye in a nutshell, she's not a poorly written character, but she's only an okay unit and lacks depth needed for her character to work. That combination just makes her pretty shallow which in return makes her not very likeable. She wasn't part of the original cast so I'm not going to be too harsh on her as it's very possible she was pushed in at the end. I just wish she could've been an archer. She would've made a pretty good archer.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now that I've gotten very far into the game (Part 4 of 6), I can judge it a little bit more. This won't be a pro and cons but mostly a collection of my thoughts:

 

I'll start with the story since it's one of the smallest. The main story is really good. There's very little that's going to surprise you so don't expect major plot twists, but what it does do it does very well. The voice acting really helps flesh out the characters better and makes them sound more alive and my god does it really make things interesting. Scene's are very interesting to watch and I'll admit the party members being part of the story really helps make it far more interesting (it's basically Tellius, but better). And yes, party members can and will die in classic mode (some will retreat if they are needed for major plot points in the story), but most of them have death quotes.

 

Maybe I should go into the character involvement a bit more as it's not every character, but I want you to remember this is a huge cast. On Alm's side: Clive, Gray, Tobin, Lukas, and Claire are featured quite a bit (this is forced stuff and not optional). On Celica's side: Mae, Booey, and Saber appear quite a bit, but I know Kamui, Leon, and Valibar have a couple scenes. I can't remember every little detail off the top of my head, but yeah characters appear quite a bit so I assume if they die their lines are just removed (I don't know what happens to the peg sisters though when you get Est. And yes, they can die as well). But in general, scenes are just rarely the lord talking with their adviser and one other important character to progress the plot. The characters are what make this game so full of life.

 

Now going more into characters, you can learn more about them other than supports this time around. In fact being able to talk to them are basically Alm's supports with people more or less. When you got to a village or similar areas you can talk with party members and often it is interesting dialogue where they talk about...almost anything (it changes the further you progress into the game). You can learn why Lukas joined the army, Python's sass, and such. This is the meat of their backstory is at. Then we get into supports. They are in a sense, better than the bulk of Fate's supports, but overall weaker than most of the series. Basically it's more or less them talking a bit on the battlefield about something. Nothing stood out, but some of them were pretty good (Lu's and Delthea's were entertaining). In fact some of the requirements to unlock further convos is talking to them in a village. It works, but it's not the best. Tellius games did something similar and in fact, the design was eerily similar.

 

I think what tops this all off is the little things characters do. Death quotes and level ups are always entertaining to see how they react (in fact when they only gain a little stat growth their reactions are priceless. My favorite is when they level up luck they talk about being lucky). There's so much more but it's just better to experience it for yourself. Oh yeah, the voice acting is pretty good as well (better than fates). We've come a long way from PoR. A very long way. Oh and a certain character will attack Alm and only Alm if he's in range which is a cool mechanic.

 

Okay now to talk about Gameplay and oh boy where to begin:

 

Let's talk about that map design. Oi, I'll just say that Gaiden has some of the most sadistic ideas for maps such as a building where you are outside, but it's blocked by a mountain and the only way to get inside is through two very narrow pathways on either side. While maps are bleh, they are better than Awakening's since reinforcements aren't as BS as that game and you do have a couple of objectives to complete during a map. You have a lot more to play with so I wouldn't say maps are very boring, but the design is interesting. But in a nutshell: Alm's are big open field and Celica's are hazard hell. There are a lot of gem maps though. Only map I really despise is to whoever the fucker though making an archer desert map was a good idea.

 

Now with bad maps designs and grinding you'd think the game would have horrible balance issues. Honestly on Hard Mode, Echoes is tough, but easier than Conquest Hard mode by a landslide. I'll admit Echoes is not a cakewalk game and there will be points where you wonder how in the world you are going to beat this. Mila's Time Turner is an ungodly gift and what makes the game really fun to play. So in a sense, you could say Echoes is very difficult or the easiest FE game to date due to this mechanic. Hard mode feels pretty natural to me if you're wondering as the only big thing is that enemies are a bit tanky.

 

I do want to talk about the weapon system now. While I miss the weapon triangle, this game really doesn't need a weapon triangle to work. Skills and supports more or less make up for the difference a triangle would make. But you know how Fates did the infinite use thing. Echoes does that, but instead of being a huge bloody mess, Echoes feels more natural. Basically you can only hold one weapon at a time or a shield (which I use a combination of both), but weapons work by basically adding might to your attack (you can attack without a weapon), but more importantly, your speed is deduced by the weight of the weapon. The speed thing I'm a big fan of as it's just like good old FE mechanics of Weight and con, but simplified. It's simple to remember and works well since fast characters won't be affected as much and get more power whereas middle ground units want to use weaker weapons for less speed deduction.

