A Conservative Rants About Trump (Finally)

[Chase]

First off - let's not pretend that President Trump's ascendency is a farce caused by the combined forces of a waffling FBI Director and solely by the influence of Russian agents interfering with our election here. There are a few people in this community - let alone the country - that had faith in President Trump enough to earn him their vote - and their concerns for the country hold as much value as the rest of ours regardless of how we feel about the current situation.

 

We cool here? Fantastic.

 

---

 

In my neck of the woods, the support for President Trump remains high. "It's just six months into a four year presidency - give him a chance to get going." "I don't respect Trump's personhood but you should want him to succeed in respect for the office of the presidency - and for the prosperity of America." "People need to stop crying and line up behind the president - every four years there's a winner and a loser."

 

... and there are certainly victories for Trump's defenders to point to. Trump has so far benefit from a market that seemingly holds his lesser tendency to regulate business in comparison to the previous president in high regard, rewarding the president with economic growth early on. President Trump's military has functioned effectively on the front with the Islamic State, driving them out of Iraq. President Obama and President Trump are both jointly sharing a decrease in unemployment.

 

However, that doesn't seemingly hold as much weight as it should - largely part to the mainstream media openly showing support for the so-called "Resistance" during regular programming, but also due to the President's own faux pas - and as much as anyone who wants "the prosperity of America" to prevail - it's the latter that causes one to realize President Trump's influence in Washington is downright ineffectual in certain areas where it needs to have some effect at best, and outright chaotic at worst.

 

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The White House for example, has become a PARAGON of unemployment since Trump took the reigns. We saw Sean Spicer leaving Press Secy. after Trump hires Anthony Scaramucci for Communications Director, a job that the Mooch would only hold for ELEVEN. DAYS. - but not before he would SUCCESSFULLY call Chief of Staff Reince Priebus' ouster during the week and a half. Then there was FBI Director James Comey, whose firing officially set off the alarms that "Russiagate" may have some merit. It all started with Fmr. Obama appointee Sally Yates being fired for allegedly failing to instate parts of President Trump's travel ban - days after she reportedly threw Michael Flynn to the sharks for dealing with Russia's ambassador during the campaign.

 

Trump seemingly has established a dog-eat-world environment at 1600 Pennsylvania that new Chief of Staff (Gen. John Kelly) must correct quickly - that has unsettling ties to Russia, further fueling allegations that the President is beholden to the Kremlin. It looks like something out of Game of Thrones or an episode of the President's former reality television show - the Apprentice. This probably explains why Trump feels there isn't something wrong with this staff's organization.

 

---

 

On Capital Hill, you have differing opinions of the President depending on which legislative body you are talking about.

 

The House of Representatives has a slim majority where they need to wrangle -most- of the Republican conference to pass legislation forward. This rightward-leaning government body has found a pretty shaky ally in the President, often bringing the White House in on legislative structure here due to the ability to lose a few Republicans in a vote if the President threatens someone well enough. It's here where the President doesn't have to yield much in return for his input - and often doesn't. It's also here where Trump's antagonistic persuasions have wreaked havoc on the American people (i.e. the twitter posts indicating transgender servicemen and women being removed from service - a response to hawkish conservatives who wanted the President to support yanking funding from the significantly less major issue of the military offering sex assignment surgery - made in issue simply because Republicans couldn't come to a consensus either way.)

 

The Senate? They have no "real" majority at all - forcing Trump to badger Majority Leader Mitch McConnell about subverting regular order and passing any legislature the Senate has down a party line vote. He didn't bring in bi-partisan parties to forge an alliance on healthcare, nor did he effectively threaten and cajole Republicans into supporting a repeal plan - leading to last weeks catastrophic failure. The Obama administration was led by a former senator who drafted his own healthcare bill as President and did a lot of heavy lifting to garner support among his conference. Trump? Noticeably only present cheerleading from Twitter and then complaining about other people failing to deliver the goods. Where the House at least gets some support - the Senate has been hung to dry by it's allied president.

 

Depending on which side of the Capital you work in - you either -are- terrified of Trump's less-than-friendly approach to making things work - or you are shrugging as the complainer-in-chief has no visible effect.

 

---

 

Finally, the court of public opinion has reviled not only the president, but his legislative attempts. The only thing that was more hated than the President, according to national approval ratings, -was- the once-imminent Obamacare repeal plan that was a vote shy of escaping the Senate floor and was very much in sight of Trump's desk. This president's inability to correct his course elsewhere has caused not only his popularity to fall faster than any new president - but it has placed any legislative effort Americans who voted for him are supposed to support to suffer as well. It's not just partisan disapprove or a mere "victory for the resistance" here. It's a slow burnout of Republicans who see proverbial flames whipping the white stone on 1600 Pennsylvania and hate Russia more than any other country even if they don't know the good reasons why.

