idea Proactive-er protagonist?

[Akui]

Sup guys.

 

Lately I've been doing a little bit of thinking about our silent protagonist(s). Sure, we can't read them speaking their mind, but our actions speak louder than words on their behalf.

And yet... Over the course of the game, the characters is the object of attacks by quite a few ruthless trainers - and I mean not by being challenged to a trainer battle, but rather by being the target of a pokemon's attack, which hurt just as bad as they look, as some of them learn the hard way.

Spoiler

Poor Kiki, and later Ame :cry:

 

That had me thinking. I mean, pokemon can hit people, right?

WHY CAN'T THEY HIT BACK?

 

So, after a bit of cosideration (both game-balance and mechanics wise), and after scrapping a few ideas as unrealistic to implement (yes Titania, I am envious of you waving that Aegislash around ) I came up with this:

 

NEW BATTLE ITEMS

 

As most people know, the battle items pocket houses mostly vendor junk, with all those x-stats just not worth wasting a turn to be used. Sure, there's Dire Hit (and whomever never had fun with a super luck/scope lens/dh honchkrow should really try it), but it's just one item.

What I suggest are items that could be semi-reliably obtained in-universe and used in battles to take out some of our long pent-up frustration on the enemy personally. Or just plain ruin his day, as it may.

I divided the items I'd like to introduce into two groups: those which *should* not pose overwhelming problems to be implemented (basically being normal pokemon moves in item form), as well as those I don't really expect seeing in the game like... ever, since it would take quite a bit of work to get it done. Still, it's just an idea, so I'm posting those just the same.

Before I move on to the list, a disclaimer. Yes, I *know*, that these changes would shake up the game's balance quite a bit, essentially lowering the worth of having item-reproducable attacks on mons. It should be duly noted, however that a) potions don't make recovery moves obsolete, b ) none of the effects would be game-breaking in and of itself. Besides, I intended the items (assuming it would be possible in the first place) to take effect in the lowest possible priority tier, IE usually last before passive effects kick in. This would soften the impact of the items and (hopefully) allow them to carve a niche for themselves without crowding out attacks. And finally, their existence would finally make Embargo worthwhile.

So without further ado, let's get creative.

 

SIMPLE ITEMS

These would work by replicating a pokemon attack in battle once (as above, with reduced priority, if possible). That way, it would take no sprite creation, just playing around with existing animations and/or mechanics. Also, they wouldn't require any stats to use, aside from maybe accuracy.
From game point of view, they would be ways to utilise certain status effects without having access to pokemon to use them, at the cost of lowered priority, though with advantage of ignoring taunt.

TEMPLATE: Item name - attack it mimics (and a little comment, if needed)
PoisonPowder - Poison powder (duh)

SleepPowder - Sleep Powder

Taser - Thunder Wave

StrangeWhistle - Supersonic

(self-explanatory, basic status inducers)

Caltrops - Spikes

ThrowingNet - Sticky Web (can't think of a better name... any suggestions?)

(basic entry hazards, easy to avoid or disable, if you know what you're doing)

ShieldGenerator - Reflect

ShellGenerator - Light Screen

WardGenerator - Safeguard

FogPellet - Mist

(we've all been here, I believe - cool moves, useful, but how do I slap them onto my team?)

AirPurifier - Haze (ok, I admit - like no others, this item would screw over setup sweepers *royally*... but think of it this way - with reduced priority, you can launch at least one fully-boosted attack, right?)

 

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST

Bucket

 

The last entry needs a little comment. Everyone who won against Julia (which is like... everyone on this forum?) knows, how much of an advantage she gets from her electric terrain. Of course, it can be shut down... but it takes either taking a specific starter (namely Mudkip), or hoping that either on opal bridge or in north peridot you'll run into a zigzagoon (50-50 tops). Besides, she has like, a tiled floor there. Where the heck do the pokes come up with all that mud?

And then it dawned upon me, a quote I heard a long time ago. "Land is where you are safe. So... carry land with you"

Followed by the fell sounds of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRcj6CAhe7s (click if you dare).

So... yeah. Imagine this tune starting to play once you use your trusty bucket to splatter mud all across her pretty... shiny floor.

 

Anyways, the way that would work is like this: outside of battle, you can use it at certain locations (ponds, planters and sandboxes come to mind), to receive a WaterBucket, DirtBucket or a SandBucket, respectively, which could be used to replicate Water Sport, Mud Sport or Sand Attack, respectively.

Of course you could pick up other, more hazardous substances into it, but that's a matter for another post. Just as my ideas for more "creative" items.

 

 

So, whaddya think, forum?

 

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Akui
Added morality tag for the lulz.

[Alistair]

Wow... while this is a creative and interesting idea, I admit I don't really see our beloved protag tasing pokémons (even Meteor's) and throwing caltrops under their feet. That's just... brutal xD

 

Being able to use items that generate screens, change the field and so on sounds a bit too OP as well. It would considerably mess up the balance of the game, which is as of now pretty well done imo.

 

I'd like to use your topic to point something out. Violence is a very common thing in Reborn. Baddies resort to it, people on our side resort to it as well (Saphira and Titania being the most prominent examples, but Charlotte is also going down that road when she burns Sigmund with her cigarette). 

What if it were precisely our job, as well as good, well-meaning characters like Shelly, Laura, the twins' job to not resort to violence?

What if we were here to show the hopeless region of Reborn that no, violence and hatred don't have to triumph?

