The pokemon in Reborn

[GGLL]

Good morning everyone . Today , I've decided to start a topic about a certain that has been kind of bothering me in pokemon reborn and that is the treatment of the pokemon themselves.

      Everyone who has played a mainseries pokemon game would know that alot of emphasis is placed on the pokemon themselves.They are your partners , your friends,a family that will stick with you to the bitter end ,even if you have not been treating them especially well (but you have been nice to them in your own way of course ).The games go out of their way (well , not really ) to remind you that pokemon are sentient beings ,like you, and as such you should  respect them  , else you would be  no better than the various evil organizations that you face in each game .Yet, ever since the beginning of pokemon reborn , pokemon have seemingly been pushed to the sidelines , with characters only barely acknowledging that some pokemon have been hurt or even killed , along with the fact that major trainers (and even pokemon themselves)  seem to have completely forgotten about the bonds they've created with them or , sometimes , even their existence [ Amaria jumps off the waterfall while still having her own pokemon friends on her , putting their lives in needless danger which would seem out of character for her .Later,  her pokemon don't even seem to react to that same event and her amnesia ,despite the fact that her pokemon should be perfectly capable of telling her  about  what happened .Yet the game doesn't even call this actions (or inactions )out .].What's perhaps the common occurence of this is the part where you are ''allowed'' to take a dead trainer's pokemon (Corey's , some other unfortunate victim of Pulse Tangrowth), without really any permission or anyone calling you out (though ,to be fair ,most pokemon would have been left alone with no one to turn to if you don't interfere ), making seem like the pokemon themselves were just added in the game just so you would be able to do something between all the important plot points .

        Admittedly , pokemon reborn is not the only fan game that does this and it's treatment of pokemon is not as bad as it was in earlier episodes ( where Cal threw Kiki's Medicham in the lava without any hesitation and the early game sidequests where fewer )or  other fan games, but it was still something that personally bugged me . 

         Excuse me for that wall of text , everyone . Though, I wonder  what are your thoughts on this matter ?

 

[mde2001]

Reborn is just significantly darker than the main series games. The people in it are often cruel and callous and they are perfectly capable of ignoring certain pokemon. Also, they have much more pressing matters than growing close to their partners. They need them to save the world, but for that they don't need them to be friends, they need them to be strong. In Reborn, the player isn't better than Team Meteor because he/she/xe treats their pokemon better, but because of what they're fighting for. 

 

Players are also going to have a bigger emotional reaction to a developed, human character suffering than a pokemon. So it makes sense that we care more about Kiki's death than Medicham's. We got to know Kiki in a way that we couldn't know pokemon who can't talk. The same logic applies to Corey. 

 

Finally, Reborn isn't meant to be a model society. It is kind of a dystopian city. People abuse, smuggle and don't care for their pokemon properly, but that is realistic in a world where there is such a large percentage of the population in poverty. If you're starving and mistreating pokemon might help you get a meal, you're probably going to mistreat them, or at least not treat them as a friend. 

[seki108]

While I do see your view and everything, I have clarifications/arguments for one point.

1 hour ago, GGLL said:

where Cal threw Kiki's Medicham in the lava without any hesitation

Cal clearly hesitated until ordered a second time but was too weak willed to argue with Solaris at that point.  Only when someone he cared about was got directly harmed did he find the courage.  I doubt he had much interaction personally with Medichan, given not only the language barrier, but also her being another trainer's pokemon.  Just a clarifying nitpick.  I think this is less about Pokemon relations and more with personal relations

 

I was going to put something about Corey too, but it would have been more about Corey's pokemon joining of their own will (especially with you saving Nidorina from Nuzleaf) or something, so i didn't really bother.

 

As MDE above stated while I was typing this, Reborn City (especially pre-restoration) is clearly not the moral pinnacle of society.  While some give you Pokemon for the Pokemon's sake (Krickarot, Lilipup, and Klefki), we also see a drug addict give you his Piplup for another hit.

Edited March 3, 2017 by seki108

[Sirrobert]

Regarding Corey's pokemon, they were released. So even if there were rules, they're free game now.

[Waynolt]

12 minutes ago, seki108 said:

While some give you Pokemon for the Pokemon's sake (Krickarot, Lilipup, and Klefki), we also see a drug addict give you his Piplup for another hit.