 

I didn't vote for President Trump - but I do hold value in supporting him in his quest for success because a President that is able to hold down the fort is an a-ok president that needs to improve by the end of his first term.

 

He's made it very, very, VERY hard. His Twitter activity is downright frustrating, and people walking out of the White House weekly isn't reassuring.

 

 

 

[PokeFailure]

This is why I want a dog to be president. No corruption scandals(Aside form Putin giving him doggy treats), high approval rating, and there's only so much you can do as a news outlet to bash a dog president. 

 

It's never going to happen and is a horribly stupid idea but if a reality TV star can be president so can a dog damn it and you made a lot of good points.

[Eviora]

No, this is not just the result of Comey's investigation of Hillary and Russian interference with the election.

 

It's the result of the pure idiocy of a large percentage of American voters.

 

Trump's been an erratic narcissist for the entirety of the campaign. The whole way he's just acted out for attention, changed his stances at the drop of a hat, ignored the issues in favor of the drama. And "we the people" voted for that. Now entertainment is cheaper than ever before; every news channel runs reality TV. What else was anyone expecting? Intelligent leadership? Trump's only brilliance is in his ability to keep people looking at him. Compromise? We're talking about a man who made rude nicknames for his competitors then replaced the attacks with praise for their integrity the moment they dropped out of the race. Everything is "win or lose" to Trump. Honesty? If you were expecting that, you can't have been paying enough attention. Willingness to attack anyone and everyone does not imply personal integrity.

 

Trump is a sham. He was always a sham. When he announced his candidacy, just about everyone knew that. But then his opponents were eliminated one by one, and rather than admit to being manipulated, the people of this "great nation" decided to put their pride first. The country voted for outrageous, and now we have it. If anything, Trump has been tamer than we had any right to expect. But as his administration crumbles around him, in large part by his own hand, I wonder whether he won't show the world who exactly we elevated to the highest office in our nation.

 

At any rate, I imagine it will be entertaining.

[Maelstrom]

You do realize how flawed the idea of 'supporting him because we want him to succeed', right? We can't support him because of the worse things that happens when he succeeds at doing what he wants.

 

He's more interested in vacationing and spending time at his own resorts (chalked up to taxpayer tabs, mind you) than really getting shit done. He's a pure show-man. He's out touring and paling around, telling his voters about how much he has won, decidedly distracting them from the fact that he hasn't. He's a walking, talking joke. A joke that has you laughing because otherwise you'd be crying. Cuz again, he's all show. He's never been the one actually produce or make anything of actual substance. He 'has the best people' cuz they're the ones that do the real work and job for him. Except when they don't, because he's just easily swayed by men just like him- look at the Mooch, they yesman that thought he could get away with anything because he threw away his dignity to work for Trump. You look at Spicer and you have to feel sorry at how hard he tried to maintain his dignity while working for a moron. Trumpcare wasn't designed by him. He passed that off to Paul Ryan, who disappointed a lot of people when his plan, and the ones later debated in the house and senate, proved to prioritize money going to the wrong people. Isn't it obvious by now? Even you, Chase, have written in past posts about how he was clearly listening to Kushner now, after doing crazy and wacky things while listening to other people (like Bannon). He has no idea what he's doing and he's never had a real idea on how to implement anything he has said he would do. Prosecute Hillary? Trump said 'fuck that, I got what I wanted out of that, I ain't gonna try to do that shit. That would be work.' Now that he's in office, he's done his best to hire people and then delegate to them every single responsibility the president has. Who knew health care would be so complicated? Everybody who actually gave a damn and paused a moment out of their life to look up the topic and think about it... which is literally everyone else. Again, he had no idea how to do it, so he let Paul Ryan do Paul Ryan's thing, that thing he told everyone he was working on for years... and just look at it now.

