Which one is better, I wonder... I wonder!

[Jess]

After playing Rejuvenation as well, I am troubled... I don't know which I prefer. I have stronger bonds with Reborn due to knowing it for more time and exploring it more, but Rejuvenation feels more polished and with equally deep mysteries hiding behind it, some of which include even the MC! So, I want opinions! Fire away!  

 

My opinion is that Rejuvenation wins by a hair. Better feel in some battles with Intense mode embedded, more characters and mysteries are developed in parallel, environments look FAR better when it comes to graphics and Aelita is in it. Just this makes it enough for me!

 

[FairFamily]

Reborn.

 

Rejuvs difficulty is as uninteresting as it can get. Also winning these challenges have little impact on the story like they don't matter. It also has a huge mary sue and attention hog called Melia. it does offer more beautfull maps and a bit more mystery though a bit less on character. 

[Jess]

25 minutes ago, FairFamily said:

Reborn.

 

Rejuvs difficulty is as uninteresting as it can get. Also winning these challenges have little impact on the story like they don't matter. It also has a huge mary sue and attention hog called Melia. it does offer more beautfull maps and a bit more mystery though a bit less on character. 

I consider Reborn's Hardcore mod and Rejuvenation Intense mode as similar things. They both have increased difficulty, but without handing blatantly OP mons to leaders. I do like Melia, I just think she is a victim of the circumstances. Betrayed by her stepfather, having a huge plot behind her and chased down by an evil organization tends to draw attention on people, so I don't see how she is an "attention hog".

 

By the way, I see more depth in some characters of Rejuvenation, compared to those of Reborn.

Aelita trashes Victoria every day for example. She isn't the "oh, let's try to avoid the problem in order to not hurt anyone" kind of person Victoria is.

Nim is equally interesting with Cain, as I crave to learn more about the background and life story of each!

Ren is a far worse Fern, gotta admit though. But he still has a better reason to go evil than Fern does! Unless Fern secretely wanted to be the saviour of Reborn and we took this role from him, so he sulks just like Ren and joined the other side. They are quite similar, even though Ren was an OK guy, while Fern was a douchebag all along.

Also, Jenner is another version of Taka. In a side he doesn't want to be, but having to cope, proving his allegience in different ways.

 

Plus, Rejuvenation puzzles aren't as tiresome as Reborn's. 

Plus Vivillon has 15 forms. 

Plus Vivillon has 15 forms. 

 

Edit: Thanks for the opinion @FairFamily! Just a vote says nothing. It's the reasoning that matters!  And I respect all opinions, even if I disagree!

[seki108]

While I agree that Rejuv is prettier/more lively and has a difficulty selector (though Intense shouldn't sell itself as harder than Reborn), I think that's about the only area it might win.  And even Neo Reborn edges in on the pretty, though Rejuv has a solid lead still.   Also, while the past two episodes of Reborn have stepped it up in sidequest department, Rejuv definitely blows Reborn away here.  Those are really the only three advantages I see in Rejuv (though one is pretty minor).

 

 

The stories are very different, with Rejuv adding in a more supernatural aspect while Reborn tries to be as grounded in grittier reality as a Pokemon game can be.  If Rejuv hadn't turned more serious later on, it might have worked in it's advantage to make it more distinct.  This might change later (since it's still fairly early), but for now it feels like it tried to hard on the tragedy in some areas (which only brings up comparisons to Reborn in my mind).  If it focuses on the mystery and supernatural elements more, it will become more distinct from Reborn again.   The potential is certainly there.

 

Admittedly, judgment of the stories might be a bit subjective, depending on what elements you like in a story.  Some people might not like more abundant supernatural elements in Rejuv while others will write Reborn off as complete edgefest.

 

 

Although the cast is certainly bigger in Rejuv, it doesn't mean better.  While I'm ok with Melia, a good many of the other characters haven't been explored enough for me to care.  Hell, literally two hours after finishing the episode I forgot the name of GDC trainer with the Flareon, who followed you around for half of GDC, just because I honestly didn't connect with his character enough to care; same with the psychic gym leader (Purple??).  At least certain characters are either quirky enough (Saki) or developed enough (Venam and Alita) for me to really like them.  Still, Rejuv is earlier on than Reborn, so some might just need time.

 

 

Edit: After reading your comment that you posted while I was finishing typing this:

 

"But he still has a better reason to go evil than Fern does! "

 

----It might just be me, but I really don't consider a Messiah complex that makes you turn to terrorists out of sheer jealousy to be better than Fern's general douchebaggery, @Jess

 

 

 

"Plus, Rejuvenation puzzles aren't as tiresome as Reborn's. 

Plus Vivillon has 15 forms. 

Plus Vivillon has 15 forms."

 

-----Fair points

 

[Jess]

4 minutes ago, seki108 said:

Although the cast is certainly bigger in Rejuv, it doesn't mean better.  While I'm ok with Melia, a good many of the other characters haven't been explored enough for me to care.  Hell, literally two hours after finishing the episode I forgot the name of GDC trainer with the Flareon, who followed you around for half of GDC, just because I honestly didn't connect with his character enough to care; same with the psychic gym leader (Purple??).  At least certain characters are either quirky enough (Saki) or developed enough (Venam and Alita) for me to really like them.  Still, Rejuv is earlier on than Reborn, so some might just need time.

You mean Huey and Lavender! I think it's same as Hardy and Ciel in Reborn. We see almost nothing of them, so we can't relate.

Rejuvenation has far better sidequests, and guides you to them with Help Centres. In Reborn it's so easy to miss one (e.g. Klefki one that gives you that key that opens door in Subseven Sanctum where you can read a diary to learn more about El) and you miss important aspects of story (another example is reading Corey's diary (that proves he isn't a Meteor by choice, but for investigation/revenge) after getting that key. Easy to miss).

