Evil team concept

[ssbCasper]

Hola, back again with some more frequent posting. This time we'll be talking about the concept I've been playing with for my game's evil team.

 

So to give the tldr they are the loyalist of a tyrannical king who was recently overthrown, their main goal is to take down the new governing council and bring the king's son to power as the rightful heir and they are known as Team Royal. The basis of the idea is that they are ranked like pieces on a chess board (Pawn, Rook, Bishop, Knight) and each rank uses a different theme of Pokemon which you guys can try to figure out based on the info given. The admins are the former elite 4 of the region who were stripped of their roles and Pokemon for keeping allegiance to the king during the war. They are known as the 4 aces and are represented by a suit, spades, clubs, diamonds and hearts. No one knows who the team leader is only that the code name given to them is Queen. The "rightful" heir is the King in the chess analogy. 

 

Note: Its probably important for me to mention that this team is suppose to make you (The player) question right from wrong and ultimately decide which side you think rightfully should rule the region. (Or that you should do it yourself). Anyways I'd like to know what people think of the concept, I think its pretty cool and unique. Originally I was going to have multiple factions but Insurgence is already famous for that plus I found a different way to incoperate that idea in the form of guilds. 

Edited September 30, 2017 by ssbCasper

[Filthy Casual]

Sounds like an interesting concept! I only remember a bit about royalty in fan games I've played (Zeta/Omicron/Insurgence), but in those, they were only alluded to rather than play a main role in the story. To see this play a role is extremely encouraging!

[Combat]

What I like about this evil team:

-The chess/card based themes

-The potential for the villains to be in the right

What I'm not so sure about:

-The name "Royal" feels a little cheesy (Though Skull isn't much better)

-Would there even be an Elite Four under a tyrannical king?

[ssbCasper]

@Combat Concern 1: It was originally Team Mythic before I made the chess theme. If I or someone else can think of a better name I'll change it. 

 

Concern 2:The League was basically meant to weed out weak trainers and make sure the best were fighting for the King which is one of the many reasons he was overthrown. The elite 4 were pretty much his handpicked knights that enforced his policies. Idk how much I want to give away considering it will be explained thoroughly in the game. 

Edited September 30, 2017 by ssbCasper

[Noctelis]

Better name imho would be Team Loyal (as they remain loyal to their "true" ruler), Team Monarchy (as they wish to restore the monarchy) or Royal Guard/Knights (doesn't have to be called "Team XXX" every time).

About the members and admins being named after chess pieces or cards, grunts would be pawns, meaning nothing special about their team, rooks would be mostly tanky types, bishops specialize support/special attack and knights would be swift hitters, queen obviously uses all of those.

The cards give me the feeling of Spades being steel-types, Diamonds rock/ground types, Hearts probably fairy-type and absolutely no idea about Clovers since simply grass type wouldn't quite cut it.

Also, the king being the most vulnerable piece in chess, the heir to the throne probably wouldn't do much fighting himself, or as most important piece he'd be around champion level.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Noctelis

[ssbCasper]

@Noctelis I think I'll end up going with something that doesn't start with "Team" as you suggested. As far as your guesses, the ones for the normal team members are correct, the admins are all theme based not type based and I won't say anything about the "King" but I'm surprised you thought of both possibilities. 

[Jess]

@ssbCasper

Rename them to the french equivalent. Team Royale. (as we say Casino Royale). It sounds much catchier!

The four aces, inspired by what @Noctelis said could be like that:

Spades: Steel, or in general teams themed around weapons, warriors and cane-holders. Aegislash, Farfetch'd (stick), Gallade, Scizor, Aggron, Bisharp, Escavalier, Kartana.

Diamonds: Rock types, or in general teams themed around Gems. Gigalith, Spoink, Starmie, Minior, Persian, Ampharos, Sableye, Carbink, Diancie (hold/wear gems on them or know moves like Power Gem and Diamond Storm).

Hearts: Fairies and love-oriented 'mons. Florges, Luvdisc, Alomomola, Gorebyss, Smoochum/Jynx, Gardevoir, Chimecho, Cresselia, Lumineon, Togekiss, etc.

Clubs (aka Clovers): Grass types in general, with a hint of creepiness. Lurantis, Dhelmise, Pansage, Trevenant, Gourgeist, Serperior, Cacturne, Shiftry, Tangrowth.