 

Well, if the Republican goal was to isolate the US from the rest of the world, Trump's done just that. I guess I can appreciate the fact that European countries are sitting up straight and looking to do more things for themselves now... After realizing that they now get no leadership or support from the US anymore. That moral superiority that allowed us to lead and influence other countries and their actions are pretty much gone now. That certainly leaves the US with less political clout, which could and has been leveraged to benefit American economic interests in the past. We didn't go into Iraq or Afghanistan alone. It certainly jeopardizes any allied support if North Korea does any more than all the bird flipping they've done recently. Who would follow Trump into N Korea, send their nation's troops and money in... after Trump decided he cared more about American big business interests than the entire rest of the World. "I represent Pittsburgh, not Paris." Bitch please, you represent people who would rather take shortcuts to save money now and be more competitive against manufacturers from other countries who would dare submit themselves to following safety and environmental regulations. It's just incredibly selfish, especially considering that it was American clout that originally founded and pushed these ideas onto other countries. We were the guys that stood up and said, yo, this affects the entire world so what we gotta do is stand up together and agree on something fair and practical. Set goals and develop technologies and techniques to get us there- with the realization that it's going to cost all of us to do it. Now... we've got the human embodiment of the Swamp he claimed he'd clear out of Washington. Hiring Wall Street figures and oil company CEO's... Even if he's too deranged for any of them, or anyone else, to actually get a handle on him.

 

You have to look at his actions and his tweets and realize that what he says... that's really him. You can't keep saying, 'Don't pay attention to what he says, pay attention what he does.' They both say the same thing. He's thoughtless and petty, through and through.

 

Yeah, some people use the metaphor that he's the shitty captain that everyone hopes to succeed cuz he's the one piloting us. I say, he's the guy who is flying this thing because he got an honorary license for being rich and wanted to actually fly himself because he wanted to walk around with the Captain's hat on. That isn't the guy you keep letting fly the plane. That's the guy you detain for fraud in the cargo hold and replace with someone else asap. You see, this is a country-sized plane with people on board who actually know how to fly. We have any number of people who have made policy (flying) their whole careers who just aren't captain right now.

 

Quite frankly it makes no sense to support him just because he's the pilot. We've got other, better pilots. Ya'll that wanna support him till he succeeds... it isn't because you don't want us all to crash. You're just feverishly hoping that you won't have to say that you were wrong. You would rather wait to see if he pulls us out of the nosedive before it's too late than take on the responsibility for the decision to put him in the driver's seat. All his legislative losses are a result of Democrat and Republican reps looking over his shoulder like driving instructors and forcefully stomping on the brakes before he can crash us. We can't keep him there.

 

For the respect of the office of the President? That office has lost its respect and prestige since he's been in it. If we really have respect for the office and what it represents, we have to get him out of there before he finishes ruining it. For some things, you can expect a learning curve. But he isn't learning. He's a toddler whining about unfair treatment when they try to keep him accountable for his actions and his bad ideas. Whoever is President is supposed to be one of the best of us. Everything about him absolutely screams that he isn't.

 

'The Oval Office has no corners.' It is our democratic duty to hold him responsible. How many passes are Republicans gonna give him because he ended up being their candidate? He shammed his way into the office and people are afraid to admit that they were taken in by it. Republicans might say I'm on my high horse, sharing my very vehement opinions about him, and calling republicans wrong and conned. But what I want for them is to man up and help us fix this. I don't care if his replacement is another Republican. There are still so many republicans who clearly aren't as incompetent, false, or as mean-spirited as Trump. And for those of the people I know voted for Trump because of a "Anybody but Hillary" mentality... I really hope they now understand why I railed against that attitude.

 

Edit:

We made a mistake as a country when he was elected, whether or not people could see it then. We certainly keep seeing it now. The thing about a DEMOCRACY is that when the government and people in those offices don't do what they're supposed to, we as a people have the ability to stand up and change it. And we wanna change it, Chase, not just hang in there until Trump gets a reality check that sinks in. Every criticism of him by the press IS a reality check, there have been a ton of 'em, and none of them have sunk in.

[Chase]

As a Republican - it's not so much that I think Trump is good for the office or that I'm opposed to having him impeached.

 

• Mueller needs to be able to get space in his investigation - which would benefit both Trump -and- his opponents in the long run, depending on how involved Trump -really- is with Russia.
• The reasons people voted for Trump are legitimate - even if Trump isn't going to be the deliverer his voters hoped.

 

I'm above "I told you so" here. The arguments Trumpers provide are valid. It's still only six months, the media has been providing him bad press since he began his campaign, and he has some wins on the board (Justice Gorsuch, backing out of the Paris Accord, positive economic growth, actively working with companies to create American jobs, ISIS, less unemployment)

 

I'm -not- going to target his voters on principle. The voters didn't necessarily ASK Trump to take a shot at transgender servicemen and women (You're more right in asserting his twitter is more a representation of he himself!) The voters didn't ask for Trump to be indecisive with his staff. The voters didn't ask Trump to give key WH positions to his family. They didn't ask him to stay up into the late hours of the night to erupt on Twitter.