And I feel that Rejuvenation has me on edge of "wtf, how on earth is this connected to that" in many more points than Reborn. And gets me in anticipation for more.

 

Maybe I feel this way because (honestly) I am a bit disappointed with E17. So little story and no questions answered.

Spoiler

Also, the two paths were constructed in a way that makes me think that one is "right" and the other "wrong", since I got punished with less content for helping out Taka in WTC. I don't see how this is fair.

 

[Blontary]

So damn difficult to decide!

I would say that Rejuvenation may win in terms of "technical features". On the other hand, Reborn gives you that sense of despair, of ruin, that I just love and that makes the plot so interesting that I just can't take my eyes off the screen. It's a tie.

[Jess]

20 minutes ago, seki108 said:

Edit: After reading your comment that you posted while I was finishing typing this:

 

"But he still has a better reason to go evil than Fern does! "

 

----It might just be me, but I really don't consider a Messiah complex that makes you turn to terrorists out of sheer jealousy to be better than Fern's general douchebaggery, @Jess

Messiah complex>douchebaggery complex in my opinion. Ren was working all his life to restore peace and love in his city of origin, that he loves deeply. When we do it instead of him, he loses his cause, his life goal, and his orientation.

Fern is just a douchebag by default, with a superiority complex from the first moment, without a reason. So, yes, I believe Ren has a better reason than Fern to go evil. Even if Fern is easier to dislike.

 

4 minutes ago, Blontary said:

So damn difficult to decide!

I would say that Rejuvenation may win in terms of "technical features". On the other hand, Reborn gives you that sense of despair, of ruin, that I just love and that makes the plot so interesting that I just can't take my eyes off the screen. It's a tie.

I agree about that "sense of despair". Even though the last episode was a bit shallow. I expected more content in it, and the fact that both E16 and E17 took 1 year each, only to shove in 3 Gym battles with little to no story/character development was a huge disappointment to me. Felt like waiting for Xmas turkey and get served canned beans.

[bigboyotr]

They are both very good in my opinion.Rejuv has a better story but reborn has better battles and it is easier to explore(HM fly ftw).

[Azeria]

5 minutes ago, Jess said:

I consider Reborn's Hardcore mod and Rejuvenation Intense mode as similar things. They both have increased difficulty, but without handing blatantly OP mons to leaders. I do like Melia, I just think she is a victim of the circumstances. Betrayed by her stepfather, having a huge plot behind her and chased down by an evil organization tends to draw attention on people, so I don't see how she is an "attention hog".

 

By the way, I see more depth in some characters of Rejuvenation, compared to those of Reborn.

Aelita trashes Victoria every day for example. She isn't the "oh, let's try to avoid the problem in order to not hurt anyone" kind of person Victoria is.

Nim is equally interesting with Cain, as I crave to learn more about the background and life story of each!

Ren is a far worse Fern, gotta admit though. But he still has a better reason to go evil than Fern does! Unless Fern secretely wanted to be the saviour of Reborn and we took this role from him, so he sulks just like Ren and joined the other side. They are quite similar, even though Ren was an OK guy, while Fern was a douchebag all along.

Also, Jenner is another version of Taka. In a side he doesn't want to be, but having to cope, proving his allegience in different ways.

 

Plus, Rejuvenation puzzles aren't as tiresome as Reborn's. 

Plus Vivillon has 15 forms. 

Plus Vivillon has 15 forms. 

 

Edit: Thanks for the opinion @FairFamily! Just a vote says nothing. It's the reasoning that matters!  And I respect all opinions, even if I disagree!

It's funny how you mention Fern being the secret saviour of Reborn, when in the timeline before the current one, he WAS the hero.... Honestly as a character he easily outclasses a VAST majority of Reborn's cast.

 

Frankly I find it hard to directly compare the 2 games as I feel that both have their strong points and weak points; Reborn excels at it's side areas and it's lore while Rejuvenation's side quests and map design is fantastic, for example. Working on Rejuvenation myself, I can def say that V10's battles -should- be much better but hey, AI :^).

[Gheist]

I am extremely biased on this since I started reborn way earlier and had been playing it for years before Rejuv. I have like 200+ hours on it of me running around doing sidequests, breeding for perfect (or near) IV shinies, EV training, replaying, speculating etc. It's also the OG and has Luna in it. Rejuv meanwhile has some great gameplay elements added such as the help centers and another way it differs from reborn is that it has a small group of characters that you are pretty much always traveling with so it's a lot easier to get attached to them while in Reborn, even the more frequently occurring ones are gone for multiple episodes at a time only to show up for a bit and then disappear for another few episodes (looking at Shelly and Florinia). I get that Ame is trying not to shaft the other character so she's making sure they get their screen time but it creates a different type of feel than if you were traveling with the same bunch. Reborn mostly feels like you're traveling around alone (especially recently). Rejuv also isn't as far along story wise while Reborn is close to concluding so it's not very fair to judge them on that basis.

In conclusion, both games have their strengths and weaknesses but as for right now, I would have to say I like Reborn better but this could definitely change in a few years when Reborn is done and Rejuv is getting further into it's story (assuming it keeps being as good).

I have to give a mandatory mention to Desolation here as it definitely has the potential to rise above both of these games when more episodes get released.

 

Slightly off topic Rejuv spoiler bellow

Spoiler

Do you people seriously not get that Ren is a plant in team Xen and isn't actually working for them? I mean, he has a talk with Crescent RIGHT BEFORE deciding to join the evil team that both he and Crescent have been fighting since the start of the game and you don't think there's anything suspicious about this? I mean come on. He wants to be a hero, this is his opportunity.

 

[Alistair]

Reborn is extremely well-made and benefits from phenomenal writing.

