Are gyms needed in a fangame?

[Nyarth]

There's been some really interesting conversation concerning gyms, so I thought I'd bring a new one to the table.

 

Pokemon Sun and Moon broke away from the mold and had no gyms, instead replacing them with trials.

However, that isn't what this question is about. It's whether gyms or gym-like formats (such as the trials) are a requirement for a fangame.

 

That means no gym leaders or set boss you have to beat. Battles would be oriented to story-points rather than gameplay goals.

 

Would that be possible from a gameplay standard? Or do you think that Pokémon games need a battle-oriented goal such as gyms, trials, or the elite four?

[Star Arcana]

I really believe that Pokémon adventures can deviate from the traditional formula and come out BETTER for it. My reasoning for this is quite simple, it would provide a unique experience and force the creator to come up with a new story-structure. Phoenix Rising is a great example of a fangame that's moved away from gyms, and it's looking great so far. Colosseum and XD are two canon games that avoided gyms completely, which gave fans different motivations and goals. 

 

We've all played the classic "BATTLE THE GYMS, STOP THE EBIL PEOPLEZ, BE A CHAMPION" type of Pokémon journey, and while it can be made into a fresh experience, I think trying to go in a completely new direction would be a very nice change of pace. 

[Swamp King]

In my opinion gyms aren't a necessity! You can pretty much do anything in your story without adding gyms and it still would be good. I believe we are adding gyms to our games for sentimental reasons. We have grown up with them and in our minds we believe that a pokemon game should emphasize on making the trainer the very best like none ever was! We have an established way with which we can define how the trainer can become the best (the pokemon league) and therefore almost any game creator is planning to add gyms in his/her game. This is a proof that we have not gotten bored of this idea but I believe many would enjoy a brand new experience in a Pokemon game.

[Nyarth]

3 minutes ago, Star Arcana said:

I really believe that Pokémon adventures can deviate from the traditional formula and come out BETTER for it. My reasoning for this is quite simple, it would provide a unique experience and force the creator to come up with a new story-structure. Phoenix Rising is a great example of a fangame that's moved away from gyms, and it's looking great so far. Colosseum and XD are two canon games that avoided gyms completely, which gave fans different motivations and goals. 

 

We've all played the classic "BATTLE THE GYMS, STOP THE EBIL PEOPLEZ, BE A CHAMPION" type of Pokémon journey, and while it can be made into a fresh experience, I think trying to go in a completely new direction would be a very nice change of pace. 

I actually completely forgot about Phoenix Rising and the spin-off's when creating this topic, shame on me lol

 

Anyway, it's nice to see other's perspective on this. I've been wondering about the story vs. battling stuff for a while now, and which one should be given priority at this point.

 

2 minutes ago, Swamp King said:

In my opinion gyms aren't a necessity! You can pretty much do anything in your story without adding gyms and it still would be good. I believe we are adding gyms to our games for sentimental reasons. We have grown up with them and in our minds we believe that a pokemon game should emphasize on making the trainer the very best like none ever was! We have an established way with which we can define how the trainer can become the best (the pokemon league) and therefore almost any game creator is planning to add gyms in his/her game. This is a proof that we have not gotten bored of this idea but I believe many would enjoy a brand new experience in a Pokemon game.

I never considered the sentimental part of gyms, but it does make sense. I think gyms are awesome, but I've been kind of curious about the other side of the pond without them. Thank you for your input!

[groniack]

Another reason why we include the gym-leader system is because it is included in pokemon essentials. Since it's a used and successful idea, people do not usually bother to create something new and they end up with the gym leaders.

But by no means this system is absolute! If you are creative enough and willing to put work on this, you can come up with another system even more interesting than the gym-leader one.

[ssbCasper]

Gym leaders are certainty not a necessity in games.  I can't remember the name off the top but their was a fan game that came out ages ago that was focused on you graduating from the academy and then going into an occupation like Ranger, Police officer etc. As others have stated they have just become a mainstay and are right there in front of you when using essentials. I'm sure most of us would love to see either a new system (like trials) that still have a gym leader vibe. Or something completely unique like (example incoming) a wandering trainer gaining new skills and learning life lessons from other strong trainers on a road to reaching some ultimate goal. 

[Nyarth]

36 minutes ago, groniack said:

Another reason why we include the gym-leader system is because it is included in pokemon essentials. Since it's a used and successful idea, people do not usually bother to create something new and they end up with the gym leaders.

