Stereotypes in Reborn?

[Jess]

Why in Pokemon Reborn almost all straight male characters are either dumb and try to bruteforce things (e.g. Hardy, Samson) or criminals/jerks (e.g. Fern, Sirius, Solaris, Corey)? Isn't this sliiiightly stereotypical towards men?

[Wolfox]

Best I could guess is to let the female characters be the more liked and developed characters? But then again there's Cain, and who doesn't like Cain?

 

but this is a really good question that I would like to know some more of, so @Amethyst hate to bother you on your happy day, but mind shining some light on it?

[HongaarseBeer]

Shade is a cool dude

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, Jess said:

Why in Pokemon Reborn almost all straight male characters are either dumb and try to bruteforce things (e.g. Hardy, Samson) or criminals/jerks (e.g. Fern, Sirius, Solaris, Corey)? Isn't this sliiiightly stereotypical towards men?

Ya got a VERY good point,the females are WAY more smarter than the males,as far as I seen there's more importent female characters than male

[Jess]

@Wolfox Yes, Cain is great, why I said straight guys...  Sorry for that, lol! I only just realised that just a handful of guys without feminine attributes are 100% good (not "slips" like Cal or Corey, even if plot elements justify them, or give them the chance to redeem themselves).

@HongaarseBeer Shade is a cool entity/ghost. I... I would not call him a man! Not in his current state at least!

[Wolfox]

Radomus and Noel (father and son, I tell you!)

[J-Awesome_One]

Well (just assuming here) the gym leaders are based off of real people. So maybe their personalities are actually how they're portrayed in the game? Although idk about the non-gym leaders. (Cain, Victoria, etc. also, no matter how many times people tell me, I can never remember if the non-gym leaders are based on real people too or not.)

[EndearingCharacterTrait]

Part of it is just because most of the gym leaders are female, and most of them are good people

[Jess]

1 minute ago, Wolfox said:

Radomus and Noel (father and son, I tell you!)

These two (I suspect Radomus is related to Anna and Noel too. Why he insisted on keeping the Amethyst pendant) and DJ Arclight.

Only ones 100% good.

On the contrary, we have 100% good female characters:

Victoria,

Amaria,

Aya,

Charlotte,

Ciel, 

Florinia,

Julia, 

Kiki,

Luna, 

Serra,

Shelly,

Anna,

Heather,

Laura.

 

It is hugely unbalanced in favour of females. None of these has commited a single crime, or has performed ANY questionable actions. Heather was being a brat, but nothing illegal with that! 

But men? Let's see...

 

Cain: Great guy, but with feminine attributes as well. I'll accept him, since I also counted Amaria in the good female characters! (No sexism here, pls don't hate me)

Fern: No comment on him. BAD.

Adrienn: is neither male nor female.

Corey: was a Meteor (for whatever reasons, he was a criminal)

Hardy: No brains, let's just get overcome by emotion and bruteforce everything! If POWAAAH doesn't help, we're donezo. Great guy, but dumb.

Noel: At last a smart good guy! You're the hope kid!

Radomus: IS THERE GOD?! Second in a row!

Samson: Hardy category. At least he was smart enough to lock Terra in PC. I accept him as well!

Shade: Not a man, ghost rather

Arc: Great guy and clever, hands down, he's awesome

Bennett: Fern category, with enhanced cringe levels.

Blake: Fern with Ice

Cal: murderer with remorse

El: fanatic lunatic freak

Sigmund: insane doctor

Sirius, Zero, Solaris: criminals

Taka: shadow helper of us, not enough balls to withdraw from Team Meteor. (even though it's convenient to us).

[seki108]

5 minutes ago, Awesome_One said:

Cain, Victoria, etc. also, no matter how many times people tell me, I can never remember if the non-gym leaders are based on real people too or not.

I think most main characters, outside of Team Meteor--except Lin--, fall into the 'based on real people' category.

 

I think this issue is mostly coincidental because of the circumstances of the IRL Reborn League, like @Awesome_One was saying.

[FairFamily]

Just now, Jess said:

These two (I suspect Radomus is related to Anna and Noel too. Why he insisted on keeping the Amethyst pendant) and DJ Arclight.

Only ones 100% good.

On the contrary, we have 100% good female characters:

Victoria,

Amaria,

Aya,

Charlotte,

Ciel, 

Florinia,

Julia, 

Kiki,

Luna, 

Serra,

Shelly,

Anna,

Heather,

Laura.

 

It is hugely unbalanced in favour of females. None of these has commited a single crime, or has performed ANY questionable actions. Heather was being a brat, but nothing illegal with that! 

But men? Let's see...

 

Cain: Great guy, but with feminine attributes as well. I'll accept him, since I also counted Amaria in the good female characters! (No sexism here, pls don't hate me)

Fern: No comment on him. BAD.