And then you proceed to just stuff them in the PC.

You monster. ><

[hope4896]

As much as the main games emphasize the bonds between human and Pokemon. Gamefreak did not make "bonds" a significant  thing in terms of gameplay. The introduction to IVs  stats of different Pokemon is an implementation of the hard cold reality that - TALENTS are more important than bonds, at least in terms of battling.

 

Let's be honest, in Reborn you change your team composition time to time for the sake of winning certain events, if I would use this as a reason to show how our Reborn protagonist treats his Pokemon, he/she/xe really isn't any different from the antagonists in terms of treating Pokemon. Pokemon are really just mere tools to achieve an objective, doesn't matter if you're the good or bad guy. Kinda sad huh? 

 

The same logic applies to a certain Pokemon fanbase, aka the competitive players, understanding that their starter has shit IVs , and their favorite Pokemon are not useful at all in the competitive stage, they're left with no choice but to start a cycle of breed, throw, train and win. Which is why I always thought that Pokemon should never be a thing in real life. 

 

In fact, I actually hope that a Pokemon game where bonds (or friendship) would affect battling significantly other than the move called Return. For example, Pokemon disobeying you no matter what level it is, you have to feed, play, perform dialogues, resting between training and go through multiple dramatic moments with them so they get closer to you, before being a completely reliable partner (Ash's Pikachu for example). I WOULD PAY FOR THAT.

Edited March 3, 2017 by hope4896

[BlackRum]

I take issue with the "major trainers don't aknowledge their pokemon" argument you try to make. Corey's pokemon clearly have a strong bond with him as the scene where he releases shows. Nidorina stops to look back, Crobat refuses to leave until he tells it to go a second time. And yeah, they are free to live their lives and only even acknowledge your presence if you have the silver ring in your inventory. His pokemon don't just follow anybody. They follow you, because you wear their former master's ring. A symbol that shows them you're closely linked to his fate and it shows their loyalty transcends even abandonment and death. As for Amaria jumping off the waterfall. Well what did you expect? She has just been confronted with the harsh reality that the love of her life never really loved her back. She obviously wasn't able to think straight in that situation and it would have destroyed the moment if there would have been a line of dialogue forced in where she goes: "Oh, I'm going to kill myself now, but hold on to my pokemon, cause I don't want them to get wet at the bottom of this waterfall." On the contrary pre Apophyl Amaria compliments and thanks her Lapras for the 'simple' task of using two moves to get on top of the meteor building.

 

Generally I agree with the others here. Reborn has a much darker theme than the main series. It takes a different approach and as such is not required to copy everything that's common in the main games. Also the theme of bonding and acknowledging pokemon as partners and equals, while present from the beginning, has been developed over the generations. I'd say Reborn is on or even a bit above the level of generation 1. There you have Team Rocket as the obvious antagonists who extort pokemon for money and power, some people remarking how that's just not nice and the only people who thematise that more deeply are Mr. Fuji, the elite 4 and professor Oak who tells you at the end you became champion through the power of friendship. Sure the theme is there, but the focus of the storytelling lies elswhere. And I'd say Reborn is quite on the same level. The focus of the story lies in creating a dystopic broken society undermined by fanatics and criminals and weakend by poverty. Obviously you can't just chime in with the happy go lucky approach the main series try to sell to kids and still keep the dark atmosphere, but the underlining theme of working together is still there.

[GGLL]

In regards to seki108 , Cal does show hesitation in the current version but from my knowledge that wasn't added in until episode 12, giving the impression that he didn't really care for medicham up until ame added that in ( you can see that in shofu's playthrough if you want to confirm it ).Even then , he could of felt bad because he thinks that he was striking at his mentor by obeying Solaris and not really because he was ordered to kill medicham .

  

3 hours ago, hope4896 said:

As much as the main games emphasize the bonds between human and Pokemon. Gamefreak did not make "bonds" a significant  thing in terms of gameplay. The introduction to IVs  stats of different Pokemon is an implementation of the hard cold reality that - TALENTS are more important than bonds, at least in terms of battling.