 

Now there's magic. I'll be honest, I think the magic system works fantastically here and kicks Fate's but hard. Magic is very overpowered, but the HP thing is not that big of a deal once you get the hang of it. Once you get two healers, you'll never have to worry about mages running out of HP. Dying is a different story. It works and it works very well once you get to act 3. I love this system and I would definitely be okay with them bringing this back in future fe games. Though on the flip side, it is a little OP since rings can heal psychic damage off. I may or may not have been abusing this with Genny.

 

Now for some gripes I have: Premotions are kind of weird as in you generally just want to premote units ASAP. In the long run, not doing 20/20/20 will make it so that you probably won't max units out, but you level up so little that 7/10/20 more or less will take the whole game to achieve. It's a confusing mechanic that I still don't understand very well, but you don't get to be too powerful so it works out. BExp is also super nice since Exp is in such a shortage, but I wish characters could level up through it instead of it being a waste. Losing 10 points in Exp in a low Exp gain game is a big deal. Enemies also popping out from the boss section to charge at you on the overworld is also kind of annoying as well. But free silver coins and exp.

 

Then there's Mila's Time Gear...or whatever it's called. The mechanics itself is fantastic as if you make a bad more or bad play you can undo it. Unless of course Alm or Celica die. But by the time I reached Act 4, I have 10 uses of this thing and imo that's way too much. If they bring this mechanic back (which they really should), I'd like it to be reduced to 3. In dungeons though, you will meet some very, very strong foes so you will want to use these wisely. It's the battle save feature but done just right.

 

Speaking of Dungeons, I love them in Echoes. They are pretty short except the Fear Mountain one which is pretty long, and I'm so glad you heal up after every battle. So far the fatigue system barely affected me, but I slightly understand the decision, but eh, don't worry about it too much. As long as you don't overuse a character, you're usually fine. Easily the best part of Echoes despite maps being more or less open areas. But battles can be very scary when you have a limited amount of time gear uses and enemies can gang up on you.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the dual lords mechanic though. On one hand, it works, but on the other, enemies can move to attack the other lord if you aren't careful. If they decide to do another Radiant Dawn designed game which you have 3 armies later, I'd prefer something like this, but eh, one army seems to be IS's strongsuit. The item scarcity is my favorite thing as it makes you think about who gets what weapon in battle instead of loading everyone up on a Steel/Silver, Iron, and Dual ranged weapon and maybe a healing item just in case.

 

And then there's towns. I was upset at first when they got rid of the ability to walk around in towns. With the slightly awkward movement in dungeons, I kind of understand that decision, but I prefer this new system where you use a menu to choose actions. Picture professor layton but a little more simplified. It's sadly way too much fun when the first thing you want to do is visit a new area and hunt for stuff. It's a lot of fun and the sidequests kind of add to it. Sidequests are kind of meh, but some rewards are fantastic. And I have...32,679 renown. How in the hell did I get that much? Anyways, it's a little side dish and there are a couple ones where you get weapons. Trust me, you want to get weapons.

 

I almost forgot about weapon forging. I kind of understand the DLC now, but eh...don't bother forging weapons until Act 4 when you have a ton of silver ones. The only weapons I forged were an Iron Lance (Deliverer for Clive) and Iron Bow (Cobra for Python). Oh and forging a Dark Sword into a Brave Sword. Forging earlier is a waste of silver coins since you can max it from the base weapon. As for gold coins...Alm has two and Celica has one which these are used for forging special weapons like the Royal Sword or Gold Dagger. If you want to max all weapons though, you'll need the DLC as you get pitiful amounts from defeating enemies (20 silver).

 

But now that I got a feel for the game, I can talk about the DLC. Here's my judgement on it: Only invest 20 bucks in the Prologue DLC and Cipher units, but skip the rest. The fourth tier dungeons I can't judge right now but if they are very well designed dungeons they might be worth it. As for the first two sets of DLC...the dungeon ones might be worth it if your into that, but the other 4 are definitely not worth it. Exp is not that hard to gain and the Silver and Gold coins aren't that big of a deal unless you want to max characters out (which there is zero reason to). Prologue ones I can recommend since characters are very well written I doubt they'd have very bad story maps for them. As for the Cipher, that's pretty much just for the free units.

