Argument that Reborn is Immoral?

[Athea Andrea]

So, I brought this up in PMs with another forum member, but I kinda wanted to see what you folks as a whole thought.

 

A friend of mine essentially holds thusly: because Pokemon Reborn is based off Pokemon, a kids' franchise, but has very dark themes, inappropriate for children (murder, suicide, and terrorism mainly), she holds that Reborn is a perversion of Pokemon, and is thus immoral. 

 

I strongly disagree, in part because I'm a stubborn asshole, but in part because I believe that fan creations are products of the fans. Nintendo and their brand a franchise had an extremely heavy hand in inspiring the work (for obvious reasons), but aside from mechanics, characters, and a name, Reborn shares minimal ties with the Pokemon mainstream franchise. I think it's unfair to take all the time and hard work that went into making Reborn the game it is - with it's story, characters, setting, and unique aspects, both in mechanics and feel - and writing it off as just a "perverted" Pokemon game made by "sick" people who, in her mind, should have nothing to do with the Pokemon franchise at large. 

 

Honestly, I think it's a positive thing, that Reborn exists. It puts a new and infrequently seen spin on the world of Pokemon, does it with amazing craftsman ship on the part of the dev team, and shows that the fandom as a whole is aging and maturing. We're not the 10 and 11 year olds who first saw Ash get saved from a flock of Pidgeottos, and I think we should be able to express ourselves however we see fit, even if it's wildly different from the source.

 

I might be missing something, but I'm curious to see what you friends think about this.

[MetrololAce]

It's a big departure but the only thing anyone could think is immoral would be the piracy element. It's not like amethyst is taking ash and having him jump off a bridge. The pokemon themselves aren't what's for children. It's the story that's important. 

[The Swordsman]

15 minutes ago, The Spaghetti Scaglietti said:

dark themes, inappropriate for children (murder, suicide, and terrorism mainly)

I would point out to your friend that all of the dark stuff, except suicide, she has a problem with was already a part of the franchise to begin with.

[Athea Andrea]

7 minutes ago, The Swordsman said:

I would point out to your friend that all of the dark stuff, except suicide, she has a problem with was already a part of the franchise to begin with.

But is it to the extent of bombings? And murder shown on screen? I know I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but I'm honestly fairly unfamiliar with the base games; where does that stuff happen?

[Imperial]

Cubone's pokedex entry : " Wears the skull of its deceased mother. Its cries echo inside the skull and come out as a sad melody "

Banette's : " A doll that became a Pokémon over its grudge from being junked. It seeks the child that disowned it "

Many more others are like that. A kids' game indead...

 

Main games are said to be for children yet are full of little things that are not for them. The first generation surely being the worst for that. Plus you have pokemon colosseum, full of misery, thieves, terrorists turning innocent pokemons into killing machines. At least Pokemon Reborn (even though it's a pokemon game) doesn't pretend to be for children. Actually, the immoral ones would rather be the official games with all those dark things they put in games they say for children...

 

9 minutes ago, The Spaghetti Scaglietti said:

But is it to the extent of bombings? And murder shown on screen? I know I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but I'm honestly fairly unfamiliar with the base games; where does that stuff happen?

RBY versions : murder of Cubone's mother, attack with hostages on SILPH. CO, ruling a casino with cheating machines

GSC : cutting Slowpokes' tails to sell them, turning all the pokemons of a lake crazy, attack with hostages on the radio tower

RSE : Trying to cause a volcano to explode (same as Pyrous montain in reborn, though for different motives), causing the weather to go mad

DPP : Trying to destroy the universe to create a new one (here again similar to Reborn)

SM : Vandalism for team Skull mainly, torture on pokemons for Aether (just think on how we get Type: Null in Reborn, well Aether are the original creators)

 

I don't know XY and don't remember BW well enough, but for all you can add stealing pokemons

[J-Awesome_One]

In the manga, I believe there is a scene (or whatever you call it when it's in a book) where a trainer has his Charmeleon slice a team rocket's Arbok in half. So yea. There's some pretty gruesome stuff that happens in Pokémon.

[SilverAngelus]

I highly agree with you very much! The Franchise is not as realistic like Reborn is. Take the anime as an example. Now how is Team Rocket showing up in every single episode so realistic? Eleven year olds don't always get what they want and Ash is way too naive. Plus, his many losses in the leagues might even discourage some.

 And your friend is being ignorant to the fact that Reborn is not about this so called "perversion" but about the expression of creativity that the staff members put into the game and about life lessons. 

