"Liberté, Equalité, Fraternité"

[Chase]

Alright, so, in lieu of the UK snap vote that was mentioned in a recent thread by another poster, I'll call attention to ANOTHER European election because HEY! OTHER PEOPLE BE TALKIN 'BOUT POLITICS WOOOOO-

 

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In a stunning Round 1 finish, France is going to go places it hasn't been - either in some time, or never before. In this particular election - Francois Holland (I believe) will be replaced by either the center-left populist Emmanuel Macron, or "far-right" Marine Le Pen - neither candidate of which coming from the traditional Republican or Socialist parties that have been the most instrumental in modern French politics.

 

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Macron is not a party elite, and that makes his platform an interesting one, particularly because he needs to build a majority of seats in the French Parliament of traditional Socialist and Republicain members in order to effectively overcome what appears to be a divided France - WHILE not being officially the winner of the election. The French polling currently has the centrist polling better than Le Pen, but only because the traditional right-leaning party representative (the Republicain) immediately called for members of his party to support Macron, despite his slight leaning the other direction, for fear of a regressive France under far-right influence.

 

While it's true polling was not as ironclad in the United States, or with the Brexit vote, French polling is notoriously accurate. For now, Macron gets the edge. It's also worth knowing that because this election knocked both traditional parties away from power, that sour grapes could make the run-off with Le Pen interesting as traditional party leaders opt not to endorse and back Macron.

 

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Le Pen is the daughter of another influential French politician, and the younger is essentially a female, not orange, French version of "candidate" Donald Trump or UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party) leader Nigel Farage. Her platform seems to be centered on stronger borders and nationalism. She has claimed that the run-off vote with Macron will be "for the soul of France." - and like Farage, has ventured into steering France away from the eurozone.

 

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I'd like to formally give my endorsement, as an American neither candidate nor most of you here at Reborn care about, to Macron. While I have my doubts that the best bet for the European Union is to hold significant control over the governments it associates with, I don't think the world needs to be repeatedly subjected to having their own personal Donald Trump win every election.

 

As a conservative, I believe that the far-right influence some of these candidates across the world have is alarming and not one that is good for the common person.

 

[Zarc]

don't worry about it , Le Pen will never pass , people often vote for her just to punish to actual government , same as others elections.

 

But once again , french people has to vote for the " less worse " candidate just like Hollande in 2012. Of course Macron is far away better than Le Pen to keep good internationales relations , but he actually has 0 international experience ( and Le Pen is worst ) 

 

I personnaly don't know if i'm going to vote on the second turn because i really don't like both candidates , Le Pen well.... it's Le Pen , and Macron is obviously an Hollande bis.

 

 

And finally , for " Liberté , Egalité , Fraternité " , you can remove " Egalité " , egality doesn't exist in France anymore.

 

 

*fern mod* Peace

Edited April 25, 2017 by Zarc

[mde2001]

I was rooting for Macron from the start so I'm really glad that he made it through to the second round. Le Pen is the worst. 

 

I really don't feel like Le Pen has any hope in winning round 2, given that every other relevant candidate has endorsed Macron, and he already had more of a primary vote than Le Pen. Of course based on some of the results on 2016 nothing is ever certain, but I feel pretty confident France isn't getting dumped into the alt right pile thank god. 

 

I may absolutely detest Le Pen, but I'll admit she is an excellent campaigner and it is almost impressive (albeit kind of terrifying) how far she's gotten. I don't like her message at all but it is clearly working on a much larger percentage of the population than I would have expected.

[Zarc]

yeah , i have to admit that from the begining Le Pen is alone against the world and she's still gaining support. Because people see on Le Pen a lot of changes ( not in the good way ,  but changes :/ ) , it mean french people get tired of the past 30 years government methods. If we take a look to the score of Le Pen and Melenchon ( other extreme ) it's just huge. 

 

 

But the truth is : medias and Hollande influence are what give Macron the victory.

