***SPOILERS*** Post Episode 17

[Seehan]

Spoiler

Is there anything I can do to help Ameria at all? She was there for us way back the the start of the game and I truly hate to see her like this. Can we support her in any way or is she just bound to her fate?

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Seehan
trying to hide text

[bloo123]

Spoiler

forgive me for sounding ignorant but she's acting like bennett in terms of one way irrational love, taka by playing the victim and is an even worse yandere than titania (seriously wtf is up with this attitude of killing anybody you don't like why can't we just talk it out -_-). idk how she got to be so dependent on her in the first place which is beyond me in a world with pokemon but i don't think we can help her without knowing more of her history and why she's like that in the first place. also depends on your relationship status with her i imagine so probably will see in the future.

 

[PokeFailure]

Spoiler

Depending on your relationship stats you'll probably be able to help her in E18 or E19. Amaria seems likely to end up dead no matter what your relationship with her though... Hopefully you can help her realize she doesn't need Titania at some point but AME has a death quota to fill every episode and Amaria seems like one of the characters to fill that slot for E18.

 

[Seehan]

Thanks! TT

[Shia]

Amaria dying is kind of farfetched, since she didn't actually die in the Reborn League, only got an amnesia. If so, she might at least get some sort of Disney Death, where she's thought to have died but actually lived. Possibly getting amnesia again.

 

It's clear though that there's definitely something wrong with her. So for that she at least needs some help, yes. Should the player character be that person? Possibly not. I mean, as a player character, I'd be pretty off put by what Amaria did. That tends to happen when you try to kill someone. In fact, I think Amaria, along with Solaris, are the only two people to have directly tried murdering the player character? Even Sirius or Lin hasn't went there.

 

Yet.

[bloo123]

Spoiler

shade foreshadowed two deaths of the four which were amaria corey kiki and lin i think? 2 are for sure dead and the other two fake died when amy tried to commit suicide and titania slashing her to pieces but came back to life (though i don't know if that was the instance shown in the moniter). not sure if amy will die but its a possibility, also she's much nicer and doesn't try to drown you if you do the zekrom route.

 

[Zane0144]

Spoiler

I'm no expert by any means but people I've known with the same kind of feelings as Amaria are often nice people. The beginning of the game was not an act by any means. 

 

The only facade Amaria has put up is her confidence. She is constantly doubting herself and relies on the people she trusts to make sure she is doing the right thing. And when she feels insecure. She feels insecure about everything. Titania could truly love her with all of her heart but Ama would still feel like Tania hates her. She is thinking, why would Titania ever love someone who acts like this. The fact that this is true undoubtedly makes this all the worse. She ends up pushing away the people that are helping her all the more because she sees herself as a burden to them.

 

They are both selfish. Titania should realize she is not all there is between Amaria and death. Her pretending only makes things worse and validates her insecurity. She acts like leaving Ama is what's best for herself. But really it would be a lot easier to leave if Titania realized that leaving IS what is best for Ama too. At least as a lover. They are great friends and should stay that way but this relationship is bad for both of them and Titania is too selfish to see the detriment to anyone but herself.

 

[Egzample]

At the end of Zekrom path, it seems like Amaria realised how toxic this whole drama caused by her is, yet she chooses to keep sucking vitality and happines from Titania, only because she feels better that way, she doesn't care about others at all. Titania chooses to play her role for the sake of keeping Dramaria alive, because in fact she is a good gurl. Rough, but good. #teamTitania

 

@bloo123

Quote

(seriously wtf is up with this attitude of killing anybody you don't like why can't we just talk it out -_-)

I'm cool with reducing the number of Meteor's - come on, those guys are behind the genocide of at last 3 districts in Reborn, they tried to destroy Apophyl etc. - there is very little that diplomacy can do here, you can't really talk them down, sometimes you just have to answer with power.

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by example
Whoops, hehe - interesting what we sometimes have under ctrl + V, instead of the quote I wanted to pase :D

[Maltor]

Spoiler

That bitch tried to drown me because I arrived a little bit earlier than Titania (who was probably just looking at some flowers at the side of the road) and misread the whole situation.