I haven't played Rejuv much, but what I've seen didn't really catch my interest (although I do recognize it is a very polished fangame made by a dedicated and hardworking lead dev).

 

Reborn's writing, cast, very well-managed difficulty in vanilla, gameplay, themes and overall mood make it win by quite the large margin in my eyes.

[Youmu9]

I like Reborn better cause the story is convoluted in Rejuv. I don't even understand what is happening half the time.

[FairFamily]

@Jess Groudon, zapdos, moltres, kyogre, giratina, mewtwo would like to have a word with you. Also you can easily see the difference on how diifficulty is handled by the custom movepool and the field effects are so much different.

Also I'm not talking about likable or clones but I feel the reborn characters have more depth than the rejuvenation characters.

[Jess]

@FairFamily I never fought Kyogre in my Rejuvenation run, so I dunno what you're talking about there. Maybe I took a different route somewhere.

Reborn has Mewtwo as well and Arceus too by the way

Spoiler

and now Zekrom/Reshiram too

, and they are boss battles with 1 pokemon, so it isn't different than Reborn. Also, I think that the Hardcore mod of Reborn, which I compared Intense mode of Rejuvenation with, has many Mega evolutions as well, with higher stats than a Moltres (which gets obliterted by Lycanroc btw). Reborn has Garchomp as well, which is much better in terms of BST AND typing to Moltres, Zapdos, etc.

 

Custom moves are a nice touch in Rejuv. imo. I found Poison Sweep very useful for my Nidorino before it learned Poison Jab, and Stacking Shot has its uses too. I've seen people solo'ing Marianette with Stacking Shot Frogadier.

I talked about depth too. Hardy, Fern, Cain, Saphira are pretty much characters without depth that just abuse one certain personality trait of them. Hardy with rock puns, Cain with sex jokes/singing, Fern douchiness and Saphira brute force.

Reborn also is in a much more advanced state than Rejuv. story-wise, which makes a comparison unfair.

[Azeria]

30 minutes ago, Jess said:

@FairFamily I never fought Kyogre in my Rejuvenation run, so I dunno what you're talking about there. Maybe I took a different route somewhere.

Reborn has Mewtwo as well and Arceus too by the way

  Hide contents

and now Zekrom/Reshiram too

, and they are boss battles with 1 pokemon, so it isn't different than Reborn. Also, I think that the Hardcore mod of Reborn, which I compared Intense mode of Rejuvenation with, has many Mega evolutions as well, with higher stats than a Moltres (which gets obliterted by Lycanroc btw). Reborn has Garchomp as well, which is much better in terms of BST AND typing to Moltres, Zapdos, etc.

 

Custom moves are a nice touch in Rejuv. imo. I found Poison Sweep very useful for my Nidorino before it learned Poison Jab, and Stacking Shot has its uses too. I've seen people solo'ing Marianette with Stacking Shot Frogadier.

I talked about depth too. Hardy, Fern, Cain, Saphira are pretty much characters without depth that just abuse one certain personality trait of them. Hardy with rock puns, Cain with sex jokes/singing, Fern douchiness and Saphira brute force.

Reborn also is in a much more advanced state than Rejuv. story-wise, which makes a comparison unfair.

Moltres/Zapdos are Intense mode only for that matter.

 

Garchomp comparatively has a much different purpose than all of these though(And was the ORIGINAL at that) in that it's designed to be an 'Impossible' Boss fight whereas most of these others are supposed to be beaten(Aside from Mewtwo that is.) It establishes Solaris even more so as a trainer that's out of your league at this point, after he went toe to toe against Amaria back in the Factory, someone who's also established to be extremely strong by easily fighting back against the Former LEADER of Team Meteor. (Unfortunately every moment after this is spent abusing the WURF effect on him, with Lin and later Terra being primary examples, but that's off topic.)Whereas Mewtwo from Madelis seems -really- cheap that early in the game, and very much so out of nowhere. At least you're fighting Solaris with him using his own Pokemon.

 

As for Reborn characters being lacking in depth, I'd wager to agree. Despite being a big fan of Fern both for his potential as a character and a personal fondness of his archetype, him and quite a few characters are quite one dimensional and rarely display other sides of their characters. That being said it's also present in rejuvenation, with characters such as Saki(Terra clone tbh) and Indriad.

 

I do feel people here are handwaving Rejuvenation's highlights comparatively to Reborn, especially when Reborn's just as easy to criticise in the same ways.

[Jess]

57 minutes ago, Azeria said:

Moltres/Zapdos are Intense mode only for that matter.

 

Garchomp comparatively has a much different purpose than all of these though(And was the ORIGINAL at that) in that it's designed to be an 'Impossible' Boss fight whereas most of these others are supposed to be beaten(Aside from Mewtwo that is.) It establishes Solaris even more so as a trainer that's out of your league at this point, after he went toe to toe against Amaria back in the Factory, someone who's also established to be extremely strong by easily fighting back against the Former LEADER of Team Meteor. (Unfortunately every moment after this is spent abusing the WURF effect on him, with Lin and later Terra being primary examples, but that's off topic.)Whereas Mewtwo from Madelis seems -really- cheap that early in the game, and very much so out of nowhere. At least you're fighting Solaris with him using his own Pokemon.

 

As for Reborn characters being lacking in depth, I'd wager to agree. Despite being a big fan of Fern both for his potential as a character and a personal fondness of his archetype, him and quite a few characters are quite one dimensional and rarely display other sides of their characters. That being said it's also present in rejuvenation, with characters such as Saki(Terra clone tbh) and Indriad.

 

I do feel people here are handwaving Rejuvenation's highlights comparatively to Reborn, especially when Reborn's just as easy to criticise in the same ways.

