Autumn 2012 Tier Changes!

[Amethyst]

Apparently I feel the need to put a ! in every news title lately, I don't know.

Hi! So we had discussed previously that each season, we're going to offer prizes for the people who end holding the highest position on the ladder. In order to do this fairly, however, (and also to prune a lot of dead entries), we need to reset the ladder so everyone starts on a blank slate. We had also discussed just touching up tiers before the start of each season to keep everything as ship-shape as possible.

So! We have like a week and a half to do this, derp, but hopefully there isn't too much that needs to be changed.

Let's use this topic to suggest nominations for things to be considered for movement.

Some things I remember that have been suggested to me in the past are:

Moving Zapdos down to BL (outclassed by Thundurus in OU)

Moving Machamp down to BL (outclassed by Conkledurr in OU)

Moving Tornadus-T up to BL or OU (too stronk for UU)

I'm sure there are more potentials, too. Um, also, for the sake of the community, let's spare ourselves the debate on banning things such as Chandelure, Blaziken, Swift Swim, etc, from OU- we've been over those way too many times as is, and they're part of what keeps Reborn what it is now. We're just looking to tweak the tiers, not change our whole meta.

So, let's hear it.

[TheNewEnigma]

I can agree with the machamp thing

[Eternal Edge]

I don't see why something shouldn't be banned if it is too powerful. "Making Reborn what it is now" isn't an acceptable argument to not ban something. By the same logic let's make Mewtwo UU because it could also make Reborn.

[Amethyst]

It's like opening a debate on abortion, or creationism, or whether lady gaga is a musician or a circus freak- it's easiest just to not open those floodgates qq

At least not when we're aiming to have it settled in a week.

[Ringabel]

Keep swift swim for Armaldo

[Amethyst]

Swift Swim isn't going anywhere. Especially on Armaldo. XD

[Voctrode]

Why can't Lady Gaga be both? c:

[Godot]

Psh, fu conkldurkle... and ya... therian tornadus is uberly OP, I am still trying to fix my team just for the soul purpose of dealing with HIM!

[Swimming95]

I agree with those three changes. As far as tornadus goes, I think he is more OU than BL

[Clouds and Puddles]

Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W should be moved down to OU

[Shanco]

Kyurem-B has been test unbanned by the main Pokemon Online server, so Clouds and Puddles has a point there. However, Kyurem-W will remain Uber in all likelihood due to the ever-so-slight advantage Kyurem-W has over Kyurem-B (Fire moves as opposed to Electric, and Kyurem has super high Special attack, which gives a great boost to moves like Dragon Pulse, Ice Burn, Fusion Flare and Ice Beam).

Anyway, here's what I propose

- Genesect to BL (poor defenses, Bug Buzz and Flash Cannon = only usable STABs)

- Abomasnow to OU (summons Hail, which is the best weather in the game if it's harnessed right)

- Sharpedo to OU if it's not there already (High Attack + Speed Boost = Oh my.)

- Tornadus-I to BL or OU as well (twin 100+ base offenses with great speed)

- Rotom-H to BL or OU (just as good as Rotom-W although weak to Stealth Rock, Overheat gets ridiculous in sun and it has the Special Attack to OHKO almost everything under the sun [haha...get it?] that doesn't resist it, even without Specs.)

- I would disagree about Machamp being outclassed by Conkeldurr. With No Guard and decent Special Defense, it has its niches that make it viable in OU.

I separate the next one from the others because this is probably the most underrated pokemon on Reborn.

- Sawk to UU (A fighting Pokemon with Sturdy/Mold Breaker as its abilities and 125 base Attack is something that does not simply sit in LU, no matter how bad its defenses are. Oh, and it's got the elemental punches thanks to the B/W 2 move tutors so it can even destroy Skarmory. Incredible revenge killer.)

[Noivy]

Thank god that Tornadus is moving up. It's something that I have been quietly pining to happen for awhile now.

Anyways, let me read the rest...