But by no means this system is absolute! If you are creative enough and willing to put work on this, you can come up with another system even more interesting than the gym-leader one.

Yeah, it might be a bit more of a simpler process in gyms than having a new type of system entirely. Now that I think of it, it might take a bit for the player to get used to it too. I like your thoughts on this though!

 

8 minutes ago, ssbCasper said:

Gym leaders are certainty not a necessity in games.  I can't remember the name off the top but their was a fan game that came out ages ago that was focused on you graduating from the academy and then going into an occupation like Ranger, Police officer etc. As others have stated they have just become a mainstay and are right there in front of you when using essentials. I'm sure most of us would love to see either a new system (like trials) that still have a gym leader vibe. Or something completely unique like (example incoming) a wandering trainer gaining new skills and learning life lessons from other strong trainers on a road to reaching some ultimate goal. 

I think I remember something similar, but it wasn't a fangame. It was a ROM hack, and you played as four different roles in this medieval setting. All I remember is that they switched from ROM hacking to Essentials.

 

The absolute absence of any type of gym-like system was what I was thinking about a lot, and your take is a pretty good example of what I meant!

[ssbCasper]

@Nyarth I think with a bit of creativity or help from others making a new system wouldn't be that hard. We've all played other games or watched shows with interesting stories that could be fitting to be turned into a Pokemon game. The example I made I just came up with on the spot. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by ssbCasper

[seki108]

39 minutes ago, ssbCasper said:

I can't remember the name off the top but their was a fan game that came out ages ago that was focused on you graduating from the academy and then going into an occupation like Ranger, Police officer etc

Was that Kovalok's Adventure?  I think it had that premise, though I have yet to play it even after downloading it months ago.

[Wolfox]

Depends on the game and other focus. Personally, I would love to see a game focus more on the Pokemon Contest and Coördinator side of the journey over the Gym Badge journey.

[Noctelis]

Personally I don't think gyms are necessary, as long as something else replaces the level caps of the gym badges.

If the game has nothing that prevents people from over training their pokemon, they'll likely lose interest very quickly as the game becomes too easy.

A good example of a good replacement is Pokemon Apex, where it's replaced with some kind of curse with multiple locks that simply prevents the trainers pokemon from growing stronger.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Noctelis

[kithas]

I think gyms serve a purpose: Level cap, serve as a main quest line between the evil-stopping business, setting guidelines (city orders, level caps...)

But I don't think they are an absolute need. Open world pokémon rpgs focusing on sidequests and with leveling trainers along the player, for example (or simply the toughter mons crushing you if you go the wrong neighbourhood), or even a fixed questline game with different control points to increase the level cap.

 

Besides, pokémon games could focus on so many things besides battling (Catching, breeding, contests, exploring...) that expanding our views, the gym system is only a very specific one. But it's the one we're used to, so there's that.

[Commander]

Leveling systems is not a simple subject as it's a problem which developers must develop based on their knowledge and how they want their game to work. The one I was going to use if I ever made a fan-game was actually a rubber band experience system. If Pokemon fell behind, they'd gain a higher yield of experience compared to the official games, but if they were close to the current enemy levels, it'd shrink significantly (also bosses would not yield exp to avoid boss grind abuse). Level caps and disobedience is a lazy system that Ame only implemented as a method for players to rethink teams. Only a handful of people are willing to think outside the box to resolve the issue.

 

As for gameplay and story, think about the number of RPGs who even have gym or dojos. They are nonexistant and in fact, Pokemon lore already established not every region has a league even in modern day. Orre and Alola do not have leagues yet they turned out fine (Alola was in the phase to start establishing a league while Orre is still a ways away). I guess I should explain what type of system the badge system is before explaining why don't people write outside of it (other than the whole "Because it's not Pokemon if you don't")

 

The Gym Leader/Badge system is what I'm going to call a fixed frame narrative. This means that segments of the story are paced at regular intervals (or roughly) which is determined by Gym Leaders who serve as area bosses. They are the bosses as you can't face the gym leader due to reason A which after reason A has been resolved, the player then sets their goal to leader B who you can't fight due to reason B. It's a very squared off structure and easy to work with, but at the cost of the plot being very choppy and jagged. Most game makers aren't people who started out studying writing books and novels (or a focus studying that material) so they can't grasp video game writing that well (which is much harder than book writing) and just cop out and use an easy to work with system. In fact, most game series rely on a basic structure they created in their first game for a system. It's understandable but...Pokemon is the champ for horrible game writing. Pokemon is the butt of the joke when making game writing jokes it's that bad at points. And most people who play Pokemon don't play for the plot.

