Autumn 2012 Tier Changes!

[FraRPetO]

Alright, here's some responses to some arguments.

- I still insist that although Machamp may be outclassed by ol' Conker, doesn't mean that it's not as useful. Keep in mind that the Special Defense at 85 base (indeed passable) makes it a viable switch in for something that's about to take a Bug Buzz, Dark Pulse, or even the odd Power Gem, which I've seen a lot more of recently, all like a boss. It also learns...Fire Blast!? This attack makes no sense being available for Machamp and Rampardos, but if you think about it it's a valuable attack, especially with No Guard, as it lets you deal some supreme damage to Skarmory and Ferrothorn without recoil damage from Iron Barbs or a Rocky Helmet, which I'm startin' to see on Skarmory a bit.

- Chandelure has a place in OU. There's been some debate to put it in Ubers, but as the great Amethyst said, "It's what makes Reborn what it is" (Sorry Edge, I'm not with you here). Shadow Tag is cool. For sure. It has twin 90 base defenses. Even cooler. But the bulkiness doesn't sound as cool when you find out that its base HP is 60. Let's not hear arguments about banning Chandelure at least until we ban Excadrill, Garchomp, and Blaziken...which won't be...ever.

- All this talk about Swift Swim...if you move Armaldo up to OU because of Swift Swim, it'll do its thing and get destroyed by a good Water, Rock, or Steel. A good STAB Aqua Jet or Bullet Punch shall silence it. Now Ludicolo I could see some argument for due to its versatility and its three weaknesses...Flying, Bug, and Poison we don't see too much of in OU (maybe Bug). But my stance on the Great Leaf Sombrero is neutral, really.

- I think the person that suggested Shaymin-S be brought down to OU may be onto something. I mean, it's a Grass-Flying? How much worse can a typing get in Ubers? Weak to Ice, Rock, Fire, Flying and Poison! You're not going to take ANYTHING down up there besides maybe Kyogre and Groudon. But it can use its niches in a tier that finds itself scarce of both Grass and Flying pokemon Its unique move, Seed Flare, really, is nothing more than a Grass-type Hydro Pump. Oh, and its defenses are mediocre. Sashers will shrug it off...

- If Chansey is in OU, why on earth isn't Blissey? Unlike Chansey, Blissey actually has some respectable Special Attack, so it can do some damage in ways not named Toxic or Seismic Toss. Moves like Flamethrower, Ice Beam and others are viable options, or better yet...STAB Hyper Beam. Yyyyeeeeeeeeaaaaahhhhh.

You make some really good points here

[Summer]

I'm going to go out and say we put Genesect in ubers. You may think it's type makes it frail or it's stats. Come on! Steel/Bug resists almost everything that isn't fire. It also has highly balanced stats, making Download become a overwheming advantage. And it welcomes sandstorm. Worst of all, it's already high speed comes with a scarf. Almost every BL pokemon can't outspeed it. And there's no decent piority move to hit it hard.

Ratatta and bidoof for banlist.

Mew deserves to be OU basically because of its largemovepool. Even with crapass defenses, you can't predict a mew until it's too late. It could be a hazard starter, a wall, a baton passer, a sweeper, etc. And the furry pink cat also come with the OP Jirachi. so why not OU like the wishmaker?er?

[Swimming95]

Sorry, also forgot to mention that amoongus has almost no speed... unless you feel like running a scarf set, you might be able to outspeed and counter breloom well. If a pokemon is already asleep on your team, you have even less to fear from it as it really doesn't have anything spectacular to offer.

Also, as far as shaymin goes... I view it as a much much better togekiss. In ubers, I run a scarf varient with a lot of bulk and attack. This not only allows it to take hits, but allows it to very easily counter most pokemon. Plus, even if it doesn't counter it, its air slash and speed give it a better chance than jirachi or togekiss to outspeed its competition and flinch its opponent into submission. With seed flare at its disposal, it almost has a certain chance to lower its opponent's sp. def by 2 stages meaning that unless you know it will do less than 33% on switching in (this is a base 120 attack making it 180 with STAB so no means a tackle), you are in a lot of trouble. Especially that with its speed, it can then switch to a more SE or neutral move to take care of the job after the sp. def drop.