 

I could've dealt with her anger, cursing, a little shove, getting punched on the face, getting my eye gouged out (maybe not?). But attempted murder is where I draw the line.

 

By the way, how do you play the Zekrom route? Do you just choose to fight Taka in WTP, or are there other choices involved?

 

[Gh0stStark]

When it comes to people who deal with depression, it's pretty easy to picture them as sad puppies. They need lots of the purest kind of love and velvet gloved care. That view is sort of right, for a few of them and even then,  that treatment should only be given at the right time, because some of these people have no idea how to react to displays of genuine care, understanding and kindness. The line that separates a depressed and suicidal individual from a selfish, sadistic and callous sociopath is very thin, almost entirely proverbial. The only difference is how they respond to potential triggers.  

 

Spoiler

When it comes to Amaria, there's one very interesting thing that escaped the few topics regarding her ep 17 persona: her trainer title changes.

 

In the Ideals, aka Zekrom's path, she is presented as Flotsam Amaria. A flotsam is the wreckage of a nautic vessel that hasn't yet sunk. It still floats, but for all ends and purposes it will never sail again. In that path, she is broken as a person (a wreckage), but by taking advantage of Titania's compassion, she can still put up a superficial image of being happy and nice (hasn't completely sunk in her depression), but her life hasn't gone anywhere(and maybe never will). Just as some  wrecked ship still clings to it's most basic function - floating, for the sake of keeping herself alive Amaria still clings to Titania.

 

Zekrom's path denotes that there's very little hope for Amaria to defeat both her suicidal mindset and dependance on Titania. For the sake of her suicide, all she is waiting for is Titania to leave her life so that she, Amaria, can finally go under. However, Amaria's selfishness and emotional blackmailing may very well keep Titania from leaving, and Amaria gives the impression of being well aware of that, and not above resorting to those methods to get what she wants.

Whatever the case she's in a perfert comfort zone, from which she has no intentions of leaving, even for her own good. If Titania leaves, she can finally kill herself; if Titania stays, she can keep clinging to her dellusional romantic life.

 

The Truth, Reshiram's path, identify Amaria as Jetsam Amaria. Jetsam, are goods discarded from a ship that's at risk of sinking. Said goods might go under, or float aimlessly until someone or no one claims them. In this scenario, the vessel in question is Titania's life. She's already had enough, and Amaria's attempt against the player's life was the last straw.

She, Titania, discards Amaria completely to keep her own life from sinking. For Titania, wherever Amaria ends up or whatever she does is of no consequence to her anymore. She finally did what she once tried to convince Taka to do. At that point, I was very pleased with Titania's character, because for all her rudeness and hypocrisy, she proved herself to be the one who was really deserving of compassion and understanding. For the sake of helping someone dear to her, Titania placed herself on the losing side for who knows how long and at the end she finally realized that it didn't make a difference. That it wasn't worth making a difference.

 

The truth path gives a darker but perhaps broader direction to Amaria's character, she's selfish, suicidal and  homicidal. But she finally faced the breakdown that she needed  to suffer if she ever really wanted to try and steer her life towards a brighter horizon. From being thrown away from the ship it risked sinking, the jetsam can now sink or float anywhere. I could still see those things happening in the ideals path tho.

 

One thing that can't understand for the life of me and I'd like someone to clarify, is why Amaria tried to drown us? I don't know if I jumped some dialogue or if I wasn't paying attention but I can't understand why she did it.

 

 

 

 

[Maqqy]

Spoiler

In all honesty I think Amaria is too far gone for helping. She's hopelessly depressed, a suicidal wreck (tried to kill herself 18 times like) and is willing to trap someone in a phony, hollow relationship just for the sake of her own. Sis Amaria did try to kill us, but I think that doesn't make her a bad person. The lines were crossed yes but that's what happens when an ultimate suicidal person has gotten into a very desperate situation. So I feel like there would be a redemption for her in the future, both her and Titania. Atleast I think in the Reshiram path, since both are now free from each other.