 

For the King, he must be vulnerable and have some fragile (all or nothing) 'mons. A Shedinja for sure. Possibly a Wobbuffet. And then, he'd have a king squad to back them up. Kingler, Nidoking, Seaking, Slowking, Kingdra, Slaking! Pick any you'd like!

Or an only-male team. With Latios for an ace maybe?

For the Queen, similar. Only-female: Chancey (with Eviolite please), Vespiquen, Nidoqueen, Salazzle, Tsareena, Kangaskhan, Florges, Lilligant, Jynx, Vullaby, Latias...

 

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Jess

[Noctelis]

8 minutes ago, ssbCasper said:

@Noctelis I think I'll end up going with something that doesn't start with "Team" as you suggested. As far as your guesses, the ones for the normal team members are correct, the admins are all theme based not type based and I won't say anything about the "King" but I'm surprised you thought of both possibilities. 

I was actually thinking that the admins would be chess based and the E4 card based, in which case the admins would also be theme-based in the way I thought it would be.

Also, it would really fit the E4 as well, seeing as they're always type-based.

 

@Jess Vespiquen would actually suit the queen set more, as it's supposed to be the queen bee.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Noctelis

[Jess]

5 minutes ago, Noctelis said:

@Jess Vespiquen would actually suit the queen set more, as it's supposed to be the queen bee.

I agree with this. Hence, I edit my original post.

[Noctelis]

@ssbCasper the more topics I find about Pokemon Empire, the more I'm looking forward to the actual game.

Doubt this is intentional, but the more topics you create, the bigger the hype becomes.

[ssbCasper]

@Jess @Noctelis You two have combined to pretty much break down my entire thought process for the concept which I admire. I 100% will be using Team Royale because it sounds great.

 

As far as the frequency of post I just feel like it's an approach devs don't take that they should. Sure keeping fans in the dark is cool but I'd rather have people be able to follow every step of the process with me and give their opinions. 

[Noctelis]

@ssbCasper Jess and I both came up with trainers based off of ourselves and were able to figure out your thought process by "teaming up".

Might be fun to include a sort like event in the game.

[ssbCasper]

 Ask and you shall receive. @Noctelis

[V for Vendetta]

Huh, this really reminds me of the Doquixote Family/Pirates(From One Piece)but their family is based on cards. Funny enough they also hold power over the entire Kingdom of Dressrosa and is very corrupted. I don't really like the sound of Team Royale tbh but I can't think of any other name that would fit lol

[SilverAngelus]

I'm really liking the whole royal concept. I'm really looking forward to playing this game.

Will the player ever fight the king?

[ssbCasper]

@SilverHelio Maybe you will, maybe you won't. 

[Matt_]

Honestly, this concept sounds really cool. The idea of involving chess and cards to add to the royal theme is really creative and appealing. Also, I personally have always been interested in morally grey worlds forcing you to make tough decisions, and I honestly feel like they help people better understand their own views and opinions that they never really considered. Just as an opinion from me, I feel the game would be interesting if the tyrannical king or at least his son has a few sincere or good qualities that better explain why so many people still follow him. I have found that giving characters, the loyalists in this case, more initiative and reason for believing in what they do really helps develop them as characters and helps the player sympathize. For example, when confronting the four former elite 4, you could learn of their relation to the king and their reason for staying with him. It would make it easier if the king had certain likable characteristics to him, or perhaps if he really cared for his people and thought his harsh rule was the best way to support his country. This would also increase the internal conflict of the player when deciding which side he wants to choose. Anyways, I will definitely be checking this game out when a beta comes. 

[seki108]

(I keep on having to go back an look up these threads since they disappear off the front page so quick.  Definitely worth it though, since they are quite interesting).

 

These are definitely concepts that I haven't seen in any fangame or even smaller rom-hack.  With a ranked system, there probably would be a consistent difficulty tier throughout the game.  Of course, that might also be used for a surprise or two at some point (ie: a group of Rooks having Knight-like skills, but their loyalty to the group is in question because of past conduct; takes more dangerous jobs to get back into good light).

 

If the player develops a sort-of rival on the enemy team, it would be interesting to see them climb the ranks of the group and develop their roster in order to keep up with you.  (Of course, that would either cause them to make enemies within the group for losing sight of there true goal  or  will make them easy to manipulate into a dangerous scheme for a chance to obtain the power to beat you------depending on how you ultimately display the leaders).  Similar concepts have probably been done in other games (and I think at least a few anime I've watched) but I don't remember anything like this in Pokemon game, fan or canon.

 

These are just an idea I'm throwing out, so feel free to ignore.  Can't wait to read more......well, onto the next topic.