 

Let's be honest, in Reborn you change your team composition time to time for the sake of winning certain events, if I would use this as a reason to show how our Reborn protagonist treats his Pokemon, he/she/xe really isn't any different from the antagonists in terms of treating Pokemon. Pokemon are really just mere tools to achieve an objective, doesn't matter if you're the good or bad guy. Kinda sad huh? 

 

The same logic applies to a certain Pokemon fanbase, aka the competitive players, understanding that their starter has shit IVs , and their favorite Pokemon are not useful at all in the competitive stage, they're left with no choice but to start a cycle of breed, throw, train and win. Which is why I always thought that Pokemon should never be a thing in real life. 

 

In fact, I actually hope that a Pokemon game where bonds (or friendship) would affect battling significantly other than the move called Return. For example, Pokemon disobeying you no matter what level it is, you have to feed, play, perform dialogues, resting between training and go through multiple dramatic moments with them so they get closer to you, before being a completely reliable partner (Ash's Pikachu for example). I WOULD PAY FOR THAT.

The way I see it , the fact that they choose not to have the IVs be displayed to the players because it would turn pokemon into mere numbers if they did ( at least that is what I heard in relation to this topic ) shows that gamefreak doesn't actually want players to view pokemon that way . They propably just added those in so that  pokemon of the same species  can still feel unique compared to each other .Besides, you can still make up for bad IVs by EV training , so talent isn't end-all-be-all, especially since hyper training is a thing . Not to mention that they most likely didn't account for online battling when they first created IVs and EVs (and if they did , they decided on focusing on the single player experience instead of possibly ruin that for online battling). Another thing that you have to take into account is that you , as in the player character , are perfectly capable of having 15+ pokemon at max happiness ,so you do bond with every one of your pokemon .As for the last part , there is the Pokeamie in recent pokemon games , where playing with them and feeding them might make them more powerful later (only for single player ,though ).

2 hours ago, BlackRum said:

I take issue with the "major trainers don't aknowledge their pokemon" argument you try to make. Corey's pokemon clearly have a strong bond with him as the scene where he releases shows. Nidorina stops to look back, Crobat refuses to leave until he tells it to go a second time. And yeah, they are free to live their lives and only even acknowledge your presence if you have the silver ring in your inventory. His pokemon don't just follow anybody. They follow you, because you wear their former master's ring. A symbol that shows them you're closely linked to his fate and it shows their loyalty transcends even abandonment and death. As for Amaria jumping off the waterfall. Well what did you expect? She has just been confronted with the harsh reality that the love of her life never really loved her back. She obviously wasn't able to think straight in that situation and it would have destroyed the moment if there would have been a line of dialogue forced in where she goes: "Oh, I'm going to kill myself now, but hold on to my pokemon, cause I don't want them to get wet at the bottom of this waterfall." On the contrary pre Apophyl Amaria compliments and thanks her Lapras for the 'simple' task of using two moves to get on top of the meteor building.

 

Generally I agree with the others here. Reborn has a much darker theme than the main series. It takes a different approach and as such is not required to copy everything that's common in the main games. Also the theme of bonding and acknowledging pokemon as partners and equals, while present from the beginning, has been developed over the generations. I'd say Reborn is on or even a bit above the level of generation 1. There you have Team Rocket as the obvious antagonists who extort pokemon for money and power, some people remarking how that's just not nice and the only people who thematise that more deeply are Mr. Fuji, the elite 4 and professor Oak who tells you at the end you became champion through the power of friendship. Sure the theme is there, but the focus of the storytelling lies elswhere. And I'd say Reborn is quite on the same level. The focus of the story lies in creating a dystopic broken society undermined by fanatics and criminals and weakend by poverty. Obviously you can't just chime in with the happy go lucky approach the main series try to sell to kids and still keep the dark atmosphere, but the underlining theme of working together is still there.