 

[2awk4u]

@Gh0stStark she tries to drown us in order to get back at us for "spilling the beans", i didn't read the diary or tell Amaria what's going on because i didn't know. so her trying to drown me and then nonchalantly act like i never was there made me dislike Amaria a lot more than Titania. I think she'll turn to team meteor, reshiram path Amaria has lost everything, I think her dying is too obvious. Her joining team meteor in order to change her current shattered mess and mold into her perfect world where she's free from the other side of her. She'll either die because of Titania pushing her like in the vision shade showed us or live cuz we messed up.

[Seehan]

Spoiler

Geez y'all took her trying to drown us way too personally. The entire time being trapped in that room, all I felt was sad that it was ironically she who felt so trapped, to the point where she needed to take it out on someone. Think back to the beginning of the game, when you encounter her in front of the factory. She was ready to go in alone, against all those Meteors, and she would have had we not shown up and gone with her. She wasn't doing it for glory, or to make herself look better - she was doing it to protect the city and people she loved. The first time we battled side by side, Deliverance was the most reliable and powerful ally we'd ever had, and continues to be the strongest allied Pokemon we've fought alongside. She was a character we looked up to, and in a way idolized and wanted to become like - to see her like this, so crushed beneath the weight and burdens of her mental illness, is only sad to me. There was no anger in me when she tried to drown us; only sadness that I could do nothing at all to help her, this woman who was also my hero. I don't blame Titania for finally leaving - she had done all she could and it wasn't ever enough. Perhaps in the future we will have the chance to do something instead, but likely we will not, and Amaria will die a cold and lonely death, not as a hero, but as "a selfish bitch who deserved what she got", as she is seen by most of those who commented above.

 

[Shia]

I'm sorry but, whether Amaria was depressed or not, she DID genuinely try to kill you. I'm pretty sure everyone would react extremely defensively when their life is at stake. Especially when they feel that they haven't done anything to that person to warrant that kind of reaction. Looking at it in a completely unbiased perspective, regardless of Amaria's mental conditions, she could be held accountable for her actions. Does she need help? Oh, she DEFINITELY does. Does that change the fact that she tried to drown the player? No, it does not. 

 

I don't think Amaria is irredeemable or as a "selfish ***** who deserved what she got". It's crystal clear that Amaria is a person with many issues, so romanticizing or extremizing her is a really bad way of handling it. In fact, seeing her as this amazing, strong heroine just feeds into the self-deprecating issues she's feeling with herself. Because again, it's very clear that she's NOT that heroine. She's NOT that villain either. She's just a person with many issues. Not an evil murderess nor a perfect heroine. Just a burdened person, like everyone else. Amaria going through such a development is honestly not far off from how characters are in Reborn. If there's anything that's been stated a million times now in Reborn, no one is completely good or evil. Just all shades of gray. And Amaria's just like that.

[2awk4u]

@Seehan I understand what Amaria is going through especially as someone who did suffer from depression and still suffers social anxiety; however, do you understand her motive of why she tries to kill us? She wants to drown us because of a truth that she knew about and tried to cover up, she wanted to keep up the facade, she wanted to keep Titania with her despite the lack of feelings. all in all, She didn't care about anything other than herself in that moment. She didn't care that we're probably the only trainer that can be champion or that we have been there fighting with her and for reborn for the start, She didn't even think about the consequences of her actions. She just wanted her peace at the expense of basically everyone's future. So yeah Amaria's a selfish bitch, but not only for trying to kill us but for the sheer disregard  of the consequences and the need to still be a bitch by choosing the opposite battle format that you select. I feel sorry for her, and her recent actions make her look pretty bad;however, her future actions are what may or may not seal the deal.

[Silver Boy]

I think Amaria need professional help (not from Dr. Connal). When people in depression, they very emotionally vulnerable. Or she will be able to overcome this yourself. Or she will sacrifice himself for all. Looking at her condition, Amaria easily can do this. Who knows. 

