Argument that Reborn is Immoral?

[Commander]

  On 12/13/2017 at 8:34 PM, F14m3rz said:

No... that's definitely not the case. In most cases (especially with RPGs), it's because of a good story that a game gets so much attention and love from fans in the first place. Otherwise, Monster Girl Quest wouldn't have the following it has now.

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Someone who actually acknowledges that games existence and the story...you're alright in my book. A game with a strong story or a game with fantastic gameplay can often outshine big faults in other areas but it's harder to make a game good or enjoyable with bad gameplay over one with a bad/mediocre story.

 

I honestly think the best way to put it is that these games stand out and a lot of people like them and just put it to rest there. Just because one or the other is the better or best doesn't necessarily mean it's the more enjoyable game ultimately. Reborn isn't the impactful game on the hack/fan-game community as it was before due to the quality of everything rising over the years.

[Deuykos]

  On 12/13/2017 at 9:58 PM, NickCrash said:

PS: The Patreon page is a recent addition. The game was not made to make profit, therefore such allegations are baseless. 

 

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I figured, I just think it's kind of dumb to assume that, just because money's a factor in a game, that the developer only cares about money, when such is more often than not, not the case (as is the case with Reborn, where making money is incidental to making the game itself).

[Norm]

I have to agree with F14m3erz here one the subject. What Reborn gets criticism for isn't its "immoral themes" rather it is the poor direction and execution of those themes. Personally, I think that Reborn is deeply flawed in its overall narrative. In fact, I'm going to "briefly" give my thoughts on some of the cardinal issues with the game's story and characters

 

E.V.I.L

  Reveal hidden contents

Many people believe Reborn is more realisitic and that the villains are competent. On the contrary, I think that it is the opposite. Like the first thing we see Team Meteor do is blow up a train station. Why would they do that? Supposedly it's to stop people from leaving, but that's contrary to what their motive is. If they're trying to cleanse the region, why would the destroy the only avenue for people to leave? Going off of that, many of Team Meteor's antics don't actually further their plan. For example, why were they trying to starve a remote village on a mountain? Those guys have almost nothing to do with the City or the League. Why does Reborn think destroying Apophyll will somehow negatively affect the greater region? Apophyll actively cuts itself off from the city. Why would Solaris try to purify a city that he believes has been sullied by the destructive and repugnant touch of people go out of his way to make the entire region as a whole worse? In one branch of the Tanzan incident, Sirius incapacitates Saphira with his Seviper. Why doesn't he just kill her? The oppurtunity is literally right there! If it is Lin actually orchestrating every event in Team Meteor, how would any of these events somehow get her any closer to Arceus? In my eyes, Meteor is just as, if not more, incompetent as Team Rocket. Now this could be used in an interesting way to show different factions of Team Meteor each with different goals. But Reborn hasn't done this in like 20+ hours of gameplay. When Taka is the only Team Meteor member that understands what he wants, and what actions would lead into what he wants, there is a problem with your evil team

 

Also the Villains themselves are pretty drab in general. Like I can't be the only one who mixes up Sirius and Solaris. Not just because of their frustratingly similar names, but because they're really just evil. These guys are up there with Gen 3 Maxie and Archie levels of generic. Solaris has some stuff in a backstory that is locked behind a rather convoluted sidequest, yet backstories shouldn't be how characters are distinguished. Characters should be able to be distinguished by their personality, which would be expressed in their dialogue and actions. As of right now, Solaris and Sirius are both evil dudes who are both willing to let heads roll when trying to keep order or attain their goal. As of E17 Blake and Fern are both unrepentant jerks who often mock people with l33t slang. Lin is just a generic OP nihilist villain who hates friendship and solidarity (which I will note, can be done well. Mainline Games did it with Cyrus and, to a lesser extent, Lysandre). I forgot about ZEL until I rechecked my post. They have three personalities I guess? They're a scientist? I don't want to talk about Terra. Point is most of these guys don't really have much in the way of personal motivation except that "they're evil", which doesn't really hype me up for the good vs. evil showdown

 

Leaders? I hardly know her!

