ITT: Pokemon Reborn Game Balancing

[Norm]

Hello!

Like many of you, I've played Pokemon Reborn many times. For the most part, I enjoy the limited resources aspect of the game, but sometimes the balance of available Pokemon seems arbitrary or skewed. 

 

For example, Talonflame remains unavailable despite the fact that it isn't broken in the slightest ingame, in fact, it leans on the opposite side. Talonflame is actually quite mediocre in-game due. It has poor level-up movepool (The dude doesn't even get a good STAB until level 44), It can't sweep because its offensive stats are pretty average and it can't learn Swords Dance ATM, Gale Wings in-game is essentially useless given Talonflame's 126 base Spd stat. And has a rather redundant STAB combination. On top of that, there already exist superior Fire mons in the game already! Growlithe comes quite early and has a stellar movepool from level-up alone, Darmanitan hits like a truck with Sheer Force/Flare Blitz combo, and Blaziken is well... Blaziken. Talonflame could easily be available after Jasper Ward and not break the game. Its only good boss match-up would be Kiki, who's already on the easy side (unless you think that STAB peck would do anything to Shelly). I feel like things like that should be considered when placing certain Pokemon in places

 

Also, some pokemon like Reuniclus seem to be available too late given the competition they're up against. Reuniclus is outclassed by Alakazam as a special sweeper, and by Metagross as a tank/powerhouse, and they are all available around the same span of time. Pokemon like that should be given an earlier acquisition time to give them more reason to use other than personal preference

 

 

Feel free to use this as a general discussion thread for game-balance and post your thoughts on my proposals here!

[iTunes]

I see what you are saying but you have to take into account that every Pokemon has their own uses. Giving someone a Talonflame early on would be game breaking because if they use an Ability Capsual they can get Gale Wings making it have priority over many Pokemon. Like when facing bosses who use Choice Item's you can get a Brave Bird off an KO with a high Attack Stat and a 99% of out speeding (Faster Pokemon using Priority). Although I think it should be available during the Agate Circus segment of the game. Reuniclus is mainly used as a tank. Although I agree that Growlith should be placed slightly further onwards as it sweeps most of the game. 

[enu]

1 hour ago, Norm said:

Also, some pokemon like Reuniclus seem to be available too late given the competition they're up against. Reuniclus is outclassed by Alakazam as a special sweeper, and by Metagross as a tank/powerhouse, and they are all available around the same span of time. Pokemon like that should be given an earlier acquisition time to give them more reason to use other than personal preference

 

You're wrong here. Reuniclus and Solosis are both available after Radomus. Beldum is only available after Ciel which is a huge difference. But yeah, you're right that either Reuniclus should be sooner or Alakazam later.

 

And I agree with you about Arcanine, the problem is that moving it would also move the Mystery Egg thing.

 

Talonflame could be earlier too especially since Gen 7 crushed Gale Wings. Jasper is way too early though.

 

There is also Gardevoir/Gallade who are available way too early (far before Alakazam and Solosis). Ame said whe might move Ralts to Neo Reborn (after Ciel) so let's se if she actually will.

 

However all in all it is impossible to really balance the availability of all mons. And Ame is doing a really good job already, the availability is far better balanced than any other pokemon game. There is also the fact that it makes even less sense to rebalance these with the online trading thing already out - if you wish a good mon early, there will always be someone to give it to you.

[Cyrikyty]

3 hours ago, baldr said:

 

You're wrong here. Reuniclus and Solosis are both available after Radomus. Beldum is only available after Ciel which is a huge difference. But yeah, you're right that either Reuniclus should be sooner or Alakazam later.

 

And I agree with you about Arcanine, the problem is that moving it would also move the Mystery Egg thing.

 

Talonflame could be earlier too especially since Gen 7 crushed Gale Wings. Jasper is way too early though.

 

There is also Gardevoir/Gallade who are available way too early (far before Alakazam and Solosis). Ame said whe might move Ralts to Neo Reborn (after Ciel) so let's se if she actually will.