[Chase]

As far as DLC and Amiibo is concerned:

 

Get dungeons. Since there are not really shops in this game, Weapons DLC is a huge boon if you get it.

 

Get the Lost Altars pack. ESPECIALLY if you like Awakening's "busted" units and even want an Easter Egg connecting Alm to Walhart regarding the "over class" he promotes to. Miss wyvern riders? Want to use friggin SPARTANS? You know you do.

 

Pass on the Rise of the Deliverance pack for now. Supports/maps can be looked up on YouTube later, and really - all the supports should have been in the game in the first place. Unless some fantastic reward that's unannounced shows up - it's not worth the money. And if you really like supports as I do. It might just piss you off.

 

Get Cipher units. Marry me, Shade.

 

Pass on EXP maps. Dungeon crawling is a great way to grind up - and if you have the Amiibo, you definitely don't need these maps.

 

If you can, get at least Alm -or- Celica's Amiibo. The dungeons are - if you are a minimalist - the best of the weapons dungeons and EXP maps condensed into one - if you are up for the challenging.

 

---

 

If you are a fan of Awakening - even if you slog through a game you don't like - try to beat Echoes' post game.

 

This is a pretty neat kinda-retcon.

[Chase]

Now that I have the game I'll share some thoughts. (Sorry, Godot and co.)

 

---

 

For me, exploring dungeons. Is super addicting. Especially the Astral Temple DLC (which you should explore after you get Clive, Python, and Forsyth in Act 1 for Alm, and after you get Valbar's crew in Act 2 for Celica.)

 

It reminds me of Dungeoneering in RuneScape - and if a game is reminding me of RS, that's a VEEEERY good itch to scratch. Seriously. Spend the 4 bucks on that dungeon. Rings. Steel Shields. Growth Rate Shards. More combat arts than you should have await for early gamers. And it trains your units up without just feeling like mindless grinding.

 

Even without the DLC, the Ram Village quests (Ram Wine to Greedy Old Man, Killing 20 brigands in the Theive's Shrine) spur growth - while the Deliverance Hideout gets your non villager units caught up.

 

I currently have Tier 2 units, Baron Lukas, and Alm - and Desaix still holds Zofia Castle. I got carried away.

 

---

 

My current goal is to get that Dracoshield from Desaix. It's doable - but not killing Slayde is hard and Desaix is essentially the FE equivalent of Solaris' Garchomp.

 

Pro-Tip. The Retreat feature can help you cheese that chapter, as units don't respawn after you have killed them. This means that you can save the game with just Desaix and Slayde on the map.

[Commander]

@Chase Honestly, there's no reason for grinding dlc as I leveled up my units pretty quickly through the main game (mostly to avoid another Berkut and his reinforcements episode. Random Spawns there are so deadly especially dealing with 4 paladins plus Fernand). Even Desaix can be beaten with 1st/2nd Tier classes. Just have 4-5 units with roughly 6-8 defense and slowly take him out. I didn't since I didn't make Faye a Cleric. Biggest mistake ever.

 

But two complaints I see about the game that I don't understand: Cantors and the hit rate

 

I understand the hit rate as very early you do miss a couple hits, but Mila's turnwheel helps counter that. When you learn to make use of the systems though, it's not that bad. Skills may not let you double but they increase the hit rate and most supports increase hits and criticals. Never really had an issue with hit rates, but probably because I was used to fates and missing 90% all the time that this didn't phase me. Yeah it's lower than normal but it didn't bother me at all as I'm used to some of that stuff. Iron bow is amazing as Curved Shot fixes archers terrible accuracy (especially since they rarely can double anyways). And then you realize enemies have the same crappy hit rate and abuse it to raise Athos super fast.

 

Cantors I really, really don't get at all for the hate. You may as well call enemy reinforcements stupid if that's what bugs you. There is only one cantor in the game that annoyed me, but that was because of that stupid skill to block attacks. It ain't even worth trying to take him down at that point with all the mess that's going on during the fight. I liked them as they kept me thinking about my moves since I had to deal with endless reinforcements while clearing out the other guys as well. Good exp for the little guys and I'd be okay with these guys coming back but...just once in a while during defense maps. Kept some maps interesting instead of turtle city (and splitting your army works wonders when handling cantors).