  Reveal hidden contents

The gym leaders in Reborn are mostly terrible to. Reborn, compared to the mainline games, puts more emphasis on the responsibility of leaders to keep the peace in the region. They're all pretty terrible pics for that job. It can be argued most of the Gym leaders are not emotionally or mentally stable to hold this responsibility. 4 of them came from a mental ward (not to say that this would disqualify them), 2 are terrorists, 3 of them are currently not adults, one is a literal fucking ghost. How did any of these people qualify. Specifically, Shade is a spoopy ghost whose gym is in an abandoned factory and its puzzle consists of watching actual snuff films.  How the hell did he get the job? Dr.Connal often restricts some of the gym leaders from battling. Is there no oversight stopping something like this? The Circus Freaks have their own battle pass system for some reason, why wouldn't this get shut down by the league. No other gym leaders have so much traffic that it interferes with their schedule, not even the 1st and 2nd. Game!Ame is the god damn CHAMPION and decides that it might be time to get off her ass and do something only 13 gyms and about 10 terrorist operations into the game. Also, as salt to the wound, the most of the leaders seem to be incapable of doing things themselves. Like when the orphans get kidnapped. All of them are high-ranking members of the Reborn League, with at least one of them being an Elite Four member. Why didn't they do anything!? Cain did something! The bunch from Onyx Academy only do things when the main character involved comes. Amaria just drags you to a factory because you were there despite the fa

ct she could easily call anyone from the league to help her. Titania apparently sits there having tea with the Meteors at the WTC for 2 badges until the player shows up. I'll give Julia and Florinia a pass for now because they actually were trying to mitigate any error by bringing more than 2 people, even though they could have called literally anyone else other than two novice trainers in for help. Game!Ame says that she had a bad feeling about Corey, so why didn't she investigate that? I still don't want to talk about Terra. The fact that the people whose job is literally to protect the region aren't proactive enough to do it really hurts the suspension of disbelief and makes the good guys just as incompetent as the bad guys, which I guess would even the playing fields. Yet at the same time, watching two lobotomy patients have a heartfelt debate about morality would be drab and foolish.

 

Also on the Titania debacle going on, It is implied in most of the mainline Pokemon games that battles result from the trainer's pokemon defending him/her. That's why Titania has to wait until the battle is done to execute her opponents edge-style. Most pokemon are implied to have powers ranging from angry dog to world-ending Nuke, so 9/10 it's probably more efficient to counter the threat of a Pokemon killing you with more Pokemon. That's why Oak doesn't let you into the tall-grass anyway. Those Rattattas are killer, man. Anyways point is that Darmanitan, Ditto, or really any fully evolved Pokemon would be able to make a stand at Titania's Aegislash, and Given that it would be a 6v1 battle stacked against Titania, it would be pretty realistic if the protagonist stopped her. Alas, the PC is a pokemon protagonist, and those chumps have less conscience and initiative than those two lobotomized debaters from earlier (If you even read that).

 

There's more. Oh is there more. I could go on even longer about how flawed some of the individual characters in Reborn are, or how I think that the Mainline game's writing can often be overlooked, but despite it's many flaws, I still have lots of fun with Reborn and I still think its one of the better fangames out there as there is thought and effort put into it, instead of spitballing crap against a wall instead of seeing what sticks. Insurgence. So for now, I'll give it a rest.

[NickCrash]

May I suggest a TM04 for everyone involved? 

I am not sure whom you address likewise, but I implore you edit your comment. 

 

 

Moreover, I shall not tolerate trash-talking against mah boi Shade. He's the only guy person w/e getting shit done. 