 

 

( and sorry for my english again )

 

frenchs are not bad guys , but they are that : 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Zarc

[Wolfox]

2 hours ago, Zarc said:

don't worry about it , Le Pen will never pass , people often vote for her just to punish to actual government , same as others elections.

3

You realize Trump became the US president right? anything can happen in politics

[Zarc]

again , on every single election ( regional/departemental ) people always voted Le Pen to punish actual government , not the case for Trump otherwise he couldn't had + 50%. And Trump had won because of american system , Clinton had 2 millions votes more than Trump and yet it's Trump president , which is not the case in France ^^

 

I'm totally agree with you that everything can happen in politics but believe me Le Pen has no chance to win , other politicals parti ( exept Melenchon ) , even Fillon said that he will side with Macron 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Zarc

[Abyssreaper99]

I wish the French the very best within their elections. From what little I've heard, I believe that Macron is the best choice. In my opinion, Le pen is not the best choice as far-right decisions not only deal with what they say but it could spur on a spike of hate crime. As sad as I am to admit this, this happened in Britain after Brexit was announced and perhaps even before then.

 

Good luck to the French and may the best candidate win...

[Eviora]

9 hours ago, Chase said:

I'd like to formally give my endorsement, as an American neither candidate nor most of you here at Reborn care about, to Macron. While I have my doubts that the best bet for the European Union is to hold significant control over the governments it associates with, I don't think the world needs to be repeatedly subjected to having their own personal Donald Trump win every election.

 

 

Oh, look. We (mostly) agree on something. This is awkward.

[Chase]

I dunno, I think it's kinda nice, actually. dissenting all the time makes me less mysterious....or at least that's what that teen magazine said. I dunno.

 

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Somewhat news:

 

Macron is officially endorsed by Hollande, adding to his pile of politicians giving him the nod.

 

Le Pen, on the other hand, has decided to step down as leader of the French National Front in an attempt to re-shape her image ahead of the run-off.

 

This sets up the now-unaffiliated patriotic far-righty vs. the socially acceptable and establishment-backed centrist. Le Pen, like Trump and Farage, has the same openings the two men had when it comes to inspiring turnout, but she has to overcome her family name being the butt-end of a political joke in France and she'll need to really make former Fillon voters spurn his endorsement of her opponent. She's still got a mountain to climb.

 

I get the feeling this one is going to get ugly.

[Eviora]

Oh, great. Now you're using Teen Magazine to figure out how to deal with me.

 

Anyway, it would be nice to dismiss Le Pen as less than viable, but if there's one thing I learned from last year's travesties, it's that no matter how poor your outlook on humankind is, people will still disappoint you. I'm not going to risk my dwindling dregs of sanity trying to predict this one. Que sera, sera.

[Chase]

Hahahaha. I'm usually contrarian with most everyone on this board. And many elsewhere. Don't personalize that. If anyone's the oddballl, it's probably me.

 

I wouldn't have made the thread if Le Pen was dead in the water - but the point is that BOTH candidates are political unknowns in France to an extent.

[Zarc]

Le Pen was interwiewed yersterday and believe me , frenchs medias did theirs jobs... 

[HughJ]

No good option

 

Le Pen advocates the regulation of what people can wear in public (no head scarves) which is not cool and belies the fact that she believes Muslim and French values to be irreconcilable

 

Macron seems fine but I'm always leery of socialists

 

If I were French I'd probably move to Italy while they're still handing out checks for kids and ditch the French before they vote in a reactionary PM that disintegrates the EU

[Shamitako]

Quote

Muslim and French values [are] irreconcilable

Unfortunately, this is starting to look like the way things are.

 

While I have nothing against the practice of Islam as a religion nor the Muslims who practice it, I do very strongly believe in secularism and Islamism as a political ideology directly rejects secularism. I've come to realize, however, that there's not a very thick line between the two. If Muslims wish to participate in western society, I think they're going to have to reject some of their values.

