A Conservative Rants About Trump (Finally)

[Eviora]

Clearly you aren't a Trump supporter. However, you did say you were "very, very glad with the Trump regime so far." I was directing my point at more of an abstract "you" to speak of the potential motivations of a Trump supporter who cared about the things you were talking about.

 

I'm not entirely certain what your second paragraph meant. From my perspective, it looks as though you're letting a hypothetical scenario play out in your head and telling us about the results. I don't particularly have any response to that.

[FairFamily]

You say that say that there is a need of change. You believe there is a chance of change under Trump which you are happy about.

So unless you think that change for the sake of change is good. I mean shooting yourself in the right foot instead of the left is change.

You expect issues to get solved. The issues that you then bring up are issues that Trump would never change. So what do you expect from that change?

You're not mentioning it in your text.

 

Also your second pragraph is very hypothetical.

[Chase]

Mael, is the first time you've ever heard of Russia related to Trump?

 

Let me correct some timeline issues first - Russia was at war with Georgia in 2008 - which would lend any US involvement/input/whatever to Dubya, rather than Obama. However, the Ukraine situation happened after then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and the Obama Administration made agreements with the Russians regarding nuclear arsenals and lifted sanctions off of our Eastern "friends."

 

This was largely nullified by a plane being shot out of the sky and the United States viewing the Pro-Russia Ukraine crisis as an affront by Russia - causing more sanctions to be instated and the Obama administration's view of the Russians to quickly revert to arms-length allies-at-odds at best, with Republicans being a tad more hawkish.

 

Then, Russia had stopped providing adequate assistance to the US with regards to Syria.

 

This stuff was talked about when the mainstream media actually gave us the news. It's real history. That's where this comes from.

 

---

 

He still has support for a lot of reasons - and while most of these are unfortunate a couple of them hold merit.

 

• The media isn't seen as any more trustworthy then he is - and is in much WORSE standing with Trump voters. Good luck having Jake Tapper tell 'em facts.
• The country is so polarized, that compromise and agreement on both sides is seen as toxic. You're either with Trump or you're against him. The climate is black and white.
• Several Trump supporters are still in sore-winner mode, and people on the left still being as upset and unapproachable in defeat makes a large bridge to cross.
• Trump is a master of deferring guilt to people that are not himself or his family members - If they can't swim - they sink and Trump still floats.
• Trump doesn't care about the Republican Party - and therefore has created a faction that's just about himself.
• Several people are waiting for liberals to apologize for their personal affronts against conservatives with THEIR vote - and are using their support for Trump in revenge.
• Some people don't care about the other side of the country.
• Some people voted for Trump to keep the Supreme Court tilting to the right - a promise he delivered on.
• Some people voted for Trump to remove regulations on businesses - and he's delivered.
• Some people voted for Trump to strengthen immigration law enforcement to some degree - and to some degree he's delivered.

Why do people support him? Because merely making fun of the guy on SNL isn't going to convince them they need to move on. It looks like a bunch of spilled milk.

 

As long as people on the left continue to assume "our way -was- the correct way", throw out any opposing viewpoints as utterly worthless or continue to compare them unfavorably to their own, and treat the other side of the country with the same disdain they hold for the man they voted for - then how can you assume they are willing to move the fence on Trump?

[Eviora]

Really, most of the reasons in favor of still supporting Trump boil down to "Srcew Hillary, screw liberals, and screw the undesirables (immigrants, Muslims, LGBT people, etc)." The person I imagine might convince people not to support Trump anymore is - who else? - Trump. When people realize that Obamacare is the ACA and that Trump wants to strip them of the healthcare they're relying on, or when he causes some other great calamity of a magnitude befitting a man like himself, I'm hoping people will realize that maybe voting for him wasn't the best decision. Hoping. I have quite a track record of overestimating people.

 

Of course, when that time comes I imagine they'll just blame Obama and repeat their mistakes. This last year has only made me more negative, and I was pretty bad to begin with.

[Chase]

Probably so. I can assure you. That's not all of us on the right - and several Trumpers ARE coming around.

 

For one - People voted for Trump on healthcare because he wanted to "replace healthcare with something great." Americans want that something great - or they would rather keep the ACA.

 

Those areas are where we don't need a massive Trump failure to come together.

[Maelstrom]

5 hours ago, Chase said:

Mael, is the first time you've ever heard of Russia related to Trump?