If we used the same brutality as the likes of Solaris and Lin, wouldn't that make us just as bad as them, only with different goals? 

 

So, I'm not so much against giving weapons to the player for balancing reasons, as I am because of moral reasons. I think it's worth pondering what the protag and their friends are aiming to achieve, what ideals they stand for. Using your pokémons to fight, because you have to, is one thing... actively using weapons against your foes is another.

That being said, some of your non-violent items deserve some consideration, for instance buckets and generators, although again... they would make some fights considerably easier, which isn't really what I'm looking to have in Reborn =p

[Zander]

So these battle items can be used in and outside battles? How would a light screen even work outside battle? And instead of say letting my Greninja hold a Taser to paralyze an opponent(human), I would rather simply ask it to cut my opponent or extrasensory them to pieces. That would be more practical outside battle. In battle though these are pretty good moves and would definitely compensate for the lack of good items in the game. 

In battle good but outside battle useless

[Zane0144]

I agree with Alistair above. But at the same time I would love to have some on hand items like sleeppowder. I'd never use them in a serious battle but it would be so helpful against things like wild pokemon.

 

It really reminds me of earthbound and final fantasy where some spells can be cast but there are items that do the same thing.

 

I mean, we already have the powder vial which is basically what you stated above just not usable in battle.

 

I would like to see it in future installments of the main series games

 

[Commander]

I...I...honestly am surprised by this reaction

 

In my 3 years of hanging around on the site...this has got to be one of my favorite ideas anyone has suggested. I just want to take a step back and say that I am just fathomed people are usuing morals as a reason to not include this hear. I'm absolutely fathomed that you say a system of having animals beat each other up until one gets a concussion should not allow the player to intervene some way. This protag of ours joined a criminal gang, stole a TV, and can even abuse their Pokemon for nature changes. Is it really going THAT far to use hazards on creatures designed to take a hit from hazardous materials. And a tazer is much, much less painful than a thunder wave so I would not be surprised if a trainer thanked you for using that instead. Like seriously, how can you justify morals here to outright reject an idea when Reborn is a corrupted world and system at the very beginning of the game.

 

Even if wanted to make it a bad thing, which actually would be more beneficial for a fan-game, you could have a blackmarket selling them in which you have to limit how you approach using them or don't abuse them. It being rare and valuable does make its importance to making it not as OP. But I'm just going to explain why this wouldn't break the game like you think it would.

 

These items are very useful and effective, but they would be consumed when used so you couldn't just spam them and even if you did, it would be no more broken than revive or potion spamming. Tank mons would be more encouraged to use in order to set them off with minimal casualties. Most tank and stall mons are thrown away due to the game pushing for more hyper offensive. And while it would be a free status move on a mon who normally not use them (you could even add a chance of fail), you could normally just use a mon who is capable of it. It's not as OP as it looks and worse comes to worse you could just not use it as with or without it, you still need to make use of your mons.

 

I do want to make a suggestion on how to use and change the bucket. Instead of affecting the opposing mon, it would create a temporary field effect similiar to electric terrain and such. Sand would create a desert, water a water surface, and so on. Would this break the game? Probably a little bit but you could only hold one bucket at a time to balance it out. It would help make use and play with the field effects instead of simply fighting against them most of the time.

 

Also, who's to say the opponents cannot do the same to you with a little bit of coding and magic.

 

As a modder and I sincerely mean this, I would look into making this thing real. Unfortunately, I have way more than enough on my plate so I will have to pass. It's a really cool and niche mechanic I think a lot of people would like to use and play around with. 

[Akui]

@Alistair Hell yes, it's brutal. That's the whole point of it all

You see, as they are now, our little protag has no choice *but* to play by the rules against people who have little regard for them. Introducing these would present the player with an interesting moral choice: is it fair to break the rules to achieve your goals. Indeed, I'd implicitly warn the player about that while giving access to the goodies.

On another note, as apalled as you seem by the idea, think about how other characters would react to your underhanded tactics. Your battles would be easier, but your contacts with the people that would become your friends... not so much.

And finally, using these in battle at first *would* make the game considerably easier, true. That said, people learn. If you use weapons to defeat them at first or witness you doing so beforehand, they might grab some for themselves the next time around. Or simply get some way to prevent you from doing so - like I said, Embargo shuts these down completely.

 

@Zander No, these would be used strictly in-battle. Maybe with an event or two going differently if you have something to defend yourself with, but that's it.

 

@Zane0144Final Fantasy was one of my bigger inspirations for this thread and I wanted to replicate the battle item system from there somewhat. They expand the repertoire of your team, though they're less effective at it than teaching the moves to characters themselves. Over there, however, using items isn't considered underhanded, since unlike in Pokemon there are no rules to how a battle should pan out set by the powers that be.

 

@Commander Indeed, I planned the sole vendor of these to be hanging around 7th street, to stress out that these are NOT legal in competitive battling and are pretty underhanded even outside them.

As for the chance to fail: as I noted, the use of the items would relfect using a move in its entirety. That means that Sleep Powder can miss, a Taser won't affect a ground-type, an Infiltrator Noivern or a simple Hyper Voice will ignore item-created Reflect EDIT: Light Screen etc.