I agree about Moltres and Zapdos. With the addition that they aren't impossible to deal with, especially at the point of game you face them. Their 580 BST is topped even by pseudo-legendaries, plus, Moltres at least is super easy to deal with due to 4x weakness to Rock. Complaining about it being OP is like complaining about Charlotte having a Volcarona.

 

I didn't find the Shadow Mewtwo to be hard to beat. The combination of it dealing damage to itself due to hyper mode and by stacking priority moves in my team (Lycanroc, Alolan Raticate, Lopunny, Quilava, Pachirisu) made it super easy. At least she doesn't have full restores, like Solaris' Garchomp! And the same WURF effect is applied there too, just to show you how terrifying the shadow project can be if applied to an already OP mon. Because let's be honest, I wasn't exactly petrified by the Shadow Alolan Grimer of Zetta. Or the shadow male Salandit I faced. Also, you're at same level with Mewtwo, not 35 levels lower, so, it compensates for the shadow augmentation of it.

 

Yes, my point wasn't that Reborn's characters are shallow and Rejuvenations aren't. My point was exactly that BOTH games are similar, in that they have really interesting chracters with backstories that make me crave for more (e.g Anna and Aelita) and boring ones that just seem satisfied with repeating the same gag all over again (Terra/Saki, Indriad, Fern, Cain).

 

It just seems unfair to criticize Rejuvenation about doing things that Reborn inspired it to do! They both are great games to be honest

[Azeria]

1 minute ago, Jess said:

I agree about Moltres and Zapdos. With the addition that they aren't impossible to deal with, especially at the point of game you face them. Their 580 BST is topped even by pseudo-legendaries, plus, Moltres at least is super easy to deal with due to 4x weakness to Rock. Complaining about it being OP is like complaining about Charlotte having a Volcarona.

 

I didn't find the Shadow Mewtwo to be hard to beat. The combination of it dealing damage to itself due to hyper mode and by stacking priority moves in my team (Lycanroc, Alolan Raticate, Lopunny, Quilava, Pachirisu) made it super easy. At least she doesn't have full restores, like Solaris' Garchomp! And the same WURF effect is applied there too, just to show you how terrifying the shadow project can be if applied to an already OP mon. Because let's be honest, I wasn't exactly petrified by the Shadow Alolan Grimer of Zetta. Or the shadow male Salandit I faced. Also, you're at same level with Mewtwo, not 35 levels lower, so, it compensates for the shadow augmentation of it.

 

Yes, my point wasn't that Reborn's characters are shallow and Rejuvenations aren't. My point was exactly that BOTH games are similar, in that they have really interesting chracters with backstories that make me crave for more (e.g Anna and Aelita) and boring ones that just seem satisfied with repeating the same gag all over again (Terra/Saki, Indriad, Fern, Cain).

 

It just seems unfair to criticize Rejuvenation about doing things that Reborn inspired it to do! They both are great games to be honest

That -was- a recent change, it used to be at level 50 in it's original appearance. (Mewtwo that is.)I feel like both have the same intention but Garchomp pulls it off better IMO since it's actually a representation of Solaris' whereas Madelis...yeah. It's a subjective point really.

 

I was trying to state that too but I ended up tangenting there. More over I love how people complain about Melia being a mary sue yet don't complain about Lin....

 

 

[Jess]

28 minutes ago, Azeria said:

That -was- a recent change, it used to be at level 50 in it's original appearance. (Mewtwo that is.)I feel like both have the same intention but Garchomp pulls it off better IMO since it's actually a representation of Solaris' whereas Madelis...yeah. It's a subjective point really.

 

I was trying to state that too but I ended up tangenting there. More over I love how people complain about Melia being a mary sue yet don't complain about Lin....

 

 

I don't see Melia as a Mary sue. She constantly tortures herself with remorse about not being able to protect her friends. I also have seen people complain that Aelita never thinks, is always rushing into things and never reasonable, yet I have not seen them complain about Victoria being undecisive to the point of hindering our efforts for the 99% of the game. 

[Commander]

4 hours ago, bigboyotr said:

They are both very good in my opinion.Rejuv has a better story but reborn has better battles and it is easier to explore(HM fly ftw).

3 hours ago, Youmu9 said:

I like Reborn better cause the story is convoluted in Rejuv. I don't even understand what is happening half the time.

Reborn likes to slow itself down for the sake of exploration and often dumps small little tips and hints into the characters. Neither of them is particularly hard to follow as they often make the objectives rather clear except maybe when in E17's desert. I could break this down but more or less here's everything from the first to fourth gym badges in a nutshell:

 

Reborn: You aren't always the strongest member in the group, but you are vital to many missions being successful.

Rejuvenation: Nearly every single mission would have ended in failure if not for character intervention to make you feel weak.

 

When you break down the story, Reborn is better and it shouldn't even be questionable at this point. The only thing that Rejuv really has on edge to Reborn (or did) is the more light hearted tone. Is Reborn an absolute masterpiece that people should follow? No, but if I brought up everything in Rejuv's plot that I played (basically I could compare Reborn's beginning to around Radomus/Luna to Rejuv's current stopping point).

 

2 hours ago, Jess said:

@FairFamily I never fought Kyogre in my Rejuvenation run, so I dunno what you're talking about there. Maybe I took a different route somewhere.

Reborn has Mewtwo as well and Arceus too by the way

  Reveal hidden contents

and now Zekrom/Reshiram too

, and they are boss battles with 1 pokemon, so it isn't different than Reborn. Also, I think that the Hardcore mod of Reborn, which I compared Intense mode of Rejuvenation with, has many Mega evolutions as well, with higher stats than a Moltres (which gets obliterted by Lycanroc btw). Reborn has Garchomp as well, which is much better in terms of BST AND typing to Moltres, Zapdos, etc.