Adrienn: is neither male nor female.

Corey: was a Meteor (for whatever reasons, he was a criminal)

Hardy: No brains, let's just get overcome by emotion and bruteforce everything! If POWAAAH doesn't help, we're donezo. Great guy, but dumb.

Noel: At last a smart good guy! You're the hope kid!

Radomus: IS THERE GOD?! Second in a row!

Samson: Hardy category. At least he was smart enough to lock Terra in PC. I accept him as well!

Shade: Not a man, ghost rather

Arc: Great guy and clever, hands down, he's awesome

Bennett: Fern category, with enhanced cringe levels.

Blake: Fern with Ice

Cal: murderer with remorse

El: fanatic lunatic freak

Sigmund: insane doctor

Sirius, Zero, Solaris: criminals

Taka: shadow helper of us, not enough balls to withdraw from Team Meteor. (even though it's convenient to us).

 

You forgot The queen of booty. Also Cain did a huge dick move by making aya reserve without telling her.

 

Also a few stereotypes:

Everyone can use their pokemon outside of battle in various ways except the main character. He can only use HM moves. Cain is the biggest offender.

 

Only the MC has a level cap.

 

 

 

[Jess]

@FairFamily So, out of the women, the only jerks are Terra, and the murdering duo (Titania and Saphira). And Lin of course. 4 out of 19. Or 6 out of 19, counting Eve and Lumi too. Percentage: ~32%

Cain's was a dick move, but not illegal. He wouldn't be imprisoned for not accepting the reserve position. Out of men, we have "questionable" ones, as: 11 out of 17, counting Zero too. Percentage: ~65%.

 

I just don't find it fair.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Jess

[DemICE]

Y' know solaris is actually pretty decent. He just happens to be the bad guy.

Screw El tho

Edited July 31, 2017 by DemICE

[EndearingCharacterTrait]

7 minutes ago, DemICE said:

Y' know solaris is actually pretty decent. He just happens to be the bad guy.

Screw El tho

I disagree about Solaris...he was willing to kill the player, Amaria, and did kill Kiki, just for standing in his way, which is why we find Titania and Saphira questionable. Never mind the things Team Meteor is willing to do for the sake of their goal (however much of that is him and not Lin) 

[DemICE]

Well thats why he is the villain. He doesnt do things half-heartedly.  But he isnt like Lin who is a sadist. If hes gonna kill someone for the sake of his goals, he will do it straightforwardly.

[Filthy Casual]

1 hour ago, Jess said:

Why in Pokemon Reborn almost all straight male characters are either dumb and try to bruteforce things (e.g. Hardy, Samson) or criminals/jerks (e.g. Fern, Sirius, Solaris, Corey)? Isn't this sliiiightly stereotypical towards men?

What about the Victoria stereotype? That's the stereotype when a character says something like this to us:

 

"Oh, what's that? You need to do something really important that could potentially save the lives of others? That's nice and all, but I don't think you can/should, so I'm just going to fight and try to stop you."

 

In Victoria's case in particular, she then whines about you defeating her after the battle ends.

25 minutes ago, EndearingCharacterTrait said:

I disagree about Solaris...he was willing to kill the player, Amaria, and did kill Kiki, just for standing in his way, which is why we find Titania and Saphira questionable. Never mind the things Team Meteor is willing to do for the sake of their goal (however much of that is him and not Lin) 

There is a secret room in by El's prayer chamber at seventh street explaining a bit of Solaris's backstory. In it, this happens...

Spoiler

His parents end up dead due to a common criminal. I think the reason that he is pushed to the extreme is because he is trying to find some sort of justice for the death of his parents. He's still a horrible human for it, but still, it's at least a reason, and much better than Sirius's "MUAHAHAHAHA, I'M SO EVIL AND DASTARDLY!"

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by FactoryofSadness

[iHateCrits]

well you have to understand that ame isnt trying to put down men in any way

theres always a gender bias when it comes to creating a character for a story and more times than not one of them just "feels" more natural than the other to fullfil a role

for example ive always leaned towards having a female protagonists for my stories

is it because i hate men? no i just think its cooler and i still dont know why

now i would agree that they are worse male characters than fem characters, but ame was most likely unaware of the imbalance when creating these characters and she shouldnt be pressured into creating some form of gender balance

[EndearingCharacterTrait]

@FactoryofSadness It seems to me that Solaris and Saphira aren't really that different; she is willing to eliminate anyone who might harm her sisters, and she was definitely affected by the trauma of losing her parents. Saphira just happens to be aligned with the MC, and even then mostly just because we already sided with Charlotte since she's genuinely good.