And for terrain creation... no. Just... no. Mate, this is just a bucket. You're not hauling a full cistern of water to create a pool so that you can fight on water's surface. And cutting fire/electric damage in half as well as shutting down certain fields is in an of itself very powerful. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here  

Edited August 30, 2017 by Akui
(duh, both Noivern and Hyper Voice hit the special side, so they ignore Reflect anyway)

[Alistair]

@Commander Well... it's a matter of perspective I guess. Obviously I do agree with Reborn being a corrupted world and system, with the protag doing some very questionable things. However, what is the point of the whole story if Reborn remains a corrupted and violent world, with people assaulting and murdering each other because they pursue different goals?

Following the logic that nothing is off-limits because that's a cruel world we live in, we could justify absolutely any action from the protag and their friends. Even pulling out a gun and shooting down everyone with a Meteor logo on their shirt. However that wouldn't make for a very interesting game, would it?

 

In spite of all the grim things happening, Reborn is all about change, and making that place a new, better region. That's what in-game Ame tried to do, what Adrienn tried to do, even what Team Meteor (or at least some of its members) is trying to do. I don't find it too far-fetched to question how we want to create this better place. If you believe the end justify the means, then using the items in question is indeed a good idea. If not, then using them isn't a good idea.

 

These battle items could be implemented in the game, and I guess it would be up to everyone to decide what they want to use. Same goes for the nature changer, really. I personally find the idea that because the place we're in is violent and corrupted, justifies our own violence and corruption,mildly disturbing. But maybe that's just me.

On a side note, I would be very surprised to see anyone thanking you for using a taser on them, or someone they care about. Tasers do hurt in real life. Whether or not you consider them less or more painful than a Thunder Wave is open to interpretation, since nobody has ever experienced a Thunder Wave.

[Akui]

@Alistair You've hit the mark perfectly. You can use the items or not - nothing forces you to do it, and indeed, other characters would do their best to discourage you from using them. What I hope to achieve is to give players a choice. A choice between being a true hero, muscling through all the pitfalls the antagonists throw at them with heroic willpower and power of friendship alone - or a grizzled anti-hero, doing whatever it takes and risking becoming no better than the people they fight to save Reborn (click on the links to expand your POV a little bit ).

 

Errata: after a bit of consideration, i devised this little devil to add to the list:

IsolateGenerator - Embargo

The item to ban all items. And the go-to for anyone unwilling to see their pokemon tased/mud-covered/pierced by caltrops (ouch)

Edited August 30, 2017 by Akui

[Zander]

5 hours ago, Akui said:

No, these would be used strictly in-battle. Maybe with an event or two going differently if you have something to defend yourself with, but that's it.

Wait you're saying that there should be literally new items like instead of a light clay to boost reflect, just have something to cast it? Sorry I just understood it now. That being said, the battles would probably be too convenient if you can decide the timing and just too inconvenient if you can't. Here's an example which should clarify:-

 

In my reborn playthrough, I absolutely love tearing through pokemon teams with raw power. Due to this I have accumulated the highest power pokemon I could think of. But obviously the more powerful pokemon do not get enough speed but more times than not, their defense makes up for it, eg Granbull's amazing defense which allows it to tank a stab iron head or emboar's decent sp def.

The one trainer that gave me the most trouble was Taka. His Chatot was near perfect, outspeeding my main damage dishers like emboar or magnezone and instantly confusing them, then buffing itself up with nasty plot. The Pokemon which could outspeed like my Greninja couldn't do enough damage to ko and Taka simply healed while my Greninja went down in confusion. 

Do you see how broken this can be now? Imagine I have a Nidoking at more than half hp but it's holding a Taser. Now as it's last act for the team I have it use it at that time when it attacks. Nidoking almost dies but gets off a Taser and I use a less damaging move so that Taka wouldn't heal. Now that the Chatot is paralyzed, any member of my team outspeeds it! I could literally switch out into my Emboar use a stab, reckless flare blitz and turn it into fried bird while it struggles with paralysis! The one thing that could potentially ruin my team simply nulified.

How is that not broken?!

 

And what if you can't use it at will you ask? What if it's only first turn when the Pokemon is out or something? 

Then what the hell is the point!? Why would I give a Taser to my Emboar so that the next move is a guarantee outspeed rather than simply give it a choice band so there won't even be a next move?

And who is to say that I won't save a Pokemon at full hp and never send it out unless Taka's Chatot comes onto the field? Again way too easy to nulify threats instantly. If the game had to be made easier then Amy would have simply provided us items at the second gym like leftovers and life orb. Not make them super hard quests to get to. I think it would still ruin the balance of the game.

 

Think about these points. It's either just too broken or simply just too useless.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Zander

[Chase]

Let me just say that this is a super neat premise, as Reborn's protagonists are confirmed to be at an age old enough to make hard choices in order to survive and that Reborn's environment is exceptionally gray morality-wise.

 

Where this falls through however, is that the victims of our protagonists' retaliation happen to be the opposing Pokémon we run into - not the trainers calling the shots.

 

---

 

Now, perhaps I've read too far into this - and I do that often - but it seems like your inspiration for making these items was to be able to respond to the aggressions caused against the player (I.e. Garchomp trying to assassinate you while you are distracted at the Blacksteam Factory surveying PULSE Muk.) - but Garchomp wouldn't have tried to kill the player if Solaris didn't order him to in the example I gave. The Pokémon could just be released and would no longer have to live a life of high crime and deal with the stresses that it entails.

 

As Pokémon Reborn is inspired by the original games in the content that it uses, it's hard not to apply the lesson that is stressed in the main series games to Reborn - that Pokémon are our friends before anything else. Perhaps, this is what you assume Solaris and Garchomp and Lin and Hydreigon actually are. Friends. We can probably safely assume Saphira and Dragonite are partners, so having Dragonite murder a bunch of Meteors seems like something Dragonite was WILLING to do, as partners tend to share pursuits.

