FE Heroes Friend ID and Discussion Topic

[Sheep]

5 hours ago, Commander said:

I think something to take into consideration is starting weapons as well since you have to sacrifice a five star to get the tome in the first place. Min-maxers don't care about that which is true, but look at who the Gronnblade is attached to. Nino. Nino is a glass cannon with a little bit more speed so combining that with a good stats buffer (she also comes with Hone Attack and Drag Back as well which are useful in and of themselves) she nukes the field, but a little more important: she has 7 more points in res than Merric (though Merric has a much higher defense which is why he'd basically be like Archer without the bow). It's also 45 vs 41 attack at base so the one with the higher speed wins. I also say Nino is better just due to the fact she has higher res so she has a small chance of surviving a mage attack (or one that can counter) since its mostly mages who do range stuff so def...is not too helpful unless you have like 0 hector counters.

 

Only issue Nino has is her low HP so my Takumi often comes in and snipes her due to her frailty, but if you know how to position...Nino is far superior. I've seen LoD boosted Nino with 61 attack and 52 speed (or something ridiculous like that). She's very, very scary with the right team behind her though she needs some babying just like the other Gronnblade users but even without the boosts she's not worthless in a fight. But basically she can one shot everything at the cost of being KO'd by a single hit while Merric can take a hit, but needs a lot more boosts to work with...and won't double the fastest units unlike Nino. I've seen both used in the Arena and Nino is much, much scarier to face (the day a feel threatened by a Merric will be an interesting one).

 

Firstly I agree that Merric is far more resource intensive for little if any gain, but I wasn't asked which was more realistic, I was asked which was best. I took it as a theoretical exercise in determining which unit had the best statline to wield a Gronnblade+. Nino's starting skill set under these conditions is irrelevant as Merric can obtain all of it. Also, it's actually 46 vs 39 Atk at base. As far as Nino's higher Res goes it's not an advantage at all due to her very low HP, Nino has insufficient bulk to live a strong physical hit, and enough bulk to live 1 strong magical hit, while Merric also has enough bulk to live one strong magical hit (you'd need 60 Atk on neutral to OHKO -HP +Spd Merric, exactly the same amount as Nino) but he also has the bulk to live multiple physical attacks. So what you really have here are two mages, one who has more Atk and 1 point higher Spd, and the other who has much more physical bulk, their overall magical bulk is pretty similar. And seeing as I already showed that Nino's Atk is overkill, because Merric can achieve kills on all of the non-red units that she can under a pretty realistic condition of a buff of 14 points total, there's not much reason to say that Nino is better in a theoretical sense. You say that Merric won't double the fastest units, unlike Nino, but +Spd Merric sits at 39 Spd after a Hone Spd buff, which he could push up to 45 with Darting Blow. That seems like it's going to double the fastest units, and remember that I specified the fact that the Merric NEEDS to be +Spd, otherwise he's not the best Gronnblade+ user. I will acknowledge one valid point that you made though, Gronnblade+ +Spd Merric is completely dependent on buffs to work, while Nino's higher Atk, though irrelevant after buffs, is very important in the absence of buffs.

 

4 hours ago, doombotmecha said:

(disclaimer: all stats here are presented as neutral because I hate IVs)

 

The idea with Blade mages isn't to fix up a poor mage's weaknesses--it's to blow stuff up! With a dancer, you can eliminate two enemies in one turn, or take out one and retreat to do it again later. Plus, with Desperation, defenses don't matter. You take one (1) hit and then you rip through everything because nothing can live a blade-tharja double. Sure, high-res (whatever the advantaged color is) can technically live, and in some cases hit back, but that's what you have a team for.

 

Why would you even want a tanky blade-mage? It'll only make merric's attack go from "awful" to "mediocre". "mediocre" does not win games. 60x2 wins games.

 

(Also red is soooo much better for this than green 'cause most blue units have awful res and those that don't are mostly bad overall)

 

Let's look at Tharja, for example (because she's my favorite blade mage and one of the best three infantry for it IMO): She has 32 base atk+13 with her 5* weapon (45) with the same buffs you gave Merric (+14), so total 59. Also I threw in Darting Blow for a few more doubles+it's in her basic kit. Special is Vengeance but it doesn't trigger here.

 

Plug it into the mass duel simulator, who does she not orko?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

-The fast and oddly tanky Lon'qu

 

-units with default saph spear/TA (relevant: Cordelia, Azura)

 

-peg knights (relevant: Cordelia and Clair but just for the next week 'cause Clair's SI fodder tbh)

 

-wary fighter armors (Effie, Zephiel)

 

-Odin with R tomebreaker

 

-Nowi, Gwendolyn, Peri, and Jagen, because who needs any of that crap when you have oodles of Res/HP (Relevant: Nowi)

 

-Survivor Count: 15.

 

-Relevant threats that live: SIX.

 

-Relevant meta threats that can even kill tharja next turn: THREE. 

 

-With a dancer? She KOs all of them. Except Odin. wtf Odin.

 

Notable units that Tharja KOs that merric doesn't: all those fast red swords, all those high-res colorless, High-res greens...

 

Notable against-TA ORKOs: Every blue mage and every blue infantry except Nowi and Azura.

 
 

 

 

So tl;dr Tharja smashes almost every unit in the game, and out of those that survive, every single one dies if tharja is danced (or to a strong breeze, in many cases). Plus, with a dancer and reposition, you can safely move your death artillery around the map, letting you assassinate single enemies and leave. With Desperation and a dancer, you never get hit unless you want to be (or on your first counter) so why would you care about defenses.

 

 

Merric, with darting blow/desper, fails to ko Thirty units. And, if you look down the list, it's all due to how slow he is. Blade mages need speed in order to get their blade procs doubled. Also, his defenses aren't actually that good, because he's so slow. 

 

Nino, same stuff, fails to KO fourteen units. She even OHKOs Effie and the Tikis! That's not the same KO list at all! 

 

Relevant units that Nino can't kill (by your standards of relevance): Hector, Ryoma, Lilinia, Sanaki, Zephiel.