 

But I did say it is possible to make a game without Gym Leaders. How? I'm going to call this an unframed structure design. You can and will design a frame for this, but likely the segments will be divided with the later parts being much longer (and harder) than the earlier segments. This could be traveling to a new region, completing a temple, or even defeating a high rank admin among a group. So for the Gym Leader system you have a plot point for every leader which is going to be a lot of markers you're required to travel across the board. Without that system, you're going to have 4-5 plot points representing that area. You need to make even more decisions such as where breaking points (aka relax time), hard and easy bosses, and character development are all going to fit within those segments and how to go about it. For Gym Leader's system, it was basically a "learn about the gym leader before you fight them" case scenario. Now, you must decide when it is best to represent their growth and even their backstory. And yes, it's A LOT harder to write a story in this style as you have more freedom and no structure to follow or guide you (leading to more work and brainstorming). It's absolutely worth the tradeoff as well, people will start paying attention since they aren't used to this (compared to them thinking "Okay, the gym is locked so I gotta go follow them and they'll tell me where to go next then we go back to the gym and fight"). Trust me, a writer's greatest tool is being able to keep the audience wondering what will happen next.

[seki108]

I haven't really gotten far into it (and probably won't for a while), but the fangame Legends of the Arena forgoes gym battles for a more tournament format.  It's still the same concepts to a degree, but slightly different than the same formula.

[Noctelis]

@Commander I actually prefer the rubber band experience system over the simple level cap system.

I prefer it mostly because it's also used a lot in many successful RPG franchises, for example: Final Fantasy.

Makes it a lot easier to get past extremely hard fights, but will still come with the cost of massive grinding, without the penalty which is disobedience system (of which I'm certain that a lot of people hate it).

Especially started to hate the disobedience system after Reborn with badges not/barely raising the level cap.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Noctelis

[cavonzia]

imo, i don't think gyms are needed in fangame. if the creator of the fanmade game are creative enough, then let's them do whatever they want with their creativity. after all i believe many of us want to play fanmade game to get different experience, either story, gameplay or character itself.

[Octavius]

Almost every game has a system in which the player powers-up and gradually becomes stronger over the course of the game: unlocking new gear, mastering new abilities, etc. And games are usually divided up into areas with enemies whose strength rises to meet your current strength. Pokémon is no different. Ultimately, gym leaders have been the staple for the Pokémon series as the bosses of each area that impede progress to the next 'power-up'. So the answer to the question, does a Pokémon game need gyms (or a league system)? Of course not. Badges, gym leaders, the Pokémon League, they are all just names we use to describe a larger system, or game.

 

But a Pokémon game almost certainly needs something that serves a similar function to what gyms do now: that is, bosses that impede progress to the next 'power-up,' the next stage of the game. A much less rigid system than the monotype-only gym leaders that you fight at ~5 level intervals would probably be a welcome change, but at the same time, that system provides a certain measure of stability and even identity to Pokémon games. Improvements can be made to the overall monotype system to make these bosses known as gym leaders more interesting, but overall they serve their purpose as bosses, challenges, and benchmarks by which one measures their progress within the game--and the overall tempo of the game as well. No matter how many different plot events or ongoing stories you have in any given 'area' of a Pokémon game, you are still going to need to propose a key boss fight that unlocks the next phase or main power-up of the game. Gym leaders are the conventional instrument by which this process is currently implemented. and while you can change the name, you can't change the game. Because if you do, you've created an entirely different style of game that is no longer the level-up system that Pokémon currently uses.

 

As far as changing the name is concerned, I can imagine an 'open-world' Pokémon game where each boss's (gym leader, whatever) team scales in level as your party scales in level. But this doesn't eliminate the level cap concept. In fact, it complicates it. I imagine any other system--any other name--someone comes up with will bring with it its own set of issues. So overall, the gym leader system is fine because it takes into account the level-based nature of Pokémon itself. 

 

But if anyone has any specific ways in which they can define a system that changes the name (areas filled with power-ups with boss fights serving as gatekeepers that unlock the next area) without changing the game (a level-based system where the objective is to constantly increase the quality of your gear -pokemon in this case- and loot), I would be curious to hear it.