 

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As for Macron and Le Pen, I actually think Le Pen has a shot at winning. I don't think she will, but I don't think it's as set in stone as some people seem to think. With the massive tantrum the EU has been throwing after Brexit, I'd personally support Le Pen over Macron because he's pro-EU. It doesn't help that he's a socialist either, which is something I'm definitely not ~~despite what that one game says.~~

 

I also have my qualms with Le Pen though. Particularly how her attitude towards Islam is extremely paranoid, far beyond disavowing it as a political ideology. I'm concerned that she'll place heavy restrictions on its practice or even attempt to ban it entirely. (Again, I'm a very strong supporter of secularism, which Le Pen does not appear to be.)

 

TBH tho, I'm pretty biased, I might just be against Macron for being a guy.

 

With Hope,

Lexi

[HughJ]

3 hours ago, KosherKitten said:

While I have nothing against the practice of Islam as a religion nor the Muslims who practice it, I do very strongly believe in secularism and Islamism as a political ideology directly rejects secularism. I've come to realize, however, that there's not a very thick line between the two. If Muslims wish to participate in western society, I think they're going to have to reject some of their values.

 

~~~

 

(Again, I'm a very strong supporter of secularism, which Le Pen does not appear to be.)

 

"Advocating that the FN remains a non-denominational party, Marine Le Pen regularly states her attachment to secularism (laïcité) in French society. She vigorously defends the 1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State, stipulating that the French republic does not recognise, grant a salary to, or subsidise any form of religious worship."

- From her Wikipedia article

 

Le Pen across much of her platform (pro-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-iconography) appears to be very much a supporter of secularism. Personally I think she's just taken that stance to the extreme (perhaps as part of the 'de-demonization' of her party). She doesn't want any religious iconography in public, which I think is excessive and difficult to enforce. It's not the government's place to tell people what they should and shouldn't wear, and it certainly isn't its place to send people home or remove their clothing when it doesn't conform to a politician's decrees.

 

As for the irreconcilability of secularism and Islamic beliefs: every Muslim American I've ever personally interacted with has been just as Western as anyone else. Realistically, the religion is perfectly compatible with Western values if its observers allow the doctrine to modernize. Westerners' perception of Islam is warped by our extensive participation in and media coverage of the war-torn countries where Islam happens to be a majority. This is only natural, as we look to countries where a demographic is the majority in an attempt to understand how they might behave. But if you're looking for a real example of how Muslim and Western values might mix, look at densely-Muslim cities and regions within Western civilization.

 

For example, in Detroit, Michigan, there is a large Muslim American population whose behavior and attitude is just as American as anyone else's. Muslim people there are motivated and constructive, towards both American institutions and realizing peace among their own religious community.

 

From my perspective, we have to remember that Islam is a young religion. Formed in the 600's, it has only been around 1400 years. Remember how barbaric Christianity was in 1400 AD? It needs time to modernize, by a mixture of supporting refugees by showing them the value of Western values like tolerance (I know you'll laugh, but it's relative) and allowing the Middle East to work itself out on its own (no more American carpet bombing, please).

Edited April 27, 2017 by HughJ

[Shamitako]

It's not secularism if you're trying to remove religion entirely

 

But I suppose if she's actually perfectly secular then I just have another reason to support her, no?

 

Also I actually don't see a problem with Islamism in the middle east right now. Those are Islamic states, and while I think Islamism is a bad thing, I also think it has the right to work itself out without outside meddling

[Cool Girl]

As a French Muslim, I also do not like LePen. I'm not really for Macron either. But yeah, we definitely see similarities between the French elections and American elections. Me personally, I think this election is a mess. My parents voted and my dad didn't vote for neither of those candidates. My mom, however, voted for Macron, but then regretted it after she voted for him.

 