 

Evil organizations have a tendency however, in the main series, to use Pokémon more as tools for reaching their goals. Is it safe to posit the assertion that Lin and Solaris do this with their Pokémon? If -THIS- is the case, then having the protagonist directly attack these Pokémon leaves us barking up the wrong tree. The Pokémon are simply taking orders from people who they feel they need to listen to in order to survive. As Pokémon Trainers, exacting our revenge on Pokémon would be rather unprecedented.

 

---

 

I am ABSOLUTELY all for the ability for the protagonist to make hard moral choices that impact the story, and having the ability to return the favor to the likes of Solaris REALLY SHOULD be a compelling choice.

 

I just picture the scene as the player having defeated the man, with their starter Pokémon ending Solaris' life - or not - based on the player's decision. If we're going to become the Pokémon world's mercenaries, we at least need to take care of the actual target, and not waste time making life miserable for our enemies' Pokémon - who may not be all for what their trainers are putting them through at all.

[Akui]

@Zander Allow me to clarify. The items would be used by selecting them from the in-battle ITEMS menu, like potions or x-attack.

With that in mind, the situation you described looks as follows: your team's getting steamrolled by that dastardly Chatot, so you decide to take matters in your own hands, pull out a taser and paralyze the chatot. Since it's YOU who's attacking, not your pokemon, confusion is not an issue. The next turn your Nidoking attacks and easily outspeeds it.

But then, of course, Taka berates you for playing dirty after the match, so you start wondering if it was worth it. That's the point

 

@Chase I see your point, but consider this: my idea is not about allowing you to attack your foes directly. Despite going at each other at full force, pokemon are sturdy enough to take a beating from each other and survive. That is far less true for humans, as Kiki found out the hard way.
What I mean is: I intended to give the player an option to fight dirty and ruthlessly. Attacking foes directly carries the risk of killing them (accidentally or not), leading to murder. I think that is and should remain off-limits.

[Zander]

17 minutes ago, Akui said:

Allow me to clarify. The items would be used by selecting them from the in-battle ITEMS menu, like potions or x-attack.

With that in mind, the situation you described looks as follows: your team's getting steamrolled by that dastardly Chatot, so you decide to take matters in your own hands, pull out a taser and paralyze the chatot. Since it's YOU who's attacking, not your pokemon, confusion is not an issue. The next turn your Nidoking attacks and easily outspeeds it.

But then, of course, Taka berates you for playing dirty after the match, so you start wondering if it was worth it. That's the point 

Ah okay, I see now. So it's basically an option to get through battles easily but at the expense of your mortality. You can guilt trip yourself forever or just say that it is necessary.

But then that raises the question that if it is just necessary then what's stopping the player from taking a gun and shooting the opponent? If you're going to give weapons to a person to assist in Pokemon battle because it is necessary or just helps more, then ending the threat is more easier than going through the pain of battling at all right? 

And if team meteor could bomb the train station and other stuff then they would simply start shooting the first chance they get.

I would think that the player's pokemon are capable of deflecting a gun shot which is why nobody has tried using it yet, because it would just be a waste of time. And if that is the case then something like a Taser would do nothing at all to the opposition.

The point is probably supposed to be that pokemon are stronger than humans or any weapons that they make but are also simple wild animals which humans tame into killing machines in the name of survival. Which is why nobody bothers with stuff like C4 because a protect from a wingull could probably nulify the explosion and also because an electrode exploding would cause more damage.

 

That's my view though, so I hope you don't take it badly. 😃

Edited August 30, 2017 by Zander

[Chase]

By saying you had to make moral choices that involve killing or not killing certain characters - I was in no way trying to state that players should have the option to murder off as much of the cast as they please. These would have to be scripted events in certain parts of the story that effect things like relationship points, story arcs, and the like that isn't something TOTALLY abused by the player. It wouldn't be available for things like normie trainers, League opponents, and even most common Meteor grunts. The option would be limited to main antagonists, and deciding whether to kill or spare comes with unnamed risks (more characters on your side being killed by an upcoming story event, missing out on Pokémon or items, having no help in solving a difficult upcoming puzzle.)

 

---

 

This is the other problem I see with your item idea. You could potentially also aggressively fight League opponents - your allies in the story - with these same underhanded tactics. And while it's simple enough to have an error message say "You can't cheat!" or something - the difficulty probably comes in coding which trainers you can and can't use these items on. If you win a battle against Charlotte by cheating, she might also be able to outright deny you your badge, making you fight her again. I see item-based shenanigans as potentially abused - and coupled with the fact that the Pokémon involved in any of these scenarios are not our enemies first and foremost, this doesn't seem like a great way at being the chaotic protagonist.

[Akui]

@Zander It's exactly as you said. For one thing, a trainer's first priority would be his own safety, so he'd likely have the pokemon take the shot for him. For another, pokemon attacks ARE and WILL BE more powerful than anything a human can muster.

The point of these items would not be to avoid a battle altogether or to win it outright. A Taser that could knock a person out cold would just slow down a pokemon (as reflected by the paralysis status). If you read the description for Thunder Wave, you'll notice that it's the weakest jolt a pokemon can muster in a battle. And I gauge it on the same level as a taser, a weapon that's potentially (if not intentionally) lethal. Instead, the items would offer disruption in order to make a battle easier.

