Types Hurt & Heal (BUG TYPE WINS with 8 HP)

[J-Awesome_One]

Noooooooooooooooooo! :’( -sigh- ohh well. Runner up will have to be the next best thing. Haha. Congrats bug!

[Jess]

1 minute ago, Awesome_One said:

Noooooooooooooooooo! :’( -sigh- ohh well. Runner up will have to be the next best thing. Haha. Congrats bug!

My fav two types on top though... It feels good  

[Azeria]

Well fuck.

 

At least it's Poison in the top 2. I can live with that.

[seki108]

Oh well.  Good game everyone.  At least my third(??) choice won (with my second getting third place).

[Personthing]

Ayyy nice bug wins!

[Ojama Yellow]

my sole regret is not being here earlier for the types that needed me, and not taking out ice when I had the chance. good night, sweet prince muk. may you rest easy.

 

at the very least the type that won isnt a shitty one like ice or fairy. it also gets brownie points for being an atlantis type which is very important.

7 hours ago, Jess said:

Besides, people used it in first place to kill Fairy. They based it on amazing argument, such as "slay the pixies", "pixies are OP and unbalanced", etc. And only a few people (Hycrox and Azeria) were actually providing solid arguments about why they disliked the type and/or considered it OP.

ive read through your entire post, and quite frankly the only thing I can think of that I directly 100% disagree with is this sentence. or these sentences, w/e. if people say 'fuck fairies', a decision which I support by the way wait who said that they shouldnt necessarily have to defend their opinion. not everyone may see them in the same light as you do- I personally cant see fairy as anything else than a huge pile of steaming hot shit, but you cant spell opinions without op.

 

that being said, SLAY THE PIXIES

 

please be aware that most of what I posted here is a joke barring that you shouldnt force people to defend opinions in a way that you see as being valid in a friggin forum game. I dont want to look into this topic sometime later and see that I have shit to deal with.

[Anstane]

I am disappointed in the outcome. While I am glad that my favorite type made top three, I am genuinely annoyed that my least favorite type ended up top two. Like, I still don't understand why Poison is so popular. Aesthetically ugly, annoying to fight due to being so stall-centered...and no, stuff like Salazzle and Toxicroak don't anywhere near make up for it.

 

At least Bug is a type I can somewhat tolerate being the winner, so whatever.

[J-Awesome_One]

5 minutes ago, Anstane said:

I am disappointed in the outcome. While I am glad that my favorite type made top three, I am genuinely annoyed that my least favorite type ended up top two. Like, I still don't understand why Poison is so popular. Aesthetically ugly, annoying to fight due to being so stall-centered...and no, stuff like Salazzle and Toxicroak don't anywhere near make up for it.

 

At least Bug is a type I can somewhat tolerate being the winner, so whatever.

Hey! Don’t insult my Arbok & Weezing! They have done nothing to you! Haha.

[Ojama Yellow]

17 minutes ago, Anstane said:

I am disappointed in the outcome. While I am glad that my favorite type made top three, I am genuinely annoyed that my least favorite type ended up top two. Like, I still don't understand why Poison is so popular. Aesthetically ugly, annoying to fight due to being so stall-centered...and no, stuff like Salazzle and Toxicroak don't anywhere near make up for it.

 

At least Bug is a type I can somewhat tolerate being the winner, so whatever.

I like poison specifically for the reason that its very tanky/bulky. venusaur, weezing, muk-alola, tentacruel, and yes, of course dusty, are just a few favorites of mine. furthermore, I really like the offensive presence of some, such as dragalge, salazzle, nidoking, crobat, mega beedrill, gengar, muk-alola (again) and to a lesser extent scolipede and roserade. not to mention that unlike you, I find poison to be one of the most aesthetically pleasing types in existence, probably only second to normal.

 

the fact that the amount of poison-type pokemon I dislike can be counted on one hand probably also has something to do with it. I can think of the mareanie line (even I have standards), nihilego, victreebel and maybe the trubbish and spinarak lines. mostly from a design point of view, except ariados and victreebel have been pretty shitty for me so far ingame, and toxapex is just disgusting.