 

However all in all it is impossible to really balance the availability of all mons. And Ame is doing a really good job already, the availability is far better balanced than any other pokemon game. There is also the fact that it makes even less sense to rebalance these with the online trading thing already out - if you wish a good mon early, there will always be someone to give it to you.

Beldum is avaiable after Luna. At least in E16, I did the event right before I went to Agate Circus.

[enu]

6 hours ago, GS BALL said:

I confirm that Beldum event is before Agate.

 

Hmm... well some guides like this one list Beldum as post-Ciel mon and I think I read somewhere else that the evnt is supposed to work only after Agate. Maybe it was just not implemented in the end or it's a planned change for E17? Sorry for the confusion.

[Animefan666]

On the matter of balancing, am I the only one that thinks Taka's Chatot is TOO powerful? When I battled him Chatter swept through my whole team like a plasma sword through butter. It even two-shotted my Magneton with Chatter.

[Norm]

13 hours ago, iTunes said:

 I see what you are saying but you have to take into account that every Pokemon has their own uses. Giving someone a Talonflame early on would be game breaking because if they use an Ability Capsual they can get Gale Wings making it have priority over many Pokemon. Like when facing bosses who use Choice Item's you can get a Brave Bird off an KO with a high Attack Stat and a 99% of out speeding (Faster Pokemon using Priority). Although I think it should be available during the Agate Circus segment of the game. Reuniclus is mainly used as a tank. Although I agree that Growlith should be placed slightly further onwards as it sweeps most of the game. 

Gale Wings isn't broken in-game at all. Hell, Flame Body probably is better in the long run! First thing first, for the AI, Choice Items are TERRIBLE because of how exploitative they are. All you have to do is predict the move, and the opposing mon is chump-change. Gale wings is good in PVP because people actually utilize Choice Scarf with the switch command. In-game, Gale Wings unneeded because Talonflame is already faster than any Unchoiced threats. There are only 8 non-legend, non-mega pokemon that even outspeed Talonflame. Those being: Jolteon, Aerodactyl, Ninjask, Crobat, Acelgor, and Electrode. Talonflame already has a bad matchup against half of them and is killing the two bugs with ease with or without Gale Wings. Talonflame's attack is only 81, not considered high or even above-average. Talonflame's moveset is also atrocious early on, only really getting powerful at level 44, so he will really be held back during early boss fights (I know from experience, his first breakout battle was Kiki, and she's already pretty weak).

My point about Reuniclus was that it is severely outclassed for its acquisition since Metagross does its tank job better(Recovery moves are useless in-game) It should be obtainable earlier because it doesn't need to be a late-game mon.

 

Don't get me wrong, Talonflame isn't the main focus of the topic, there are plenty of other Pokemon that aren't as good upon further scrutiny (Gligar, Skarmory, and Rotom come to mind). He was just the one in the center of my mind

2 hours ago, Animefan666 said:

On the matter of balancing, am I the only one that thinks Taka's Chatot is TOO powerful? When I battled him Chatter swept through my whole team like a plasma sword through butter. It even two-shotted my Magneton with Chatter.

 

Chatot is probably the only questionable earlygame boss for me mostly because of nasty plot. it can destroy so many things with Chatter thanks to its 100% confuse rate. I feel it would be more manageable without nasty plot.

 

[Farnsworth]

3 hours ago, Norm said:

Gale Wings isn't broken in-game at all. Hell, Flame Body probably is better in the long run! First thing first, for the AI, Choice Items are TERRIBLE because of how exploitative they are. All you have to do is predict the move, and the opposing mon is chump-change. Gale wings is good in PVP because people actually utilize Choice Scarf with the switch command. In-game, Gale Wings unneeded because Talonflame is already faster than any Unchoiced threats. There are only 8 non-legend, non-mega pokemon that even outspeed Talonflame. Those being: Jolteon, Aerodactyl, Ninjask, Crobat, Acelgor, and Electrode. Talonflame already has a bad matchup against half of them and is killing the two bugs with ease with or without Gale Wings. Talonflame's attack is only 81, not considered high or even above-average. Talonflame's moveset is also atrocious early on, only really getting powerful at level 44, so he will really be held back during early boss fights (I know from experience, his first breakout battle was Kiki, and she's already pretty weak).