Also, this may help with understanding the French elections, but France does not have a Electoral College. The way it works is that you vote and you have the choice of all the candidates and then the two candidates with the most votes move on to the next round.

 

In my opinion, that is a good voting system better than the Electoral College as I feel that system represents the people's voices.

 

Also, allow me to translate Chase's topic title for you guys. It means: Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity.

 

I'll be honest, I was not expecting a lot of people here to talk about the French Elections so yeah. Thanks for the conversation, Chase.

[Zarc]

2 weeks of lying , promesses , corruption etc etc incoming ( well like every elections ) , once again : we have to vote for the less worst candidate , Macron or Le Pen will never change France situation in my opinion

Edited April 28, 2017 by Zarc

[Chase]

While I'm not going to say that Islam is a religion that needs to be washed out (as that would be a TON of work, for one, that wouldn't ever get done) - I do believe it falls on the nominal Muslim population to positively influence their radical brothers and sisters - and that it falls on the rest of the population to provide consequences to uphold order should they refuse to intervene.

 

While there are atrocities that happen all the time in Islamic dominant areas in the Middle East and intervening where we shouldn't is one thing, attacks like Paris has seen shouldn't be just "allowed to straighten itself out."

 

In America, the equivalent of that would be to allow an action like the plane hijackings on September 11th, 2001 to go unchecked. While there may be some semblance of sound reasoning behind non-intervention, it's a horrific affront for a politician to effectively fail to defend their own people - when it's their job to do so. Another example of this - for those of you with beef remaining from the Bush years, was the reaction to Pearl Harbor before America entered World War II.

 

Is any transgression against human life - even our own - an idea we should stomach? As one who holds life as valuable, no. However, presidents and prime ministers don't work in a vacuum where preserving the most life possible wins the day. There are some enemies out there that will ask for a glass of milk if you give them a cookie. That glass of milk ultimately costs more of "your own" lives if you keep acquiescing.

 

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This is where I can sympathize with anti-Muslim nationalists in this day and age - even though their passion on the subject is rather unsettling. A politician that tries to embrace the idea of Islamism without drawing the line and acting when it is crossed isn't a politician that cares about their own people all that much, no matter how pure the dream of everyone "getting along" after Islam figures itself out abroad is.

 

France has put up with quite a lot of problems involving radicalized Islam. To put those under the rug as propaganda points for conservative French citizens is remiss of any opponent to someone who highlights them as issues.

 

If Macron wants to embrace more of Fillon's base, he will need to acknowledge that Islamic terrorism is a problem, and suggest an alternative that isn't as crazy as Le Pen's. I sincerely hope that he does, because Le Pen seems more unsettling as a leader than he.

 

And the truth is, both of them are green.

[HughJ]

2 hours ago, Chase said:

France has put up with quite a lot of problems involving radicalized Islam. To put those under the rug as propaganda points for conservative French citizens is remiss of any opponent to someone who highlights them as issues.

 

This is a very astute point, well said. While I haven't seen any left candidates in the Western world outright dismiss acts of terror as propaganda, there has definitely been a combination of cover-ups (Merkell smothering the ongoing migrant rape crisis) and distraction (citing the mental illness of terrorists and brushing over the strong trend of conversion/recruitment immediately before a strike).

 

2 hours ago, Chase said:

If Macron wants to embrace more of Fillon's base, he will need to acknowledge that Islamic terrorism is a problem...

 

Macron's platform and general appearance belies that of another milquetoast corporatist à la the Clintons or Marco Rubio. Even if he does take a page out of the currently-popular reactionary campaigns and ramp up his platform going into the last week, I sincerely doubt he'll effect any change in-office.

[Zarc]

12 hours ago, Cool Girl said:

I'll be honest, I was not expecting a lot of people here to talk about the French Elections so yeah. Thanks for the conversation, Chase.

 

 

damn you're right , so much attentions for our specie

[Zarc]

He will win yeah , 8 min left

[Zarc]

It's done , Macron president with 65%