 

ive used maybe 75% of the entire poison-type roster in nuzlockes so far, and a solid two of those disappointed me. those two are ariados and victreebel. the others, including venusaur, vileplume, weezing, muk-alola, tentacruel, crobat, scolipede, amoonguss, swalot, roserade, toxicroak, drapion, venomoth, beedrill, dustox, gengar, arbok, nidoking and nidoqueen, have all done their respective jobs in an absolutely stellar fashion for me, making poison one of the most reliable types ive ever used to date. that, combined with the fact that I find a lot of poison types very interesting-looking, should explain why I like poison-type pokemon overall.

 

mind, im not trying to say that youre wrong for saying poison isnt cool. im just listing the reasons why I very much like poison a lot.

[Wolfox]

1 hour ago, Anstane said:

I am disappointed in the outcome. While I am glad that my favorite type made top three, I am genuinely annoyed that my least favorite type ended up top two. Like, I still don't understand why Poison is so popular. Aesthetically ugly, annoying to fight due to being so stall-centered...and no, stuff like Salazzle and Toxicroak don't anywhere near make up for it.

 

At least Bug is a type I can somewhat tolerate being the winner, so whatever.

and the funny thing is, poison is probably only the third most stally type in the entire game (take a wild guess to numbers 1 and 2). the only stall related thing poison has over 1 and 2 is simply that they can't get poisoned (unless salazzle). other than that it's not that great for defense since most secondary types only hurt its resistance pool.

 

And here's something nice for the fairy haters. poison is pretty much fairy, with the minor exception that it resists more and it a bit less in offense. but since most complaints about fairy have been because of how defensive it is that should not make too much of an impact.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

"Oh, but fairy is still unbalanced." Tell me right now, of all the types that have been unbalanced in the past, is fairy that bad? Is it as bad as gen 5 Dragons or gen 1 psychic?

[Anstane]

1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

And here's something nice for the fairy haters. poison is pretty much fairy, with the minor exception that it resists more and it a bit less in offense. but since most complaints about fairy have been because of how defensive it is that should not make too much of an impact.

  Hide contents

 

  Hide contents

 

 

"Oh, but fairy is still unbalanced." Tell me right now, of all the types that have been unbalanced in the past, is fairy that bad? Is it as bad as gen 5 Dragons or gen 1 psychic?

The difference being that Ground - and EQ - is basically the most common coverage in the entire game while you'll struggle to see Mons run Poison/Steel moves outside of STAB.

[Zargerth]

Just now, Anstane said:

The difference being that Ground - and EQ - is basically the most common coverage in the entire game while you'll struggle to see Mons run Poison/Steel moves outside of STAB.

Iron Head, Poison Jab and Gunk Shot are pretty common at least in the sense that several mons can learn at least one of those moves.

 

Sort of off-topic and ironic for me to say, but looks like we need Hurt & Heal: Feelings edition.

[Jess]

@Dorcas on the perspective you explained, I agree, we should all lighten up and joke around in such a game, it's about enjoying it anyways. I just couldn't believe that I got blamed for playing "immorally" for cooperating with others and inviting my friends to vote and help . It was quite unexpected and frankly, quite ridiculous. 

[Wolfox]

6 minutes ago, Anstane said:

The difference being that Ground - and EQ - is basically the most common coverage in the entire game while you'll struggle to see Mons run Poison/Steel moves outside of STAB.

true, yet steel is one of the most commonly ran types simply because it's the most defensive off all types. And to say fairies have a reliable way of dealing with steel is like saying Ice has reliable ways of dealing with fire (spoiler alert, it doesn't).

[Walpurgis]

15 minutes ago, Anstane said:

The difference being that Ground - and EQ - is basically the most common coverage in the entire game while you'll struggle to see Mons run Poison/Steel moves outside of STAB.

A move of one of the best offensive types in the game that has 100 bp and 100% accuracy, no negative effects and a very wide and questionable distribution. Heh, balance.

[Anstane]

26 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

true, yet steel is one of the most commonly ran types simply because it's the most defensive off all types. And to say fairies have a reliable way of dealing with steel is like saying Ice has reliable ways of dealing with fire (spoiler alert, it doesn't).