 

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All that aside, I just want the plane to stay flying, becoming increasing more exasperated with our "pilot's" glaring incompetence. I shouldn't be able to look at myself and say "You know Hunter, you could be President and get more results than this guy." when I haven't got my whole life figured out and I'm not in a financial safety net like President Trump and I'm prone to make mistakes. While I was absolutely not going to vote for Hillary - I ended up not voting for Trump and abandoning principles.

 

There are several senators on both sides of the aisle that share that sentiment - and Trump's inability to coerce the Senate could prove fatal as more information about Russia gets brought to light. I think Senate Republicans are feeling more and more at ease with sending their own party's presidential nominee OUT of the White House. They just need more hard evidence than what they have.

 

[Eviora]

20 minutes ago, Chase said:

I'm above "I told you so" here. The arguments Trumpers provide are valid. It's still only six months, the media has been providing him bad press since he began his campaign, and he has some wins on the board (Justice Gorsuch, backing out of the Paris Accord, positive economic growth, actively working with companies to create American jobs, ISIS, less unemployment)

 

 

I'm having a hard time taking you seriously right now.

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Eviora

[Chase]

For clarification, I'm not speaking in terms of my own views. Ask a Trump voter about the Paris Accord, they're somewhat more likely to admit backing out of the deal was good for America than anyone else. If a Trump voter can see positives wrought from their vote (even if they aren't actually positives!) then they will be less likely to be the kind of Republican Mael hopes fixes their mistake.

[Eviora]

So you're defining "win" in such a way that reinstituting segregation laws would count as winning if the voters were depraved enough to want that.

 

Not a terribly useful definition, I think. Trump would be proud, though.

 

By the way, yes, people are 100% responsible for being duped and for ignoring the obvious outcomes of their vote because Hillary.

 

[Chase]

If a voter gets what they want out of the person they voted for - I would indeed count that as a win. Especially if Trump made that a campaign promise. Yes.

 

I do agree that they are responsible for making their own decision - but it only goes so far as that. They were lulled into believing the President would do X and missed the mark on Y. That doesn't make them bad voters.

 

Hillary is to blame for Hillary for the most part. It would be one thing if her candidacy was reinforced with a sterling character that didn't have issues of it's own.

[Eviora]

That definition of winning is short-sighted to the point of irresponsibility. If our small "victory" today *cough* Paris Accord *cough* ends up fucking us over in two decades, it really wasn't much of a victory, was it?

 

Not seeing a blatant fraud for what he is (or, worse, seeing and supporting him anyway) sounds more like it would make someone a "bad voter" going by any meaningful definition of the term. Of course, we could argue semantics for hours. However, having legitimate concerns does not justify doing really stupid or malicious stuff in a half-blind attempt to address those concerns. Trump hasn't really done anything too surprising so far, for those who were paying attention to his character.

 

I'm all out of hilarious images. Sorry, everyone.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Eviora

[Chase]

This is however, where people make the argument that the alternative isn't better in regards to those concerns, and where Trump voters that expected Trump to Trump can point to areas where Hilllary being Hillary would be just as damaging.

 

With regards to Russia, it wasn't too long ago that the same Hillary Clinton was less concerned about Russia to the point where she tried to orchestrate the "Russian Reset" alongside the Obama administration. This same administration would allow Russia to mess with neighboring Georgia and the Ukraine and eventually would ally itself with President Bashar Assad - where the Russians would be subject to heavy scrutiny in regards to human ethics. Russia seems to be bad - when a Republican wants to be the one being friendly instead of a Democrat.

 

The solution to spiking healthcare premiums continuing to rise isn't to force people to pay an individual mandate or suffer with those premium hikes - yet Trump's opponent wanted to fix and expand the very legislation that was hurting people on that front - where Trump promised to remove that burden.

 

Then you can point to pay-for-play instances with the Clinton Foundation, and what you have is a woman who's character is just as questionable, if not as loud, as her opponent's.

 

---

 

If both choices to a person are bad - people who are being insightful are going to vote based on the policies they feel need to be addressed, not on who the better person is.

[Eviora]

Apparently not? Do you think people voted for Trump over his volatile policies? if that were the truth you'd have ended up with someone half decent like Rubio or Kasich. If you look closely, I think you'll find most people vote based off of emotion, and that negative emotions are easily harnessed.

 

I mean, this topic has changed from you ranting against Trump to you defending him and the people he conned. The shift began when I dared mention Hillary. Policy has little to do with it. They made smearing her the theme of the election, and America bought that image. You are literally fooling yourself the way Trump voters did as we watch. Anything I say is redundant in the face of the way this conversation is unfolding.