 

No, in relation to claims that Democrats were planning to be buddy buddy with Russia, in which you said it seemed that we'd be okay if a Democrat had done it. This Russian Reset was it? Or did I misread it? it was like, 4am.

[Chase]

Yes - and that's what happened. That's what they called it. That -WAS- a thing.

 

It's also something that really only makes Trump's seeming desire to work with the Kremlin bad only because the Democrats are not the ones owning the restoration of relations - or because their candidate was the victim of Russian tampering.

 

At best - Russia is an everyday news cycle because the liberal media is crying over spilled milk. At worst - it's outright hypocrisy and seeming jealousy.

[Maelstrom]

Well it's just interesting that Russia has some kind of agenda in getting Trump elected when liberal democrats are the most open to socialist style programs and reform.

 

A weak or incompetent leader is easier to exploit or circumvent than one that is up to snuff. And Trump fits the bill nicely. It's almost awkward that the US and Trump has to put sanctions on Russia for meddling in the elections. Nevermind Trump's authoritarian tendencies. Like trying to shut down criticism by trying to shut out all criticism as fake news by lying (or giving 'alternative facts'), and recently starting up state sponsored propaganda titled "Real News". His administration doesn't like that journalists as poignant questions that they can't or don't answer so now they've created a platform and media outlet that lets them deliver their message without pesky questions by concerned people.

 

Edit: @Chase An alternative view of your worst/best case scenario.

 

At best- Russia news really is democrats hoping their asses off for an easy way to get rid of an obvious moron from office. Cuz let's face it, very few (if any) are taking the opportunity to take a leadership position and rally democrats, and the ones that have taken a stab at it are... well, they've failed miserably. Let's face it, EVERY candidate, both republican and democrat lost to this guy's showmanship and vague promises, and the hope that he actually had a plan to carry out things to their most desire conclusion. It still leaves us with the current Republican party defense- 'he's not a politician, he doesn't know how things work' aka, he's incompetent and has either taken too much of the wrong advice (such as the power he gave to Bannon and later revoked) or not listened to his advisors at all, most notably ignoring or not asking Rex Tillerson's advice in matters of foreign affairs and diplomacy.

 

At worst- the people selected scumbag who continues his trend of a lack of morals or consideration for other people to attain a political victory at any cost, such as trying to cover up acts of treason against our nation's method of democracy. Not that it's bad enough that all the people he knows or has nominated can be seen as part of the swamp he promised to drain.

 

Idk, everything points to his willingness to say anything to get support, and perhaps everything he can to weasel out previously undecided voters. 

 

Even to me, his measure to reduce visas in order to force domestic companies to hire domestically seems like a good idea. Except that the economics experts, including other republicans, predict that it will actually harm and stifle economic growth based on the math tracking workforce statistics.

 

It also seems to me that his tightening up of entry kind of makes it a requirement that immigrants will necessarily out-compete us citizens for their jobs. He's intending for a merit-based entry into the country. People who are already educated and know how to do their prospective jobs and have learned something about American systems. He's reducing the abundance of low skilled, minimally paid workers... in favor of letting higher educated workers come in and compete for higher skilled, higher paying jobs. As if all jobs aren't necessary.

 

Actually, can we ask Trump to deport American citizens who aren't working to their potential and are just leaching off the welfare system? (We already know that the welfare states are mostly republican) Cuz that falls in line with the Republican ideal of meritocracy. Those who choose not to work and milk the social system should not be rewarded. If they're poor or sick, well, it's the result of their own choices, and as a country, we shouldn't reward their behavior. The way I see it, Republicans, like democrats, vote the way they do because of their experience informing their ideals. They live in states and communities where they see people around them who perhaps do, by and by, exploit welfare systems. I've gone from thinking that perhaps Republicans aren't projecting themselves in place of the poor and finding that they would choose to exploit the system where possible, to thinking that they really do see their neighbors doing that when they could obviously get up and do some real work (which does not delve into the possibility of the obvious tensions and violent, racially dividing past which could have left them where their lineage currently stands). One would think they'd implement some kind of supervisory branch that constantly monitors and investigates such things, rather than taking away the social net from everyone, both the deserving and undeserving. Because it would be difficult to make it cut and dry, make it so easy to it as black white, to take into account all the factors. I would think that would be why Jesus gave the blanket command to forgive, and forgive as many times as it takes. If there was ever a man who saw the potential in mankind, it would be Jesus, wouldn't it? The man who allegedly suffered greatly at the hands of men at their lowest, men of power who only cared for their own comfort and leisure, and the power and influence that would keep them there. Flaws and failures of man that exist because the first two of mankind were expelled from a place of abundance for all. Because men, according to their curious nature (as given to them by god), performed an act of wrongness before they could even conceive of what wrongness really is.