Personally , I consider pokemon to be (in-universe) almost at the same standing as humans , thus befriending a pokemon might as well mean that you are befriending a human .Which is why I find Amaria throwing herself  along with her pokemon to their death  to be rather out-of-character for her , since she is basically  endangering the lives of her friends , even though part of reason why she attempted suicide was to free her friend from a burden ( that friend was the person she loved though ,but I still don't think that she would have done anything similiar if , for example ,  Julia or Florinia  was threated to be killed if she jumped).Regardless , the fact that her pokemon didn't even attempt to save their trainer by themselves is also part of the reason why I believe the pokemon are rather out of focus in Reborn , or at least in this scene .As for Corey 's pokemon, would they really join forces with the stranger that , in one of the possible story paths, pushed their trainer to suicide with their actions ? The outcome may have been invetable but that still doesn't really absolve the player character of their guilt.At the very least I would have expected all of them to give you a fight before they let you catch , even if you do have the ring . I do sort of agree with the rest , but I guess I still like to  think that the pokemon are individual characters . One could even say that the reason why we don't exactly see the development of our trainer and their pokemon in the mainseries games is the same reason that the player character is mute . We are supposed  to imagine,based on what we already know ,  that they do just interact with each other but what they are actually  doing that brings them together is entirely up to you. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by GGLL
So Julia is so important she got a ''the'' infront of her name

[Egzample]

Take also Taka into account, who feels bad mons suffering when connected to PULSE. It is not like this theme is totally omitted in Reborn, it is rather shown that mons suffer from Meteor the same way people do.

 

By the way, I remember similar changes from the anime series - in the first season, mons were more ''animalistic'', more like beasts befriended by humans with rather simple characters, later on getting more complex personalities, even beside constantly emphasising they should be treated well, just like in the games. It is maybe just my impresion, tough.

[seki108]

I wasn't aware of that change.  

 

23 minutes ago, GGLL said:

Which is why I find Amaria throwing herself  along with her pokemon to their death  to be rather out-of-character for her , since she is basically  endangering the lives of her friends , even though part of reason why she attempted suicide was to free her friend from a burden ( that friend was the person she loved though ,but I still don't think that she would have done anything similiar if , for example , the Julia or Florinia  was threated to be killed if she jumped).Regardless , the fact that her pokemon didn't even attempt to save their trainer by themselves is also part of the reason why I believe the pokemon are rather out of focus in Reborn , or at least in this scene

 

How sturdy Pokeballs are from outside force is something that has never been explored, so it might be a known fact in-universe that they have high enough durability to not be harmed.  At the very least, it seems unlikely they would break before hitting the bottom, thus any Pokemon released would not be taking a full impact.

 

Also, I don't believe that any canon games have Pokemon releasing themselves from their Pokeballs, so how could they save her from inside their balls.  The anime's mechanics don't apply, so unless there is a specific example from 4rth or 6th gen , which I haven't played, they couldn't do anything to help.  We don't even know if Pokemon are fully aware of their trainers surroundings from within.

Edited March 3, 2017 by seki108

[Sirrobert]

25 minutes ago, GGLL said:

the fact that her pokemon didn't even attempt to save their trainer by themselves

How could they? They were in their balls.

Also: DID she have her pokemon with her? We know Titania only had a single one on her, so it's not like every trainer always has his pokemon on their person at all times.

 

EDIT: I also very much don't agree that pokemon are on the standing as humans. We train them to fight for our entertainment. We BREED them.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Sirrobert

[Daniel Blackworth]

12 minutes ago, example said:

Take also Taka into account, who feels bad mons suffering when connected to PULSE. It is not like this theme is totally omitted in Reborn, it is rather shown that mons suffer from Meteor the same way people do.

 

By the way, I remember similar changes from the anime series - in the first season, mons were more ''animalistic'', more like beasts befriended by humans with rather simple characters, later on getting more complex personalities, even beside constantly emphasising they should be treated well, just like in the games. It is maybe just my impresion, tough.

I agree that in the anime the pokemon are having complex personalities. Even if they're just using pokemon language, they show different expressions and emotions. I have seen this both in XY and Sun and Moon.

 

Also, in Reborn, the emphasis of the story is heavily seen in the characters. It explores human nature at its finest and shows how humans adapt to the different stimulus in the ruined world they are in. I do believe that the Pokemon in Reborn mainly serve as a means for them to fight for their goals and i don't think they even have time for bonding and cherishing pokemon. 

 

[ZEL]

The emphasis on your bond with your Pokémon definitely has gotten stronger later on in the main series and hasn't been as much in the focus in the early games. While the games obviously always taught the player "hey, nice trainers are better than people who are mean to their 'mons", Gen V onwards really took it to a new level.