[Deuykos]

  On 12/13/2017 at 10:32 PM, Norm said:

I have to agree with F14m3erz here one the subject. What Reborn gets criticism for isn't its "immoral themes" rather it is the poor direction and execution of those themes. Personally, I think that Reborn is deeply flawed in its overall narrative. In fact, I'm going to "briefly" give my thoughts on some of the cardinal issues with the game's story and characters

 

E.V.I.L

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Many people believe Reborn is more realisitic and that the villains are competent. On the contrary, I think that it is the opposite. Like the first thing we see Team Meteor do is blow up a train station. Why would they do that? Supposedly it's to stop people from leaving, but that's contrary to what their motive is. If they're trying to cleanse the region, why would the destroy the only avenue for people to leave? Going off of that, many of Team Meteor's antics don't actually further their plan. For example, why were they trying to starve a remote village on a mountain? Those guys have almost nothing to do with the City or the League. Why does Reborn think destroying Apophyll will somehow negatively affect the greater region? Apophyll actively cuts itself off from the city. Why would Solaris try to purify a city that he believes has been sullied by the destructive and repugnant touch of people go out of his way to make the entire region as a whole worse? In one branch of the Tanzan incident, Sirius incapacitates Saphira with his Seviper. Why doesn't he just kill her? The oppurtunity is literally right there! If it is Lin actually orchestrating every event in Team Meteor, how would any of these events somehow get her any closer to Arceus? In my eyes, Meteor is just as, if not more, incompetent as Team Rocket. Now this could be used in an interesting way to show different factions of Team Meteor each with different goals. But Reborn hasn't done this in like 20+ hours of gameplay. When Taka is the only Team Meteor member that understands what he wants, and what actions would lead into what he wants, there is a problem with your evil team

 

 

Also the Villains themselves are pretty drab in general. Like I can't be the only one who mixes up Sirius and Solaris. Not just because of their frustratingly similar names, but because they're really just evil. These guys are up there with Gen 3 Maxie and Archie levels of generic. Solaris has some stuff in a backstory that is locked behind a rather convoluted sidequest, yet backstories shouldn't be how characters are distinguished. Characters should be able to be distinguished by their personality, which would be expressed in their dialogue and actions. As of right now, Solaris and Sirius are both evil dudes who are both willing to let heads roll when trying to keep order or attain their goal. As of E17 Blake and Fern are both unrepentant jerks who often mock people with l33t slang. Lin is just a generic OP nihilist villain who hates friendship and solidarity (which I will note, can be done well. Mainline Games did it with Cyrus and, to a lesser extent, Lysandre). I forgot about ZEL until I rechecked my post. They have three personalities I guess? They're a scientist? I don't want to talk about Terra. Point is most of these guys don't really have much in the way of personal motivation except that "they're evil", which doesn't really hype me up for the good vs. evil showdown

 

 

 

Leaders? I hardly know her!

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The gym leaders in Reborn are mostly terrible to. Reborn, compared to the mainline games, puts more emphasis on the responsibility of leaders to keep the peace in the region. They're all pretty terrible pics for that job. It can be argued most of the Gym leaders are not emotionally or mentally stable to hold this responsibility. 4 of them came from a mental ward (not to say that this would disqualify them), 2 are terrorists, 3 of them are currently not adults, one is a literal fucking ghost. How did any of these people qualify. Specifically, Shade is a spoopy ghost whose gym is in an abandoned factory and its puzzle consists of watching actual snuff films.  How the hell did he get the job? Dr.Connal often restricts some of the gym leaders from battling. Is there no oversight stopping something like this? The Circus Freaks have their own battle pass system for some reason, why wouldn't this get shut down by the league. No other gym leaders have so much traffic that it interferes with their schedule, not even the 1st and 2nd. Game!Ame is the god damn CHAMPION and decides that it might be time to get off her ass and do something only 13 gyms and about 10 terrorist operations into the game. Also, as salt to the wound, the most of the leaders seem to be incapable of doing things themselves. Like when the orphans get kidnapped. All of them are high-ranking members of the Reborn League, with at least one of them being an Elite Four member. Why didn't they do anything!? Cain did something! The bunch from Onyx Academy only do things when the main character involved comes. Amaria just drags you to a factory because you were there despite the fa