[TwinAero]

"Its because of toxic masculinity! Men need to be allowed to let their pent up emotions out! When they get stressed out and can't think clearly they don't respond as well as they could've!" - Amethyst

...is what my guess would be that is subconsciously going on for Ame. The females aren't flawless, but their "weaknesses" seem to affect more inward than outward. Titania's self loathing, Florinia's stoicism, Serra's midlife crisis, Shelly's withdrawal, Luna's eternal tea party. In contrast to Cal lashing out at others, Bennett over-eager to prove his own desirability, Corey's Skydiving, Sigmund spreading his pain, Radomus being cryptic.

[Seal]

Being a criminal doesn't mean having a stereotypical personality.

[Jess]

1 hour ago, iHateCrits said:

now i would agree that they are worse male characters than fem characters, but ame was most likely unaware of the imbalance when creating these characters and she shouldnt be pressured into creating some form of gender balance

I was in no way "pressuring" Amethyst in creating gender balance. I just stated an imbalance that personally bothers me throughout the game. I think everyone is allowed  to express questions and productively criticise a game. Amethyst herself has said so, and I know she wouldn't be offended by this. And, of course, I know that this imbalance was not intentional. After all, a person like Ame who has included non-binary gender in her game would never do anything even remotely sexist.

 

1 hour ago, TwinAero said:

"Its because of toxic masculinity! Men need to be allowed to let their pent up emotions out! When they get stressed out and can't think clearly they don't respond as well as they could've!" - Amethyst

...is what my guess would be that is subconsciously going on for Ame. The females aren't flawless, but their "weaknesses" seem to affect more inward than outward. Titania's self loathing, Florinia's stoicism, Serra's midlife crisis, Shelly's withdrawal, Luna's eternal tea party. In contrast to Cal lashing out at others, Bennett over-eager to prove his own desirability, Corey's Skydiving, Sigmund spreading his pain, Radomus being cryptic.

I don't think this happens subconsciously in Ame's mind, but in the entire society. Women are always guided by their weaknesses and men by their denial to show their weaknesses. And this is something that should change, in order to achieve true gender equality at some point. Because not all women are helpless before their weaknesses, nor all men refuse to show their weaknesses/cry and accept them.

 

The fact that almost all women (apart from Titania and Saphira) are affected inwards by their past and weaknesses, while most men do express aggressiveness and/or delinquence (sometimes to the extreme), is on itself a stereotype. In reality, many men become introverts as a result of school bullying and many women are themselves the culprits of delivering this school bullying. 

 

I'd like to see this pattern breaking at some point in this game, and see some guy giving useful advice, like what Charlotte says about not succumbing to blackmailing, or how Anna says that when moments aren't appropriate is when it is the most needed to smile and be cheerful.

I'd love to see Hardy or Samson give similar advice, instead of being stereotypical "men", that don't think and get carried away by emotions, approaching everything with the Rock-solid, Fighting-oriented approach.

 

1 hour ago, Seal said:

Being a criminal doesn't mean having a stereotypical personality.

We could use some more female criminals in Team Meteor though... I don't think it would put a dent in society's image of "fragile, men-victimised" woman.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Jess

[RhythmMelody]

34 minutes ago, Jess said:

 I just stated an imbalance that personally bothers me throughout the game.

 

I'll sign this. But the imbalance I find the most annoying is... age. Like seriously, where are the adults? Well, almost all in Team Meteor one could guess but theres an orphanage full of gym leaders and Elite 4 members. Thats what is bothering me the most.

[Jess]

7 minutes ago, RhythmMelody said:

 

I'll sign this. But the imbalance I find the most annoying is... age. Like seriously, where are the adults? Well, almost all in Team Meteor one could guess but theres an orphanage full of gym leaders and Elite 4 members. Thats what is bothering me the most.

True. Is there an age limit after which you become a criminal? 

I'm also annoyed, as @FairFamily said, that Cain can Slime Surf on a Muk (wtf, my Muk was defective and couldn't do this), he can use his Nidoking to break Agate's gate (wtf, my Nidoking was defective too and couldn't do this) and Saphira's been constantly using the "Metal bar-door tear" HM with his Dragonite at Tanzan Mountain, which I presume is a Steel type HM we will get at lvl. 100.

 

Also, some more crossroads and choices implemented for the player would decrease the feeling of helplessness I felt when I saw them making stupid decisions. But I understand that scripting it is VERY troublesome and time-consuming, as it includes coding separate paths.

Regardless, it is much, much better in character development and story than all of the original games and most (if not all) of the fangames. So, props to the developing team, and mostly Ame for that.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Jess

[DemICE]

Best HM is Amaria's Ice Ladder.

[Jess]

37 minutes ago, DemICE said:

Best HM is Amaria's Ice Ladder.

Which she didn't use to save that Oshawott for some weird reason!

I guess it is solely to make ladders, not bridges as well. xD