My point about Reuniclus was that it is severely outclassed for its acquisition since Metagross does its tank job better(Recovery moves are useless in-game) It should be obtainable earlier because it doesn't need to be a late-game mon.

 

Don't get me wrong, Talonflame isn't the main focus of the topic, there are plenty of other Pokemon that aren't as good upon further scrutiny (Gligar, Skarmory, and Rotom come to mind). He was just the one in the center of my mind

Chatot is probably the only questionable earlygame boss for me mostly because of nasty plot. it can destroy so many things with Chatter thanks to its 100% confuse rate. I feel it would be more manageable without nasty plot.

 

 

The thing is, many of the gym leaders rely on some of these choice items. Also, leaders tend to use pokemon that are higher level than our own mons (especially the aces), which a lot of the times outspeed our entire team. You are underestimating the utility of Gale Wings, Talonflame learns Roost as a level up move, and a priority healing move is very useful. Not only that but priority Brave Bird hits very hard, harder than you think it does.

 

Also being bad in the early to mid game shouldn't be a factor, since late game Talonflame is borderline broken. A situation very similar to Greninja, who is only available because it is a starter. I don't think Talonflame should even be discussed, with the inclusion of Gen 7 it will most certainly be available earlier in the game due to Gale Wings nerf.

 

EDIT:

Another important factor is that sometimes pokemon only become available when it makes sense. An example is Skarmory, it will most likely be found in the Scarpyard within the desert, because it makes sense for it to be there. Some pokemon suffer from this and become available much later than they should be (not Skarm though, that thing is broken).

Edited April 13, 2017 by Farnsworth

[Norm]

18 minutes ago, Farnsworth said:

 

The thing is, many of the gym leaders rely on some of these choice items. Also, leaders tend to use pokemon that are higher level than our own mons (especially the aces), which a lot of the times outspeed our entire team. You are underestimating the utility of Gale Wings, Talonflame learns Roost as a level up move, and a priority healing move is very useful. Not only that but priority Brave Bird hits very hard, harder than you think it does.

 

Also being bad in the early to mid game shouldn't be a factor, since late game Talonflame is borderline broken. A situation very similar to Greninja, who is only available because it is a starter. I don't think Talonflame should even be discussed, with the inclusion of Gen 7 it will most certainly be available earlier in the game due to Gale Wings nerf.

 

EDIT:

Another important factor is that sometimes pokemon only become available when it makes sense. An example is Skarmory, it will most likely be found in the Scarpyard within the desert, because it makes sense for it to be there. Some pokemon suffer from this and become available much later than they should be (not Skarm though, that thing is broken).

What gym leaders rely on choice scarf (the only one hampered by Gale Wings)? I checked, and there are zero gym leaders that use choice items, let alone choice Scarf. Talonflame already outspeeds the team with or without galeforce unless they're packing one of the few pokemon faster than it. Priority healing already exists, they're called Items. There is no need at all for ingame teams to be using any self healing moves. I also know from experience taht Talonflame can't sweep teams compared to the likes of Arcanine, Darmanitan, and Magmortar. Base 81 Atk is not a whole lot without Swords Dance. Talonflame was insane in Competitive play, I know from experience, but almost none of the reasons for its dominance are present in the current game. There are very few if any Scarfers, There's no Swords Dance for Sweeping, and no niche in self-healing. Talonflame doesn't even touch the borderline. I've had far more success with other fire-types such as Ninetales, Darm, Houndoom and Arcanine than I have with Talonflame. If something like SD was in the game, I wouldn't argue for Talonflame, but it doesn't actually make that big of an impact. You're not going to 6-0 teams in Reborn with a Talonflame. He's a solid team member, and I concede that I was just throwing Jasper as it was the first name that came to mind (After Kiki would be where I would put it), but he can't hold a torch (get it? torch? fire type?... I'll leave) to what Greninja, Blaziken, and other sweepers can accomplish

 

I said Skarmory because his claim to fame is as a hazard setter, something which is near useless for the player because the AI doesn't consistently switch. As you can see here, Skarmory's ingame movepool is pretty terrible. It's incredibly passive, which limits its viability without breeding. I certainly don't think he should be readily available, just throwing an example out. Something like Ferrothorn is broken as an in-game wall because of its dual bulk and ability to rack up damage. But Skarmory is way too passive for an- in-game wall.