 

You see, I rebel against your god because even if I were to find out he exists, I would believe him to be not divine (as defined by purity or perfection) but quite unjust (and not the perfect being that men have attempted to portray him as), though I'd consider his 'son' to be far more just. The one who was born a man, and thus experienced, truly, what it was to be a man. Not as some hypothetical idea from above, but one who could at last understand the man, the pressures and drives of one created by him. The bible proves god's fallibility, if not his divinity. If Jesus showed compassion and mercy, it was because the so-called divine being finally was able to experience what mortal men experienced, but still with the advantage of knowing right from wrong and living his life with knowledge and thinking far beyond all the circumstances of his 'birth'.

 

To pick a somewhat silly example, look at in from a weeb, isekai genre perspective. Oftentimes, the protagonists enters or is reborn into a world of a level of knowledge far below what he or she has known. With what they know from before, they are able to set the world onto a better course, as we see it from our perspective. It can hardly be helped, for a person of righteous mind. To set people straight and send them along the path that leads to truth (again, from our perspective- do you think you would give the same perspective and advice as southern soldier ripped out from his timeline in the American Civil War?). Could you choose to do any less, if inserted into ancient times, such as rome, greece, china, or mongolia? It's quite the parallel, to be inserted into times and situations that your moral compass and scope of knowledge would force you to perform acts and teach others things that would better their lives and spread happiness, yes?

 

I consider myself a student of power. One who has looked at and considered various ways of effecting change. From the drawbacks of democracy (many of which are clearly demonstrated by Trump) and the pitfalls of inherited leadership/dictatorship and applications of force and influence to effect change, both fleeting and lasting. How nations before have claimed divine mandate or used the physical demonstration of their prowess and collective focus as justification. How limited the reality is to guide or define growth or growth of knowledge, in regards to far reaching, or eternal goals. We've been warned away from progress for progress's sake by apocalyptic/disaster movies. We've been warned away from fanatic superstition/religion by the equal and opposite response by the survivors of said apocalypse. Limits and compromise are necessary for each end of the spectrum. There is no one, easy, lasting answer.

 

I've definitely digressed... but I have to say this as I haven't explained in previous posts with you that I responded to in anger and drink... well, such that I never could look into them again, much less respond to whatever replies I'm sure you had. It isn't within me to think Jesus would approve of the darwinistic views of conservatives (things theists are ready to denounce, but put into practice), after all he preached about forgiveness and asking you to stand in another's shoes or casting the first stone. Trump is literally that guy born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He would be the snob, the old testament god with no taste or measure of the reality for men on the ground. He is the typical aristocrat whose views are entirely limited by the lofty status he's held his whole life. It's quite clear to me that his entire life has trained him to achieve his goals, nevermind the cost, or the reality. Just as long as you can convince people... His whole job in his entire life has been to make people believe in the quality of a thing he was selling, whether it was of quality/worth or not. His privileged upbringing and the work of others has bought him the luxury he now enjoys. He may be president, but I can't recognize him as intelligent or deserving a position of leadership within our country, even by biblical standards.

 

Here's something I ran across and saved long ago because I thought it relevant to my decisions in life:

 

 

Where is your compassion? With some privileged sociopath?

Let us be pragmatic. Something worth doing is worth doing right. And doing something right comes with a cost. Third party payments and medical profiteering are leading us into this sinkhole that is the current healthcare system. Obamacare might not be great, but doesn't the intended republican revisions of healthcare point out even more the flaws with the insurance system? If anything, Obamacare was a compromise between the first party payment system you acknowledge liberals dream about and the incredibly unfair medical billing system that now exists.

 

 

[Zargerth]

Not exactly on topic, but no wonder the slogan "Make America great again" sounded so familiar:

 

 

[Maelstrom]

Just watch this video. It think kimmel is on your page when he describes why people voted for Trump.