 

Seriously, play Radiant Dawn and Cantors wouldn't even phase you as enemies can hit even into the hundreds in that game at points. You heard me, hundreds. Anyways, here's a list of things I really, really disliked in the game:

 

1. The 3 tier premotion system: I still prefer the regular premotion where you get fixed stat gains no matter your stats instead of you bases getting increased. It helps units like Est and Delthea with low HP, but it made units way too much the same. Something most fe games do is give each character a bit of a different feel for each other. Echoes has it, but it's very, very weak overall as Lukas and Python still function the same and almost like Valbar making it grind down to rng level ups.

 

2. The Poison Swamps: First off if you want to do a Swamp level, Radiant Dawn is the best example. They aren't the best at it, but it at least makes it a defense map instead of route the enemy. The Desert is bleh but better than some games with the only bad one being the archers map since well 1 move is fantastic. Swamps do the same thing but poison does 10 damage to your HP which having to move units across it was painful. Didn't like them in fates either so maybe we can get rid of them for good. But if they are going to design them, make them in spurts that are easy to cross and not a full walk across a river of death.

 

3. Single RNG: I'm not going to go into this one but the reason units miss so much is due to the lack of true hit. While it wasn't that bad, I would not have enjoyed this game at all without Mila's turnwheel to counter the constant missing. This is mostly the early game though, but yeah true hit seems to be where IS shines the best with the games.

 

4. The lack of unit variety: Honestly when it came to the post game you were one of four things: An archer, a magic user, a dread fighter, or a calv. Mostly dread fighters and magic though. Seriously, the lack of a weapon triangle as well as the limited premotions just doesn't mix very well as it pushes you to only use only certain units and with a very small cast on each side you pretty much use them all anyways until the postgame where you probably will pick the best of the best.

 

5. That bloody bonus dungeon: I'll get into dungeons in a minute, but I have to talk about this one. This is not how you make a dungeon. The first half of it is fine, but the second half is just a mess and given there's no saves here, retreating is really the only option to get through it. Act 5 was a point of no return, but you have 4 different areas you can save through before the final boss in which that dungeon was only half the size. Even until the 8th floor I could understand, but the power creep was just ridiculous making whatever treasures in there really worthless to risk your life for. Should've honestly made this one easier and a separate dungeon like this for DLC. Would've been cool Apothesis type challenge.

 

6. That stupid thing they did in awakening: You know that thing where they show a critical spoiler earlier in the story, they did that here to, but not a single game I've seen do that did it well except one. That game is called Xenoblade Chronicles which is centered around the ability to see the future. They just need to cut it out as they are horrible at explaining it. Which is the writing's biggest issue right now. They have good ideas, but horribly explain them (since you can tell Awakening writers were brought back). Take a step back and look at the pre Awakening games, IS. They did some things which could really help you make a really good story (but I doubt fe switch will be that game).

 

7. Witches. If you know what they are, I don't need to say anything else. There's a reason they haven't made a return since Gaiden. A very good reason. (Even though we should've seen this game coming with the fates DLC cause why else would they revive that class?).

 

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Now here's some things I hope they bring back in future games:

 

1. Cantors: Yes, you heard me right. I want to see these things back as summoners rarely get to play a role in FE games only appearing in two games: SS and Gaiden (and Echoes). I guess fates as well but that's a weird version of it. The thing is that these guys make maps a little more interesting and with a little bit of work could be really well liked additions and staples in the series. You think I'm crazy, be we'll see.

 

2. Dungeons: I'll be honest, this is the reason to buy Echoes. Some people will love it, but others will hate it, but man do I think the dungeons are the highlight of the game. It's a little awkward moving around, but the exploration aspect really helps this game especially since items are scarce. If they want to add grinding back into FE, but not have an arena, I feel this would be kind of the middle ground. Yes, there's some work needed to be done, but it does have potential. This is a topic in and of itself though.

 

3. Weapon based skills: I think this is the first time I can say skills don't make or break a unit. Heck, they made Devil weapons viable. Yeah, they're still kind of bad, but I really enjoyed using that shadow sword on Jesse (though I don't know how it works in Echoes for the backfire rate). I think fates had the best balance, but they kind of took it a little too far at this point. I think they worked fine here and the HP cost kind of pushed it so you wouldn't be spamming them.