[DarkMasterKendall]

@Gh0stStark something you said there caught my attention.

Spoiler

"Jetsam, are goods discarded from a ship that's at risk of sinking. Said goods might go under, or float aimlessly until someone or no one claims them."

The sentence give to us as the preview for episode 18 was something like: "I will always love you more than anyone, or she, ever could."

This might sound crazy but, what if in the reshiram route, since Lin knows Amaria but not the other way around, Amaria does try to kill herself but she is saved by Lin, who hides her true identity and tricks Amaria into falling in love with her. Then in the very climax of the game Lin is able to obtain 3 of the 4 keys and the last one somehow is with Titania, then she treathens killing Amaria if Titania doesnt hand her the last key. Then Tania, in a moment of weakness accepts the exchange, but Lin betrays her killing Amaria either way.

And for that to make sense, something with the two lovey doveys will have to happen in the Zekron route, maybe Amy starts her drama right when Tania has to leave to help everybody, say stuff like "Its your live or everyone's, I know which Im picking"

As I said, completely crazy, but no one seemed to mention the preview

(or maybe hardy has a secret lover, aya finds out, runs away in fury, does something really dumb, and gets herself killed with those being her last words that she has difficulty on pronoucing, hence the faded text)

 

[Alaris]

On 17/12/2017 at 10:02 PM, Gh0stStark said:

When it comes to people who deal with depression, it's pretty easy to picture them as sad puppies. They need lots of the purest kind of love and velvet gloved care. That view is sort of right, for a few of them and even then,  that treatment should only be given at the right time, because some of these people have no idea how to react to displays of genuine care, understanding and kindness. The line that separates a depressed and suicidal individual from a selfish, sadistic and callous sociopath is very thin, almost entirely proverbial. The only difference is how they respond to potential triggers.  

 

  Hide contents

When it comes to Amaria, there's one very interesting thing that escaped the few topics regarding her ep 17 persona: her trainer title changes.

 

In the Ideals, aka Zekrom's path, she is presented as Flotsam Amaria. A flotsam is the wreckage of a nautic vessel that hasn't yet sunk. It still floats, but for all ends and purposes it will never sail again. In that path, she is broken as a person (a wreckage), but by taking advantage of Titania's compassion, she can still put up a superficial image of being happy and nice (hasn't completely sunk in her depression), but her life hasn't gone anywhere(and maybe never will). Just as some  wrecked ship still clings to it's most basic function - floating, for the sake of keeping herself alive Amaria still clings to Titania.

 

Zekrom's path denotes that there's very little hope for Amaria to defeat both her suicidal mindset and dependance on Titania. For the sake of her suicide, all she is waiting for is Titania to leave her life so that she, Amaria, can finally go under. However, Amaria's selfishness and emotional blackmailing may very well keep Titania from leaving, and Amaria gives the impression of being well aware of that, and not above resorting to those methods to get what she wants.

Whatever the case she's in a perfert comfort zone, from which she has no intentions of leaving, even for her own good. If Titania leaves, she can finally kill herself; if Titania stays, she can keep clinging to her dellusional romantic life.

 

The Truth, Reshiram's path, identify Amaria as Jetsam Amaria. Jetsam, are goods discarded from a ship that's at risk of sinking. Said goods might go under, or float aimlessly until someone or no one claims them. In this scenario, the vessel in question is Titania's life. She's already had enough, and Amaria's attempt against the player's life was the last straw.

She, Titania, discards Amaria completely to keep her own life from sinking. For Titania, wherever Amaria ends up or whatever she does is of no consequence to her anymore. She finally did what she once tried to convince Taka to do. At that point, I was very pleased with Titania's character, because for all her rudeness and hypocrisy, she proved herself to be the one who was really deserving of compassion and understanding. For the sake of helping someone dear to her, Titania placed herself on the losing side for who knows how long and at the end she finally realized that it didn't make a difference. That it wasn't worth making a difference.

