keeping a story small or trying to give more length to it?

[groniack]

I have noticed that most of the recent games released in this forum include 16 or 18 gyms and after that an elite 8. When I see this, I think to myself "great! This game is going to have a lot of content! I will definitely give it a try" or something like that. But lately an interesting thought came to my mind.

If you try to include so much content in a game, will it be of the same quality? Or at the end the creator of the game will run out of great ideas and just for the shake of making the game long will create stories that are not that catchy?

As a wannabe fan game creator, I really am bothered by this. Should I set a goal to create a long game? Or keep it small?

I have lots of ideas that I plan to include in my game story-wise and a set plan for it. I believe these ideas can be easily prolonged so as to make the game bigger but I am quite hesitant about this.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you find a longer story more appealing since it includes more gameplay?  Is it worth extending a game while risking lowering the quality?

[Motorteo]

I think the first thing to have in mind is the whole story....if the story isn't totally clear in mind it's very easy to lose quality...i'm for the long storyes...not gameplay where you have to grind very much but the story itself....so my only suggestion is to do it long as your story is. In any case i'll wait for your fan game god luck

[Wolfox]

It really depends on if you can keep the story interesting enough. Playability always comes first, remember this please, but if you have enough ideas to fill your game with 18 gyms and an e16, do it. I would, however, say that maybe just 8 gyms and an e4 can be more than enough. As an example, I will give Insurgence. a great fan game, good story, and pacing, and overall just solid. It has a lot of story running but doesn;t use more than 8 gyms,  no more than 4 e4 members, it's just like a regular game in that aspect. all that really has to happen is for it to work in your head. If you have enough characters in your mind for 18 gyms and an e8 before even thinking about the evil team, go for it. if you don't have that many in mind, I would suggest just keeping is "small" (small is between "'s because it's still a Pokemon game, those ain't that small in general)

[Nyarth]

This is kind of ramble-y, but this was a super interesting topic so I spammed a bit.

 

Honestly, I think it depends on the context behind your game, and what crowd you are specifically aiming to attract. There is also the matter that 18 gyms/8 elite may just be things added for the sake of being added, and to pile up on the features. 

 

I've only seen games with 14-18 gyms and 8 elite four members posted on these forums directly. Everywhere else, it's around 8 gyms always. So I'm pretty sure that there is a different mindset around here about gameplay and story in contrast to everywhere else.

 

Regardless, I believe the way huge length=good story could work is by tying the gyms directly into the plot and not just adding them so you can say "look, we have 18 gyms!" That way, it wouldn't feel bloated since that's literally what the game is focused around.

 

On extending the story, this really depends on what game you're making. How many layers are there to your plot? Everything can be extended if there is constantly some form of mystery or such, but it can fall to the same gym/feature issue by eventually running dry.

 

If you're extending it and you notice that a section is not engaging or the plot is becoming very repetitive, then it probably isn't fit for becoming longer or you have to keep piling up on the details (which if you already have a full story, you probably don't want to do). If added features seem like it's weighing the game down and convulting the plot more than aiding to it, the game probably isn't fit for being longer either.

 

But in my opinion, if you're happy with what you had right now, then don't alter it and just go through with it!

[groniack]

20 minutes ago, Motorteo said:

I think the first thing to have in mind is the whole story....if the story isn't totally clear in mind it's very easy to lose quality...i'm for the long storyes...not gameplay where you have to grind very much but the story itself....so my only suggestion is to do it long as your story is. In any case i'll wait for your fan game god luck

The general idea about the game is there, like what's the goal of the hero, what hardships he/she will encounter and these stuff. But the story is written with more details up to the third gym. So, do you believe I should write down everything in detail and then decide on how long I will have the game be?

Thanks for your suggestions! The completion of the game might take a while though...

 

17 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

It really depends on if you can keep the story interesting enough. Playability always comes first, remember this please, but if you have enough ideas to fill your game with 18 gyms and an e16, do it. I would, however, say that maybe just 8 gyms and an e4 can be more than enough. As an example, I will give Insurgence. a great fan game, good story, and pacing, and overall just solid. It has a lot of story running but doesn;t use more than 8 gyms,  no more than 4 e4 members, it's just like a regular game in that aspect. all that really has to happen is for it to work in your head. If you have enough characters in your mind for 18 gyms and an e8 before even thinking about the evil team, go for it. if you don't have that many in mind, I would suggest just keeping is "small" (small is between "'s because it's still a Pokemon game, those ain't that small in general)

 

I was originally planing on following the concept of 8 gyms and 4 elite 4. But as I keep working on the story (adding more details and stuff), I can't help but think that more gyms could be added... I guess I will work it in my head more like you said. I really enjoyed insurgence myself. If I come close to what the suzerain has done with that game, I will be really happy

 

7 minutes ago, Nyarth said:

This is kind of ramble-y, but this was a super interesting topic so I spammed a bit.

 

Honestly, I think it depends on the context behind your game, and what crowd you are specifically aiming to attract. There is also the matter that 18 gyms/8 elite may just be things added for the sake of being added, and to pile up on the features. 