[FairFamily]

Doesn't ciel use a choice item on its archeops?

 

Also I once got the honor of using talonflame of a monobird run against Sampson. It doesn't sweep but it does decently. It should be in the game right now. 

 

About hazards, hazards are still usefull no matter whether the ai switches a lot or not. Setting up hazards is easier because the AI switches less. After that skarmory whirwinds for easy damage. It breaks things like sturdy and sashes and the monotyping makes it give some specifi options.  I use toxic spikes on my defensive run and that is incredibly usefull.

[iTunes]

Doesn't Charlotte also use Choice-Scarfed Eruption on her Typhlosion? That thing swept through my team and took two Flare Blitz from an on-par Arcanine to take out. Without the Scarf it would be easy.

 

[Sirrobert]

On 13-4-2017 at 6:52 PM, Animefan666 said:

On the matter of balancing, am I the only one that thinks Taka's Chatot is TOO powerful? When I battled him Chatter swept through my whole team like a plasma sword through butter. It even two-shotted my Magneton with Chatter.

Meh.

Chatot is powerful, but utterly neutered by a Soundproof pokemon. And you get a strong one very early (Whismur)

Edited April 14, 2017 by Sirrobert

[Norm]

I just Checked, and Typhlosion has a Sitrus Berry (Darmanitan was scarfed in past releases) and Archeops has a Choice Band (Which isn't affected by Gale Wings priority)

1 hour ago, Sirrobert said:

Meh.

Chatot is powerful, but utterly neutered by a Soundproof pokemon. And you get a strong one very early (Whismur)

I'm aware of Soundproof Loudred being a good matchup to Chatot, but you shouldn't have to have a certain Pokemon (Whismur is the only Soundproof mon available by that time) with a certain ability to comfortably beat a Pokemon. Chatot can sweep a team without Loudred easy after Nasty Plot. Chatot can still be a threat without nasty plot, (give it a good coverage move or something) but it shouldn't be able to single-handedly wipe teams. Nasty plot can show up later in the game (around the 3rd Taka fight is fine) because you thhan have many guys who can deal with it, but Chatot at Malchous is simply too powerful for our shitmons

 

Also, I'm about to start a new Reborn file, does anybody have any ideas for guys I should try to test their strength?

 

[FairFamily]

what way test. Mons that aren't available yet but you will hack in to test or mons we think are broken/strong?

[Norm]

46 minutes ago, FairFamily said:

what way test. Mons that aren't available yet but you will hack in to test or mons we think are broken/strong?

That's about right. I just wanna try new guys. Acquire some already existing/realisable pokemon earlier. Looking at the list, there don't seem to be too many mons whose placement I disagree with. Put more typing variety at different points in the game and such.

[Sirrobert]

12 hours ago, Norm said:

I just Checked, and Typhlosion has a Sitrus Berry (Darmanitan was scarfed in past releases) and Archeops has a Choice Band (Which isn't affected by Gale Wings priority)

I'm aware of Soundproof Loudred being a good matchup to Chatot, but you shouldn't have to have a certain Pokemon (Whismur is the only Soundproof mon available by that time) with a certain ability to comfortably beat a Pokemon. Chatot can sweep a team without Loudred easy after Nasty Plot. Chatot can still be a threat without nasty plot, (give it a good coverage move or something) but it shouldn't be able to single-handedly wipe teams. Nasty plot can show up later in the game (around the 3rd Taka fight is fine) because you thhan have many guys who can deal with it, but Chatot at Malchous is simply too powerful for our shitmons

 

Also, I'm about to start a new Reborn file, does anybody have any ideas for guys I should try to test their strength?

 

I agree that it might be a bit much to only have a single pokemon that can reliably check a boss, but it's hardly uncommon to face pokemon that need very specific counters to beat, or sweep your entire team.

Also Loudred isn't a good matchup. Early Chatot simply only has sound based attacks, so there's no matchup at all. It's a slaughter