 

Note who isn't on this list: Marth, Lucina, Alm, Lyn, Draug (who is actually a VERY relevant threat), Effie, the Tikis... A whole load of really scary threats that ms. does-her-best just trashes, where merric either fails to Ko or loses outright!

 

The ONLY reason to use bladetome on merric is because you like merric, nothing else. even then, you're still just a cut-rate Nino/Cecilia/S!Camilla.

 

Sorry for the rant but why would you put GB+ on someone with such terrible offenses whyyyyyyyy 

 

Also IMO tharja is the best blade mage for her ability to take one (1) hit from Kagero or Takumi, and also because she has TA on the relevant high-res mages (basically Julia and Nino) while still ko-ing the best blue mage (linde). also unlike linde she has the defense to revenge-KO a ton of non-brave attackers with her buffs up. 

 

You've gone waaaaay off track for two simple reasons. One, I designated at the beginning that the Merric NEEDS to be +Spd to outperform other Gronnblade wielders, so discounting IVs already invalidates your argument against me. Secondly, we were talking about Gronnblade users, not bladetome users in general, so talking about Tharja is irrelevant. I already acknowledged that Tharja is the best Rauorblade user above, though it's a pretty obvious deduction as she's the only one with Spd. That being said you did make some false claims.

 

"With Desperation, defenses don't matter" I would not agree to this at all, you kill your enemy before they can attack (and tbh Desperation isn't that fantastic on ranged units anyway because the majority of their targets won't be able to retaliate) for sure, but Desperation doesn't save you from the unit that attacks you on their phase. Defenses are always still important, you can never discount their value.

 

"60x2 wins games" have you ever heard of overkill? The highest HP stat in the game is 55, so in actual fact 28x2 is what wins games. Nino is overkill in all of it's glorious nature, but by its very definition it is unnecessary. Even Merric with a Bladetome can reach the levels of Atk necessary to kill what you need your green mage to kill.

 

"Neutral Nino can OHKO neutral Effie" I don't know how you do your maths but let me break it down for you. Nino has a neutral Atk of 33, which is boosted to 46 with the Gronnblade+, which under a buff status of 14 brings her Atk up to 60. 60*1.2 (for the weapon triangle advantage) is 72, which when you subtract neutral Effie's 23 Res is 49 damage. Neutral Effie has 50 HP. 

 

"Why would you put GB+ on someone with such terrible offenses?" because under a condition of access to buffs, bladetomes render the Atk stat obsolete. +Spd Merric has enough Spd to double the majority of the cast with a Hone Spd buff and Darting Blow, yet spends more of his points on bulk. That can only be an advantage.

[Maelstrom]

Idk where all these stupid permadeath rumors started. They've announced idk how many times that it doesn't work that way.

 

This is a very simple, very common stamina type battle mode. You simply can't continue to use them in the same challenge attempt. Once you lose all your units to the overwhelming odds (or call it quits before you're wiped out and all your score and progress is lost, depending on how they set up the mode), your attempt ends, your score is tallied, and then you start over in a new attempt later. No units lost. It's like saying you lose your units in arena battles the way you could in FE7 and others.

Unbunch your panties, people.

[Chase]

Thanks for the clarification, guys.

 

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I think Sheep is right in saying Merric is viable because the bladetome boosts stack when you have some boosts from other sources (Sieglinde, Goad/Ward/Hone,Cav/Flier/whatever) providing enough attack for him to do some work with the tome while keeping his better rounded out stats.

 

I like overkill personally, because if a unit is a master at something you can build a team around that unit - but Merric statistically is able to take hits better than Nino and is still very much able to use the tome effectively.

 

As to which unit is BETTER for using the tome....well, that depends on playstyle. For me, I would pick Nino over Merric because I don't particularly want my infantry mages getting hit at all in the first place, so it's only a matter of dealing as much damage as possible.

 

---

 

List of Projects:

 

Robin: the Takumi Counter: So, not much has to be done to make Robin able to eat tacos without indigestion here. He already comes stock with the magic Blue Jays, so Takumi isn't safe from because he's a grey unit out of the box. The only skill I think I want (out of awareness at the moment, not in general) on Robin is Bowbreaker just to drive the point across. I already have the Setsuna in progress for the ritual...

 

Cecilia, the Bladerunner: This essentially makes Cecilia a little better than average against Blue units. She's the only magic cavalier I have at the moment, and she comes stock with Toucan Sam, giving me another option against Takumi right out of the box. I want to replace this with Gronnblade, because it allows Cecilia to start dishing out pain.

 

Lukas: I haven't decided if I want Death Blow on him or not, but essentially he'll be replacing Effie as a defense oriented character because he has better move. And I'm hyped for Shadows of Valencia.

 

Hinoka, the Knight's Mare. Gotta get that Heavy Lance.

[Maelstrom]

Is it bad that this is the only Grand Hero Challenge where I've completed the hard version of it?

 

I think I put too much stock in my one staple team and didn't really play around with different compositions like I should have. The simple substitution for Eirika was a huge hint towards that. And I keep forgetting that being around 32 or 35 instead of a full 40 really doesn't really keep a unit from being competitive with 40's. I have a few more characters I can actually use in those kinds of battles than I realized.

 

It does help a shitton to have 99 energy to burn to try out different strategies and figure things out. For instance, that mage on the left kept surviving Kagero's attack by 1 Hp. I gave her the atk +1 seal and she took him out with exactly enough damage. Meanwhile, base Takumi was basically getting murdered by those mages. I should really do something with him or give him up to put Close Counter on Kagero. Heh, then I'd really need to find a way to put Vantage 3 on her to make full use of it...

 

Anyways, here's how I finally got it done. I set up Kagero on the left the first turn, but still out of anyone's range. Next turn, she moves up to kill him from over the wall. Then Azura danced, and I moved Kagero right 1, down 1- which is just within range of the red mage on the right and still out of range of the knight guarding him. The mage suicided against Kagero and after that I was free to follow the previously mentioned tactic of attacking with Cecilia and then dancing to move out of next turn's range. Cuz man, both those knights with swap and brave weapons would have wrecked anybody trying to come in with a weapon advantage. Took a while to take the two knights and Zephiel though. Would have been faster if I had given Cecilia that poison strike, but it still finally worked out.