ct she could easily call anyone from the league to help her. Titania apparently sits there having tea with the Meteors at the WTC for 2 badges until the player shows up. I'll give Julia and Florinia a pass for now because they actually were trying to mitigate any error by bringing more than 2 people, even though they could have called literally anyone else other than two novice trainers in for help. Game!Ame says that she had a bad feeling about Corey, so why didn't she investigate that? I still don't want to talk about Terra. The fact that the people whose job is literally to protect the region aren't proactive enough to do it really hurts the suspension of disbelief and makes the good guys just as incompetent as the bad guys, which I guess would even the playing fields. Yet at the same time, watching two lobotomy patients have a heartfelt debate about morality would be drab and foolish.

 

 

Also on the Titania debacle going on, It is implied in most of the mainline Pokemon games that battles result from the trainer's pokemon defending him/her. That's why Titania has to wait until the battle is done to execute her opponents edge-style. Most pokemon are implied to have powers ranging from angry dog to world-ending Nuke, so 9/10 it's probably more efficient to counter the threat of a Pokemon killing you with more Pokemon. That's why Oak doesn't let you into the tall-grass anyway. Those Rattattas are killer, man. Anyways point is that Darmanitan, Ditto, or really any fully evolved Pokemon would be able to make a stand at Titania's Aegislash, and Given that it would be a 6v1 battle stacked against Titania, it would be pretty realistic if the protagonist stopped her. Alas, the PC is a pokemon protagonist, and those chumps have less conscience and initiative than those two lobotomized debaters from earlier (If you even read that).

 

There's more. Oh is there more. I could go on even longer about how flawed some of the individual characters in Reborn are, or how I think that the Mainline game's writing can often be overlooked, but despite it's many flaws, I still have lots of fun with Reborn and I still think its one of the better fangames out there as there is thought and effort put into it, instead of spitballing crap against a wall instead of seeing what sticks. Insurgence. So for now, I'll give it a rest.

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  Reveal hidden contents

I'm not actually sure why Sirius doesn't just kill her. After all, he is responsible for her parents' death, Heather's mom's death, and Eclipse's death; you'd think he'd be able to kill someone whether or not it's inconvenient to the plot.

 

Though I do have some counter arguments.

I think the reason that things are so convoluted when it comes to Team Meteor is because Lin... is a screwball. She's so nucking futs that rather than systematically ensuring that people leave like Solaris would've done, she'd rather just kill people and sew discord into the region for the specific purpose of getting the keys, awakening Arceus, and making a new world.

While it's true that Blake and Fern are two irredeemable straw men, the latter actually does have a pinch of character development in E15. It turns out that if you defeat Solaris' Garchomp at Pyrous Mountain, it affects the bit at the Celestinine Cascade where you fight off Meteor Grunts to protect Amaria. So in the second battle or so, instead of Florinia being the one to accompany you, it's Julia, and after that battle's concluded, Fern reveals why he does the things he does and acts the way he does; it's because ever since Florinia shut herself away from the world, he didn't get any attention as a kid. So, he's basically defaulted to getting any attention he can, even if it's bad attention (I'm kinda summarizing here, there's a bit more to it than I'm letting on).

I will talk about T3RR4. While it's true she was really annoying the first time through, the second time I played through the game... I just laughed at all the absurdity. Not to mention, Terra's parents (and Cal if you let Saphira get kidnapped) let on that there's a connection between her and Lin. One person on this site even theorized about the possibility that the Lin we see now is actually a hologram of some sort created by Terra, while there's a REAL Lin running around somewhere (Adrian did mention a little girl climbing the wall out of the Citae Arc d'Astrae, after all).

As for kids and the like being Gym Leaders / Elite Four members, Reborn's system works in such a way that:
A. They can be recommended by current Gym Leaders / Elite Four members.