Edited October 1, 2017 by seki108

[Combat]

I just had a possible idea for the team name, if you were willing to ditch the "Team" in front of it. Since these are people trying to put a king in power, you could call them "The Court" as in the king's court. (I've been thinking about the game Darkest Dungeon's expansion called The Crimson Court lately, if it weren't obvious.)

[Nyarth]

13 hours ago, Noctelis said:

@ssbCasper the more topics I find about Pokemon Empire, the more I'm looking forward to the actual game.

Doubt this is intentional, but the more topics you create, the bigger the hype becomes.

Literally an exact description of how I'm feeling right now.

Pre-game stages of anything are my favorite, since I like seeing everyone collaborate together for stuff like this

 

The easiest way to get rid of "Team" in front of the name is to either add "The" in front as @Combat suggested, or change the name into a fancy word that can work as a standalone. However, with you being set on Royale I think just adding a different word in the front would work better.

 

You may have mentioned this in a previous thread, but what kind of status does this team have? Do they hold any power at all? Are they actual terrorists or are they just labelled by that? What does the public think of them? Do they have differing thoughts on them too? It might just be me, but even evil teams should be treated like characters. Which means a great opening to them, development for it and it's members, and emotional investment.

 

The thing with a game that is trying to be morally ambiguous is that being "gray" is an assumption made by the player themselves. Sure, you can amplify and encourage it by giving unique options and choices in the game, but if either the government or the Royale aren't given equal amounts of development, then there will always be a "good team" vs. a "bad team". 

 

This might sound like something you are going for, but in perspective it can completely throw your game's intentions off-course. Look at Team Plasma, or even Team Flare in the main series. Or even Team Meteor from Reborn, who also made this mistake. The Pokemon gave them rather honorable intentions, but they are still painted as the villains of the game for obvious reasons. In Team Plasma, N was probably supposed to serve as the exact moral-questioner, but Team Plasma was so warped already that it really didn't matter at that point. They didn't do anything but villain-ing and bad guy-ing, so the player will immediately paint them as "bad guy team with good intentions but they suck so there", and that's all there is to them.

 

That is why it's important to treat your villain teams like characters. Obviously, it's easier said than done, as the player will come in with pre-set expectations of what the team will be like. So use them. Abuse tropes and defy them like there's no tomorrow, use cliches like your best friend since the moment those are broken, the player will not know what to expect. 

 

Honestly, I really do love regional teams in Pokemon and even more so in fangames. That's why this thing is stupidly long lol. But since you're trying to make the player question their morals, you yourself can't view them as the regional evil team either. And you can't do that to the government to make the Royale more sympathising either. If either one of them are just a bunch of big scary bad guys then there won't be any form of "morally gray", and you'll just have a game pretending to be that. 

[ssbCasper]

@Nyarth You make a lot of good points and pose a lot of good questions. Part of making a game is to learn from the mistakes of others. As you mentioned almost no game has done a really good job of making the evil team appear to actually walk the grey line. I have a google doc for almost every aspect of the game and the longest section is on these guys. I have answers for  all your questions like what power do they have and what people think about them. But let's save that for a future post. 

[Octavius]

 

A few quick points: so there are two factions and they are both political. If the intent is to create a 'gray area' where the player might realistically want to align with either side, then both factions should offer something similar: ultimately wanting the same goal. The difference should be in their methods for reaching said goal. And both methods should have apparent merits. Look at Republicans/Democrats here in the U.S. Both factions want the same thing (probably?); they just have vastly different ways and presuppositions that they firmly believe will get them there.

 

(This section is all tongue-in-cheek ideas meant for your consideration, not to step on your toes. The intent is to be helpful, not to tell you to rewrite your story from the start.)

So instead of having a former tyrant out of power, I would suggest having a tyrant currently in power. And while most under this tyrant's rule agree that the system is flawed, the system should still have apparent merits, or at least the façade of having the people's (or the privileged's) best interests in mind. In essence, it's a workable system, but just needs some of its flaws smoothed out. This can also lead to why there are so few powerful Pokémon available in certain areas: the haves, have-nots situation. And as the player gains more 'reputation' they gain access to new things, areas, events, and opportunities.

**********

So under this banner of leadership, the player sees two paths: either overthrow the system or work to change it from within (perhaps the player has two friends, with one choosing one route and the other friend choosing the other route).

**********

Thus, the player's choices determine the outcome of the game (and the rewards they get along the way).