[Shanco]

I'd like Darkrai to be in OU. There are plenty of pokemon that can take it out rather easily. Ex: Heracross, Conkldurr, Breloom. etc etc. Only way I see him causing an issue is if he's a lead. After Stealth Rocks which are common leads, one Mach Punch or Megahorn can easily dispose of him. I'd like him to be considered if nothing else. >>

Darkrai will not leave ubers so long as it has the combination of Speed and Dark Void. That move alone is broken as hell, especially in doubles and triples. Mach Punch won't take it out before it can use Dark Void, and almost every Pokemon that can use Megahorn is slower than it.

[Shanco]

Sorry, also forgot to mention that amoongus has almost no speed... unless you feel like running a scarf set, you might be able to outspeed and counter breloom well. If a pokemon is already asleep on your team, you have even less to fear from it as it really doesn't have anything spectacular to offer.

Also, as far as shaymin goes... I view it as a much much better togekiss. In ubers, I run a scarf varient with a lot of bulk and attack. This not only allows it to take hits, but allows it to very easily counter most pokemon. Plus, even if it doesn't counter it, its air slash and speed give it a better chance than jirachi or togekiss to outspeed its competition and flinch its opponent into submission. With seed flare at its disposal, it almost has a certain chance to lower its opponent's sp. def by 2 stages meaning that unless you know it will do less than 33% on switching in (this is a base 120 attack making it 180 with STAB so no means a tackle), you are in a lot of trouble. Especially that with its speed, it can then switch to a more SE or neutral move to take care of the job after the sp. def drop.

I'm not sure why we're even talking about Amoonguss. I bet you even Ken Sugimori is surprised at how much use this Pokemon gets in competitive play when it's weak to what it can't counter. It's such a hit-and-miss Pokemon that it belongs in LU.

No matter how bulky you make Shaymin-S, while it is a cool Togekiss, it's also far more fragile. If you're using it, it should be for sweeping, anyway. No matter if you give it 252 EVs in Defense, it's toast if it meets any of its weaknesses. Tornadus-T turns it into mulch, so does Blaziken and even a strong Outrager, and the common Ice-types will seriously hamper its usefulness, especially with the Dragon-infested Ubers tier. That double weakness to Ice seriously hurts it in Ubers. That's why Salamence isn't there. Personally, I prefer the normal Shaymin because, although Shaymin-S is faster, not to mention stronger, it doesn't have a 4x weakness, and it has 100/100/100/100/100/100 bases, making the adorable little football very verastile.

Edited September 14, 2012 by rc52

[Swimming95]

Sorry, what I meant by giving it bulk is that it can stand up against things that are neutral against it. I primarily use shaymin-S as a hit and run pokemon. Against fire types, I usually do a lot of damage with earth power or just flinch it to death with air slash. Also, do not forget that lowering an opponent's defense by that much with that much certainty is a near equivalent to forcing them to switch out. Shaymin very well counters kyogre and groudon which are on most ubers teams... it can outspeed a darkrai and do a pretty good job of flinching a majority of its competition. Plus, I usually give shaymin HP-ice to deal with dragons in ubers effectively. I definitely doubt blaziken is a good enough counter considering how many turns it would take to outspeed blaziken, all whilst fending off air slashes. Tornadus-T also potentially has some difficulty if someone wanted to keep shaymin in due to air-slashes and HP ice to do the final blow. But in that case, yes... shaymin would switch out only to come back later.

TBH, a lot of pokemon are toast against their weaknesses... hence weaknesses.