Machamp... Eh? Im not to sure about that. As Ryan said above me, it has the defense to stand one moderately powered attack, and No Guard + Dynamic Punch STAB with that already massive Attack stat can tear apart most nonghost foes.

Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W should be moved down to OU

NO! They have unparalelled Attack and Special Attack, enough puld to stand quite a few attacks, and can EASILY Lay down the thrashing on anything that comes against them. The only thing that equals their attack is Deoxys-A, and that has no bulk what so ever.

[The Fush]

- Abomasnow to OU (summons Hail, which is the best weather in the game if it's harnessed right)

Does Abomasnow have anything good other than hail in OU which other pokemon can't outclass (easily?). Putting Abomasnow in OU for the sole purpose of hail is something I don't agree with. BL and below have far more partners that can make use of hail. If Abomasnow was moved to OU, all those teams would be lost, since there is no other pokemon with snow warning (unlike other weathers, which have the likes of Vulpix and Hippowdon), which would be a huge disadvantage for anyone in reborn making a lower tier hail team (no, I am not the only one). Pokemon like Tyranitar and Politoed are in OU have something else good in them apart from weather. Politoed can specially hit hard and Tyranitar is a walking special sponge with the power of both special and physical attacks. Abomasnow's abilities (it doesn't have much for it apart from offense, leading to physical/special/mixed attacking) can't stand up in OU. Switching into one for hail purpose in battle in ridiculous, since anything with HP fire, along with Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Kingdra and many others can make 1-turn work of it like a Shadow Tag Chandelure can do for most things.

Abomasnow is fine in BL where it is, where it can tag up with Pokemon such as Kyurem (normal form), Glaceon and so on.

Also, best weather in the game? That depends on the situation. Defense is laughable, since the only thing going for resistance (as far as Ice types go, since they're the worst defensive type) is Walrein and Dewgong (both in low tiers), along with Ice Body. Offense is all it can throw at you in most situations, unlike Sand and Rain, which have bulks like Vaporeon and Tyranitar, and killing machines like Kingdra and Excadrill. Why do you think sun isn't used more often either?

Edited September 13, 2012 by BeaverRoo

[片思い]

guys.

lets put skymin in OU

it's cute.

[Duster]

I understand that we have argued shadow tag Chandelure to death, but is there anyway that we can have a private pm elsewhere to discuss it Ame? That poke is the only problem I have with reborn right now.

Regarding Machamp, Conk and Machamp have two different purposes. Conk is a great bulky sweeper (most of the time this is what he used for, and bulk up is his most popular set) while Machamp serves to abuse no guard dynamic punch. That being said Machamp gets demolished by bulky Pyschics (Reuniclus) and will-o-wisps from Ghosts (Sableye and Jellicent). So I even vote to make him UU because of his deathly fear of status.

Here are some proposed changes that I suggest.

Mienshao- BL (Yes fake out regenerator is great, but he is so frail that he can't abuse it very well, even if it just to recover life orb recoil. 65, 60, 60 defenses means he will go down to most neutral attacks and 105 speed may sound fast, but it really isn't when paired with other frail attackers such as Jolteon and Alakazam)

Dusclops- Bl ( Freaking bulky ghost type, needs to switch places with Dusknoir because he largely outclasses him. Higher attack really doesn't matter that much when looking at how bulky Dusclops is with eviolite.)

Sableye- OU ( Priority will-o-wisp is too good. OU for sure)

Ludicolo- OU ( How the hell is this thing in UU? With swift swim and politoed it abuses its incredible coverage and great duel stabs. With STAB Giga Drain to recover life orb recoil, ice beam, focus blast, and surf it hits everyone poke in the game for at least neutral coverage, and 2x if the opposing poke is neutral to water. This is the biggest change I propose, and the one that needs to happen.)

Amoongus- OU (The anti-metagame pokemon. Spore+regenerator+great bulk is fantastic. It is a great check to rain teams (except for Tornadus t) and fighting types on the prowl OU. This guy definitely should be OU.)

Kyurem-B needs to be in uber period. Not even sure why Kyurem-W is being argued for OU.

