The pokemon in Reborn

[Animefan666]

Exactly, each Pokemon, wild or not is capable of the same level of kindness/cruelty. Take a look at a Pokemon's characteristics. Some might say "Proud of its power" and there's the smoking gun, Pride. Pokemon have the same kinds of flaws as people.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Animefan666

[Egzample]

25 minutes ago, HUEnd said:

Titania's Aegislash likes to "Aegislash" people.

 

To aegislash people, I`ll add that to my dictionary, this is hilarious. Anyway, there`s always high possibility Aegislash matches Titania`s character. And it is high possibility, if she trained him from the young age.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

43 minutes ago, seki108 said:

That might have been true early on in the anime, but the anime itself seems to shy away from that to varying degrees as it progresses.  I'm pretty sure that concept has never been in the games, though.  It further raises the question of how sapient Pokemon really are in canon.  Saying that everything is from the trainers seems like way too much of a cop out and a way to shift responsibility for a Pokemon's actions.  Have you read how the Pokedex describes certain Pokemon?

There are a few NPCs throughout the games that have said there are no good or bad Pokemon, only good and bad trainers. 

 

I also personally don't consider the Pokedex a legitimate source of information. There are some entries that contradict each other. For example a lot of Slugma's entries mention that it never sleeps because if it stopped moving its body would cool and harden. While Emerald's entry mentions that it sleeps near magma. And Magcargo's entries say it's 10,000 times hotter than the sun. 

[seki108]

1 minute ago, Ice Cream Sand Witch said:

There are a few NPCs throughout the games that have said there are no good or bad Pokemon, only good and bad trainers. 

 

I also personally don't consider the Pokedex a legitimate source of information. There are some entries that contradict each other. For example a lot of Slugma's entries mention that it never sleeps because if it stopped moving its body would cool and harden. While Emerald's entry mentions that it sleeps near magma. And Magcargo's entries say it's 10,000 times hotter than the sun. 

It still seems more like old wives tales that don't take into account Pokemon as anything but servants, but that's just me.  Besides, part of my point was about wild Pokemon, who have shown to go either way.

 

While the Pokedex certainly makes stupid specific claims, there's nothing disproving general statements about the typical behavior of a Pokemon.

[ZEL]

55 minutes ago, Ice Cream Sand Witch said:

Characters who I think use Pokemon as a means to achieve their goals: Corey after the bad stuff happened, Titania, Saphira, Lin, Solaris, Sirius, Eve, Zero, Sigmund, Cal when he was just trying to prove himself to his brother, Blake

Not a canon thing due to the game being written by Ame, but I've got a tiny bit of "creator's headcanon" to supply because I remember talking with Ice about the personalities of ZEL's eeveelutions a while ago. (And Skype's search function is awful so of course I can't find it...)

He pretty much portrayed Umbreon as a bit of a sassmaster who likes to mess around with Zero, but ultimately the two of them are buddies and do like each other.

[23:14:49] Tapu Cocoa: seeing as for Eve and Zero they have friendship evolutions meaning they value their own pokemon

 

IIRC Eve explicitly wanted her Eevee to turn into Espeon, and in her typical manner made sure she did everything right, whereas Zero's Umbreon evolved on its own accord. There was the implication that Zero likes Umbreon much better than any person he met, though given that Zero generally doesn't warm up to people easily, that's also not an achievement :')

 

...But yeah I can't make claims for how Ame sees it, so if this applies to the game incarnations of the characters is unknown. I just know that Ice isn't gonna post even though he's lurking

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

Just now, ZEL said:

Not a canon thing due to the game being written by Ame, but I've got a tiny bit of "creator's headcanon" to supply because I remember talking with Ice about the personalities of ZEL's eeveelutions a while ago. (And Skype's search function is awful so of course I can't find it...)

He pretty much portrayed Umbreon as a bit of a sassmaster who likes to mess around with Zero, but ultimately the two of them are buddies and do like each other.

[23:14:49] Tapu Cocoa: seeing as for Eve and Zero they have friendship evolutions meaning they value their own pokemon

 

IIRC Eve explicitly wanted her Eevee to turn into Espeon, and in her typical manner made sure she did everything right, whereas Zero's Umbreon evolved on its own accord. There was the implication that Zero likes Umbreon much better than any person he met, though given that Zero generally doesn't warm up to people easily, that's also not an achievement :')

 

...But yeah I can't make claims for how Ame sees it, so if this applies to the game incarnations of the characters is unknown. I just know that Ice isn't gonna post even though he's lurking

That's a neat perspective. I actually forgot to take into account Eve and Zero having friendship evolutions even though I did so for Noel :x There are people who prefer non-human animals to other people, so Zero could be like that. Maybe he has not a good history with people, while Umbreon was his first friend. Whereas Eve's biggest priority is her sister, so while she treats her Pokemon well, everything she does is ultimately for Lumi. 