 

@Chase I actually included one such underhanded tactic in the very first post: to use a DirtBucket to disable Julia's Electric Terrain. She certainly wouldn't be happy about it, but technically it would *not* be cheating, like ordering your zigzagoon to use Mud Sport and doing the same. It would be using your environment, not unlike her building a special terrain into her gym to give her the advantage. So... yeah. You COULD use them, even in league battles and I don't think this should defeat the purpose of the battle itself. It would be in other aspects (like opponents learning from that and using these themselves) that the cost would be paid later.

As for making the choice of disposing of major villains... Allow me to say this. My idea was supposed to give the character a choice: be pure good (as you currently are)... or be a bit of a scoundrel, if a good-intentioned one. Lawful good vs chaotic good, if you prefer. The option to KILL an opponent (no matter his crimes) pushes the choice bit too far in the good-evil axis for my taste.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Akui
More thoughts on Chase's point.

[Busti]

I would say to add an item:

 

- a matchbox

 

Light up that field!

[Chase]

Touche, although Julia seems to rely more on normal type moves such as SonicBoom and Self-Destruct than she does boosted electric type moves. However, the difference is that a Pokémon is the one causing the effect, and if you really wanted to use Mud-Sport, said Zigzagoon is certainly available for one to do that with already.

 

The Gym Leaders already don't seem to try too hard at fixing their fields after they have been changed- and it's not a part of their strategy to waste turns trying to set their effects the way they want. The player ACTIVELY doing so - in the stead of their Pokémon - seems like something that you shouldn't be able to do - as a trainer - in the heat of battle. Yeah, the Field Effects often benefit the Leader, but they are already fallible without having to be underhanded.

 

---

 

Again - I think the moral ambiguity angle is fantastic - but it needs to be focused. At the end of the day, the player character travels to Reborn to go on a Pokémon journey, and while they certainly can commit petty crimes and witness their allies doing some pretty crazy stuff, there isn't a need for the silent protagonist to make power moves against Pokémon (and apparently trainers) that don't have any business getting undercut in that way.

 

Now, Team Meteor, the orderlies at the orphanage, and the cultists from Subseven? Those people are genuine threats, and the player should focus their energy in dealing with them in whatever way they feel is necessary.

[Akui]

@Busti Ever tried lighting even a small campfire with just a box of matches? If not, let me tell you: it's far easier said than done in the best conditions. Now try it while there are two deadly beasts duking it out nearby. Not that I'd be against doing so, mind you, though with more "flashy" implements.

 

@Chase Like I said earlier, the choice of whether to play dirty or not would be up to the player alone. One could abstain from it entirely, one would only use them against pokes of people who have it coming, and another could just go full cheater on the league, Meteors and everyone in between. That's the beauty of it: it's utterly unnecessary to win battles (assuming you play your cards right). Just something you can do if you're feeling spiteful or the game's proven too frustrating to play by the rules.

[Commander]

8 hours ago, Chase said:

This is the other problem I see with your item idea. You could potentially also aggressively fight League opponents - your allies in the story - with these same underhanded tactics. And while it's simple enough to have an error message say "You can't cheat!" or something - the difficulty probably comes in coding which trainers you can and can't use these items on. If you win a battle against Charlotte by cheating, she might also be able to outright deny you your badge, making you fight her again. I see item-based shenanigans as potentially abused - and coupled with the fact that the Pokémon involved in any of these scenarios are not our enemies first and foremost, this doesn't seem like a great way at being the chaotic protagonist.

 

On a scripter's point of view, there's actually 5 ways you could go about it ranging from it being automatic to basically setting it up when you can't use it on specific instances. Putting restrictions on it is about a week's worth of work tops. You could even add in a check mid battle in which a character responds to you using an underhanded tactic such as for Shelly "Umm...I'll give you the badge but...please don't use those things on my Pokemon. I don't think it's good for them." It's time consuming work but certainly possible.

 

I'm actually going to use a bit of wrestling to describe why it could be allowed in an official match to a degree. I'm not a big fan of WWE but sometimes one of the wrestlers does something certainly against the rules by jumping out of the ring and grabbing a chair to wack it over someone's head or sometimes having their partner jump in and help them. Staged or not, I don't think the opponent is too thrilled at the handicap they got or are using. That brings it back to these items (which is a stable to many RPGs btw) where you use stuff that your opponent does not have access to gain an advantage. It could be considered legal but greatly frowned upon, but I could see why it would be very morally wrong or...it could be seen as something like this:

 

Spoiler

(I'm now imagining this happening when facing Kiki)

 

10 hours ago, Chase said:

I am ABSOLUTELY all for the ability for the protagonist to make hard moral choices that impact the story, and having the ability to return the favor to the likes of Solaris REALLY SHOULD be a compelling choice.

 

Moral choices in a video game are probably the moments where it feels all too real. There are times where you have to kill someone you don't want to (like in Chrono Cross) ones where a simple choice could lead to someone's death down the line, but my favorite have to be choosing to kill or not to kill an opponent. I remember a certain game I played that they built up a character so well that when I chose to do what she wanted...it felt so hallow and just...stabbed me in the heart. There are times where an ending just is not worth it and that was one of them. Most story choices have small consequences and actions but a little goes a long way.