 

I've only seen games with 14-18 gyms and 8 elite four members posted on these forums directly. Everywhere else, it's around 8 gyms always. So I'm pretty sure that there is a different mindset around here about gameplay and story in contrast to everywhere else.

 

Regardless, I believe the way huge length=good story could work is by tying the gyms directly into the plot and not just adding them so you can say "look, we have 18 gyms!" That way, it wouldn't feel bloated since that's literally what the game is focused around.

 

On extending the story, this really depends on what game you're making. How many layers are there to your plot? Everything can be extended if there is constantly some form of mystery or such, but it can fall to the same gym/feature issue by eventually running dry.

 

If you're extending it and you notice that a section is not engaging or the plot is becoming very repetitive, then it probably isn't fit for becoming longer or you have to keep piling up on the details (which if you already have a full story, you probably don't want to do). If added features seem like it's weighing the game down and convulting the plot more than aiding to it, the game probably isn't fit for being longer either.

 

But in my opinion, if you're happy with what you had right now, then don't alter it and just go through with it!

You make some pretty good points! I will give trying to increase the length story a shot keeping into consideration the things you said. I will try not to force anything, since I am quite satisfied with what I have so far.

 

Thanks everyone for the answers. They cleared out a lot of things for me

 

 

[Wolfox]

1 minute ago, groniack said:

I was originally planning on following the concept of 8 gyms and 4 elite 4. But as I keep working on the story (adding more details and stuff), I can't help but think that more gyms could be added... I guess I will work it in my head more like you said. I really enjoyed insurgence myself. If I come close to what the suzerain has done with that game, I will be really happy

 

so if all goes well we will be asking @groniack WHY!? instead of @SUZERAIN WHY?!?

[ssbCasper]

Mmm. Okay so let me add my 2 cents. Firstly since Insurgence is the game being used to express why the 8 gym system works very well lets remember that the game's post game is almost equal in length to the main story. (Assuming you never got stuck or weren't being a completionist).  As my buddy @Nyarth said the majority of the community still mainly makes 8 gym games, but if the gyms and their leaders are integral to the plot you can easily find yourself having way too many ideas for just 8 leaders. As a fellow dev for me its very important that I write out the bulk and general story for my entire game before getting too far in development because I don't want the quality to deteriorate the farther into the game I get. You can always go back and fill in the less important stuff when you get to that point. So in summary if you feel like the quality of your content meets your own expectations make the game as long as you want. 

[groniack]

1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

so if all goes well we will be asking @groniack WHY!? instead of @SUZERAIN WHY?!?

hahaha!! If this ever happens, I would know I would have succeeded

50 minutes ago, ssbCasper said:

Mmm. Okay so let me add my 2 cents. Firstly since Insurgence is the game being used to express why the 8 gym system works very well lets remember that the game's post game is almost equal in length to the main story. (Assuming you never got stuck or weren't being a completionist).  As my buddy @Nyarth said the majority of the community still mainly makes 8 gym games, but if the gyms and their leaders are integral to the plot you can easily find yourself having way too many ideas for just 8 leaders. As a fellow dev for me its very important that I write out the bulk and general story for my entire game before getting too far in development because I don't want the quality to deteriorate the farther into the game I get. You can always go back and fill in the less important stuff when you get to that point. So in summary if you feel like the quality of your content meets your own expectations make the game as long as you want. 

Post game though doesn't have the same feel to it. To me, after I win the league it feels like I have reached my goal and that everything else is something less significant. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy when there are a lot of things to do in the postgame... it just doesn't have the same feel as the regular story. 

 

Thanks Casper for your answer! It really helps. I will try to organize my ideas a bit better and will then decide whether they are enough to extend the regular story while keeping the same quality. And as you said, I can anytime go back and add more details.

[Commander]

I know I only talk briefly on this stuff in what I write (at least for now), but in my honest opinion, 8 gyms is too much for a 40-50 hour game. I actually believe 6 is the prime number to work off of and Gen VII kind of displays that idea. I've never seen a good story so far using the gym leader system. I'd say Reborn's avarage at best but that is due to the superb dialogue writing that goes into the game at certain points. I just want to clear that out now before I explain.

 

The purpose of gym leaders IS NOT to serve as end segment bosses, but to serve as breaks in the story. The main protags goal (which is then reflected onto the player) is to become the strongest trainer in the region which is why they take on this challenge. The plot is then driven forward due to Team Evil doing something bad causing the protag to go out and stop them. Once that is over, they assume their main objective of becoming the strongest. Yes, I just describe 90% of Pokemon hacks and fan-games.

 

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't need to increase the number of gym leaders just because of the story. I could easily draw up a 40-60 hour Pokemon storyline with just 4 gyms. That does require knowing how to do a lot more elements since it wouldn't be a chopped up story in segments (more like arcs such as the Reborn City Arc, The Orphanage Arc, The Agate Arc, etc). Story needs to be planned out and bounded. If you inflate it beyond your capabilities, you'll burn out and the game will never be completed. A story's proper length is able to wrap up all the main loose ends by the end of the main campaign.