[doombotmecha]

13 hours ago, Sheep said:

 

Firstly I agree that Merric is far more resource intensive for little if any gain, but I wasn't asked which was more realistic, I was asked which was best. I took it as a theoretical exercise in determining which unit had the best statline to wield a Gronnblade+. Nino's starting skill set under these conditions is irrelevant as Merric can obtain all of it. Also, it's actually 46 vs 39 Atk at base. As far as Nino's higher Res goes it's not an advantage at all due to her very low HP, Nino has insufficient bulk to live a strong physical hit, and enough bulk to live 1 strong magical hit, while Merric also has enough bulk to live one strong magical hit (you'd need 60 Atk on neutral to OHKO -HP +Spd Merric, exactly the same amount as Nino) but he also has the bulk to live multiple physical attacks. So what you really have here are two mages, one who has more Atk and 1 point higher Spd, and the other who has much more physical bulk, their overall magical bulk is pretty similar. And seeing as I already showed that Nino's Atk is overkill, because Merric can achieve kills on all of the non-red units that she can under a pretty realistic condition of a buff of 14 points total, there's not much reason to say that Nino is better in a theoretical sense. You say that Merric won't double the fastest units, unlike Nino, but +Spd Merric sits at 39 Spd after a Hone Spd buff, which he could push up to 45 with Darting Blow. That seems like it's going to double the fastest units, and remember that I specified the fact that the Merric NEEDS to be +Spd, otherwise he's not the best Gronnblade+ user. I will acknowledge one valid point that you made though, Gronnblade+ +Spd Merric is completely dependent on buffs to work, while Nino's higher Atk, though irrelevant after buffs, is very important in the absence of buffs.

 

 

You've gone waaaaay off track for two simple reasons. One, I designated at the beginning that the Merric NEEDS to be +Spd to outperform other Gronnblade wielders, so discounting IVs already invalidates your argument against me. Secondly, we were talking about Gronnblade users, not bladetome users in general, so talking about Tharja is irrelevant. I already acknowledged that Tharja is the best Rauorblade user above, though it's a pretty obvious deduction as she's the only one with Spd. That being said you did make some false claims.

 

"With Desperation, defenses don't matter" I would not agree to this at all, you kill your enemy before they can attack (and tbh Desperation isn't that fantastic on ranged units anyway because the majority of their targets won't be able to retaliate) for sure, but Desperation doesn't save you from the unit that attacks you on their phase. Defenses are always still important, you can never discount their value.

 

"60x2 wins games" have you ever heard of overkill? The highest HP stat in the game is 55, so in actual fact 28x2 is what wins games. Nino is overkill in all of it's glorious nature, but by its very definition it is unnecessary. Even Merric with a Bladetome can reach the levels of Atk necessary to kill what you need your green mage to kill.

 

"Neutral Nino can OHKO neutral Effie" I don't know how you do your maths but let me break it down for you. Nino has a neutral Atk of 33, which is boosted to 46 with the Gronnblade+, which under a buff status of 14 brings her Atk up to 60. 60*1.2 (for the weapon triangle advantage) is 72, which when you subtract neutral Effie's 23 Res is 49 damage. Neutral Effie has 50 HP. 

 

"Why would you put GB+ on someone with such terrible offenses?" because under a condition of access to buffs, bladetomes render the Atk stat obsolete. +Spd Merric has enough Spd to double the majority of the cast with a Hone Spd buff and Darting Blow, yet spends more of his points on bulk. That can only be an advantage.

http://andyiverson.me/apps/fehmasssimulator/

 

plugged in:

 

Nino

Nuetra---actually, since you mentioned +spd, +spd -def.

Gronnblade+

 

....oh! That's where we differed! I was assuming Hone atk, while you were referencing the +3 from Eirika's weapon. this lead to me using 2 extra points of attack than you were using for Merric.

 

let's try that again.

 

oooh, ok. Nino NEEDS a full Hone/Rally Attack buff, or another buff from another source, or +atk to OHKO effie. with +14 buffs she just barely fails to KO, leaving effie at 1 health. She'll also need another buff to deal with an Effie that is +res or hp without a bane in either stat.

 

 

Ok, now back to merric. gronnblade+, default everything else...OH JESUS CHRIST oh wait that's without buffs. Friendly reminder, Merric is trash without buffs.

 

+spd -def because he can't spare offenses and with -res other green mages murderize him on the counter

 

+3 atk +4 spd +4 res 'cause I like boosting res so +14

 

Sidenote that under these conditions, Merric fails to KO 42 units and that, as I've stated previously, the best use for a blade mage in my opinion is to KO one or two things every round

 

Merric fails to KO effie with 10 hp left, which is not a difference that can be made up with natures or more buffs. While Merric survives Effie's attack, due to the fact that there are other enemies, Merric cannot stay in effie's range safely. He must retreat, with a dancer's assistance, or else stay and KO effie with his danced attack. 

 

So, we have: 

-KOs with literally 1 more point of attack from anything, up to and including +3 attack

 

-KOs with 4 +4 buffs and Death Blow 2/Life and Death 3

 

Who's the better attacker?

 

However, the real difference between them isn't in winning with-ta matchups. I could just use TA Gronnraven for that, and be much tankier. The real test is against TA. Nino, same +14 +spd -def as before, KOs exactly half of all red units. Merric KOs 1/8. Really now. A whole buffet of really trashy red swords and even Henry that Nino can deal with but Merric can't. 

 

You see, it all comes back to Coverage. In pokemon, Coverage is Life. You give your dragon a steel move, so it can break past fairies. In Fe:H, you don't have coverage moves, but what you do have is a blade mage that can do her job, and one that can.......sometimes. If he has the right IVs. If he initiates. Without SI.

 

Do you want your streak to be broken by a Sanaki? or do you want your streak broken by 0-SI Henry? Do you want to KO a -res effie or not?

 

 

question: what in tarnation are you using those defenses for? is he gonna be your tank too? imo I'd rather use a dedicated tank for that, like Nowi or Zephiel.