 

Pokemon is not like most RPGs unfortunately. Titania is the golden highlight as to why we cannot have something like this. Most of the time in Pokemon, even in Reborn, you are always safe and there is no threat of dying. Even in the times it can happen the event just resets so that you may win it. So everything is rather relaxed other than forced death scenes. What does this have to do with Titania? She's one of the most hated characters for doing something that people considered wrong. Killing grunts who were trying to help or following orders. She, Saphira, and Amethyst known that Meteor is not to be trusted and are willing to kill to put an end to protect the civilians of Reborn. Titania's are a bit offputting due the feeling she's killing purely out of stress and hatred. And to wrap this all up:

 

If given the option to kill Solaris, would you do it? If you answered no, you just got yourself killed. Good job! I don't think a lot of Pokemon players would enjoy a realistic choice like that as first, they have it in their brain that killing is bad. The other reason is that I don't feel that people want to see or view themselves as being like Titania. I would love to see a morality system, but I think it'd be off-putting for Pokemon games especially due to the style. Killing someone is a bit more than a simply throwing sand at their pets eyes. I would like to see choices make a much bigger impact than Reborn's simply altered scenes. Baby steps.

[Chase]

Commander - you see where I'm coming from - or at least where from the opposite side.

 

In every Pokémon game, the player can use any strategy they want to take on their league challenge because nothing is really seen as "cheating" (and as we've grown up, there's been less and less of a need to because the game feels more and more easy.) The characters we defeat along the way tend to be in awe of our skill. NPC's begin to lean on us because of it, and there's just always a certain respect we earn from the characters in the story.

 

Reborn isn't so different, even if there are very clearly characters that warm up to us slowly (Titania) or not at all (Fern). As the player goes on a tear through the league, you start catching compliments like you would in your travels in main game regions. A Hotshot calls you skilled, a badge after another Hotshot disses you and doesn't let you use the Opal Bridge. Charlotte calls you "a wrecking ball." - despite being better than you at the time. Saphira, who is more than capable of doing things herself, is not afraid of entrusting you with precious objects. The player follows the same cycle. They climb up the ladder, and they earn respect. The only difference between Reborn and Alola or something is really that nobody gives it to you when you get off your train (in an especially unceremonious manner.) Honestly, In-game Ame is like the only "significant" exception to this, as she doesn't seem to hold the player in any particular regard like the likes of Prof. Sycamore or Kukui do. She just hands you a 'mon and sends you on your way, encountering you a few times as you need information from her or her to contact replacement leaders, and even in her final hour she understates that she's the Champion of Reborn and that it was a necessary holding of the title. Her praise (and maybe even her hope) for you as the player character is conveyed by her Fairy gym leader post mortem. It's probably the most striking non acknowledgement by any character "on your team" in the game.

 

The protagonist is said to "glow" by a certain little girl with a Jirachi doll who claims to see a lot of things others don't. Perhaps the "canon" for Vero, Alice, Kuro, Lucia, Deci, or Ari is that they - solely - are the heart transplant Reborn desperately needs. As much as the player does some silly things and as much as the player's allies toe the line between good and chaotic, there is the feeling that, from the "hero" perspective, that's the ONLY option.

 

Imagine trying to hold that narrative while pulling some shady stuff like Caltrops and running up to a Pokémon and tazing it. There's definitely story elements that make an anti-hero protagonist idea seem intriguing, and there are times where a challenge in the League would be made easier if we could make like Solaris and pull some crazy stunt. However, the narrative has plans for the character - even if it's the same old putting a silent protagonist on a pedestal.

 

It's probably because - the major pursuit of a Pokémon game seems to be becoming some sort of champion. Go figure.

 

 

 

 

[Akui]

Wow. I've gotta say, I didn't expect the topic on a simple new mechanic to evolve into a discussion on the moral reasons behind the protagonist  

Allow me to throw in a thought or two of my own.

 

First, I must say I disagree with @Chase. True, as they are right now, the protagonist ends up a monolith in people's eyes - and I do NOT want to change that. Still, I believe that if the character would end up becoming that way regardless of the way they deliver. Take Mass Effect for example. You can play Shepard as a Paragon (true hero personified), embodying the qualities you mentioned above... or you can play Renegade, screwing people over left, right and center - and yet save the galaxy none the less. 

 

Here's the deal: while a true hero inspires good by being something most people are not and therefore showing that there is another way, an anti-hero can do the same by showing that even they - imperfect as they are - can make a difference. At first they would just regard you as just another scoundrel, the likes of which Reborn sees by the dozen. But then you start showing results, thwarting Meteors and saving people despite being an apparent bastard. The first reaction of the public is sure to be apprehensive, but the further down the line you go, the more they start appreciating what you do. In the end, you'd be the one they're afraid to be: the person to do what it takes for common good.

In the end, while a "heroic" hero would be met with gratitude, he'd also stand for people doing nothing and letting themselves be saved. An anti-hero, on the other hand, would emphasize taking things in your own hands and fighting for what is right with what you have.

In game terms, this would mean that people would warm up to you far slower than they would otherwise and they surely would regard you differently in the endgame. Instead of people thanking you, you'd get them being glad with themselves having achieved it and with upstarts wanting to follow in your footsteps to make a world a better place and asking you to test them. Would that be bad? I don't think so.

 

With that in mind, I wouldn't consider including a choice of killing someone at all. Regardless of whether they are a hero or a scoundrel (or anything in between), the protagonist shuold inspire. Murdering someone (regardless of the reason) is never inspirational. Sure, it might be necessary, but if anything, I'd rather show the character doing whatever it takes to avoid having to make that choice in the first place. Even if they have to get their hands dirty in the process.