[Athea Andrea]

8 minutes ago, Imperial said:

RBY versions : murder of Cubone's mother, attack with hostages on SILPH. CO, ruling a casino with cheating machines

GSC : cutting Slowpokes' tails to sell them, turning all the pokemons of a lake crazy, attack with hostages on the radio tower

RSE : Trying to cause a volcano to explode (same as Pyrous montain in reborn, though for different motives), causing the weather to go mad

DPP : Trying to destroy the universe to create a new one (here again similar to Reborn)

SM : Vandalism for team Skull mainly, torture on pokemons for Aether (just think on how we get Type: Null in Reborn, well Aether are the original creators)

Good god man... are we sure these are kids games to begin with? 

/s

[Wolfox]

7 minutes ago, The Spaghetti Scaglietti said:

But is it to the extent of bombings? And murder shown on screen? I know I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but I'm honestly fairly unfamiliar with the base games; where does that stuff happen?

I nice example (believe it or not) is team flare. The gen 6 team that barely anyone sees as a good team. why are they a good example: because they were gonna kill all Pokemon using the Ultimate Weapon. Let that sink in for a sec. had the protagonist from X and Y not been there or not been fast enough, all Pokémon in their world would have been gone. there's also enough mention of war to give someone PTSD depending on the game you're playing. more nice examples are pokédex entries, backstories of mons. THE MAROWAK GHOST IN GEN 1. the only thing Ame and the dev did with reborn is taking the side that is hidden in the main games and not hiding it so much.

[Imperial]

It all depends on how you present it. All these events happen in a way that won't shock. For the volcano for instance team magma speak of extending land on the sea, but you never see a mention of all the people that would die in the eruption.

It makes me think of my girlfriend loving Divinity Original Sin 2 and fearing Dragon Age may be too dark for her. Divinity is actually far more dark than Dragon Age, but the gameplay and the bright colors hide it for a part, while in Dragon Age your character is covered in blood after a battle

[Zargerth]

Your friend can make the case that for her Pokemon is supposed to be light-hearted, not gloomy and outright depressing or anything of the sort. From what I understand, there are people who aren't comfortable with the darker approach some Pokemon fangames have. With that said, I don't think "immoral" is the right word to describe Reborn.

[Sceptilespy]

I don't think that Reborn is immoral, but saying Pokemon isn't a kids game, or is mature then it appears to be because of a few dex entries no kid will understand is a bit of a stretch. There is nothing in the official Pokemon games that reaches to the extent of Reborn. And on the off chance that it is, there are no consistent events like this in Pokemon. Reborn is murder after suicide after bomb threat. 

 

@The Swordsman

Yeah, but not to the extent of it in Reborn. Besides, most of the stuff going on in Reborn doesn't happen in Pokemon. Reborn has had people kill themselves on screen. The worst thing Pokemon has done has had a few creepy dex entries. 

 

@SilverHelio

Well, that's implying Reborn is realistic to begin with. You mean to tell me, a hyperactive trigger happy girl, an "entity", and the batshit crazy woman known as T33ra can actually be gym leaders? Gym Leaders are people with authority and "kinda" power. At least Pokemon has people who actually fill the criteria of a Gym leader. There is no normal Gym leader (personality wise. The normal type gym leader is Noel lol.) in Reborn except for Samson, Ciel, and Noel. And they get some of the least screen time.  

 

@The Spaghetti Scaglietti

I agree with basically everything you said. 

[seki108]

7 hours ago, Imperial said:

I don't know XY and don't remember BW well enough, but for all you can add stealing pokemons

B2/W2:   Gheist orders Black or White Kymen to directly attack the player with it's signature LEGENDARY move; possibly hints of child abuse with N (very open to interpretation)

 

XY:  Blunt discussion of ancient war and literally using Pokemon's lifeforce to fuel a Super weapon during said war;  Antagonist attempting to use superweapon to kill player and probably kills self in process

 

ORAS:  While I don't remember specifics, heavily implied that New Mauwile was trying to harness the potentially deadly life energy mentioned in XY

 

[Sirrobert]

59 minutes ago, Athea the Magnificent said:

 

based off a kids' franchise, has dark themes, inappropriate for children, and is thus immoral. 

I don't see how that is immoral.

AT ALL.

[Epic]

It's not immoral. It's just a story where a happy ending isn't always the correct one or the one you personally want. It's also very eventful and you can see how much the whole team has put into it. Just because it has all these dark themes, it just shows how creative Ame is. There is no perfect world and for sure we learn that in Reborn. Reborn just shows a more realistic world compared to the one's you've seen in nonfangames. 