[aeirow]

The only real way to doing anything about swift swim would be to bump the pokemon using SS up two tiers. Example Kingdra usually in OU using Swift Swim would be bumped to Ubers. Armaldo and Ludicolo using Swift Swim would be bumped to OU. Obviously no way to do that, so they stay where they are. Lrn2counter better.

Kyurem-B has been test unbanned by the main Pokemon Online server, so Clouds and Puddles has a point there. However, Kyurem-W will remain Uber in all likelihood due to the ever-so-slight advantage Kyurem-W has over Kyurem-B (Fire moves as opposed to Electric, and Kyurem has super high Special attack, which gives a great boost to moves like Dragon Pulse, Ice Burn, Fusion Flare and Ice Beam).

- Genesect to BL (poor defenses, Bug Buzz and Flash Cannon = only usable STABs)

Kyurem-B is stupid. Why are we discussing moving him to OU?

Genesect, on the other hand, needs to be in OU. His trademark moveset of 252 sp atk and 252 speed with a Scarf and Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and U-Turn WITH the addition to Download(Usually Download isn't THAT good, but in this case, it makes him really overpowered.), depending on the pokemon, Genesect has a nasty STAB U-Turn which nothing, bar Choice Scarfers, can outspeed in OU. So if he doesn't have a move to immediately KO the opposing pokemon, he's going to do at least 20%(I'm thinking with x4 resist to Bug) with an unboosted U-Turn. Boosted to a x4 resister would probably be closer to 25-28%. A pokemon that doesn't resist is getting the shit kicked out of it probably taking 40-60% damage from it and it KOs very easily on pokemon weak to Bug. And we are talking about NOT giving it any EVs for Atk. This is strictly with it's base attack and STAB bonus. I'll do more research on this to give better numbers, but I use Genesect and I'd love to wreak havoc in lower tiers, but if we move him to BL, NO one is going to be happy about it. That is a game changing pokemon right there. He's more annoying than weather.

I understand that we have argued shadow tag Chandelure to death, but is there anyway that we can have a private pm elsewhere to discuss it Ame? That poke is the only problem I have in Reborn now.

Sableye- OU ( Priority will-o-wisp is too good. OU for sure)

Ludicolo- OU ( How the hell is this thing in UU? With swift swim and politoed it abuses its incredible coverage and great duel stabs. With STAB Giga Drain to recover life orb recoil, ice beam, focus blast, and surf it hits everyone poke in the game for at least neutral coverage, and 2x if the opposing poke is neutral to water. This is the biggest change I propose, and the one that needs to happen.)

Amoongus- OU (The anti-metagame pokemon. Spore+regenerator+great bulk is fantastic. It is a great check to rain teams (except for Tornadus t) and fighting types on the prowl OU. This guy definitely should be OU.)

First off, Chandelure needs to stay in OU to keep checks and balances(Mostly against Scarf Genesect). Secondly, Chandelure is EASILY outclassed by the UU Dugtrio. STAB EQ and a Sucker Punch, KBAI Chandy threat. You have to sac a pokemon, but it's well deserved and an easy strategy to drop Chandelure. Any Focus Sasher can handle Choice Scarfed Chandelure quite easily.

Sableye going to OU I am good with. He has a different strategy than Whimsicott, so I don't see why he would be outclassed our not thought of for any team. He's a great Phaser.

Ludicolo, since he is in UU, does not have access to Drizzle. Therefore, his Swift Swim does not pose any real threat. Not gonna lie, he's pretty dumb in OU and I love using him, but there is no reason to move him out of UU just because with Swift Swim he's good. 2/3 of his abilities rely on the Rain which UU does not have. So the only thing he can do in UU is subseed. No real threat. Moving on.

Amoongus. Where the fuck did this come from? I hate this thing. Worst idea anyone ever had was making a phaser set for this guy. Rage rage rage rage. Really good pokemon. If you wanna beat me, use this. GG. Regenerator with Clear Smog and Spore make me cry. Great bulk. STAB ground moves will not KO him and since he's mostly used on Rain teams, Fire isn't going to KO him. Only other thing to hit him with is Ice(Which works well, actually,) and Psychic, which I try hard not to use. Whoever thought this up, fantastic idea. I've been seeing him a lot, actually, and I think this is a great move.