 

edit: there are things I haven't covered yet, will come back.

 

You said earlier that with buffs, offenses don't matter. My point is exactly the opposite. With Desperation and a Dancer, defenses don't matter. You simply will not get hit as long as you reduce all you survey to rubble before it can hit you. This is the essence of the "OHKO meta". 

 

You have also said that "defenses do matter because enemies can initiate on you" (mildly paraphrased, correct me if I'm dilluting the message)

 

Well, all my blade mage teams include dancers, specifically to move them out of danger with the combination of moving behind the dancer and then using Draw Back or Reposition. (Useful note: Reposition is better if you aren't using your dancer to fight ie Underleved Olivia, DB is better if you are ie Nino/Azura). These dancers can also carry a buff for the blade mage, and the danced attack can let you either break down a wall (literally or figuratively), or take out two enemies in a turn, which can be devastating if you can take out the units that threaten the rest of your team.

 

Secondly, let's go back to the Duel Sim, and look at defending matchups. +spd -def, again if you want a different bane I can get it. Still 33 inconclusives for merric, only 8 losses tho.

 

.....but if you let the enemy attack again, you lose almost all of them. Are those matchups just not relevant? Are we assuming that you get the positioning to not get hit by them? So, why can't we assume that you'd give the positioning to Nino, and just have her never get hit?

 

Sure Nino gets trashed if you let a melee get to her, but that's far less likely because Nino actually kills stuff, while merric just sits around trading blows until the other guy falls over. 

 

Overall, I feel like Units in FEH should be specialized. I want my tank to tank, and I want my killer to kill. My Ephraim can take on any physical hit that comes my way, so there's no need for Tharja to just stand in front of an enemy lancer. The other point that I'd like to make is that every blademage team needs a dancer. You have what is essentially an artillery piece, what else could you want but the chance to fire it again, or to move it out of harm's way?

 

Merric can take a hit, sure, but he still needs a tank to protect him from red swords, and another dps type to finish off res walls, and a dancer, and something to protect him from red mages.

 

So.....what does merric do?

 

Meanwhile Tharja and Nino Kill Everything. My tharja often KOs 3/4 of the enemy team, with the rest of the team just positioning around her to bait enemies away from her. The only thing I don't totally rip open is peg knights and TA blues, which Anna and Ephraim dunk on. I have 1 units whos job is damage, so I can spread other jobs around the rest of the team. Without sufficient offensive potential, you have to keep kiting back to avoid losing a unit, and eventually you just run out of room.

 

Secondly, Merric has Hard Counters, units that, without an applicable skill, can just run him over. Glass cannon mages have fewer, owing to the fact that they only need to take one (1) attack, and can then attack with impunity. For instance, during this last GHB, Desperation was crucial to killing the blue mage, because I needed to bait it out and kill it without letting it attack back due to its Seal Attack skill. Also, I couldn't stay in range of the knights, because they all had brave weapons and would make mincemeat of me. Thirdly, if tharja tried to fight the blue mage, even with buffs, she'd die. So, I baited the AI a bit, and then used her on the red mage, killing him and dropping her into desperation range. Now, while I still couldn't KO the mage on my own, and I needed Nile's special to help damage the mage, Tharja's desperation let her KO the blue mage without taking damage in return. 

 

With merric? he can try and attack, sure, and the enemy will respond, but then one of the knights would have hit swap and now if you want to smack the mage again (with -7 attack, mind you), you have to walk in front of a brave weapon. Also note that those mages had Warding Blow, which would've meant that the mage would take next to no damage when they countered on the next turn.

 

TL;DR when I want things dead, I want them dead now, and not in 3 or 4 turns. When I want things to tank, I want them to tank, and not take one hit and then have to retreat/flee before any red sword. Positioning with a dancer, along with Desperation to eliminate counterattacks, means that blade-mages take very little in the way of hits. 60x2 is not overkill when there are vanilla units that it cannot kill. it's not even enough. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by doombotmecha

[Commander]

Okay...I think this convo has been beaten to death at this point. Bulk is not a bad thing on a unit and has its uses just as this app relies heavily on the weapon triangle. Any longer this convoy goes on it might get ugly.

 

@Maelstrom Other than Narcian and Ursula, I've beaten all the Lunatic modes though if those were released now, I probably would be able to beat them. Robin and Ursula had some exclusives for themselves, but Tomebreaker G and Iotes Shield are the only two huge ones to miss. Not really a big deal if you did. Zephiel does have the weary fighter skill which that or lnd are two great skills to pass.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

1 minute ago, Commander said:

Okay...I think this convo has been beaten to death at this point. Bulk is not a bad thing on a unit and has its uses just as this app relies heavily on the weapon triangle. Any longer this convoy goes on it might get ugly.

 

@Maelstrom Other than Narcian and Ursula, I've beaten all the Lunatic modes though if those were released now, I probably would be able to beat them. Robin and Ursula had some exclusives for themselves, but Tomebreaker G and Iotes Shield are the only two huge ones to miss. Not really a big deal if you did. Zephiel does have the weary fighter skill which that or lnd are two great skills to pass.

On the first part is has, and it's celar that part is due to what people value ((Bulk over pure offense.)) So it's not worth continuing at this point anymore. Folks need to agree to disagree. ((like as much as I'm arguing with about things with you Sheep I don't think you're wrong... I just don't value bulk on Blade tomes at all. The more offense the more consistant they are. Further you're assuming Merric will be facing base kits which to be fair I was at times too but... SI really makes things way more hairy and player controlled units are always better than AI controlled. I'm sure you've fought plenty of Hectors in the arena by now and noticed... they are kinda garbage cause you can get around everything that makes Hector scary when a Player is using him cause the AI isn't smart enough to not fall for easy baits and traps.))