[Spiri]

Porygon2 to UU/BL - It really doesn't have a place in OU

Cresselia to UU/BL- Probably would be one of your best physical wall in UU or BL, but in OU is easily dominated

Murkrow to NU- Only perk is Prankster otherwise poor defenses

Exploud to NU- Again, this is out classed EASILY by Sawks

Sawks to UU- Due to the uber powerful Sturdy+Close Combat

Simisear to NU- This is outclassed easily again.

Haunter to LU- Easily can stand most of the LU threats and outclasses most NU Pokemon

And finally..... MAGIKARP TO UBERS! (I had to... xD)

Edited September 14, 2012 by Spiri

[Ringabel]

Armaldo.Swift Swim Overused. that's all i got

[Hyouka]

ludicolo and armaldo out of the rain isn't that much of anything. jussayain

its the same reason why rampardos cant be ou. it has great stats and moves but needs the trick room.

unless you want to start scarfing things.

[Swimming95]

Genesect should definitely stay OU, both of its main varients are not "easily" countered and just because it has poor defensese does not mean it isn't good

Abomasnow.... HAHAHHAHAHAHA that one has been said already, definitely NOT ou

Tornadus I agree with being OU

Machamp just isn't used much or is useful in OU after the gen change. Especially with the addition of elemental punches on conkeldur

Sharpedo/Rotom-H are simply not powerful enough. Rotom-H is mostly for defenses not offensive

Skymin I have said elsewhere that he should remain ubers...

Dusclops is bulky but still, it can be countered very easily

Ludicolo can't get swift swim easily in UU and thus does not pose a threat as he isn't as useful without it. Same with armaldo. The reason why kingdra doesnt fall under this is its ability to pose a threat without the safety of rain

Amoongus... really? even in the lower tiers, many things can counter them, anything with fire for instance >.>

As far as the chandy argument goes, I definitely like it in OU. If it is scarf, it might be able to get one revenge kill but for the most part, it can be countered. A lot of pokemon are strong enough to endure an attack from it and certainly if it isn't scarfed, its speed isn't too amazing.

[Kamina]

OKAY i would like to see the rotom fan and rotom Ice in a tier that is lower UU. its no way near used as much as its counter part fire and grass! Also for LC tier, i don't understand why weather is not allowed or why misdreavus and murkrow are banned when they are allowed even in PO?

[Joker]

I'd like Darkrai to be in OU. There are plenty of pokemon that can take it out rather easily. Ex: Heracross, Conkldurr, Breloom. etc etc. Only way I see him causing an issue is if he's a lead. After Stealth Rocks which are common leads, one Mach Punch or Megahorn can easily dispose of him. I'd like him to be considered if nothing else. >>

[Noivy]

Also, best weather in the game? That depends on the situation. Defense is laughable, since the only thing going for resistance (as far as Ice types go, since they're the worst defensive type) is Walrein and Dewgong (both in low tiers), along with Ice Body. Offense is all it can throw at you in most situations, unlike Sand and Rain, which have bulks like Vaporeon and Tyranitar, and killing machines like Kingdra and Excadrill. Why do you think sun isn't used more often either?

I'd object to that statement. Mmmyes. Please do go on about how Sun is not as good as Sand or Rain.

Oh and Ryan brings up another good point.

- If Chansey is in OU, why on earth isn't Blissey? Unlike Chansey, Blissey actually has some respectable Special Attack, so it can do some damage in ways not named Toxic or Seismic Toss. Moves like Flamethrower, Ice Beam and others are viable options, or better yet...STAB Hyper Beam. Yyyyeeeeeeeeaaaaahhhhh.

If Chansey is the annoying defensive status brick, Blissey is the annoying Special spamming staller. I NEVER understood why Blissey is BL. It is just as damn good at stalling as Chansey, and has acsess to LEFTOVERS without the need for Evolite, boosting it's annoying stalling capabilities. And in Blissey's case, thats a LOT of hitpoints regained per turn. Dont even bring up Fighting types, because what smart player's going to keep it out against an incoming Drain Punch or Dynamic Punch?