[Chase]

From an "ending" perspective, we have yet to see what the possibilities are - but it's been divulged that the players choices and actions at the very least affect their relationship at the end of the road with other characters in what is known as "the relationship point system." IceCreamSandWitch has a pretty good detailed thread about it somewhere around here.

 

Spoiler

To briefly surmise, the player's choices and actions cause them to "earn" hidden point values - and lose them - with specific individuals. An example of this is choosing to participate in the punishment tournament after Meteor imprisons your entire Devon attack squad. Individuals such as Victoria (a fighting spirit who wants action, particularly after Kiki is murdered.) and DJ Arclight (the DJ you see wanting to act to free imprisoned Pokémon in 7th Street.) will award you 2 points or so for choosing to fight, but at the cost of losing 2 points with Adrienn (Ever the pacifist.) - Conversely, if you hesitate/actually refuse to fight Victoria and Arclight you gain 2 points with Adrienn at the expense of losing 2 points with Victoria and Arclight.

 

What this means for the endgame regarding the player is unknown, but the player's actions shape the endings for the rest of the cast at the very least -without- adding a Renegade mode. It also means that the players actions -already- are quite tangible. These endings have been speculated to have the highest point valued character interact with the player in a special way (a waifu system) to having characters with low scores suffer bad endings and makes for loads of replayability if only to find out what the deal is with all of these endings.

 

There - as I'm sure has already been pointed out - is also personal decisions to be made that make the story compelling, such as giving the Ruby Ring to Blake, or finding all of the police officers before you find Corey in order to have him exposed as the Meteor Agent you encountered in the overgrown Beryl Ward. Some of these decisions cause split routes, such as choosing to fight Dr. Connal or Sirius at the Yureyu building causes different allies to be kidnapped by the Meteors at the Belrose mansion.

 

---

 

Finally @Akui, I don't think people would have any disagreements with how an anti-hero can also be inspirational - but I don't think your League members are going to reward someone who doesn't conduct themselves in a monolithic manner. Shepherd has ALWAYS been adaptable and flexible in their game. You could go renegade much faster in ME than you can in Reborn, where 15 minutes in you're storming a Meteor building and playing hero. Pokémon has a notoriously linear design for an RPG. It's the nature of the beast.

 

I find the player acting like a scoundrel problematic with the overacting theme of Pokémon. The point of a League challenge is to adhere to the established rules (unless you're Lance...then you can teach Dragonite Barrier and evolve it earlier than you should be able to..) The Reborn protagonist doesn't embark on a journey to save any world at all at the start. They find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time, with many of the wrong people, and in order to successfully chart a path to glory that they set out for, they have to do so by interacting with a very dependent cast of characters that have different strengths and weaknesses and by helping said cast with whatever needs doing. Once x task is done, the player's REWARD is an official League match.

 

Given the way things happen in Reborn, having someone fight you in order to help your own personal journey is a blessing. When you get a gift, you respond in kind. If you don't - it's a little confusing how you can expect the ends to justify the means here.

 

Here's the interesting truth bomb though. It's very likely that even though Adrienn recently fired up the player worship train again - that the real "protagonist" of the game is the group of allies you are helping try to restore and bring their home peace. This is something akin to what the main series did - where there's a stronger argument for Lillie being the game's protagonist than the player in Sun and Moon. If you act like a punk, I disagree that upstarts would want your advice. They -might- want your title as Champion (which doesn't seem rightfully earned if your doing it by abusing the Pokémon on the other side of the field personally.) - but their heroes will be your friends, the people you screwed over on your way to the top.

[FairFamily]

Well I'm not sure on this mechanic in itself. The thing I get from this mechanic is that they are ingame items which replicate movess and that they can't be used in the overworld. Now to be fair, they most likely can't be used in official gym matches because let's be real if they were to be used once, (In game) Ame would be informed. Ame would then crack down with new rules. Even then I wouldn't really be sold on this mechanic. The reason for this is not story/morality driven but rather this. The items directly empower the player in battle. One of the big complaints is that the players have little control in the overworld. You can't stop Garchomp, you can't stop your ruby ring getting stolen (twice), you can't apprehend villains, you can't move grunts/people, you can't destroy some small gate, ... . This is compeltely in contrast with battle where the player has full control. Now these items directly empower the player more, they have actions that affect pokemon but they can't use it outside battle. This widens the difference between overworld and battle even more. "Basically I can tase a tyranitar but not Fern/Taka/Grunt...?" "Or a use shield generator to protect Kiki?" So much options which can't be used.

[Swampellow]

Honestly the only part of the original post that i disagree with is that X items are useless and not worth anything but money at vendors, they can be pretty useful for certain fights.

Other than that, the ideas are cool, although I don't know if there would need to be *that* many different items and maybe some better names but thats a minor thing.

[Akui]

Ah Lance, the unfulfilled dream from my GSC days. I've got to tell you, @Chase, if it were at all possible, I'd do whatever to enable playing someone like that. Also note that he WAS a gym leader in Johto league - far more orthodox than Reborn's when it comes to rules. If I were to point out a precedent for a scoundrel-ish protagonist, I'd look no further. 

Funny you'd mention Mosswater Factory, by the way. Indeed, that would be the first time you'd have the opportunity to go sideways. Perhaps not by battle items (like I said, those would first become reliably available around 7th street), but perhaps by setting traps for grunts you'd face? Indeed, I've always had more of a problem facing Aster and Eclipse than Julia and I'd love to give them a handicap if at all possible.