[-Vergil]

IMO immoral is just another word for justifying the means of censor. Big thing about it is that it is subjective in most things. The way you recited your friend sounded to me like she either saw something first that she didnt like and immediately became biased or as a person is generally not comfortable seeing something she knows get interpreted with things that are usually taboo in open society. But fact is that these things are there, so not taking into account the ways of thinking of others before forming a statement or an opinion is tbh pretty close minded. If you ask me, doing things in ways that are more in a serious tone, even if not welcome, are necessary to understand the nature of alot of things, especially how we think and form our thoughts. But i might have interpreted your friend wrong so please do take this with a small biased prejudice towards these kinds of topics.

 

As to whether I think Reborn is immoral or not, simply no. I personally think Reborn showed some sort of potential the franchise of Pokémon had that the original did not want to go for, for various reasons, but that's another topic. 

All in all, Reborn is IMO not the definition of being immoral at all.

[Phi-Bi]

I think it's not a matter of immorality. Immorality will always exist in Pokemon games whether the main games or fan-one. That's why there's villain right? I think it's a matter of censorship. Now I've been thinking for a while but does Reborn has a censorship rating? Sure everyone knows Reborn is not a game for kids but I found Reborn accidentally without knowing that the game will be dark at the first place so I think it's nice to have some kind of 'rating' as a 'warning' for people who potentially not comfortable with the atmosphere. Sure, Reborn is good but even the most amazing games in the world cannot please everyone~

[Athea Andrea]

3 hours ago, -Vergil said:

 The way you recited your friend sounded to me like she either saw something first that she didnt like and immediately became biased

Yep. The opening scene with the train bombing made her hate Reborn immediately.

[The Swordsman]

3 hours ago, Sceptilespy said:

Yeah, but not to the extent of it in Reborn. Besides, most of the stuff going on in Reborn doesn't happen in Pokemon. Reborn has had people kill themselves on screen. The worst thing Pokemon has done has had a few creepy dex entries. 

 

As Imperial, Wolfox and seki108 have shown with their lists it is not limited to the dex.

 

 

Most of what I was going to mention has been already covered, (thanks by the way! =D) but there are a few more off the top of my head,

FR/LG: A Hypno tries to kidnap a little girl and Red has to rescue her.

BW: A girl's litwick saps it's owner's life force.

BW/BW2: A Darkrai murders a little girl.

BW2: Neo Plasma's frigate starts freezing Unova from Opelucid City, some civilians were not able to evacuate in time.

 

 

[Sceptilespy]

31 minutes ago, The Swordsman said:

As Imperial, Wolfox and seki108 have shown with their lists it is not limited to the dex.

 

 

Most of what I was going to mention has been already covered, (thanks by the way! =D) but there are a few more off the top of my head,

FR/LG: A Hypno tries to kidnap a little girl and Red has to rescue her.

BW: A girl's litwick saps it's owner's life force.

BW/BW2: A Darkrai murders a little girl.

BW2: Neo Plasma's frigate starts freezing Unova from Opelucid City, some civilians were not able to evacuate in time.

 

 

Regardless, like Imperial said, it's how it's presented. Reborn has people killing themselves on screen, blatantly telling you their dead, showing their bodies, showing souls destroyed on screen. The game delivers this in a dark tone, letting you know that with no subtlety whatsoever. The official Pokemon games never tell you this blatantly. For instance, had Team Aqua flooded the world, a large amount of people would've been killed, BUT, it's not dark because of how it's presented in the game. Now in Reborn, when PULSE Camerupt is about to make Pyrous Mountain erupt, they flat out tell you the goal is to kill people. The difference is, while Team Aqua and Team Meteor's goals both result in people dying, Team Aqua's goal is presented in a more subtle PG way, whereas Reborn is presented in a blunt PG-13 way. I'd like to remind you, Reborn City is chock full of homeless people. The Agate Circus is full of people forced out of their homes due to the sleep spell. At the end of the day, the official Pokemon series is no where near as dark as reborn due to how it's presented. Now regarding your examples:

Spoiler

 

FR/LG: This is literally what Hypno's do. It's not that dark if its natural behavior unless it tried to flat out murder the girl. 

BW: I won't try to deny that this is dark. But once again, it's presented in a non-dark way. 

BW/BW2: Nightmares inflicted by Darkrai killed her. Darkrai still murdered her, but it's much more tame then reborn. 