Kick Blissey out of BL and throw it to OU.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Listar Iostone

[Shanco]

Alright, here's some responses to some arguments.

- I still insist that although Machamp may be outclassed by ol' Conker, doesn't mean that it's not as useful. Keep in mind that the Special Defense at 85 base (indeed passable) makes it a viable switch in for something that's about to take a Bug Buzz, Dark Pulse, or even the odd Power Gem, which I've seen a lot more of recently, all like a boss. It also learns...Fire Blast!? This attack makes no sense being available for Machamp and Rampardos, but if you think about it it's a valuable attack, especially with No Guard, as it lets you deal some supreme damage to Skarmory and Ferrothorn without recoil damage from Iron Barbs or a Rocky Helmet, which I'm startin' to see on Skarmory a bit.

- Chandelure has a place in OU. There's been some debate to put it in Ubers, but as the great Amethyst said, "It's what makes Reborn what it is" (Sorry Edge, I'm not with you here). Shadow Tag is cool. For sure. It has twin 90 base defenses. Even cooler. But the bulkiness doesn't sound as cool when you find out that its base HP is 60. Let's not hear arguments about banning Chandelure at least until we ban Excadrill, Garchomp, and Blaziken...which won't be...ever.

- All this talk about Swift Swim...if you move Armaldo up to OU because of Swift Swim, it'll do its thing and get destroyed by a good Water, Rock, or Steel. A good STAB Aqua Jet or Bullet Punch shall silence it. Now Ludicolo I could see some argument for due to its versatility and its three weaknesses...Flying, Bug, and Poison we don't see too much of in OU (maybe Bug). But my stance on the Great Leaf Sombrero is neutral, really.

- I think the person that suggested Shaymin-S be brought down to OU may be onto something. I mean, it's a Grass-Flying? How much worse can a typing get in Ubers? Weak to Ice, Rock, Fire, Flying and Poison! You're not going to take ANYTHING down up there besides maybe Kyogre and Groudon. But it can use its niches in a tier that finds itself scarce of both Grass and Flying pokemon Its unique move, Seed Flare, really, is nothing more than a Grass-type Hydro Pump. Oh, and its defenses are mediocre. Sashers will shrug it off...

- If Chansey is in OU, why on earth isn't Blissey? Unlike Chansey, Blissey actually has some respectable Special Attack, so it can do some damage in ways not named Toxic or Seismic Toss. Moves like Flamethrower, Ice Beam and others are viable options, or better yet...STAB Hyper Beam. Yyyyeeeeeeeeaaaaahhhhh.

[Duster]

Well actually after some testing Ludicolo probably shouldn't be OU, your right Swimming. It just doesn't hit hard enough outside of rain.

(Kind of embarrassing how adamant I was making it OU, oh well live and learn.)

But still, Amoongus should be in OU to counter prominent OU Pokemon, especially the almighty techloom. With spore and regenerator, arguably the best move and best ability in the game, it should be in OU. With sleep mechanics the way they are, a sleeping poke might as well be considered fodder. So Amoongus definitely has its place. And swim your logic behind Amoongus being UU is that it can easily be taken out by fire attacks. By that logic Salamance shouldn't be OU because it is easily taken out by ice attacks. Amoongus is bulky to survive almost every unboosted 2x attack, and weak hidden powers won't do much to it.

No offense to the Armadolo fans, but he largely is outclassed by Kaputops considering Kaputops has water STAB to abuse in the rain.

[Poetic]

Porygon2 to UU/BL - It really doesn't have a place in OU

Alright, seeing as I've been running Porygon2 since it first came to Reborn, I can testify that it does belong in OU without a doubt. I've seen it take a Focus Punch from a Conkeldurr, I've seen it 2HKO several OU Pokemon just because of the coverage and power he has behind him. Not to mention it can inflict statuses with ease. It might be a digital rubber ducky but it is a rather impressive Pokemon.