Porygon2 to UU/BL - It really doesn't have a place in OU

Porygon2 so good. I've been swept by one with Speed Boost. Now you have fucked up. GG. Porygon2 deserves to be in OU. Amazing bulk with Eviolite.

[Joker]

Darkrai will not leave ubers so long as it has the combination of Speed and Dark Void. That move alone is broken as hell, especially in doubles and triples. Mach Punch won't take it out before it can use Dark Void, and almost every Pokemon that can use Megahorn is slower than it.

It's less broken than Spore imo, because unlike Spore, it can miss. For the most part, people battle singles, no? So triples/doubles are irrelevant. A Life Orb Techniloom Mach Punch will OHKO him 100%, unless you run bulk or sash, and if that's the case, he'll lose some of that speed or power, and a sash would be broken with Rocks/Spikes, Stealth Rocks leads are also very common. Most Heracross's are scarfed, so speed really isn't an issue there. There's also Espeon and Xatu, both are very common in Reborn and can easily dish back his own Dark Void to bite him in the ass. Prankster Sableye/Whimiscott also render Dark Void useless, providing a safe sleep free switch to your local fighting type to bash his face in.

[FraRPetO]

Darkrai OU?

I don't think that's a good idea, even though Spore outclasses it

Don't forget its ability

[Clouds and Puddles]

What do you guys think of this? Shaymin-S, Manaphy, Kyurem-B, and Kyurem-W to OU.

[Mashew]

e.e

Kyurem-B/Kyurem-W have god like stats in Attack and Special attack.

Manaphy.. In Rain? Hasn't Amaria shown us what that can do? e.e

Shaymin-S.. Eh.

[Swimming95]

I think none of those should be OU >.>

Manaphy's tail glow is godly in the rain combined with rest. He is bulky enough where its very easy to get to +6

[Ikaru]

The only thing I don't understand at all- like, can't even see a reason for- is why anyone would think Kyurem-B/W should be not-Uber.

Can someone explain that? ._.

[Godot]

Lets keep who is Uber... Uber... we aren't moving anyone down from that slot, i casually ladder and really dislike fighting Genosect and Therian Tornadus enough as it is.... how would moving Manaphy, Kyueum-BW, Shaymin Sky, and Darkrai be balanced o.o;;

[Clouds and Puddles]

The only thing I don't understand at all- like, can't even see a reason for- is why anyone would think Kyurem-B/W should be not-Uber.

Can someone explain that? ._.

@Ikaru:

Yes, Kyurem-B/W have a massive base 170 atk/spatk and have lots of defense and hp. However, these stats come with the price of bad typing, no boosting moves, and a weak movepool.

For example, Kyurem B is unbanned on Beta at the moment because other than outrage, it lacks powerful STAB moves. It is also weak to stealth rocks, toxic spikes, bullet punch, and mach punch. It also has no moves that can threaten steel types. Because of these things, it is easily countered. On the other hand, Kyurem-W has access to powerful STAB moves such as Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulsea and Blizzard/Ice Beam. In addition to those things, it can counter steel and rock types with Fusion Flare, Earth Power, and Focus Blast. Still, it really has no place in Ubers (along with Kyurem- and is again easily countered by priority moves and faster pokemon (Kingdra, Excadrill, Terrakion, Keldeo, Latios, and Salamence to name a few). Although both pokemon are capable of tearing holes in opposing teams with their great offensive stats, they cannot do so at a level that would place them in Ubers.

[Kamina]

^ so true. also we can always change the tier system again if we find them to be OP. also can we ban moody in lower tiers like NU and LU. its not fair at all that a Pokemon gets a free acupressure each turn in lower tiers where it is so much easier to set up. take octillery for example. it can sub protect up to 6 times while sharply raising a stat and thats IF the opposing pokes actually hits every time or can break your sup after the defence boosts. yes it also drops 1 stage in a random stat but it will quickly be negated by the boosts.