I've always seen the situation in Reborn as, well, typical for Reborn. People overall seem much more disconnected from nature for the most part, with less awareness about the depth of the world around them. I mean, a lot of the people we meet are pretty darn miserable, and such a state can easily lead you to lose your appreciation of and interest in things.

 

But I do remember the little things, at least: like Shelly's comment about the lonely Kricketune and its owner deciding to give it up for its own welfare, the kid who warns you to take good care of Skitty, the man who gets really upset when he loses his Mareep (still wish I could've given it back), Amaria and Cain helping Oshawott, Adrienn's outrage when xe thinks Gardevoir is mistreated, Corey's Crobat... There's plenty of small (and some big) moments that show people caring and being aware of Pokémon as sentient beings who deserve good treatment.

 

It's just an overall much harsher setting, and one that I think isn't entirely unrealistic. Think of the massive amount of pets that get left behind in every catastrophe; it's well known that for example dogs can and will miss their owners when separated, and for as much as many people treat their pets as part of their family, they are still often left behind when things get dangerous.

Even more blatantly, I could rant on for hours about parrots - creatures well known for their high intelligence, some with the cognitive abilities of little children, who can develop trauma and other severe psychological issues when neglected or mistreated. Just look at how often these animals end up in conditions that don't even fulfill the most basic requirements of their care, and how very few people really give them the attention and care they deserve and need to be happy.

Or how easily disregarded animals like pigs are. They are pretty darn smart, but sure aren't treated like that. Because we're so used to thinking of them as nothing but a meat source, and also filthy and ugly.

Humans often barely manage to see each other as equal, I'm not surprised the majority would struggle to give this recognition to nonhuman beings. And that kind of mindset does fit Reborn.

 

I do think it'd be cool to be shown more of the bonds between major characters and their 'mons, though. We see them out of their Pokéballs a lot, and it'd be pretty nice to see some interaction here and there.

 

 

35 minutes ago, example said:

Take also Taka into account, who feels bad mons suffering when connected to PULSE. It is not like this theme is totally omitted in Reborn, it is rather shown that mons suffer from Meteor the same way people do.

Speaking of Meteor, I guess Lumi is the real MVP then.

Spoiler

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by ZEL

[Daniel Blackworth]

If only Pokemon could speak in English lol

[Animefan666]

As badly as the Pokemon are treated by humans, what about the reverse? The way Pokemon treat humans. As you well know, a Pokemon caught by a trainer doesn't just blindly obey there trainer as shown by much of what has already been referenced regarding Corey and Cal's Pokemon. They have a choice. They choose to obey their trainer. When Cal's Pokemon threw Medicham into the lava, it CHOSE to kill it. When Garchomp decapitated Kiki, it chose to do that as well. When Titania and her Aegislash killed all those Team Meteor grunts, it chose to do that too. The Pokemon can be just as cruel as the people.

[DerogatoryTrainer]

Kiki's Medicham is the main reason I can't stand Cal. (aside from his dumbass reason for joining Meteor in the first place)

 

More recently, the fact that he had the gall to catch a Medicham and raise it in an attempt to atone for his dick move really irks me.

It doesn't work like that Cal.

 

I'm glad Victoria still hates him.

 

1 hour ago, Animefan666 said:

As badly as the Pokemon are treated by humans, what about the reverse? The way Pokemon treat humans. As you well know, a Pokemon caught by a trainer doesn't just blindly obey there trainer as shown by much of what has already been referenced regarding Corey and Cal's Pokemon. They have a choice. They choose to obey their trainer. When Cal's Pokemon threw Medicham into the lava, it CHOSE to kill it. When Garchomp decapitated Kiki, it chose to do that as well. When Titania and her Aegislash killed all those Team Meteor grunts, it chose to do that too. The Pokemon can be just as cruel as the people.

 

Nah man. We've got these little pieces of metal that keep them enslaved.

Solaris had enough gym badges to use the Decapitate HM.

[Waynolt]

6 hours ago, ZEL said:

[...]

 

I wonder if there could be a way of rewarding players for sticking with their original team?

 

Mmm... maybe it could be combined with the unlimited IV that some hackmons are given...