[Chase]

I -am- defending the people who voted for Trump, mainly because they were not the intended target of this thread. By you repeatedly doing the opposite - you not only go about your differences with your colleagues with an attitude that suggests you could care less about solving the problem and one that cares more about savoring watching people lament their consequences, you put yourself at risk of harming someone simply because they voted for something they believed in. That's partially what contributes to the hostile political climate we have today - and from having many conversations with you about politics in the past - you are much better than simply repeating the same "it's the voters' fault" line without any input.

 

There are people who voted for President Trump in this community. There's rules in place where disrespecting other community members is considered an offense and therefore I have no wish to belittle and lump them in the pile with their Presidential vote. Whatever their reasoning was/is, whatever the consequences are - this thread was never made with the intent of being malicious to other people here - and I would like you to respect that wish.

 

Now, if you have something about Trump himself to talk about - by all means. I left the floodgates open for THAT kind of criticism.

[Maelstrom]

Since I read evi's responses covering what I ended up writing, Imma just spoiler it so you can skip the redundancy.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Chase said:

It's still only six months, the media has been providing him bad press since he began his campaign,

 

He's earned his bad press.

 

15 hours ago, Chase said:

he has some wins on the board (Justice Gorsuch, backing out of the Paris Accord, positive economic growth, actively working with companies to create American jobs, ISIS, less unemployment)

Yeah, Republicans blocking Obama's nomination until a Republican could do it instead is a Republican win, but not a Trump one.

Backing out of the Paris accord isn't a win. It's a short-sighted farce. Hmm, I'll have to find it where it explains how some of the economic things aren't what you think they are, such as with his deals with coal and other companies.

Um, what exactly did he do to fight Isis again? Other than allow the military to undertake its plans it already had. aka, letting it do its thing. Again, not a win by him.

 

15 hours ago, Chase said:

The voters didn't necessarily ASK Trump to take a shot at transgender servicemen and women (You're more right in asserting his twitter is more a representation of he himself!) The voters didn't ask for Trump to be indecisive with his staff. The voters didn't ask Trump to give key WH positions to his family. They didn't ask him to stay up into the late hours of the night to erupt on Twitter.

No, but they ignored major, glaring flaws that pretty much indicated the kinds of things he's done. What did you think of Trump university and that construction job scam anyways? His 'locker room talk', his petty attacking of anyone who questioned him or disagreed with him, including Fox News people?

Fine, they didn't ask for it, but isn't it time for his voters to tell him to stop? Iirc, some already have at this point...

 

9 hours ago, Chase said:

With regards to Russia, it wasn't too long ago that the same Hillary Clinton was less concerned about Russia to the point where she tried to orchestrate the "Russian Reset" alongside the Obama administration. This same administration would allow Russia to mess with neighboring Georgia and the Ukraine and eventually would ally itself with President Bashar Assad - where the Russians would be subject to heavy scrutiny in regards to human ethics. Russia seems to be bad - when a Republican wants to be the one being friendly instead of a Democrat.

It's the first I've heard of it, tbh. Where is this info coming from?

 

 

... So you've made a bunch of arguments as to why people voted for Trump. You know, the usual 'he said what I wanted to hear to get what he wanted' that a lot of other people saw coming a mile away. Now we move on.

Voting for him and supporting now that he's done what he's done in his official capacity are two different things. We got that. So we're wondering now why he still has support when we have all this hindsight?

[Eviora]

One cannot learn from one's mistakes until one acknowledges their existence. So I will point to all the warning signs, again and again, until Trump voters can accept that it is, at least in part, their fault. Or until I get really sick of it. Even I can't continue this spiel for an eternity.

 

I put myself at risk of harming someone? I can only assume you mean dealing damage to fragile egos. If that's the case... good. Those egos need challenging. Those who cannot own their actions are bound to repeat them - and, in doing so, perhaps cause actual, physical harm to others. Respect is a two way street. You think those who usher in malignant scum like Trump deserve to be shielded from scolding? No, those who act so carelessly or maliciously should be rebuked. Of course, some people will cling to their pride. They will only grow more obstinate when confronted with their mistakes. Those cannot be helped. Not until Trump personally burns them enough times.

 

You say I "could care less" (Implying my level of caring is nonzero? Pet peeve; that expression sucks.) about solving the problems, but how exactly do you expect me to do that? By posting lukewarm criticisms on a video game forum Trump will never look at? That solves exactly nothing. The best way to solve this problem is to sever its roots. Destroy the streams of support that put Trump where he is today so that in 2020 he won't end up there again.