BW2: This just isn't dark. Where is it stated anyone died. Our player was able to safely navigate wearing short sleeves and a shirt. Not to mention there were many capable trainers in the city. 

 

 

[Candy]

*Passerby, please ignore*

Wasn't Ash attacked by a flock of spearow instead of pidgeottos?

*Passerby goes away*

Edited December 8, 2017 by Candy

[The Swordsman]

1 hour ago, Sceptilespy said:

BW2: This just isn't dark. Where is it stated anyone died. Our player was able to safely navigate wearing short sleeves and a shirt. Not to mention there were many capable trainers in the city. 

It is presented similar to your Team Aqua example, except the frozen bodies are shown. It even got animated in the Pokemon Generations episode The Frozen World. (Skip to 3:28 to see the aftermath of the attack) Even if they somehow survived being frozen they would experience severe Hypothermia and Frostbite. Our player and Drayden didn't get caught up in the blast.

[Sceptilespy]

1 minute ago, The Swordsman said:

It is presented similar to your Team Aqua example, except the frozen bodies are shown. It even got animated in the Pokemon Generations episode The Frozen World. (Skip to 3:28 to see the aftermath of the attack) Even if they somehow survived being frozen they would experience severe Hypothermia and Frostbite. Our player and Drayden didn't get caught up in the blast.

Once again, I feel like you're overestimating the official Pokemon universe. You know what would happen if they did unthaw and survive from being frozen? They'd act perfectly normal. Because it's a kids game/show. This has happened in the Pokemon anime before, and it will happen again, since kids are too young to understand stuff like hypothermia and frostbite. Also, it's not really presented in a similar manner to my Team Aqua example since Team Plasma never blatantly said they wanted to kill anyone. Once again, the result of this attack would realistically kill people, but they won't tell you that because Pokemon isn't dark. Just now I was watching a kid's superhero show with my baby cousin where the villain made the moon come much closer to Earth. Now realistically, the tides would go crazy, and probably kill people. Now would you call this show dark? I hope not, because it's a kid's show, and it's presented in a funny PG way. Reborn's "darkest" moments aren't presented in a funny PG way at all, and as such, the Pokemon Universe is much less "dark" then Pokemon Reborn. I won't say that Pokemon hasn't had it's dark moments. but nowhere NEAR the extent of Reborn. Please remember that Reborn was literally made to have a darker take on the Pokemon Universe. 

[The Swordsman]

I think you are confused on what I am trying to argue. I am not trying to argue that the official games are as dark or darker than Reborn but that the darker elements that are expanded on by Reborn were already in the franchise. For example Team Galactic, which the goal of Team Meteor is based on, IS a terrorist organization and Chandlure destroying souls is a official part of Pokemon lore. The main Pokemon anime which you are referring to does not accurately represent the world of the games and is noticeably lighter in tone. While other media like the Pokemon Adventures manga have a darker tone. (and that Red was not perfectly healthy after being frozen and as the result of his injuries had to turn down the offer of being the new Virdian Gym Leader)  While on your comment about Neo Plasma, as seki108 has mentioned Ghetsis quite blatantly attacks the player. I also do not find a funny little kid's show to be a fair comparison. As the Pokemon games' tone is more similar to that of Digimon or the original Teen Titans.

[mde2001]

If Reborn was a main series pokemon game, released by Gamefreak, I would absolutely agree with your friend. In many ways Reborn is far more graphic and violent than any main series pokemon game, whether or not they discuss similarly dark themes (albeit more vaguely). However, the difference that your friend is missing is the fact that a game uses the same set of characters as a more child like scenario doesn't mean that it is targeted at the same group of people. All of our download pages and the website in general make it pretty clear that this is a game targeted towards teens/ adults due to its more mature themes. Additionally, even if they had missed this and just downloaded the game, the train bombing scene sets the tone immediately, without being too graphic or scarring itself (as compared to something like the Orphanage or Corey's story arc). For this reason I don't see how Reborn can be seen as immoral, as in the end pokemon themselves are just images and programmed stats and therefore nothing about them can be corrupted for that. The concern would come if the fact that we were using a franchise that has a younger audience would cause them to see things that were too confronting for their age, but I don't see that as a potential occurrence due to the reasons I outlined above. Everyone wants to experience pokemon in their own way, and your friend is perfectly entitled to not enjoy the game, as to some people pokemon is all about lighthearted fun. However, the fact that it isn't their cup of tea shouldn't automatically relegate it to a disgrace to pokemon that doesn't deserve to exist, as in the end if they don't play it it has absolutely no affect on their lives or their enjoyment of more uplifting games.