B. They can inherit the position from their parents.

C. In order to obtain the roles for the reasons listed above, they need to pass a test of some kind.

So Heather's an E4 member through her dead mom, Saphira's a Gym Leader through her dead dad, Charlotte's a Gym Leader through her dead mom, and Noel and Anna are a gym leader and E4 member respectively through Shade.

As for Game!Ame being kinda incompetent at her job, it has to do with the fact that Real!Ame didn't want a persona running all over the game, so she made her as low-key as possible. I think that's why she died in the end, and Adrienn basically took over her role; because xe can actually inspire people to do things when the need arises.

 

But yeah, other than that, I basically agree with you (except I kinda tolerate the villains more than I do the heroes).

 

[NickCrash]

To be fair, Game!Ame allowed quite a bit of nepotism to thrive in her city, which is... quite immoral. (yay back on topic)

[Jess]

  On 12/13/2017 at 11:35 AM, Commander said:

a good story is the least important part of a game

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I consider this to be very subjective, since it is the exact opposite to me. If a story is great, I can get over gameplay flaws out of anxiety to see what happens. I know there are other important things, like graphics, gameplay, scene connection and plot flow, etc. but I consider a strong story to be the very thing that keeps me on the edge of my seat. Plus, most Pokemon games have some standards when it comes to gameplay/graphics, so, since Reborn is equal/slightly above canon games of a certain Gen/era (which happened to be my favourite), I am more than OK.

 

Also, I agree 100% with you, the fact that the bar is being set higher and higher for fangames is incredibly important and Reborn has greatly contributed to it. We can have many hours of great chat about the flaws in Reborn and Rejuvenation too. And doing this is just a step in the process of eventually getting even better fangames! However, acknowledging what they have offered us is also important. And in my opinion, they are far better than any canon pokemon games.

[Wolfox]

  On 12/14/2017 at 10:22 PM, Jess said:

I consider this to be very subjective, since it is the exact opposite to me. If a story is great, I can get over gameplay flaws out of anxiety to see what happens. I know there are other important things, like graphics, gameplay, scene connection and plot flow, etc. but I consider a strong story to be the very thing that keeps me on the edge of my seat. Plus, most Pokemon games have some standards when it comes to gameplay/graphics, so, since Reborn is equal/slightly above canon games of a certain Gen/era (which happened to be my favourite), I am more than OK.

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My opinion on how important story is really simple:

Don't half-ass it or leave the game unfinished while you claim it's finished. main target here is Insurgence, which has a certain amount of bugs that would actually give Ame nightmares. this gets priority over the rest cuz if you half-ass it the rest is gonna feel much weaker in general.

Gameplay comes first because if that doesn't function well it can take away from everything else.

Second, comes balance. A nice example I like to use is an older version of desolation. where the only thing you could get for the first gym leader was bibarrel, and even that was not a great way of beating said leader. another nice example is insurgence and the great lack of balance that game has.

the story comes third. once the gameplay and balance are set up in a way that works, then the story will have to be balanced around that. if done wrong we get my earlier desolation example (Note, I know that that has been fixed. it being fixed, however, does not change the fact that it was balance done wrong).

graphics: really, just make the graphics for the game. the graphics reborn uses really fit the game if you ask me for one. however, there are people who would rather see Reborn have Insurgence graphics.

 

There is, however, one thing I really don't put too much value on. that is gimmicks. if a game has a gimmick that makes the game fun, count me in. but it doesn't mean that it has to be in everything or be essential to other games of the same series/genre. my favorite example of this is Pokémon walking behind you from HGSS. It was a fun gimmick to set that game apart from the others in the series but other than that it's really nothing. so when I see people demanding it in the new main series games or when fangames just shoehorn it in. Yes, it's a fun gimmick when used well. but that last part of it, the "used well" part is something I rarely really see in the fangames that use it.