(END display of my unparalleled creative genius) *cough cough*

 

As far as character development is concerned, characters who question their own decisions or show signs of growth and change (even if that growth/change is actually finding a way to enforce and cement their original stance) are the most compelling. You simply drop (or hide) nuggets of backstory throughout the game to keep players hungry for more. Hope these ideas help.

 

Oh, and one last thing: about the supposed "Team" name:

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 7:14 PM, Noctelis said:

(doesn't have to be called "Team XXX" every time).

THIS is absolutely correct. Actual teams never mention 'team' as a proper noun for purposes of their own nomenclature. If you take a soccer team, for example, they don't say "We're Team Wildcat!" They say, "We're the Wildcats! We're a soccer team!" Team is used as a common noun in self-nomenclature and this should carry over into every Pokémon game, ever. In Pokémon, it should be, "We're the Rockets! We're lawyers! a criminal team!" not "We're Team Rocket!" It's silliness and should not apply here. Your factions should have professional-sounding (or profoundly catchy or bad-ass) names that fit their respective political regimes.

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Octavius

[Noctelis]

@Octavius it's not the tyrannical king, but his son that's having a power struggle, which means 2 clean slates against each other, both fighting to rule the country in the way they best see fit.

Neither side is particularly evil, which makes it a grey zone with both sides having their pros and cons.

Also, turning the story into a power struggle between a non-tyrannical king and governing council would completely destroy the entire story that ssbcasper came up with so far, as it's a post-war story.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Noctelis

[Octavius]

28 minutes ago, Noctelis said:

@Octavius it's not the tyrannical king, but his son that's having a power struggle, which means 2 clean slates against each other, both fighting to rule the country in the way they best see fit.

Neither side is particularly evil, which makes it a grey zone with both sides having their pros and cons.

Also, turning the story into a power struggle between a non-tyrannical king and governing council would completely destroy the entire story that ssbcasper came up with so far, as it's a post-war story.

*I'm probably ignorant of some important fact(s) regarding the backstory to this game. As such, please take everything I say here with a grain of salt (apologies in advance!)*

 

Well, being the son of a tyrannical king isn't exactly what I would call a "clean slate." In fact, it sounds like a very, very dirty one. Especially if the son still has the remnants of his tyrant father's regime in tow.

 

This then begs the question, who won the war? If this is a post-war story, then who won and why is there a struggle to fill the power vacuum? I mean, yes, it can happen where the rebels win, but are disorganized and end up not knowing how to replace the government they just overthrew, only to have the ashes of their fallen tyrant enemy rekindle and sweep the rebels back under their feet. Assuming this war was revolutionary in nature, which I glean it was, there's not usually a whole lot of gray area involved with that. And furthermore, calling the old king a tyrant is equivocal to calling him evil.

 

Now, like I said in my previous post, I don't mean to step on any toes or tell anyone to rewrite a story, but if a presumably long, bloody, and brutal civil war was just fought to overthrow this tyrant, then the tyrant's son, along with the vestiges of his father's regime, would also be considered evil. The son would be more likely in the gallows than contending to win back the hearts of his 'beloved' populace. In summation, I see little gray area but certainly no clean slate.

 

Apparently Casper has google docs with answers to all of these types of questions, and I do not have the full story. So I humbly apologize if I sound like an idiot. My criticism may be unwarranted (and perhaps unnecessary), but is still meant to be helpful.

[Noctelis]

@Octavius What you're essentially saying is that the sins of the father are also the sins of the son, which I personally completely disagree with.

The people who want the former king's son on the throne don't necessarily have to be former henchmen of the old king, but loyal supporters to the former heir instead, having hoped for the prince to take the throne and make the country take a turn for the better.

The story was made to make the player wonder about who they BELIEVE is wrong and who's right and come to their own conclusion, this wouldn't be possible if all the followers of the prince or the prince himself were complete bastards or if the new government was completely just.

As to your answer of who had won the war: the king was overthrown and a government was created, but still in it's early stages and a struggle to fill the power vacuum is very common after a revolutionary war, example: time frame between WWI and WWII, where many people (Hitler included obviously) tried to take the majority of the power and influence of Germany.

 

(It's not really unnecessary or unwarranted criticism, but a valid point tbh. Also, I just love to argue with people about certain subjects, for example: the story of this game.)

 

(Ps. some words I used may not be the words that I actually mean, this is simply due to the fact that English is not my native language.)

Edited October 6, 2017 by Noctelis