[Noivy]

The Moody issue has been discussed before, and the only reason that it is not banned is because we havend found out a way in our scripts to ban it from BL and below. It's obnoxious, but thats the case. :x

[aeirow]

Do moody pokemon have abilities that are viable?

[Kiozo]

So, initially I came to terms with wanting a specific Pokemon changed, and a secondary thought of moving another.

After reading this thread, I'm no longer thinking that tiering in Reborn is run correctly.

Firstly, there were almost no Pokemon mentioned twice or more, in comparison to the total that were mentioned in this thread.

Second, there are terms being thrown all over the place incorrectly, but instead to be used as the person sees fit.

Third; a week won't cover any of this.

Fourth, I'm seeing factors like luck be utilized in this when you can't predict more than the likelihood[apparently that's the correct spelling, don't ask] of the events happening.

Stuff of actual battling importance takes more than a few subtle opinions but actual research, or else you won't get the illusion of a perfect balance that happens to be the goal here. Ultimately, this game should be about skill, and whether or not you can utilize something well. We need to be looking at things that actually steer the metagame in a certain direction or things that can shut down an entire aspect to where it won't be used anywhere near as heavily.

Edit: A point being that making changes in that time period is illogical at best and erroneous as a whole.

[Eternal Edge]

...What I said wasn't in reference to Chandy. I know it has no place in Ubers. Lemme make it better.

Kyogre and Groudon for BL.

[Shanco]

While I think about, let's take some time to give my future X-League pokemon some consideration for BL.

Cobalion has 129 base Defence, 9 resists including 3 4x resistances, and probably the best movepool I've seen on a legendary aside from the 100-base-across-the-board guys. The reason why it hasn't been higher is because it's been rivaled (and some would say outclassed) by Metagross and Lucario, but those guys have specific roles. Cobalion's movepool gives it the ability to go physical or special (although I would recommend physical) or even mixed, be a defensive wall bested in its generation only by Cofagrigus, run support sets and Choiced offense due its impressive Speed. While it does have a number of counters, especially in OU, its Defence will be relied on more than its Special Defense due to its weaknesses being Fire, Fighting, and Ground, not to mention it has the moves to work around them. Oh, and it gets Volt Switch for a hit-and-run option that can dent Politoed and other common rain Pokemon, like Tornadus. Overall, Cobalion not only can be unpredictable, but its ability is sweet, it's perfectly usable on a Sandstorm team, and being able to have the support movepool that it does while resisting damage from over half of the game. All of that put together is incredible when you think about it.

[Duster]

Yet again, after more testing Amoongus deserves to be UU. Not quite bulky enough has a hard time finding its place in battle once something has been spored.

I do realize now that my tier change suggesting were not throroughly researched and a little extreme, so I apologize. I am actually satisfied with where the tiers are now.

[Ringabel]

Vepsiquen. Ok this is one of the best Toxic stallers in the game. With Defend Order and Heal Order. This thing can tank past most anything. And Attack Order this nice for when you can't do much more better for a turn. True Stealth Rock can bring it's HP down .But other then that i think it should be in Borderline.

Sigilyph. This thing has Magic-G and good move pool and stats to boot. It's speed is not something to brush off. And it's SpA and SpD are good. And it makes for a great Calm Mind set up. I say Overused with this thing.

[Kamina]

Make ditto NU > : (. it only transforms to the pokemon in the tier!

Edited September 17, 2012 by Kamina

[Kamina]

Vepsiquen. Ok this is one of the best Toxic stallers in the game. With Defend Order and Heal Order. This thing can tank past most anything. And Attack Order this nice for when you can't do much more better for a turn. True Stealth Rock can bring it's HP down .But other then that i think it should be in Borderline.

1 rock move and it dies :/.