[ZEL]

50 minutes ago, Ice Cream Sand Witch said:

That's a neat perspective. I actually forgot to take into account Eve and Zero having friendship evolutions even though I did so for Noel :x There are people who prefer non-human animals to other people, so Zero could be like that. Maybe he has not a good history with people, while Umbreon was his first friend. Whereas Eve's biggest priority is her sister, so while she treats her Pokemon well, everything she does is ultimately for Lumi. 

Funny thing is, Ice did say that had he created the characters in Gen VI, he might have given Lumi a Sylveon, ultimately giving all three of them friendship/affection-based evolutions.

 

I cannot speak for Ame's interpretations of things because I know that she was given a lot of room to alter things about the characters to suit the narrative she wanted to create, but going with Ice's portrayal, you'd be spot-on with Zero. A big reason he's so antisocial is because in his past experiences, no person but himself would give a damn about him. He's had Eevee/Umbreon from a young age on, and the 'mon was kind of the only company he kept.

 

Pardon me, I have a huge soft spot for him based on out-of-game knowledge.

Edited March 3, 2017 by ZEL

[Egzample]

1 hour ago, seki108 said:

While the Pokedex certainly makes stupid specific claims, there's nothing disproving general statements about the typical behavior of a Pokemon.

 

Dex entries are... well, 10.000 times hotter than the sun? I`d like to see this thing eradicating life in 500 km radius. At best. Or Wailord being less dense than the air. It reminds me Marvel heroes - overpowered so much, that they are in fact ridicolous, it has nothing to do not only with basic physics, but also with common sense, it is just too much. On the other hand, we got entries like burning away the soul of a victim, preying on smaller mons, etc. It is interesting, but to what extent we can be picky about what makes sense and consider it canon, and what is ridicolous? It is the same source.

 

 

 

 

[Sirrobert]

10 hours ago, seki108 said:

That might have been true early on in the anime, but the anime itself seems to shy away from that to varying degrees as it progresses.  I'm pretty sure that concept has never been in the games, though.  It further raises the question of how sapient Pokemon really are in canon.  Saying that everything is from the trainers seems like way too much of a cop out and a way to shift responsibility for a Pokemon's actions.  Have you read how the Pokedex describes certain Pokemon?

It's probably similar to dogs.

Dogs are naturally super sweet, but with the "right" training, you an get them to do anything.

[Guest]

On 03/03/2017 at 6:58 PM, GGLL said:

Good morning everyone . Today , I've decided to start a topic about a certain that has been kind of bothering me in pokemon reborn and that is the treatment of the pokemon themselves.

      Everyone who has played a mainseries pokemon game would know that alot of emphasis is placed on the pokemon themselves.They are your partners , your friends,a family that will stick with you to the bitter end ,even if you have not been treating them especially well (but you have been nice to them in your own way of course ).The games go out of their way (well , not really ) to remind you that pokemon are sentient beings ,like you, and as such you should  respect them  , else you would be  no better than the various evil organizations that you face in each game .Yet, ever since the beginning of pokemon reborn , pokemon have seemingly been pushed to the sidelines , with characters only barely acknowledging that some pokemon have been hurt or even killed , along with the fact that major trainers (and even pokemon themselves)  seem to have completely forgotten about the bonds they've created with them or , sometimes , even their existence [ Amaria jumps off the waterfall while still having her own pokemon friends on her , putting their lives in needless danger which would seem out of character for her .Later,  her pokemon don't even seem to react to that same event and her amnesia ,despite the fact that her pokemon should be perfectly capable of telling her  about  what happened .Yet the game doesn't even call this actions (or inactions )out .].What's perhaps the common occurence of this is the part where you are ''allowed'' to take a dead trainer's pokemon (Corey's , some other unfortunate victim of Pulse Tangrowth), without really any permission or anyone calling you out (though ,to be fair ,most pokemon would have been left alone with no one to turn to if you don't interfere ), making seem like the pokemon themselves were just added in the game just so you would be able to do something between all the important plot points .

        Admittedly , pokemon reborn is not the only fan game that does this and it's treatment of pokemon is not as bad as it was in earlier episodes ( where Cal threw Kiki's Medicham in the lava without any hesitation and the early game sidequests where fewer )or  other fan games, but it was still something that personally bugged me . 

         Excuse me for that wall of text , everyone . Though, I wonder  what are your thoughts on this matter ?