 

TBH... most units are pretty viable if you actually sink time into them. Like I'm honestly surprised how useful I've been able to make Oboro who before SI was considered one of the worst units in the game period. ((I had to killa Hector to do it ye... but I hate armours personally so... hate me all ya want :P)) And if I'm honest Merric's bulk might be more important on a team you don't need him to do the extra KOs Nino can get etc... It's give and take really. ((I should note though without Bulk being a consdieration... Nino can freely use LnD as can many other mages that don't care about it. Though... Linde for example is actually so low on Def she doesn't even use LnD, preferring just darting blow))

 

also, no offense meant by this @Commander but why do you keep calling it weary fighter? Unless Effie and Zephiel are just super tucjered out from having to take hits all day.  ((tbh... it's a freaking great mental image and every time I see it makes me laugh so figured I'd say something XD>))

 

Also... I think you mean Blue Tomebreaker. Green Tomebreaker is attainable on Henry. ((though it's not particularly useful cept for like maybe on Julia so she can defeat other greens more easily due to her rather lacklustre speed stat.)) F!Robin has Blue TOmebreaker though which is still exclusive to GHBs. 

 

Also... can we talk about Zpehiel having Life and Death being the weirdest thing? It's actually completely awful on his kit cause it's actually... literally impossible for him to double anyone in the game but Sophia. So you lose a crapload of defense on him to get effectively 5 attack... so Deathblow is just flat better... It's WEIRD AND IT BUGS ME. It make for better fodder if it finished prior to 5* but... it don't. which is grrrr.

 

Hopefully we get more sources of Iote's and Blue Tomebreaker, be nice to have more access to them out of limited sources. ((there will actually be another like this, which is the Shield Skill for Horses as only Camus will have itwhen he's released. That one isn't really that great though cause like... who runs Wolf tomes, unless they jsut haven't been able to SI stuff to that unit yet?))

 

10 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Is it bad that this is the only Grand Hero Challenge where I've completed the hard version of it?

Not really I know your not working on a load of units. GHB tend to need more speific things to take them down. Like Navarre's is super trivial so long as you have T!Adept MRobin. Ursula's can be beat just by having Hector... etc. There's a person who does Youtube videos using only 3 stars of the Hero Battle ((the ones that have that map rotation where they are free like Olivia etc.)) and other Grand Hero Battle units. I don't know how to find their channel though since they are from Japan so everything is in Japanese lol. But basically... I've seen many a Subaki facetank entire maps for days.

[doombotmecha]

@Commander  understood, will shut up abt that now. 

 

Michalis was the first GHB that I was high-level enough to do lunatic on, got it on Navarre and Zephiel too. It's really all about your collection--quantity trumps position on the tier list, because even wierdos like subaki can be made useful in a GHB.

 

I think that we're gonna get more units with B tomebreaker, but not Iote's Shield, just because that's not a generic name, and only one unit has Svallin Shield. However, we're slated to get a F!Robin and Navarre rerun on monday (something I heard on the subreddit), so someday we'll get a michalis rerun too, hopefully. Idk why they aren't rerunning Narcian...I missed him entirely due to how low-level I was. 

 

Also I've been trying to make my cav team work with Cecilia instead of Jagen for bonus points, but ughhh....archers still mess me up, partly because Cecilia just doesn't have the raw defense to fight them. I wish I had TA fodder but all I have is Cordelia....There's no way I'm sacrificing her for TA 2 for Cecilia. hmph.

 

According to my research, Cecilia loses straight up if she initiates on all but 4 ninjas/archers, at 4 stars. 

 

Also I pulled with my last 5 for this banner and got another goddamn est. end me. She doesn't even have any useful skills, barring, like, shove! Her weapon is a heavy spear! her skills are defiant res and seal speed! what the hell!

 

I have like 3 of her at 3* level 1, and a +2 3* est that I'm using for the flier quests.

 

Also, my training team rn is Azura/Zephiel/Cecilia/A!Tiki. Once I get to around level 15 I'll ditch Cecilia for the Nino I have around that level, but I'm keeping A!Tiki 'cause I really want to make her work. why are the only adult dragons all sub-par?

 

@Hukuna the Undying First off it does give zeph that attack when he's defending...but yeah I'd just rather have the defense then too. I'm thinking of inheriting another A skill so I can level him, but I don't have death blow or Fury 3. I'm thinking maybe +defense and Swap from one of my Stahls, so he can move around better. What do you think?

 

What build are you using for Oboro? I know you said DC, what are you using with it? I'd figure Lancebreaker/QR but I forget her speed tier. She was actually my main blue before I pulled Ephraim, I still have a 4*+2 of her hanging out in my box.

 

also I think its funny that you hate armors and happen to love a unit with a heavy lance but thats prolly just me

Edited April 23, 2017 by doombotmecha

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

21 minutes ago, doombotmecha said:

Also I pulled with my last 5 for this banner and got another goddamn est. end me. She doesn't even have any useful skills, barring, like, shove! Her weapon is a heavy spear! her skills are defiant res and seal speed! what the hell!

What's funny... Est isn't even bad... like her statline is pretty solid. It's jsut all... of her skills... suuuuuuuuuuuck... like you said. Funnily enough she suffers from the same thing Oboro does.

 

25 minutes ago, doombotmecha said:

 

@Hukuna the Undying First off it does give zeph that attack when he's defending...but yeah I'd just rather have the defense then too. I'm thinking of inheriting another A skill so I can level him, but I don't have death blow or Fury 3. I'm thinking maybe +defense and Swap from one of my Stahls, so he can move around better. What do you think?

Yeeeeeeea, but the defs drops aren't worth keeping the attack on defense. Since you lose res and you'll be all the more likely to be ohko'd by Linde and crew and not even be able to counter with that damage you are getting. LnD is actively makinf Zephiel worse. Like losing that bulk ain't worth it and it really doesn't save you from getting doubled by anything if Wary Fighter is down so like you just get so much detriment out of it.

 

As for skills, I doubt you have Distant Counter if you don't have Death Blow or Fury 3. It's another option though if a Bulky Red is better for you than a bulky green, but it... ain't a budget option. Sadly Fury and Death Blow are probably the best skills for him for A, but Defense Plus should be fine for a budget option.