What about rewarding IV points to all the pokemon in the party for every defeated non-rebattlable trainer, based on the difference between the trainer's team average level and your current badge's max level?

Limiting it to non-rebattables would make it impossible to use it to train mons - it'd be a too much limited resource, and only the earliest mons would get those extra points.
Binding it to the level difference would make it useless to purposely "save" trainers for later - that level 10 streetrat won't give IVs to your Goomy post-Adrienn.
We already know that IVs over 31 do not break the game engine nor forbid online play, so that's not a problem.

(Maybe a copy of the original IVs should be saved in a separate array, so that breeding can use those instead of the bonus ones).

[Egzample]

51 minutes ago, Waynolt said:

I wonder if there could be a way of rewarding players for sticking with their original team?

 

Mmm... maybe it could be combined with the unlimited IV that some hackmons are given...

What about rewarding IV points to all the pokemon in the party for every defeated non-rebattlable trainer, based on the difference between the trainer's team average level and your current badge's max level?

Limiting it to non-rebattables would make it impossible to use it to train mons - it'd be a too much limited resource, and only the earliest mons would get those extra points.
Binding it to the level difference would make it useless to purposely "save" trainers for later - that level 10 streetrat won't give IVs to your Goomy post-Adrienn.
We already know that IVs over 31 do not break the game engine nor forbid online play, so that's not a problem.

(Maybe a copy of the original IVs should be saved in a separate array, so that breeding can use those instead of the bonus ones).

 

 

Naaaaah, bad idea. First, define ''original team'', then, too many issues, accessibility (I wanna play 4-5 team until I get Fennekin/Goomy/whatever and consider it my main/original team, what now? Avoiding random fights? I dont have a chance to boost it), online playing (hell yea, just let me grind that Infernape even m0ar), and early mons are usually shitty (1000 atck IV bidoof for the win), plus it provides hackers with a gap. This is not needed, especially when it is possible to play with whatever you consider original team, that`s what I`m planning to do after last episode anyway, replaying the game without giving much of a damn about training, IVs, EVs, Natures, just sticking to my favourites.

 

1 hour ago, DerogatoryTrainer said:

Kiki's Medicham is the main reason I can't stand Cal. (aside from his dumbass reason for joining Meteor in the first place)

 

Oh yeah, I rly hope this hopeless betraying weak p**** dies anytime soon.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

(based on their personality and things they've said)

 

Characters who I think care about their Pokemon as friends/partners: Cain, Victoria, Julia, Corey before all the bad stuff happened to him, Shelly, Kiki, Radomus, Luna, Adrienn, Amaria, Hardy, Taka, Lumi, Anna, Laura, Bennett, Cal in the present, Arclight

 

Fern to an extent. Ame on tumblr replied to an ask about how Fern treats his Pokemon, and she said she imagines he would play favorites, as in ones that do well would be used more in battles, but that he wouldn't abuse them if they lost. 

 

Characters who I think use Pokemon as a means to achieve their goals: Corey after the bad stuff happened, Titania, Saphira, Lin, Solaris, Sirius, Eve, Zero, Sigmund, Cal when he was just trying to prove himself to his brother, Blake

 

P.S. I still think it's kind of jarring seeing Titania swing her Aegislash against a wall. 

 

Ones I'm not sure of:

-Florinia. I think before she tried to purge her emotions, she probably cared. Now it's kind of hard to say, but I imagine bonds became secondary to things like strategy. Also, the real person who was Florinia in the online league wasn't even interested in Pokemon and was only there because of her friends (Julia, Amaria, Titania), although I'm not sure if that's ever going to carry over into the game. 

-Shade. Anna says he's nice, so that's promising, but we don't really know much about him. 

-Aya. She uses Cain's Pokemon that he left behind, so it's unclear if she was a trainer before then, and we don't have any indication of how she treats them. Based on her personality I'd say neutral at best, and at worst has some hard feelings from being reminded of Cain from them. (although in Agate Cain and Aya did talk out their issues somewhat)

-Serra. She's a shell of her former self, so we haven't seen much of a personality from her. Considering she gave up her modeling career for Bennett and took in Luna, I'd like to think she does care for them. 