 

Custom moves are a nice touch in Rejuv. imo. I found Poison Sweep very useful for my Nidorino before it learned Poison Jab, and Stacking Shot has its uses too. I've seen people solo'ing Marianette with Stacking Shot Frogadier.

I talked about depth too. Hardy, Fern, Cain, Saphira are pretty much characters without depth that just abuse one certain personality trait of them. Hardy with rock puns, Cain with sex jokes/singing, Fern douchiness and Saphira brute force.

Reborn also is in a much more advanced state than Rejuv. story-wise, which makes a comparison unfair.

Hardy I'll give you, but somehow managed to pick characters with quite a bit of info and development onto them. Fern generally serves as a thorn in your side but if you see the extended Maison scene, you'd realize there's actually a bit more to him. Likely he'll develop even more in an episode or two. Cain is a character with a heart of gold behind those jokes as he was hellbent on helping Heather so she didn't go through the same suffering he had to (his parents got divorced and his mother despises the fact he is bi). Saphira is a rash and "hit first ask questions later" character, but she cares about protecting those important to her (hell she nearly keeled over nonstop watching over the city before passing out). Are they tropey? Yes. Is that all to their characters? No. I'm actually surprised Ame managed to get that much character into those characters with such a big cast.

 

1 hour ago, Azeria said:

That -was- a recent change, it used to be at level 50 in it's original appearance. (Mewtwo that is.)I feel like both have the same intention but Garchomp pulls it off better IMO since it's actually a representation of Solaris' whereas Madelis...yeah. It's a subjective point really.

 

I was trying to state that too but I ended up tangenting there. More over I love how people complain about Melia being a mary sue yet don't complain about Lin....

 

 

Sigh...people just throw the term Mary Sue around without knowing what the heck that word even means (and it's really lost it's meaning due to that). Mary Sue is often labeled as a wish fulfillment character and usually goes to the main protagonist as it often involves the characters around them and not the character themselves. Special, perfect, and faultless often are how other characters would treat her. Melia shows many characteristics of this early on in the game which is why I said she's possibly a Mary Sue. Either way it doesn't change the fact I think she's an awful character. Nice design, but she has so many writing sins.

 

Spoiler

(Not the best but a good video to help straighten that topic out)

 

Then we get into Lin. Calling Lin a Mary Sue is just going to get a whole bunch of laughs from almost any writer who would read up on her. You'd have to label basically half the super villains in existence as Mary Sues. I guess I get to use Superman here who nowadays really isn't all that well liked as before. Basically Lyn is a very, very powerful trainer and character, but people are making so many assumptions about here when the game CLEARLY implies she isn't human. If a certain event in E17 actually surprised you, then you really have not read up on the story in years. Think of A-Ninetales kind of like Lin's Cryptonite. Yes it really hurt her Hyrdreigon but has anyone actually seen Superman killed by that piece of rock. Lin was just able to overpower and get rid of it (which some villains do overcome a huge weakness making them feel invincible afterwards).

 

But if we are talking about tropes for Lin, mastermind easily fits the bill for her. She's quite powerful, but what makes her interesting is if she knows how so many people tick. Devon corp is a prime example of this making her just feel so intimidating without even battling. Solaris is powerful due to brute force yet Lin doesn't need to use a Pokemon to feel like a threat. Braniac or Darksied (ironically Superman villains) are pretty close to her in terms of character. We also know from her fragmented backstory that she's far from a faultless character yet we'll have to wait before it all lines up. I personally think Lin is well done and slowly growing to be one of my favorites, but I know a lot of people dislike the type of character she is. Understandable, but that doesn't mean you should go around and wave the Mary Sue flag.

 

31 minutes ago, Jess said:

I don't see Melia as a Mary sue. She constantly tortures herself with remorse about not being able to protect her friends. I also have seen people complain that Aelita never thinks, is always rushing into things and never reasonable, yet I have not seen them complain about Victoria being undecisive to the point of hindering our efforts for the 99% of the game. 

The key difference between the two is that Victoria is head strong but only gets in your way in non dangerous situation which you both are in very little sense of danger (she even knows that you are stronger than her by Apophyll but you were going to put stress on a traumatized little girl and fight a dying lady). Yes it is a bit annoying and she did get captured once. Aelita on the other hand charges off and nearly gets killed twice in a row due to acting rashly. Kind of a nice comparison is Victoria listening to Adrienn when she wanted revenge and eventually was willing to let it go compared to Narcissa where Aelita just lashes out not letting Narcissa get a word in. Similar characters, but Victoria is slightly more reasonable imo. And yes, people do complain about Victoria.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 

Edit: LMAO I was so busy responding to people I never even said my own thoughts.

 

When you compare the two, Reborn easily is superior just due to more time, effort, and man power put behind it on top of the levels of innovation and improvement placed into it. It's like comparing DQ to FF which the later almost always wins. They both accel at different ideas when they are different but imo Rejuv's biggest downfall is trying too much to be like Reborn. I really only ever praised it at times it was actually different and the quality shows.

[Garma]

"Which one is better ..." is a bad wording. There is no objective quality and no standard on which quality could be based. I think asking which game is more popular would be more appropriate. But even then I don't think it makes sense at all to compare these 2 games. Just because they share some common elements (like field effects or custom shinies) doesn't mean they are similar or equal. The same way you can't compare cars to bycicles, just because they both have tires.

 

Going by standard quality measures like story, characters, gameplay and such Reborn wins by a large margin. That's not because Rejuvenation is bad in any way, but Reborn is much further developed. Rejuvenation is about halfway through whereas Reborn is almost done. Of course with more content, Reborn excels in almost every category. When both games are finished (whenever that may be) I can totally see both games being equally "well". But as of now, I guess this topic will only lead to people trying to force their opinion on others. Thats how such topics always go down ...