 

That said, it's likely that only a few members are even bothering to read this topic, so my efforts are probably in vain. =p

[FairFamily]

Well does a politician has to execute what the people want? It is an intersting question before you can make an argument. Voters are simply not smart or informed enough to make such decisions. I don't even think it is fair to expect it from them. However we should expect from politicians to be above that. They should guide the population to a better country for everyone. So the question is, will the (future) people of the USA be better off after Trump?  I don't think it is. If a politician can't even keep control of his staff, how is he going to keep control of his country? I also feel he is seperate from the other powers in the political world. He looks at a distance and the posts a tweet about it when it is over.  I'm no USA state citizen but that can't be healthy. Executive, legislative and judicial need to work together to get things done right. My friends had a nice name for him. He is a 'café' politician, the man that you see at a bar at friday night that says: 'if I were president, everything would be so much better' while knowing nothing of politics. Normally you don't take such guys serious but that was unfortunately a mistake. 

 

The mistake was not in believing he was going to be a bad president. It was in ignoring his loyal supporters. Just because Trump is a bad politician does not mean you have to ignore his voters however. His election is a clear indication that the American population wants something or there is an underlying issue at least. If I had to make a guess and we have to look at international politics for a moment. I think people lost their faifth in politics. It's something you see across the board and it is worrying. But back on track so now it is important now to learn from this mistake, clean house and earn back the trust of the people. Trump ain't going to do it. In fact I expect him to go to the trash can while sweeping.

 

So no I don't think that people have to support trump for the sake of unity. Or support Trump because he is elected.  Right now he is elected around 6~7 months which is 12.5% of the time period he has and the white house is still a mess. Now it is tilme to say 'enough is enough' and 'throw him out'.

[Zarc]

Unfortunatly you can't throw away a president who has been elected democratically , unless you remove him but we have to be honest : this will never happen.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Pμrple

[Eviora]

@FairFamily If voters aren't smart enough to make good choices then maybe we should reconsider how we make decisions. Democracy doesn't seem to be working out for us these days.

 

@Odybld It's sounds like you're basically happy with Trump because he hasn't yet gotten your country involved in a war. It's pretty easy to ignore his more dubious domestic decisions when they don't apply to you, I suppose. Unfortunately, there do exist people to whom they apply, and not all of us are so pleased.

[Jess]

26 minutes ago, Eviora said:

If voters aren't smart enough to make good choices then maybe we should reconsider how we make decisions. Democracy doesn't seem to be working out for us these days.

Sometimes (actually, most of the times, in modern era), all the available choices are bad. So you have to choose the smaller one of them. Or just, not vote at all, if nobody expresses your mindset.

[Odybld]

Ok, I accidentally posted it unfinished earlier, so, here's the whole thing

 

First, introductions. I'm a 25 year-old cis male from Greece. I am also a general supporter of the left, which in european terms means that both big american political parties belong to the right, as well as America itself. The most left-leaning voices, I'd say they belong to the center at least. Nobody, nobody crosses to the left.

 

I am very, very glad with the Trump regime so far. Even though the man himself is just about an accurate portrait of the Devil, a very-right-leaning hardcore enterpreneur that rode his money, lobbying and populist rhetoric to the position of the US President (in Greece we call that thing "πλανητάρχης" which means "ruler of the planet", to remind you what power the position holds). He hasn't done anything remotely disastrous. Compare with another President from the last decade, one who started two wars that sunk both afflicted regions (not even countries) to chaos and disaster. Also I like that the US voters managed to pass the flag of "we won't get the same ol' shit". So there's some potential to improve things in the next years if the people who want a better america pull it together

 

What's going on: in the world and the US

TLDR in the western world traditional parties shrink as frustration increases, and Trump's election is similar to what has happened outside the US too.

Spoiler

 

The western world asks for change. All over the less-fortunate and less-satelite-states in Europe, the results of elections for years have shown the same things: wins or gains for left-leanining political parties (until they fuck up), the fall of the traditional right, center and center-left parties, the rise of parties very small, or of politicians that were until recently not politicians, and a rise in the extreme right. There are many good reasons for this frustration. Some apply to the whole western world and some to the situation inside the EU. Some ways to react to this situation are, well, for me, pretty god damn motherfucking wrong, but I can understand what makes people be frustrated. 

 

On to the US, after two terms of a president once expected by supporters, enemies and the rest of the world to turn the country on its head, came the primary and then the presidential elections. Winner, a far-right-leaning populist who came from the world outside of politics, loser, a center-right career politicial straight from previous regimes. Surprizing? Not if you think that there's no left option in America to pick from and comparing it to the results of other situations with accumulated frustration and a demand for things to change. 