 

I'm just going to reply to what OP said in little breakdowns.

 

"Everyone who has played a mainseries pokemon game would know that alot of emphasis is placed on the pokemon themselves.They are your partners , your friends,a family that will stick with you to the bitter end ,even if you have not been treating them especially well (but you have been nice to them in your own way of course ).The games go out of their way (well , not really ) to remind you that pokemon are sentient beings ,like you, and as such you should  respect them  , else you would be  no better than the various evil organizations that you face in each game ."

 

Reborn is a different game entirely, not focused towards children but is targeted at a larger, more mature demographic. When I was a kid I played all of the Pokemon games, even the ones that were out before I was born or before I could read or whatever the case may be. The mainstream Pokemon games are based in a world where all is good, most of the time, barring the team(s) of evil that you face. The mainstream Pokemon games put emphasis on care, love, friendship and so on, because it helps teach children that these things are essential, and that these things can conquer the evil stuff. Of course, this is all in an ideal world where good always prevails over evil, the evil guy caves in and vanishes somewhere and so on. The games don't necessarily need to remind you as the story progresses because you learn through subtle hints what will happen if you are not nice. For the most part it's true, you know. If you're not nice, things will turn on you and things can go south and all that. The games teach you to be better than your enemy, because if you're better than your enemy and you show it, eventually they will be frustrated, make several missteps, become irrational and in a way, beat themselves. I like to look at the mainstream Pokemon games as a lesson (a very repetitive lesson) of respect, kindness and so on. Basically everything a person with a good nature and a good mindset should have, and if you possess these qualities, you should be able to befriend animals (Pokemon), other people, gain respect and conquer obstacles that are in your way, or other people that are trying to do harm or whatever the case may be. 

 

"Yet, ever since the beginning of pokemon reborn , pokemon have seemingly been pushed to the sidelines , with characters only barely acknowledging that some pokemon have been hurt or even killed , along with the fact that major trainers (and even pokemon themselves)  seem to have completely forgotten about the bonds they've created with them or , sometimes , even their existence [ Amaria jumps off the waterfall while still having her own pokemon friends on her , putting their lives in needless danger which would seem out of character for her ."

 

Pokemon Reborn is an interesting game, based off of the league that was run here a long time ago and now obviously made into a storytelling masterpiece in a wonderfully crafted video game. Based in a dystopian society, Reborn offers a closer look at things, and sometimes makes you question whether or not you're doing the morally correct thing, or the correct thing at the time, or doing a totally bad thing, or whatever. The game is very good at, if you really put your mind to it, making you think about your stance on things (when presented the opportunity to choose), your surroundings, who you're dealing with, what you're up against and what you must do to essentially survive in this crack ridden city that has more problems than the guy who has 99 problems. What is interesting, is that the other characters in the game tend to notice occurrences with other characters, whether good or bad, as opposed to acknowledging their partners. It's almost the complete opposite of the mainstream games, where everything is about the Pokemon and you, or so it feels like. You are correct, OP. You must remember that people are naturally selfish. People tend to care about themselves, then others if they are close to them. A rush of emotion, or someone being forced to do something will force them to forget about the bonds they've forged and so on and so forth. People also do what they have to do, you know - especially in a society like Reborn. 

 

In a way, I feel like Reborn does actually reinforce the fact that Pokemon are your partners, and friends (in a gaming context), just in a more subtle manner. For example, that ZEL character is always saying on the side something about the Pokemon, and them hanging in there and being strong and wanting to release it (think Taka said that too iirc). The event with Corey and his plunge to death served as a reminder that even through human selfishness, Pokemon attempt to remain loyal through and through, especially if they feel they've forged a bond with you. It is subtly displayed, I feel like, when Medicham was thrown into the lava. People were probably shocked - pretty sure Kiki would've been were she not dying. There're several other times, one which was particularly striking was the whole Radomus thing in the Ruby Tower with the El and fake Gardevoir encounter. According to the dialogue down there, Gardevoir sticks to pure hearted or good people or whatever, and it is so. 

 

Despite it not being evident on the outside, characters do care in the game - they just give very subtle hints, I feel like. 

 

dont talk smack about amy 

 

I feel like Reborn puts a slight emphasis on the fact that humans are humans, and we will naturally do selfish things or look out for those close to us as opposed to the Pokemon. It's not displayed outwardly because of the plot and stuff but I'm sure a lot of the characters there do care, it's just not outwardly shown, and given to us in a more subtle manner. 

 

 

"Later,  her pokemon don't even seem to react to that same event and her amnesia ,despite the fact that her pokemon should be perfectly capable of telling her  about  what happened .Yet the game doesn't even call this actions (or inactions )out .]."