 

Personally I prefer Rejuvenation. Mainly due to the more supernatural elements and a few more likeable characters. I especially like Venam quite much, she's super cool and one of the best characters I've seen in a fangame so far. Also: Tesla is best mom.

 

The biggest problem Rejuvenation current has is that it's unfinished and not even close to finished. And thats why Reborn feels more well rounded, which in turns makes more people prefer it over Rejuvenation. Also keep in mind: Rejuvenation can still change a lot and some things you can currently criticize it for may improve in the future.

[Jess]

@Commander First of all, thank you for your thoughts! But I have some things I'd like to point out.

1 hour ago, Commander said:

Reborn likes to slow itself down for the sake of exploration and often dumps small little tips and hints into the characters. Neither of them is particularly hard to follow as they often make the objectives rather clear except maybe when in E17's desert.

To begin with, I would like a definition of the term "slow down" They are games in which you can play at your own pace and explore to your heart's content before advancing with the story. For example, Rejuvenation's Help Centre missions around the Hidden Library do introduce us to the legend of Garufa, which do appear later and plays an important role in the coma-condition of Aelita. We also get to spend a long time around Karen, the psychotic E8 member, and find out many aspects of her personality, which is interesting because we get a taste of the E8, while all others remain hidden, preserving the elusive elements of them, which suggests strength and superiority. 

The difference is that Help Centre prevents you from missing those tiny facts. I'd enjoy Reborn better if, say, a police officer or a private investigator hired by Heather asked for our help via the Help Centre to access that hidden room in Corey's Gym and unveil the truth behind the reasons why he joined Team Meteor. This way, I would've learned about it before my third playthrough of Reborn, accidentally, while searching for the Toxic Orb. I think that this on its own is enough proof that the sidequests in Reborn aren't THAT obvious. And, even though it is fine not to be, to promote self-exploration, it can be quite frustrating if you miss main story/character development elements due to them being (TOO) well-hidden. The Subseven Sanctum's hidden chamber with El's diary is another example of the same thing. Klefki is a mon I never liked, so I didn't learn about it until the moment I randomly explored and exchanged items here and there. Five months after, when I decided I needed Klefki for breeding purposes.

If I need luck to find out character development info, then the game is OBVIOUSLY not perfect design-wise.

 

1 hour ago, Commander said:

Reborn: You aren't always the strongest member in the group, but you are vital to many missions being successful.

Rejuvenation: Nearly every single mission would have ended in failure if not for character intervention to make you feel weak.

 

When you break down the story, Reborn is better and it shouldn't even be questionable at this point. The only thing that Rejuv really has on edge to Reborn (or did) is the more light hearted tone. Is Reborn an absolute masterpiece that people should follow? No, but if I brought up everything in Rejuv's plot that I played (basically I could compare Reborn's beginning to around Radomus/Luna to Rejuv's current stopping point).

Your quote about Rejuvenation can easily be proven wrong. In Goldenwood forest incident, Professor Jenner would've sent Ren to save Melia, if the MC wasn't there. Ren is equally strong as the MC early on, so I doubt that saving (?) Melia would be impossible with Ren in the place of the MC. Also, Melia gets saved by Spacea/Tiempa anyways, so the player's ability is overshadowed by supernatural beings. Earlier, the Garbodor was defeated by Ren/MC, but Melia could've easily fought it, and Venam only took her time to catch a Trubbish. I doubt that the three of them vs Garbodor would've lost anyways.

Later on, vs Shadow Mewtwo, Keta's sacrifice is necessary, so you obviously aren't as strong as Madelis is! Even later, in Blacksteeple Castle, we get paired with Gym Leaders way above our level, and we'd practically be useless without the help of Saki's engineering skills, our mother and Augustus and Melia's intervention from the past. Our mother has a higher level'ed Sylveon, so I can't see how this is different to Amaria's Lapras in the Blacksteam Factory raid. Again, we aren't the strongest, but we are paramount in the success of our Prisonbreak plans. 

 

When you say something like "When you break down the story, Reborn is better and it shouldn't even be questionable at this point." you have to put arguments. There is no "it is undeniable/unquestionable" without arguments in a well-constructed conversation. And because I have read your articles many times and appreciate your way of thinking and establishing your opinion (regardless of whether I agree or disagree with you), I expected more of you than this.

 

1 hour ago, Commander said:

Hardy I'll give you, but somehow managed to pick characters with quite a bit of info and development onto them. Fern generally serves as a thorn in your side but if you see the extended Maison scene, you'd realize there's actually a bit more to him. Likely he'll develop even more in an episode or two. Cain is a character with a heart of gold behind those jokes as he was hellbent on helping Heather so she didn't go through the same suffering he had to (his parents got divorced and his mother despises the fact he is bi). Saphira is a rash and "hit first ask questions later" character, but she cares about protecting those important to her (hell she nearly keeled over nonstop watching over the city before passing out). Are they tropey? Yes. Is that all to their characters? No. I'm actually surprised Ame managed to get that much character into those characters with such a big cast.

I do agree with you that they have some depth. But the same can be said about Rejuvenation characters that you refuse to examine as closely. Saki is a heir of a rich family, who probably never gave any attention to her. That's why she even made a robot of herself, to keep her company. She is lonely, and becoming expert in engineering to drift away from her loneliness. Meeting her brother later on shows the exact condition of fighting in her family, which made her resort to Terra-like puns and her upbeat, "idgaf about anything, I rock" character to counter that. 

Aelita was never recognised as her father's daughter, and she feels embarassed and lost after his loss/betrayal. However, she struggles to become strong and lead her people, Sheridan villagers, to preserve the happiness and peace f her origin. She gets impatient because she feels the pressure of not having enough time. She must hurry to become skilled and emerge as a new Sensei, and makes friends in the process. She is a teenager as well.