 

The focus of the democratic party in the last many years is not opposing itself to the economical liberalism that plagues the US, a minimally restricted free market with a state that has only recently managed to find ways to support its citizens. Congratulations, you've allowed to the Devil to claim that he can protect the american workers and create jobs. 

 

 

Fuck identity politics

TLDR there's a baseline of how good, or in this case bad, things are with life and especially working life in the US. An identity-based priviledge doesn't change that. Swift the focus on making every working person's life better and don't allow the party to be hijacked by identity politics preachers and corporate dummies that offer no change at the rest

Spoiler

 

The marquee focus of the democratic party nowadays is identity politics. It's a very noble goal, also very inefficient as the primary way to earn votes. Also the way that it's expressed in the western world and especially America, a very bad effect on thinking about other issues. The idea of priviledge by identity doesn't mean that those priviledged by identity are not prone to be fucked, hard, by other factors outside their identity. If "hard" means "less hard than the non-proviledged, but still hard", that's not a saving grace at all. 

 

And it is indeed fucked hard: the devaluation of study titles (the master is the new bachelor), humongous student loans, a job market with great uncertainty and not a good protection for the worker, blablablablabla... I think you get the point

 

A democratical party that would like to be respected by the left, rally the people behind it and win a damn election should be focused on listening to the reasons of frustration and the pleads for change that let to the rise of Trump. The goal and the banner should be first and foremost to improve the baseline for everyone, starting with the god damn economy, the job market, the workers' rights, and also the public services.

 

That's the worst part of the banner of identity politics: it allows to the party to put all these things in second place, and to allow people and lobbies that have absolutely no intention of improving that stuff to hijack the party. Welcome to having the best chance of improving lots of situations that influence your life be depended at people who are just not interested in losing that pretty penny. Corporate politics at its finest.

 

Throw these people into the river. Get involved, get a little more radical and don't accept any discounts. 

 

Let's go back to the candidate that the democratical party decided that should represent them. Hillary Clinton. An experienced representative of the corporate regime, with a big lack of an ideology, a goal, a vision to the benefit of you. What change in today's misery does she represent? None whatsoever.

 

 

How to beat Trump

TLDR: other than hopeless bigots, try to create a climate for discussion and debate, finding a common vision especially with the people that voted for Trump half-heartedly, with hopes of changing things

Spoiler

 

It's clear that Trump doesn't exactly fit into the "get the best for yourselves, no discounts allowed". However, he managed to fit himself enough, to claim he'd offer change, to get elected. So, the key is to first, offer palpable change, so much so that Trump can't pretend to be the one who does that. He answered to some frustrations of the general public, answer to frustrations yourselves more convincingly.

 

Let's face it: you can't win against the bigoted. Give it up, a hardcore racist will wil be a hardcore racist. That said, you need to accept that we don't live in an enlightened society. But go out there and try to debate with the less extreme, the more moderate Republicans, and don't just go out striking back, "you're a racist!", "you're a bigot!". "you're a basket of deplorables!". Try to debate with the asshole a little instead of just reinforcing their prejudication and shutting down any form of debate. Don't create a culture in which "this is undebateable, this is unacceptable!" becomes a norm because that will bite you in the ass and radicalize someone who's not fully commited to wholesome bigotry. 

 

Doing the opposite and putting people constantly on the defensive means that they will galvanize them. You won't see it at the polls, but come election day, people just let it fly. Many, many times the polls failed to be even somewhat close to the figure of right wing parties: people just lied to the polls because it seems unacceptable to vote that way, and so we got fuckups ranging from the rise or LePen many years ago to Trump unexpectedly winning... So don't galvanize them, ok? Try to debate and talk and understand the moderate ones

 

The one hill you need to die on is the one where they try to bend reality. I give it to you, you can't allow that kind of propaganda. 

 

Most importantly, listen to why the people voted for him. To the people disillusioned with the political system of the US, with the current situation of their lives, the people seeking change. Understand it and try to offer something positive and substancial for all, both yourselves and these people. Again, many people are not gonna be swayed either way, that's the way it is. But you can't wholesomely reject every conservative and/or Trump voter. These people too are people. They deserve a decent life and not punishment because they dared disagree with you. 

 

As does everyone tbh

 

 

 

Why do I post this here? Because the Donald Trump phenomenon is just too all-encompassing, and talking about a way to get rid of him is within ranting about him, or maybe better

 

 

People underestimate the ability of the US to function in pretty much the same way regardless of figurehead and smaller thingies happening or not. Who cares if Scaramoucci will do the fandango? I think that Trump just makes more empty noise as a president

 

 

[Eviora]

You know, I try not to be resentful toward people who got luckier than I did at birth. I tell myself that they chose to be born as they were no more than I did. But posts like that last one make it rather difficult.