 

4. Con, but not actually con: Let's be honest here, any FE vet will tell you that the weight system here is basically a more simplified version of con. Just that speed is reduced by weight which works for Echoes, but I don't think it will in future installments. It's simple and way less complicated to the Fates system. If infinite weapons are a thing, this is the way to go. Don't believe me I'll make it simple: Would you rather use the Gradivus or the Waterwheel in Echoes?

 

5. Equipment: I'll be honest when I say we've only seen one other game really, really use equipment. That game is Path of Radiance. RD and other FE games did have them, but it wasn't as big of a thing as this one since NG+ had items that increased your chances of stat increases. I think bringing in shields would be interesting seeing how they work in Echoes, but something like only being able to hold one weapon, one accessory (Ring or Shield), and a couple miscellaneous items for the the other spots like Mana Herbs (think something of a hybrid of PoR and Echoes).

 

6. Weapon Scarcity: Something I'm sure people will have mixed feelings about is weapon durability. I think IS can go either way with it from this point forth, but if weapons are infinite use (or legendary/unique weapons are) they should be few and very hard to get so that there is challenge to get them. If we do go infinite weapons route, dungeons and inflating the price of armory weapons are going to be a must, but if they have durability maybe making dungeons the new gaiden chapters even (seriously bring back gaiden chapters).

 

7. This support and town convos: Is this support system a mess? Yes. I like how you are able to learn character backstories by talking to them in villages and dungeons though and how they changed throughout the story. This progression has a lot of potential as if you do the Delthea x Lu support you'll see one of the most unique supports ever. It's kind of the right medium for vets and newcomers (even if newcomers don't like it) as it brings a bit from both the old and new systems.

 

Honorable Mention: Voice Acting: While I think it really helped out the story in Echoes, I think that's the first resource they should cut back on to invest things that are needed to make an fe game a good fe game. My top 3 favorite storylines don't even have voice acting in them, but many I liked do. But the full scale voice acting is so, so much better than the Awakening and Fates random lines. It'd be great to have, but it wouldn't save a plot lot fates. And also, I'm mostly namine stuff that would give future FE games a unique feel to them building off of a game like this despite it being a black sheep.

[Chase]

Things that IntSys needs to keep.

 

1. Weight. People should WANT to forge up to insane weaponry. Weight is a good trade off.

 

2. Full VA. Literally saved the support system in my eyes.

 

3. Mila's Turnwheel. As a player that plays FE on the hardest difficulty these days but was made to restart to save everyone by Ame when she taught me how to play - Restarting or losing a unit to bad RNG is a pain. It's a safety net and not bumpers at the local bowling lane.

 

4. Dungeons and Villages. From the Smithy to treasure diving this exploration feature is so good you don't feel like grinding.

 

5. The Deen/Sonya situation. Hey, this adds replay value.

 

6. Villagers in droves. This is a cool way to customize some of your armies. And again. Replay value.

 

7. Boat Maps. Repetitive? Yes. Sensible in relation to plot? Yes. Meme-worthy? Yes.

 

8. Side quests.

 

9. Tasteful retcons. (The point - Commander - is that Thabes was the laboratory where a certain antagonist was born. It gave that character backstory and was a bone to newer players lorewise in a game that offered little to whet their modern fire emblem pallettes elsewhere.

 

10. Bonus XP.

 

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Kill it with fire. 

 

1. Aggressive roaming enemy spawns on the overworld map. Grinding should be optional - not forced in your face. Alms army getting rushed by Witches when trying to do all of the Celica side quests was annoying. Sensible in war. But annoying.

 

2. Genderlocked classes.

 

3. Supporting only a handful of the most obvious Units and that's it. Base conversations don't salvage characters like Faye - who talk to Alm already in one of only two supports. Branching out builds characters. If anything made it forgivable - it was ALL VA'd.

 

4. Opening cutscene is the plot twist of whole game cliche. Damn it, Awakening.

 

5. The Loop being limited to Dread Fighter alone. Either give all classes loop to Villager or don't have a loop at all. (Rip Females)

 

6. No Weapon Triangle. Terrain or pray gets pretty stale after awhile.

 

7. Paywall for support conversations. Fuck the Rise of the Deliverance pack.

 

8. Witches. RNG sucks.

 

9. Lack of Res growths.

 

10. Battle music lacking Ablaze versions. The map music was godly and A Dauntless Blade is a very stale piece by now.

 

Most of my complaints are attributed to Gaiden faithfulness - but so are a lot of the positives.

 

HM. CLERICS ARE GODLY.