 

So, you see that characters aren't truly shallow, we can examine every tiny detail offered to us to evaluate them and come to safe assumptions about their personality traits. And this is pretty much similar about Reborn and Rejuvenation. Only Rejuvenation is still at an earlier development point, hence still introducing characters. We will see if they will all receive some depth, or some with remain shallow.

 

1 hour ago, Commander said:

Sigh...people just throw the term Mary Sue around without knowing what the heck that word even means (and it's really lost it's meaning due to that). Mary Sue is often labeled as a wish fulfillment character and usually goes to the main protagonist as it often involves the characters around them and not the character themselves. Special, perfect, and faultless often are how other characters would treat her. Melia shows many characteristics of this early on in the game which is why I said she's possibly a Mary Sue. Either way it doesn't change the fact I think she's an awful character. Nice design, but she has so many writing sins.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

(Not the best but a good video to help straighten that topic out)

 

Then we get into Lin. Calling Lin a Mary Sue is just going to get a whole bunch of laughs from almost any writer who would read up on her. You'd have to label basically half the super villains in existence as Mary Sues. I guess I get to use Superman here who nowadays really isn't all that well liked as before. Basically Lyn is a very, very powerful trainer and character, but people are making so many assumptions about here when the game CLEARLY implies she isn't human. If a certain event in E17 actually surprised you, then you really have not read up on the story in years. Think of A-Ninetales kind of like Lin's Cryptonite. Yes it really hurt her Hyrdreigon but has anyone actually seen Superman killed by that piece of rock. Lin was just able to overpower and get rid of it (which some villains do overcome a huge weakness making them feel invincible afterwards).

 

But if we are talking about tropes for Lin, mastermind easily fits the bill for her. She's quite powerful, but what makes her interesting is if she knows how so many people tick. Devon corp is a prime example of this making her just feel so intimidating without even battling. Solaris is powerful due to brute force yet Lin doesn't need to use a Pokemon to feel like a threat. Braniac or Darksied (ironically Superman villains) are pretty close to her in terms of character. We also know from her fragmented backstory that she's far from a faultless character yet we'll have to wait before it all lines up. I personally think Lin is well done and slowly growing to be one of my favorites, but I know a lot of people dislike the type of character she is. Understandable, but that doesn't mean you should go around and wave the Mary Sue flag.

 

The term "Mary Sue" refers to a largely idealized (hence perfect) fictional character in general and only in occasions it refers to wish fulfillment.

Again, you mention the writing sins on Melia, but don't elaborate, so it is hard for me to take this opinion seriously, without solid arguments to support this. Also, in a previous post of mine, I mentioned how Melia always struggles to cope with the fact that she isn't strong enough to save everyone, or perfect enough to get her plans always work. Her Zoroark plan failed horrendously, and we needed Crescent to interfere and save the day. The supernatural element is a huge aspect of Rejuvenation, so I am not annoyed by this, as long as everything will have a solid explanation later on. Also, Melia tries to make people understand she has no special powers. The shinies getting attracted to her is just luck, but can you honestly call a girl without real family that is chased down by an evil organization "lucky"? The whole thing is that the shiny thing forces everyone to believe INITIALLY that Melia is a Mary Sue, while this gets contradicted numerous time as the story advances.

To your next point, I agree that Lin doesn't fit any of these standards, since it is implied that she is undead, hence not human. However, she isn't a well-developed character in my eyes. We only see her in demonstrations of her power, e.g. One-shotting giant Steelix, one-shotting Alolan-Ninetales and killing Ame, showing off with pompous talking through a screen in the cage battles of Devon Corp, and

Spoiler

not getting killed even though Titania slashed her numerous times in E17, just to get all pompous again.

She is too needlessly edgy, to the point she gets rather ridiculous than intimidating. A true intimidating character would've done all those things without saying a word. Or she would have some exaggerated trait, like Joker had his laughter and love for chaos. The fact may be, of course, that she is not a badly-developed, but just an underdeveloped character for the time being, so I won't stress my opinion, as it is subject to change later on. However, I don't get scared of her for a single moment, and still consider Solaris to be the true Leader of Team Meteor. Until more things are revealed about Lin's motives. There is no solid criminal without a solid motive. Solaris has one. Does Lin have one too? Time will show.

 

1 hour ago, Commander said:

The key difference between the two is that Victoria is head strong but only gets in your way in non dangerous situation which you both are in very little sense of danger (she even knows that you are stronger than her by Apophyll but you were going to put stress on a traumatized little girl and fight a dying lady). Yes it is a bit annoying and she did get captured once. Aelita on the other hand charges off and nearly gets killed twice in a row due to acting rashly. Kind of a nice comparison is Victoria listening to Adrienn when she wanted revenge and eventually was willing to let it go compared to Narcissa where Aelita just lashes out not letting Narcissa get a word in. Similar characters, but Victoria is slightly more reasonable imo. And yes, people do complain about Victoria.

Victoria is a hesitant girl that is too concerned about feelings and fails to see the greater image. I'd hurt a little traumatised girl (Shelly)? Then let's not battle her. I'd treat a dying lady badly (Kiki)? Then let's not battle her and let the kids remain captive and die to Team Meteor. Victoria needed a strong shock to realise that truth is hard and the only way to help others is to get stronger. Shelly got stronger too by facing Corey's loss and her fallout with Heather. For Aelita, I assume you have already read my paragraph earlier typed in this post, explaining some aspects that make her more rashed and less reasonable. Also, in the E9 of Rejuv. you will see Aelita becoming much more reserved and rational towards the end of the story. It can be said for both Victoria and Aelita that they mature through hardships, while being pretty much the opposite of each other with regards to how impulsive/reasonable each one is!