 

For support skills, Pivot, Swap or Reposition. These three basically all work the same with some differences. Pivot is the most aggressive option and allows you to move 3 spaces with an armour. ((as the other side o your ally adds +2 spaces moved.)) Swap is two spaces but does the same thing functionally. Repostion however is a more defensive option probably best used with a mage. They run forward, blow something else, Zeph pulls them back two spaces. Reposition however tends to be reserved for Flying units ((as they can do silly silly shit with it due to being able to move over any space.)) so unless you really want the more defensiveness... I'd save Repos for fliers that you want to use.

Also, Reprisal works fine as a special for him as a note. Damage ones tend to be highly inconsistant. But Wary Fighter keeps you from being OHKO'd a lot so you canuse it to pretty great effect on the big guy. Bonfire is a less risky choice though.

 

40 minutes ago, doombotmecha said:

What build are you using for Oboro? I know you said DC, what are you using with it? I'd figure Lancebreaker/QR but I forget her speed tier. She was actually my main blue before I pulled Ephraim, I still have a 4*+2 of her hanging out in my box.

 

also I think its funny that you hate armors and happen to love a unit with a heavy lance but thats prolly just me

IVs, +Res, -HP ((the HP is NOT ideal. I want -Spd becuase her speed tier is literal garbage.))

 

A: Distant Counter

B: Quick Riposte 2 ((will get 3 whenever I can afford but 2 works pretty much as well so that down the line.))
C: Threaten Atk 3 ((drops their attack on approach and increases Oboro's personal tanking ability. However one can run Speed here to make her teammates deal more damage.))

Seal: +3 HP ((mostly to patch the less than ideal -HP. She'd still have it regardless though.))

 

Eventual Weapon: Killer Lance+

Support Skill: Swap

Special: Bonfire

 

Basically, the idear is to hit stuff for pretty nasty damage if they try to attack her. Her Res lands on 28 with +Res and with her decently high HP she can usually live through most but the strongest of mages ((mostly blade tomes. However she survives every Red/Blue mage default skillsets who aren't named Linde.)) but she'll hit them pretty hard due to their bad defense if they don't have Desperation. ((and outright kill if they can't knock her out.)) with Killer Lance Bonfire always triggers on the second hit with QR usually ending any ranged unit that hits her. ((and a lot of physicals as well.)) Bonfire does pretty high and consistant damage due to her defense being really solid.

As a note she beats most Default Lance Users with this build without needing Lancebreaker. The only one she can't really deal with is Effie for sure but she won't take too much from any of them. ((and she basically takes pretty much nothing from most swords.)) so Quick Riposte is much more preferred as it helps her deal with rnaged units WAY better and nets you the Bonfire kill right then and there everytime without having to move out of position and attack the next turn. ((her default of Seal Defense is still usable as a budget option since she can use it to clean up net turn or allow a teammate to get it for better positioning.))

 

For that last part... I'm only really using Oboro since she's basically my favourite character from Fates. So it's just cause I wanna lol. ((and I don't really hate fighting armours I love seeing armours in arena agianst me... it's basically a free win cause the AI is shit at using them properly.))

[Chase]

So, I was finally able to promote someone to ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️️. I was essentially racing to see if I would get Red or Green great badges to determine if I promoted Camilla or Tharja first.

 

Green won, so Flier Emblem prevails.

 

Camilla happens to be -HP, +Def, which is about what I expected having used her a whole bunch as a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️.

 

Her value has dramatically increased since Hinoka arrived. The two Fates princesses work extraordinarily well together despite being arch rivals. Hinoka pushes Camilla's Attack and Speed to greatly effective levels, while Camilla deals with enemy blues and greens with Savage Blow, giving Hinoka a shot at cleaning up units she may struggle with.

 

That being said, Camilla almost needs a flier that spurs or goads the Air Force, because she is a Jack of all - but mistress of none when it comes to stat distribution. As an Enemy Phase unit, her defenses are even Steven, which is a positive over other wyverns, but she really wants Iote's Shield in order to really own the defensive role she often plays on my team. She gets knocked on EP because of being tied to the Brave Axe.

 

The worst thing though, is that Red and Takumi Emblem dominates the meta right now. That's certainly not a spa day for Camilla at all. 

 

I find that she's exceptional in most player phases, and serviceable depending on the opposing army on enemy phase. Hinoka or an equivalent makes for a much better Camilla - and I'm covered there. 

 

What should she consider skill wise?

 

 

[Commander]

So the problem with Camilla is that she's a well rounded unit with skills designed for a unit that isn't so well rounded. Her biggest fault is the brave axe since 38 attack is not impressive and reds will shrug it off (pretty sure Y!Tiki looks at that amazing 0 damage and gets excited as her special builds up). She can bulk a hit or two, but bulk can only take you so far (which is why I like Minerva as she requires almost no investment to be good with LnD...and mine has +Spd -Def). Death Blow is going to let her hit harder adding plus 6 to each attack as 44 attack is what she needs to go on the offensive. Darting blow isn't bad, but...you need a supporter to make it work. As for the B-Skill...Desperation is a little risky with your low HP, but it could work well with Ardent Sacrifice...but Camilla with -HP is kind of bad and you'd lose some needed HP to survive an attack. Shove/Pivot are two very useful skills to help her move around (Trust me, Tellius teaches you the importance of shove strats). The rest your army should feel what they need.

 

Now if you really don't care about keeping 1 of every unit, find the closest 5 star axe user in your army and sack them to give Camilla a better weapon. She needs to have an attack above 40 otherwise she won't be doing much damage (it's not hard to make her double either). I tried using a 4 star one for a little bit, but I wasn't a fan (I preferred Michalis over her). Fliers just have a lot of versatility so it's kind of what you want Camilla to do (she has some bulk unlike the glass cannon Minerva who shreds through anything with 37 speed and lower who doesn't use a sword). Death Blow is my personal recommendation as Reinhardt...even without that move...rips through stuff like it's nothing so Camilla would perform similarly with that A skill.

[5hift]

On 4/22/2017 at 6:07 PM, Fabled Asian said:

I'm so torn on this Camilla thing, I already spent 20k feathers to make my Robin-F a GR+/TA user, but now I gotta do it for Camilla as well? Or should I just sac Robin.

Nah keep Fem-Robin.

 

IMO it'd be pretty pointless for your anti-Takumi/every colorless unit be super weak against Takumi and archers.