That's not exactly a good comparison, considering Ice gets Walrein which is a pretty solid Fire counter. A better comparison would be Ice vs Steel (More specifically, Ice vs Scizor.) And yeah, I kind of consider Steel the "Fun Police" type as it's basically "If you don't run a number of Steel answers, you will lose to Steel over, over and over again."

[Ojama Yellow]

33 minutes ago, Zargerth said:

Sort of off-topic and ironic for me to say, but looks like we need Hurt & Heal: Feelings edition.

the fact that not only this comment exists, but is brutally accurate as well in a hurt and heal topic in the onyx arcade, says enough about how this thread is currently devolving. id propose to wrap all discussions youre currently having up as quickly as possible, because theres honestly nothing either side can gain from it barring frustration and anger.

[Wolfox]

11 minutes ago, Anstane said:

That's not exactly a good comparison, considering Ice gets Walrein which is a pretty solid Fire counter. A better comparison would be Ice vs Steel (More specifically, Ice vs Scizor.) And yeah, I kind of consider Steel the "Fun Police" type as it's basically "If you don't run a number of Steel answers, you will lose to Steel over, over and over again."

that is, actually, not true. Fairy stands a better chance against steel than Ice (not by much, but non the less a little). Fairy can toss a fire blast clefable out (Yes, that is the most reliable thing fairy has against steel, and even that is not reliable). Ice literally has nothing to deal with steel, hence why I picked Fire as example type

[....]

Guys guys please ~

 

 

[HAWmaro]

Oh well i'll live with the happiness that fairys finished dead last i guess.

[Wolfox]

rub it in some more will ya -.-

[Zargerth]

Just now, Wolfox said:

rub it in some more will ya -.-

 

[NickCrash]

19 hours ago, Jess said:

It's not petty, it's strategy. When all the Ghost lovers ganged up on Bugs (after your suggestion in one of your previous posts) it was OK, but the Bug type fans aren't allowed to defend the type they prefer? So, I guess strategy is OK only when you are the one who's favoured and petty if you aren't? It's a freaking game, strategy is involved.

Strategy is logic, and acting on sentiment is the exact opposite. 

I'll begin this response with a suggestion to calm down. I believe you are being a bit too defensive and thus make accusations that lack concrete basis. 

If you are going to accuse someone of hypocricy, better have a good claim to back it up. You assumed my position on the Bug/Ghost situation by describing the opposite of what I suggested. In the end the Bug type fans massacred Ghost. Yet, the strategic example I mention is merely illustrating a possible thought process behind voting.

Once again, there are levels of strategy and I went into deep lengths to make sure my point got across. Zero need to target the strawman.

 

19 hours ago, Jess said:

Now, you have to define what's moral and what's immoral. So, messaging a couple of my friends who hadn't voted till then in order to assist against the (well-planned by Ghost/Grass fans) onslaught of Bug type was immoral? I didn't really target their heads with a shotgun and threaten them to vote, they have free will. I just asked for help. I'm the one @Alistair refers to, and it's nothing I consider immoral. In fact, I'm 10000% sure, that others have done similar discussions among the Grass and Ghost type fanbase. They are just hiding behind the morality mask and are too afraid to admit it. Strategy isn't something you should be ashamed of. This game was MADE with such a ruleset that promotes having strategy and cooperation!

I don't have to do anything. The discussion upon morality stresses the point about priorities. Take that as the main focus when you read my response. Hopefully that will clear anything and everything that can be misinterpreted. It doesn't serve to set the rules of moral actions in a forum game. The only sentence you could isolate and drag to illustrate such an implication, is the one I mention "removing the fun out of the game", yet that alone is not enough to make a direct accusation.
I did not have evidence of your own participation in this, and frankly I don't care who and how many are involved. If you'd read my comment above, you would have seen that in this game, outside negotiation and co-operation hardly has a solid impact on the course of the game. Trying to overexaggerate my point will not improve yours. In no part of my analysis do I even imply coercion. However, at the same time, I pinpoint the -common- excuse that "everything that's not directly forbidden is allowed" as a ridiculous argument to support an opinion. Following the same thought process, revealing who is included in this, is also allowed by the rules, but for you (or anyone else participating) it would seem like a dick move, as you wouldn't enjoy that being known. This extreme counter measure serves to show how the tables can turn, and quite frankly, being painted as a "cheater" leaves a more long-lasting impression. The suggestion is supposed to shock you, to show how things can deteriorate fast. So, it is a strategic way of playing H&H (as there are others), and I have been around long enough to say it's not the worst I've seen (search for "Bageling" to find out more). 