 

The truth path gives a darker but perhaps broader direction to Amaria's character, she's selfish, suicidal and  homicidal. But she finally faced the breakdown that she needed  to suffer if she ever really wanted to try and steer her life towards a brighter horizon. From being thrown away from the ship it risked sinking, the jetsam can now sink or float anywhere. I could still see those things happening in the ideals path tho.

 

One thing that can't understand for the life of me and I'd like someone to clarify, is why Amaria tried to drown us? I don't know if I jumped some dialogue or if I wasn't paying attention but I can't understand why she did it.

 

 

 

 

 

To me, this is a flawless explanation.

 

I can somewhat relate to Amaria (not to that extent) and I see enough reasons for her to do whatever it's needed to cling on Tania. In her view, the player can knock some sense into Tania and ruin her "perfect world" (even though she knows Tania's love is fake, it's the only thing she wants to live for). So her visceral response is to prevent the player from contacting Tania, and the best way to make sure is to erase you. No one would know... those meteors could have killed the player anytime, we already know how ruthless they may be. If Tania hadn't come, you would have drown there and nobody would ever know.

 

What happens in the Zekrom path, from what I can infer, is that Amy's dream goes on. However, the player is as much as an obstacle for her as in the Reshiram path, the only difference is that Amaria hasn't had the chance to kill you. Unless something changes (i.e. Amy sees you as an indispensable element to keep Tania with her), she is probably going to try and kill the player in ep. 18 or 19.

[Silver Boy]

Wooah, i don't think that Amaria basically can kill, espeсially main hero. She just confused and looking for the meaning of life. But this can not be thrown away. Maybe after all, her psyche is damaged. It's only one reason for Amy may try to kill main hero. Even if this happened, we can protect yourself.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Silver Boy

[andracass]

Oh, Amaria...

Spoiler

So... I've got a lot of thoughts on this. 

First, I'm really hating the attempts to ascribe some of some kind of mental disorder to her. That's unfair- it draws certain lines between things she's done and then makes unnecessary assumptions about them. If a disorder helps add personal clarity to her behavior, fine- but that doesn't make it a thing that she actually has. 

Amaria is incredibly good at what she does, but her life isn't fulfilling. She's dating Titania, who seems to have a pretty solid grasp on her own life.

The relationship is hopelessly asymmetrical; Titania is something that Amaria wants to be, but I can't see anything in Amaria that Titania wants. In the Reshiram route, the relationship is pushed over the edge when Amaria tries to drown you.

A lot of people are hung up on the attempted drowning. If you're ever in lifeguard training, you're taught that people who are drowning might pull you (the person saving them) under in order to save themselves. I don't blame her, and am disappointed that I didn't have anything better to keep her afloat. 

Regardless of the path, Amaria is drifting, and I'm worried about what's coming to save her.

 

[Nyarth]

@Silver Boy (About the professional help comment)

Interestingly enough, Sigmund would actually be perfect for treating Amaria. ECT is used to temporary offset severe depression, which is what Amaria is suffering through.

 

Spoiler

Anyways, I have the feeling that her fate in the Reshiram route will remain completely vague or unresolved, or she’ll come back as a completely different person.

 

Why would her fate be unresolved rather than it being confirmed to be suicide/whatever death? Because if she dies, our badge is invalidated again and there isn’t a Water Reserve Leader. It’s also too late to even introduce a brand new character entirely at this point...hopefully.

 

So her coming back as a new person. The most likely thing for that is she joins Team Meteor, which everyone has been discussing. She would do that out of spite towards us, or Lin could manipulate her to her side. 

 

The Zekrom divergence is a pretty big one though. She’s still around in that one and active, so her vanishing in the Reshiram route or face-turn is going to have massive effect on a future episode. If she’s involved in anything later on in the Zekrom route, the Reshiram one would probably have to be so altered it’s a brand new episode on its own, which is just insane...but surprisingly not too unlogical.