 

Both Robins are fairly bulky with no huge weaknesses.

[doombotmecha]

Ok, I can see that. Any Hectors I get, if I end up not making an armor emblem team, will probably be fed to Ephraim to make him a better tank. He already has QR 2 and Swap, he's my strongest melee rn.

 

jesus chase that's a lot of slang. I only ever used my camilla as res bait for mages, so I could wipe them out on the next turn. Mine was -spd though, worse luck.

[Chase]

Doesn't Reinhardt have a brave tome though - or did you swap it out?

 

Death Blow certainly sounds worth picking up - but because I have Hinoka, I do have the support to make Camilla thrive with Darting Blow, while also getting +6 Attack to play with.

 

I'm sure any B skill is better than nothing - so keep throwing suggestions! Desperation seems like a real gamble.

 

I'm not overtly attached to the Brave Axe set, but I don't have anything close to another axe to inherit. I was thinking Killer Axe+ though - because Camilla would then proc DracoGaze on every other action.

 

(yeah. Next ill start using Texan slang and it will get even worse. Sorry.)

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

5 minutes ago, Chase said:

Doesn't Reinhardt have a brave tome though - or did you swap it out?

He does. Deathblow is pretty much the only A skill other than Fury worth running on him due to jsut how low his speed is. It's really his most viable option with Fury for a little more bulkyiness ((and because it bumps up his really lacklustre BST. Which... while not as crazy a factor as it once was, is still some part of arena scoring))

 

 

12 minutes ago, Chase said:

Death Blow certainly sounds worth picking up - but because I have Hinoka, I do have the support to make Camilla thrive with Darting Blow, while also getting +6 Attack to play with.

Cam has base 32 spd or 35 with +Speed nature. Brave Axe takes this down 5 so she'll have 27/30 spd. With Hinoka's buff this brings her to 33 spd/36. I'll be honest while she will double((a.k.a Brave Quad)) a fair few units, she doesn't get them without Darting Blow. Darting might still be the way to go as the +6 from Hone Fliers should help her damage by putting her at around... 42ish attack with Brave.

Honestly the biggest issue with Camilla is she's not well built for Brave axes but further... all the skills she could really really use are expensive and highly sought after or rare.
 

1 hour ago, Commander said:

 Shove/Pivot are two very useful skills to help her move around (Trust me, Tellius teaches you the importance of shove strats).

Reposition > Other Move Skills for fliers. They can use a lot more utility with Reposition than any other unit and it's... a little disgusting. But as they can move over unpassable terrian they can ferry units across mountains/water or help other units traverse forest tiles without losing move, or if they can't. ((Cavs.)) Those options aren't bad just the utility that comes from Repos on fliers can't be underestimated. If Hinoka runs it though @Chase, instead run Ardent Sac or Reciprocal Aid if using Desperation. Both give Camilla the ability to be a psuedo-healer and a safer way to activate Despy. You can run the other two suggested here as well though if you want that utility in the team. ((Shove is super good for nudging stuff into/out of range.))

 

Fun thing... Camilla is actually a really good mage slayer due to her rather weirdly high res ((espically for a Wyvern Rider.)) However the build is rather hard to put together due to needing Distant COunter. ((so unless you got spare Hectors to burn lol.))

If you go with Killer Axe Iceberg is an option. It'll do more damage than Drac Aura at that point since it does 17. However as you already have Drac Aura and it's serviceable really up to you.

 

Silver Axe is another Weapon option. Problem though... it's only on 5* Gunter. And well that's not rollable so you have to spend 20k feathers on it. I... don't recommend.

 

Sorry if that's hard to follow I'm sorta rushing this post cause I'm doing stuff but want to throw out my two cents. Hopefully it's somewhat coherent...?

[Sheep]

With the Hone Fliers support I'd definitely be looking to keep the Brave Axe and Darting Blow, as that lets you quad anything 33 Spd or lower. Death Blow on Camilla isn't really comparable with Death Blow on Reinhardt or Olwen because most of the meta has much less Res than Def, meaning it's much easier for them to achieve a kill in two hits. By exchanging the Brave Axe for a Silver Axe or a Killer Axe you're spending a lot of feathers and characters to essentially create a worse Minerva. I know you don't have Minerva, but you also said you feel like Camilla outclasses Minerva so I don't see why you'd do that. I'd probably look to Luna over Iceberg or Draconic Aura though, as it is the high Def units that you're going to need help killing, and they're all on the same cooldown. As for your B and C skills the best you could do is probably Renewal/Seal Def and Fortify/Goad Fliers. Renewal helps her tank, Seal Def gives you a free 14 (or 28) damage when retaliating in your phase against a unit that attacked you in their phase, Fortify and Goad Fliers are just easily accessible flier buffing skills to keep the synergy between Camilla and Hinoka going, it's up to you as to which you'd prefer. Oh and I'm with Huk on Reposition, that's great on fliers.

 

tl;dr Brave Axe+, Reposition, Luna, Darting Blow, Renewal/Seal Def, and Fortify/Goad Fliers.

[Chase]

Ooh. a vote in FAVOR of the Brave Axe (given the circumstances - but still, it counts.)

 

I have been pleased with Hinoka+Brave Axe, personally. Of course, many of you are much more involved with Arena matches than I am, so when trying to do things like quests, you -DON'T- run into Reds and Takumis all the time. Under that parameter, Camilla doesn't have so much to worry about. If I run into a Red Mage, I have Tharja or Ryoma counter it from a distance with his Raijinto/her souped up blade tome. If I run into a Red physical unit, Hinoka (who I have nearby almost on principle) usually has it covered no problem. Bows? Ryoma.

 

I had a feeling the comparison to Reinhardt was a stretch, but Commander, I like the thought. Death Blow gives Camilla the strength she needs to take on some of the enemies she has trouble with when using Darting Blow. The problem is, I like how reliably Camilla quads enemies as is - and to this point I've had other options when Camilla finds her brick walls. Death Blow Camilla sounds powerful. Is it powerful enough to sacrifice Effie or Klein? Not so sure.