 

Funny isn't it? With all that Amnesia going on +2 Sp. Def maybe the Pokemon caught some of it.... Definitely an interesting point. Can't say much about that! 

 

 

 

"What's perhaps the common occurence of this is the part where you are ''allowed'' to take a dead trainer's pokemon (Corey's , some other unfortunate victim of Pulse Tangrowth), without really any permission or anyone calling you out (though ,to be fair ,most pokemon would have been left alone with no one to turn to if you don't interfere ), making seem like the pokemon themselves were just added in the game just so you would be able to do something between all the important plot points ."

 

Hmm..  Is it taking? More like adopting I'd say. Corey's Croagunk is found in a cave, lost and confused, having just been released by their owner to later hear a "splat" on the ground. Assuming the worst, Croagunk goes into a random cave and hides, traumatized and terrified about the events, wondering where it'll go next - how will it re-assimilate? There are no other Poison types near by. The gates to the wasteland are locked. Where does it go? A trainer stumbled upon them. The Croagunk's eyes light up, eager to go with the trainer, to push themselves to the limit for the trainer, to test the trainer and be tested. It's not taking - mere adoption, if you will. Once again, Pokemon added in to add emphasis on the importance of bonds. For Corey died, we were the witness, in a way, we're bonded to the Pokemon. It would be a shame if we didn't try to seek out the Pokemons released and try to help them past their grief, thus forging a new bond. 

 

 

        "Admittedly , pokemon reborn is not the only fan game that does this and it's treatment of pokemon is not as bad as it was in earlier episodes ( where Cal threw Kiki's Medicham in the lava without any hesitation and the early game sidequests where fewer )or  other fan games, but it was still something that personally bugged me . "

 

Certainly puts a dark twist on things to swerve away from the mainstream tradition huh?

 

Maybe I've read too much into things, maybe not. Regardless....

 

Glad you brought this up. 

      

 

 

 

 

[Daniel Blackworth]

I've got a question. Why do Corey's pokemon even separate from each other? Aren't they supposed to be partners?

[Sirrobert]

48 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

When I was a kid I played all of the Pokemon games, even the ones that were out before I was born or before I could read

Way to make me feel old. I was 8 or 9 when pokemon came to Europe.

[Daniel Blackworth]

I started playing pokemon when I was around 11 or 12. The first game I played was actually a fangame. It was called Pokemon Revolution something and I was shocked to find out that it wasn't a main game after all. My first main game was FireRed and I enjoyed it even if I solo'd it with Blastoise.

[GGLL]

      I have to admit , I forgot of a few of this instances that were mentioned (   about Taka , ZEL and a few others ) where characters reacted to the suffering of the pokemon  or showed affection . And I guess the argument about reborn's terrible state does explain why there is a certain lack of care from some NPCs that you wouldn't see in the mainseries games , so .... I guess I concede  and I should start beating me over my head for forgetting some of these instances  .Thank you everyone for your contribution to the topic I still stand by my opinion on Amaria's move , though . That being said , their are a few things I would like to address before I leave .

     In regards to the pokeballs , your pokemon do canonically sake with anger inside their pokeballs when Ghestis' Kyurem absorbs Reshiram/Zekrom , so I  think that pokemon are aware of what is happening outside of their pokeballs.Aside from that , I  understand why Corey's pokemon would want to go with a trainer after they were released , but not why they would join with the person who is partially responsible for said release and their trainer's death. That , I find kind of odd . 

      That all being said , I do agree with the rest of the arguments .

[Daniel Blackworth]

5 minutes ago, GGLL said:

      I have to admit , I forgot of a few of this instances that were mentioned (   about Taka , ZEL and a few others ) where characters reacted to the suffering of the pokemon  or showed affection . And I guess the argument about reborn's terrible state does explain why there is a certain lack of care from some NPCs that you wouldn't see in the mainseries games , so .... I guess I concede  and I should start beating me over my head for forgetting some of these instances  .Thank you everyone for your contribution to the topic I still stand by my opinion on Amaria's move , though . That being said , their are a few things I would like to address before I leave .

     In regards to the pokeballs , your pokemon do canonically sake with anger inside their pokeballs when Ghestis' Kyurem absorbs Reshiram/Zekrom , so I  think that pokemon are aware of what is happening outside of their pokeballs.Aside from that , I  understand why Corey's pokemon would want to go with a trainer after they were released , but not why they would join with the person who is partially responsible for said release and their trainer's death. That , I find kind of odd . 

      That all being said , I do agree with the rest of the arguments .

Maybe they don't really blame the protagonist for his death and maybe they have seen that he is a suitable person to be their next trainer.