 

[Alaris]

3 hours ago, Nyarth said:

@Silver Boy (About the professional help comment)

Interestingly enough, Sigmund would actually be perfect for treating Amaria. ECT is used to temporary offset severe depression, which is what Amaria is suffering through.

 

  Hide contents

Anyways, I have the feeling that her fate in the Reshiram route will remain completely vague or unresolved, or she’ll come back as a completely different person.

 

Why would her fate be unresolved rather than it being confirmed to be suicide/whatever death? Because if she dies, our badge is invalidated again and there isn’t a Water Reserve Leader. It’s also too late to even introduce a brand new character entirely at this point...hopefully.

 

So her coming back as a new person. The most likely thing for that is she joins Team Meteor, which everyone has been discussing. She would do that out of spite towards us, or Lin could manipulate her to her side. 

 

The Zekrom divergence is a pretty big one though. She’s still around in that one and active, so her vanishing in the Reshiram route or face-turn is going to have massive effect on a future episode. If she’s involved in anything later on in the Zekrom route, the Reshiram one would probably have to be so altered it’s a brand new episode on its own, which is just insane...but surprisingly not too unlogical.

 

 

She can die. The badge would be invalidated if she died before giving it to us (Corey, Kiki...). But now we have it.

[2awk4u]

@Alaris yeah the badge won't be invalidated but I feel like reshiram path Amaria is gonna join team meteor, there's nothing stopping her and while she is battling her own problems and demons, I think we've seen that Amaria would much rather not confront those issues and just stay in her nice world, but instead of committing suicide she gets recruited by Lin to join team meteor in order to see a new world where she can be happy.

[Imperial]

Spoiler

 

Many people say that Amaria was aware of Titania faking love, but I think this discovery is actually recent. Had she known previously, do you think she would have tried to hard to know what we were hiding about the diary ? Or that she would have looked so surprised when reading it ? No, she would have insisted and tried to prevent the truth to come to the light. That's probably why she can't fake strength anymore and is so confused in both paths, she begins to understand. In the Reshiram path (that I haven't played), she apparently feels that Titania can't fake anymore and panics. In the Zekrom path, Titania is still there with her, so Amaria is lost, sad, but she can still cling to Titania for some time.

 

Actually, I personally lived a similar situation. I was in love with my best friend, but she didn't feel the same. I had never been that close to someone, and I think it was the same for her, but still she felt no romantic love for me. I remember our exchanges of messages late in the night, while we where already hald asleep. It felt like we were talking directly to each other' soul... Being so close to someone you love, without this love being reciprocal was a torture, and I was a bit like Amaria at this time. Far less desperate than her and not suicidal, but still quite similar. Maybe a bit like Bennett too, though far less creepy or blind to how she could feel. So I decided to take some distance from her (as much as possible since we were classmates), hoping being farther from the sun would burn less. But I still missed her, and she missed me too. So I played a bit on that, and she choose to date me. But it didn't take me long to feel something was wrong. So I talked to her, already knowing how it would end. She tried to love me, a romantic love, but couldn't. The truth being said, she broke up. I didn't try to stop her. As I said, I already expected this end and knew it was for the best. Keeping her with me (had she accepted which was extremely unlikely now) would just hurt us more. This was really a great birthday... All this to say, I think I know how Amaria feels, that feeling that you're drowning and are powerless against that. And yet, strangely, taking some pleasure in this pain, like you get so used to it that the pain is a part of you.

 

I don't really know what will happen in the Reshiram path. Maybe she'll commit suicide, maybe she'll join team Meteor. But in the Zekrom path, I think she may set Titania free herself. Now she knows Titania doesn't love her, but since Titania is still there she has time to accept it, to gather her strength, and free the woman she loves. She's so lost now that she'll probably need help, the player's choices will probably have an impact on this, but I really think Amaria can still be saved, or rather that she can save herself and stop being a weight to everyone.

 

 

[2awk4u]

Amaria mentioned noticing Titania's face of disdain whenever they kissed, she stated this either right before she attempts to drown you or when you actually get to challenge her @Imperial