[groniack]

6 minutes ago, Commander said:

I know I only talk briefly on this stuff in what I write (at least for now), but in my honest opinion, 8 gyms is too much for a 40-50 hour game. I actually believe 6 is the prime number to work off of and Gen VII kind of displays that idea. I've never seen a good story so far using the gym leader system. I'd say Reborn's avarage at best but that is due to the superb dialogue writing that goes into the game at certain points. I just want to clear that out now before I explain.

 

The purpose of gym leaders IS NOT to serve as end segment bosses, but to serve as breaks in the story. The main protags goal (which is then reflected onto the player) is to become the strongest trainer in the region which is why they take on this challenge. The plot is then driven forward due to Team Evil doing something bad causing the protag to go out and stop them. Once that is over, they assume their main objective of becoming the strongest. Yes, I just describe 90% of Pokemon hacks and fan-games.

 

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't need to increase the number of gym leaders just because of the story. I could easily draw up a 40-60 hour Pokemon storyline with just 4 gyms. That does require knowing how to do a lot more elements since it wouldn't be a chopped up story in segments (more like arcs such as the Reborn City Arc, The Orphanage Arc, The Agate Arc, etc). Story needs to be planned out and bounded. If you inflate it beyond your capabilities, you'll burn out and the game will never be completed. A story's proper length is able to wrap up all the main loose ends by the end of the main campaign.

 

This is an answer I wasn't expecting. I mean less gym leaders when every other game increases their number. It's quite an interesting take but it makes a lot of sense. I guess I was stuck in the regular way of fans making games. The idea that more gyms=more story. More gym leaders really help in the development of a story, but it's not the only way to add more content.

I think I will separate my story into Arcs as you mentioned so as to organize it better.

Anyway, this was a really different answer but it was very helpful.

[Star Arcana]

5 minutes ago, groniack said:

 

This is an answer I wasn't expecting. I mean less gym leaders when every other game increases their number. It's quite an interesting take but it makes a lot of sense. I guess I was stuck in the regular way of fans making games. The idea that more gyms=more story. More gym leaders really help in the development of a story, but it's not the only way to add more content.

I think I will separate my story into Arcs as you mentioned so as to organize it better.

Anyway, this was a really different answer but it was very helpful.

 

I think that's one of the bigger things that happens in fangames, using gym leaders as a vehicle to add important supporting characters. It's quite understandable too, as Leaders are insta-strong trainers that usually have some authority/recognition/respect, so they can easily have an important effect on the plot. However, I think other possibilities are often neglected, such as, ace Rangers, mercenaries/vigilantes, reformed grunts/evil team higher ups, priest/priestess/guardian to an important Pokémon,  active researchers, ect. I think the idea of including a reformed baddie could be extra interesting, as I've rarely seen it done, and it could provide the heroes with access to a base or something (instead of storming the pace with a gym leader)

 

Just my 2 cents, of course

[ssbCasper]

@groniack Piggy backing off Commander's thoughts you could theoretically create your own gym leader system (like what the gen 7 games did) if you wanted to break away from the normal 8 or 16-18 gym system. That of course would come with its own unique challenge of dividing your game with gym leaders not being the end result of a given arc. 

 

Edit: With that being said I don't think there is such thing as over doing it and thus never being able to finish your game. You could beat Skyrim in 12 hours or play it for 200+ if you wanted to do all the optional stuff. Just depends on what time frame you want for your game. Took Uranium 9 years to be completed after all. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by ssbCasper

[Commander]

6 minutes ago, groniack said:

More gym leaders really help in the development of a story, but it's not the only way to add more content.

Again, this is another misconception that more characters = better development. The best way I can teach you the right amount of characters is to get a sheet of paper and right the name of a very relevant, if not the most important, character in the story. Then start writing the names of characters close or related around this. Your next goal is to draw arrows from the center character to the other characters showing their relation. Then draw arrows among the other characters in ways they are connected. This could be like brother, lover, and even enemies. Keep adding the characters in following this pattern until you have them all connected through relations.

 

Characters who are side characters and not super important to the plot should have 2-3 arrows. Main focus characters should have at least 8 connections. You may think of that as a rather big number, but it is quite the opposite. I know the three core characters in one storyline I wrote have a total of at least 20 each, but probably quite a few more. Characters are not meant to be thrown around and added like they're props as they are complex, non-linear things.

[groniack]

@Star Arcana Lots of great ideas I may include some of them in the game!

 

@ssbCasper I wish I had this idea before I had come up with a story including gym leaders Thanks for the feedback!

 

@Commander I was just wondering how to organize the relationships of the characters and here you are! Thanks a ton! I will take a pen and a piece of paper and get to work!

[Star Arcana]

57 minutes ago, groniack said:

@Star Arcana Lots of great ideas I may include some of them in the game!

I'm glad I could help! One of the awesome things about Pokémon is the amount of freedom the franchise gives you to build your own stories. There's just so many different possibilities that all work within the established lore, and there's a lot of room for fanon as well. Sky's the limit!