 

1 hour ago, Commander said:

When you compare the two, Reborn easily is superior just due to more time, effort, and man power put behind it on top of the levels of innovation and improvement placed into it. It's like comparing DQ to FF which the later almost always wins. They both accel at different ideas when they are different but imo Rejuv's biggest downfall is trying too much to be like Reborn. I really only ever praised it at times it was actually different and the quality shows.

I assume FF is Final Fantasy, which I've never played, while I have no clue what DQ is, so this way of explanation didn't work out very well for me...  Reborn might be more "ready/completed", but I doubt it is superior. However, it IS the innovating force behind the whole Rejuvenation projects, so I accept that this is impressive. Even though, there are many occasions where the student surpassed the teacher in life, and I believe we will witness another one occasion like this here. I don't think that Rejuvenation tries too much to be like Reborn, apart from the obvious pattern similarities (e.g. massacre on a lava pool at a mountain top), because it is leaning a lot more towards the supernatural than Reborn. Which is an aspect in stories that always overwhelmed and bewitched me, hence why I enjoyed Rejuv. so much.

 

P.S. Sorry for the "sheet" of text! It won't happen again! Or will it?

[Azeria]

I'm not -particularly- calling Lin a Mary Sue there, though my lack of furthering the point might make it seem like that. I should've delved into what I meant by people not complaining about Lin there when they complain to oblivion about Melia and even Madame X but here's a couple points: Lin isn't a particularly well written character. I'd go as far to say that her only well written appearance was her original one and even then that gets trivialized if you actually think about what she actually does there; take out a level 75 Steelix which the player just beat the fuck out of. She doesn't beat Saphira, she doesn't take out a fully powered Steelix, no she takes out a Steelix running on anger and adrenaline. Not much of an accomplishment when you actually think about it, is it?

 

Her beating the Champion and killing Ame? Not so impressive when it's later revealed that Ame's Pokemon are comparatively only about level 75(Her Absol comes at this level, The Alola Ninetales lin uses in E17 is level 78)~ which is about the level the player and Adrienn are at the time. I get that levels are a gameplay mechanic but it's a decent reference point here.

 

Her stuff at Devonyx? A literal obvious trap, the same thing ZEL did back in Episode 2. Seperate everyone and get them alone.

 

She's frankly a bland and boring character that plays the role of the chessmaster but doesn't actually do anything. She's supposed to come off as intimidating but only really invokes "Really. Your OP ass again? Uuugh" by E17. My opinion on her might change depending on E18 but she's just a character that has not gone anywhere yet. Not a fan.

[seki108]

5 minutes ago, Azeria said:

Her beating the Champion and killing Ame? Not so impressive when it's later revealed that Ame's Pokemon are comparatively only about level 75(Her Absol comes at this level, The Alola Ninetales lin uses in E17 is level 78)~ which is about the level the player and Adrienn are at the time. I get that levels are a gameplay mechanic but it's a decent reference point here.

Amethyst has mentioned either here or on her blog that Ame's position as champion has more to do with her re-starting the Reborn League, not necessarily pure skill.  I don't remember the context, so I may be reading more into this than necessary.  Ep17 also reveals no one has even challenged the E4 yet (probably because of so many hard to reach leaders), so it's hard to say if Ame is up to par with the champions of other regions  in-universe.  

[Commander]

12 minutes ago, Azeria said:

She's frankly a bland and boring character that plays the role of the chessmaster but doesn't actually do anything. She's supposed to come off as intimidating but only really invokes "Really. Your OP ass again? Uuugh" by E17. My opinion on her might change depending on E18 but she's just a character that has not gone anywhere yet. Not a fan.

I definitely understand your opinion and respect it as that's what you think of the character. It's just a pet peeve when people throw a term around like it's nothing. Ironically you said the same thing about El before E16 iirc but that completely turned around due to some bit of lore. It's just hard to judge and analyze character fully for an unfinished game.

 

As for the rest of the responses and stuff, I'm not really into getting into a heated argument of a video game. I'm not saying to agree with my thought as they are my thoughts. It's actually interesting that I really didn't care for the Reborn storyline until I created Hardcore where I've seen nearly every line of dialogue 2 or 3 times. Sure there are some moments I dreaded (like the El tower scene), but it made me appreciate the dialogue more. Also while we are on the topic of the poll, there is going to be a bias for Reborn due to being on the Reborn game section on the Reborn site, but with a roughly 90% voter turnout as of this post, I think we can all agree the general populace here thinks Reborn is a better game.

[Azeria]

1 minute ago, Commander said:

I definitely understand your opinion and respect it as that's what you think of the character. It's just a pet peeve when people throw a term around like it's nothing. Ironically you said the same thing about El before E16 iirc but that completely turned around due to some bit of lore. It's just hard to judge and analyze character fully for an unfinished game.

 

As for the rest of the responses and stuff, I'm not really into getting into a heated argument of a video game. I'm not saying to agree with my thought as they are my thoughts. It's actually interesting that I really didn't care for the Reborn storyline until I created Hardcore where I've seen nearly every line of dialogue 2 or 3 times. Sure there are some moments I dreaded (like the El tower scene), but it made me appreciate the dialogue more. Also while we are on the topic of the poll, there is going to be a bias for Reborn due to being on the Reborn game section on the Reborn site, but with a roughly 90% voter turnout as of this post, I think we can all agree the general populace here thinks Reborn is a better game.

For reference; I actually didn't care much for El at all not because he was bland and boring but because he literally appeared twice and did a lot but was more of an ambiguous character. I began preferring him after I started disliking Radomus(Funnily enough due to a Nuzlocke) and then E16 happened, which made me like him a LOT. So yeah, my opinion on her could change, but I very much doubt it after her increased presence in the last 2 episodes has just amounted to the death of my favourite character and practically nothing else.

 

Either way that diverged a lot from the main point; something I feel is very subjective like all things vidya.