 

From your perspective, I imagine it all seems quite simple. Work to make a better world for everyone! Have nice, positive conversations even with people you disagree with! It would be nice if things were that easy. You know, I would also prefer it if demographics didn't have to play such a large role in politics. Sadly, there are people who would rather keep them in, and I don't think many of them are the ones you think they are. The ones who single out certain groups are malicious people like Trump and Pence themselves. They thrive on hate, use it to blind their voters. It is they who act as if equality for all and good economic policies are mutually exclusive. Remember when the Supreme Court struck down laws banning same-sex marriage and so many lives were ruined? Neither do I; such things just don't affect people who are not involved.

 

Nonetheless, some politicians do target certain groups for inferior treatment. When that happens, what do you expect those of us who are members of such groups to do? Roll over and take it for the imagined "greater good"? That's easy for you to say because you are unaffected. Unfortunately, I and many others in similar situations will not accept such bigotry with a smile. If you vote to hurt us, don't expect to receive an understanding pat on the back.

 

That said, I would understand (though I would still resent it) if your candidate was actually likely to help you. But your candidate was Donald Trump. Did you ever think he would address the problem of student loans? Did you think he'd fight the rich on the behalf of the little guy? If you ever believed any of that, you were duping yourself. Trump filled his cabinet with the rich and dotes on Wall Street. He hasn't particularly done anything to improve the job market or reduce unemployment; those statistics have been moving in the right direction for years, and Trump just happens to be president while they continue to move that way. If anything, Trump is likely to make your problems worse in the name of the "free market." If he can, he'll cut key health programs for the sake of "winning".

 

That picture in the dog in a burning house saying "haha take that liberals" is all too accurate. Many Trump voters have just hurt themselves for the sake of spiting their perceived enemies. And if that isn't reason to be ashamed, I can't imagine what is.

[Alphagar]

6 hours ago, Pμrple said:

Unfortunatly you can't throw away a president who has been elected democratically , unless you remove him but we have to be honest : this will never happen.

Oh yes it will. The process for getting an actual impeachment is in the works. Not to mention with the fall voting coming up, we can make a difference. I certainly did not vote for the farce sitting in the oval office. Blegh.

[Zarc]

@Alphagar it's been mounths that medias always keep talking about a destitution and he's still here... No honestly , i think it's too late now :/ But let's see what will happen next we never know.

 

 

edit : the fact is , since he's here , it's total mess.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Pμrple

[FairFamily]

@Eviora It's not just inteligence. I mean even smart people can't do it since they might lack knowledge in certain disciplines. You also need resources. Most voters lack the resources to make a good decision. That's why parties exists with research divisions (well in my country they do). You might reconsider democracy but it has virtues on his own, people say dictature is a good idea if they can get a good/kind dictator. Good luck woth that.

 

@Pμrple There are ways to get rid of him. However these things have to be used very, very carefully. They can easily blow up in your face.

 

@Odybld I have to agree with Eviora on this. You are fooling yourself if Trump is ever going to solve any of the issues you mentioned.

[Odybld]

It's amazing to see the american political spectrum on work: "if he's not with me, he's against me! there are only two sides anyway, he's either one or the other, and since he's not on mine he's a Trump supporter!". You are amazing, hats off. What part of "your "left" is center-to-right-wing compared to the actual left", or "Donald Trump is the devil, a hardcore capitalist using his money, right-wing rhetoric and the frustration of people to rise to the position of most political power on the planet" does make you think you're talking to anything close to a Trump supporter? 

 

Anyway, other than being entrenched to the point of equating someone disagreeing with you to your actual opposition, you are also highly irresponsible. Hoisting Trump would offer 0 accountability for anyone involved. The democratic party would be absolved from losing an election to one of the most dangerous candidates ever, their failures of non-vision leaders who are just as close with the lobbies and corporations as their conservative counterparts would not be purged for their failures and complete obliviousness to what the US need and asked (tangible change), the blame would be shifted to Russia to a point that Senator Fucking McCarthy would be laughing in his grave ("My shit outlived the Soviet Union by how many years?") and the Trump supporters would never see the day where their vote would come back to haunt them and learn a bit about political responsibility themselves, while Trump would not go down as an example to evade in the future, but rather as a martyr in the eyes of many of his supporters. 

 

You could also put George Bush the Shittier and his cabinet on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity, but that's just too much to ask, right?