As for the reason the characters do what they do, I see no conflict there. The character's motivations aren't explicitly stated, aside from the fact that they intend to take on the League. The protagonist could be in it for the glory (like any other pokemon protagonist), or perhaps to get stronger, or just to sate their own ego. I could easily associate the latter with taking victory whatever the cost. Also note that after Grandview the thing between the protagonist and Meteor could very well be called personal. He could be taking on the league simply to make a bigger target of himself in order to lure them out.

Also remember one thing: I stressed out that playing dirty would be entirely a matter of preference. You could abstain from doing so in league matches, be it for fairness' sake or out of personal respect for the people you're facing. Besides, for the most part the gym leaders are already in your debt. I believe that they'd let the character get away with much more than having an ace in the hole when facing them.

And finally, your point to treat the whole posse as the protagonist is entirely valid. In fact, this would make going renegade easier to get away with - you wouldn't be considered the most representative of the lot and you would likely hear some of your exploits attributed to others, but you'd be something of an ensemble darkhorse or even a token evil teammate - not the one in the limelight, but the one who gets the job done. Let's face it - if you've chosen to play dirty, you weren't doing it for glory anyway. And i did *not* suggest anyone would be taking advice from you - they'd want you to test them. The train of thought being "if I am able to face someone who plays dirty, I'll have no problems facing the honest ones".

 

@FairFamily touched an interesting case. I've mentioned a few posts earlier that certain events *could* go another way if you were properly prepared (or paranoid, as it were). Perhaps you wouldn't need Amaria to save you in Mosswater if you could protect yourself with an item. Or you'd protect her instead, considering Solaris admittedly caught you by surprise earlier. You probably wouldn't be able to save Kiki anyway, however - the items I posted can't really fully block an attack, just soften it, and Garchomp is ground-typed, so tasing it is out of the question.

Why not use these to avoid battles? The answer is threefold. For one thing, the items that could reasonably do so (the taser and the sleep powder) could be potentially dangerous to humans - and I while I can fathom the character being a bit ruthless, he's no killer. For another, the character is a pokemon trainer first and foremost. I think it comes with the profession to try and solve everything with battling - even if they would be a bit unorthodox at it. The final reason is a bit meta - pokemon develop by battling, as approximated by EXP. Avoiding battle means giving up on that as well - and that's something both the player and the character isn't likely to do.

As for Ame cracking down on the protagonist: the only reason for her to do so would be if they would cheat in gym battles and get reported. Some leaders wouldn't, because they're in debt with the character one way or another. Shade's not the talkative type. The rest are pretty far from Reborn and have much more pressing concerns than someone playing dirty in battles against them. Note as well that while not nice, using these technically would be using your environment, not unlike leaders setting up fields in their gyms to their advantage - not something you could rule out as cheating. She could get at the player indirectly, however: refusing to give tips before gym leaders or warning them about your dirty ways. Finally remember, there's an easy way to cut cheating attempts short: Embargo/IsolateGenerator.

 

11 hours ago, Swampellow said:

Other than that, the ideas are cool, although I don't know if there would need to be *that* many different items and maybe some better names but thats a minor thing.

Yeah, the names. I admit, that is my weakest suit. If someone would come up with better ones, I'd really appreciate it

Edited September 1, 2017 by Akui

[FairFamily]

1 hour ago, Akui said:

 

@FairFamily touched an interesting case. I've mentioned a few posts earlier that certain events *could* go another way if you were properly prepared (or paranoid, as it were). Perhaps you wouldn't need Amaria to save you in Mosswater if you could protect yourself with an item. Or you'd protect her instead, considering Solaris admittedly caught you by surprise earlier. You probably wouldn't be able to save Kiki anyway, however - the items I posted can't really fully block an attack, just soften it, and Garchomp is ground-typed, so tasing it is out of the question.

The reason you need saving is because you werd caught by surprise otherwhise you could use your pkmn and that's basically every issue.  So if you could use an item you can use a pkmn. So basically plot stops you from interfering so you can't close the gap between overworld and battle even for a little bit after you widened with a bunch of items. Also I tase Solaris not Garchomp, I just throw some sleep powder on Garchomp/Solaris or confuse them with the wistle. 

 

1 hour ago, Akui said:

As for Ame cracking down on the protagonist: the only reason for her to do so would be if they would cheat in gym battles and get reported. Some leaders wouldn't, because they're in debt with the character one way or another. Shade's not the talkative type. The rest are pretty far from Reborn and have much more pressing concerns than someone playing dirty in battles against them. Note as well that while not nice, using these technically would be using your environment, not unlike leaders setting up fields in their gyms to their advantage - not something you could rule out as cheating. She could get at the player indirectly, however: refusing to give tips before gym leaders or warning them about your dirty ways. Finally remember, there's an easy way to cut cheating attempts short: Embargo/IsolateGenerator.

Throwing sleep powder at an opponent or tasing them is not using your environment at all.

 

Distance is not a problem since every gym has a intercom to Ame. Some people might go talk to Ame about it: Shade might, Florinia would, Julia might blab it to Florinia, the agata circus/ring master/audiencce would (imagine using those items in the cricus: show ruined and exposed on the news), G.G. would blab it to the world, ... . That is all assuming you are the first to use it against a gym leader. Also fields are registered by Ame since Ame can speak about them in the intercom so it's not cheating, it's giving them an edge to compensate for their monotyping. Either way the fields are officially part of the leaugue.