-Noel. He doesn't really express emotion so it's hard to tell, but I'd like to think he does since he has a Clefable, and Cleffa evolves into Clefairy through happiness. Although evolved forms of baby Pokemon like Pikachu and Clefairy can be found in the wild in Pokemon games, seeing as he has a Cleffa doll I think it's more likely he raised it from a Cleffa. 

-Samson. I think as of right now he's the least developed character in Reborn, and at least to me doesn't seem to have much of a defined personality. 

-Charlotte.

-Terra. She could probably create hacked Pokemon. 

-Ciel. Based on her personality I'd think she does, but like Samson she hasn't had much screen time. 

-El. While he did use Ditto as a means of achieving a goal (turning people against Radomus), I imagine he might consider Pokemon as Arceus's creations and thus consider it wrong to mistreat them. 

-Heather

[HUEnd]

That discussion made me remember the episode on Pokémon anime that James' Koffing and Jessie's Ekans tells Ash's pokémon that they are aware that their bosses are and do evil to others, but they do so because their masters tell them to do that.

 

The pokémons themselves are not evil, but they will act the way its master tells him to. And you should keep in mind that they may be evil to other pokémon and people, but they are not bad trainers, otherwise, Solaris' Garchomp wouldn't do what he says. The same applies to ALL situations mentioned above (Titania, Amaria, etc...).

[Egzample]

5 minutes ago, HUEnd said:

That discussion made me remember the episode on Pokémon anime that James' Koffing and Jessie's Ekans tells Ash's pokémon that they are aware that their bosses are and do evil to others, but they do so because their masters tell them to do that.

 

 

Wasnt it like Koffing and Ekans evolved basically because Jessie and James wanted them to evolve, to become stronger to stand against Ash, and they knew that and cos they loved them so much, they evolved?

[HUEnd]

Just now, example said:

Wasnt it like Koffing and Ekans evolved basically because Jessie and James wanted them to evolve, to become stronger to stand against Ash, and they knew that and cos they loved them so much, they evolved?

Exactly.

[seki108]

9 minutes ago, HUEnd said:

That discussion made me remember the episode on Pokémon anime that James' Koffing and Jessie's Ekans tells Ash's pokémon that they are aware that their bosses are and do evil to others, but they do so because their masters tell them to do that.

 

The pokémons themselves are not evil, but they will act the way its master tells him to. And you should keep in mind that they may be evil to other pokémon and people, but they are not bad trainers, otherwise, Solaris' Garchomp wouldn't do what he says. The same applies to ALL situations mentioned above (Titania, Amaria, etc...).

That might have been true early on in the anime, but the anime itself seems to shy away from that to varying degrees as it progresses.  I'm pretty sure that concept has never been in the games, though.  It further raises the question of how sapient Pokemon really are in canon.  Saying that everything is from the trainers seems like way too much of a cop out and a way to shift responsibility for a Pokemon's actions.  Have you read how the Pokedex describes certain Pokemon?

Edited March 3, 2017 by seki108

[HUEnd]

Just now, seki108 said:

That might have been true early on in the anime, but the anime itself seems to shy away from that to varying degrees as it progresses.  I'm pretty sure that concept has never been in the games, though.  It further raises the question of how sapient Pokemon really are in canon.  Saying that everything is from the trainers seems like way too much of a cop out and a way to shift responsibility.  Have you read how the Pokedex describes certain Pokemon?

Yes, I did. I am aware that some of those may enjoy what they do, but that is only a speculation. I mean, we can't imply for sure that Garchomp likes to "chomp" off some heads or that Titania's Aegislash likes to "Aegislash" people.

[seki108]

Just now, HUEnd said:

Yes, I did. I am aware that some of those may enjoy what they do, but that is only a speculation. I mean, we can't imply for sure that Garchomp likes to "chomp" off some heads or that Titania's Aegislash likes to "Aegislash" people.

True, but Pokemon would obviously have some personality differences and would enjoy/do things to different extents.  I was more referring to Pokemon like Garydos and Salamence, whose entries are more about uncontrolled rage and destruction.  Entries like this suggest that wild Pokemon are just as able to carry out 'evil' acts as under a trainer's control, just because of their nature.  Mostly, I just think it's BS to assume that humans are the sole or even the major cause of non-legendary Pokemon doing 'evil' acts.