 

RENEWAL. HOLY GOD THAT SOUNDS AMAZING. - Even if it's not so amazing, I have a four star Jakob waiting in the wings. This is one of those things that wouldn't be too much of a hassle to do. Especially because Camilla doesn't have a B skill assigned to her that I have to think about giving up. I'll take it. Seal is also something I could do, as I have a great wall of Oboro to sacrifice if I want to, but Renewal just sounds way more fun. I might inherit both B skills, just for the variety.

 

I also really like Fortify Fliers in particular for C, but I'm pretty fond of Savage Blow too - and I don't have someone to pass me it even if I wanted it. That's not a no though. Flier Emblem would be pretty cool having Goad/Hone/Fortify on the same team when I throw Palla in the mix.

 

---

 

After getting Camilla to 5 today, I was able to pick up the enhanced Brave Axe. Maybe this will change my tune about the weapon on Camilla into a more positive one (and with Hinoka around, it just might.)

 

I really am struggling to pick up orbs these days. It's changed my enjoyment to building up my own units, sure...but I am ready for the next paralogue dump.

 

 

 

[Commander]

So...Robin and Navarre are back so I am guessing next week will be Narcian and Michalis...though all I am thinking is...payback, bitches.

 

As for the new rewards, getting two Robins is definitely worth going for as I have done it with a Tiki Priscilla Minerva trinity. Shove on Minerva is probably one of my greatest ideas ever. Anyways Robin comes with a unique skill of Tomebreaker B and the Bonfire skill. Passing those around is definitely worth it. 

 

Navarre though...has desperation and seal speed. As my Takumi will tell you, those skills really aren't worth killing yourself over. Seal speed is hard to activate and only hits about one or two enemies.

 

Then there is the orbs. Oh dear God those are going to be hard. I think I can get all the ones involving Robin, but...Navarre I have bad memories of. That damn moonbow ninja. The units are far, far more valuable than the orbs since the orbs aren't easy to get. Might be some of the hardest orb challenges tbh.

[Chase]

Yes. 2* FRobin get. Ty Intsys.

 

I hate Robins map. So. Much.

[Combat]

Oh good, the two Grand Hero battle I was actually able to beat. Would have been nice of them to let me rematch the ones I couldn't take out originally, but I bet that will come with time. I should probably try to pick up as many of them as possible for skill inheritance, I guess?

[doombotmecha]

33 minutes ago, Chase said:

Yes. 2* FRobin get. Ty Intsys.

 

I hate Robins map. So. Much.

Ohmygosh YES. haha yeah I'll just use my res wall with decent defense that can take attacks from all three colors.....oh wait.....THAT DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST

 

ok maybe there's freaking, like, Hector or Nowi or Vantage Ryoma or something silly like that, but after that Azura my luck is GONE. Plus, I nearly did it with a Horse Emble team, buuuut my blade mage was Ursula and I left her too close to frobin.....rip.

 

at least I have another 2* one now!

 

This really is the worst GHB if you don't have an SS-tier DC unit. 

[Chase]

I cheesed the "easy" one with Ryoma.

[Fabled Asian]

@Chase I see thanks, I'll just save Camilla for a different build

 

I've gotten through Navarre pretty well with the Robin build, problem is how do you kill a Red unit like Navarre with a Green Unit with TA w/o sacrificing my only defense against Ninjas.

[Commander]

Well Navarre was hell...again. It is times like these I wish I had a Zephiel ready to go. Anyways, that map brought back bad memories of moonbow ninja. I hate that enemy so much in the top right corner (also don't know how they double Jafar with 1 point more in speed).

 

The team I used was Takumi, Reinhardt, and Minerva. The really cool thing about plus HP Takumi is that if the ninja on the right hits him, it is just enough to OHKO the ninja with Vengeance. Minerva is the only thing on my team that doesn't get doubled by the other ninja so...thats how that one died after a seal speed. A joint effort of Reinhardt and Takumi took down the rest of the field. Maybe I'll go for Robins Orbs if I grind up Navarre, but Robin...imo ain't worth the trouble with sniper ninjas looming around.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

8 hours ago, Commander said:

 

Navarre though...has desperation and seal speed. As my Takumi will tell you, those skills really aren't worth killing yourself over. Seal speed is hard to activate and only hits about one or two enemies.

 

Then there is the orbs. Oh dear God those are going to be hard. I think I can get all the ones involving Robin, but...Navarre I have bad memories of. That damn moonbow ninja. The units are far, far more valuable than the orbs since the orbs aren't easy to get. Might be some of the hardest orb challenges tbh.

firstly Navarre has Threaten Speed, not Seal. Seal is a B skill. However I don't really argee as Desperation on the right stuff is kinda busted as hell. ((it makes pretty much any fast high damage mage win maps by themselves without much effort.))

 

The Orbs also really arnet' that difficult so long as you have units that dismantle the mpa. You just have to have the units on your team they don't even need to do anything. ((even if they are only lvl 1.))

 

2 minutes ago, Commander said:

Well Navarre was hell...again. It is times like these I wish I had a Zephiel ready to go. Anyways, that map brought back bad memories of moonbow ninja. I hate that enemy so much in the top right corner (also don't know how they double Jafar with 1 point more in speed).

 

The team I used was Takumi, Reinhardt, and Minerva. The really cool thing about plus HP Takumi is that if the ninja on the right hits him, it is just enough to OHKO the ninja with Vengeance. Minerva is the only thing on my team that doesn't get doubled by the other ninja so...thats how that one died after a seal speed. A joint effort of Reinhardt and Takumi took down the rest of the field. Maybe I'll go for Robins Orbs if I grind up Navarre, but Robin...imo ain't worth the trouble with sniper ninjas looming around.

As a note if one has TriAdept MRobin ((or any other decently tanky Raven mage)) that map is pretty much won since the ninjas can't really do anything.

Secondly... Takumi solo'd FRobin's map for me the first time and that was without SI existing at the time. Mine is + Res though so... maybe why. But, ye like... with a dancer he nearly solo'd the map with the only other unit kill going to Lyn on Robin. So honetly you should be fine so long as ou have something that can kill Robin.