If the underlined part is targeted at me, I can afford to be straightforward and deny it. I wouldn't resort to such a way of playing in this game, since I don't find any point in it (see previous post for further explanation). In other types of games, I would become disinterested if it went into the very notion of the game. I shouldn't delve into this any further. I believe it's pretty clear what both positions are. 

 

19 hours ago, Jess said:

It was just a joke among friends and you took this tiny innocent thing and turned it into the 8th deadly sin. Calm down, Jesus  

Also, of course I wanted my fav type to win this. But I couldn't care less if Bugs won or lost. When @Alistair hurt Bugs in some previous post, I just laughed and told him "God damn it Alistair! ". Yes, I get competitive at times, I bet nobody else who played this game got competitive. Not the ones that slayed Fairy overnight, or ganged up and got Bug from 24 to 9 in 5 hours. I bet those things were completely unplanned and unscheduled from behind the scenes, and the people orchestrating those weren't competitive at all!  

Here you are attacking the strawman. I did nothing of sorts. The reason I even bothered to voice my opinion was a continuous debate on the topic, centered around semantics, hardly addressing the issue. The game allows it, and multiple parties decided to exploit that. It removes the fun from it, ultimately leading to a two-sides system in which the other participants are deemed insignificant. You could argue that's an inherent problem of the game, yet that's a discussion for another time. The point is that I was not pointing fingers specifically at you or Alistair (as your names were included due to your personal debate) but to illustrate how the voting procedure switched from a free-for-all to a team-sport in which 3rd choices no longer matter. If those tactics are "underhanded" that's up to each individual to decide on their own. Being competitive has nothing to do with it. One could even make a chart with ""Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil"", describing all possible attitudes for the game/race, call it as you see fit. I've explained why it can be seen as one of those. There's no point in getting into a circular argument in which one side is accusing another for the implementation of the same practices in their voting patterns. After all, that's beside the point. If something is wrong, it's wrong for everybody. Period.

 

Remaining salty after your first response is not really what I expected. Wait for a response there, mate. It is clear you took my points the wrong way, and frankly quite personally. If you believe your playstyle was specifically targeted as immoral, you might want to re-read after relieving some of that evident frustration. 

 

 

 

 

 

[NickCrash]

@Wolfox 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your analogy. Poison has always been the "lackluster" type. With 4 types resisting it and 1 being completely immune to it, it had no offensive presence whatsoever for 5 generations. The only type weak to it, Grass, has 4 more weaknesses, all much more common and meaningful, as they do have coverage. Fire is a great response to the almighty steel, Ice was a must-have if you wished to slay dragons and the obligatory part flying type, while Flying and Bug simply had much better coverage, checking the always present in the metagame, Fighting and Psychic, which were dominant until then. If we're being honest, one would use a Poison move only as STAB. This also applied to Steel offensively, but that was a defensive powerhouse, and the only answer to Dragon types, meaning it was a necessary part of almost every team.

 

Then Gen 6 happened, and Fairy was introduced. It was obvious it was implemented as the "anti-meta" type, trying to balance the game, as it was skewed way too much in favor of Dragon, Fighting and Dark types. Guess which types Fairy was super effective against. Guess which types it resists. Even Bug, which makes no sense whatsoever (I guess resisting that U-turn or buffing Gardevoir was too important to miss /rant). Certainly Poison got an edge against the new type, but I doubt it's enough to compare to Fairy's offensive abilities. Don't forget how being immune to Dragons was enough to tilt the hyper offensive playstyle into more balanced or bulky offensive versions. That on its own is a major change. 

 

You could argue that both have exactly 2 types they are weak to, but those types themselves matter. Steel and Poison are not primarily offensive to accomplish this goal efficiently, while their synergy with other types is usually limited. At the same time, Ground and Psychic, the ones Poison is weak to, are virtually in every team, and used to be this case for 5-6 generations (depending on how you count Psychic usage). At the end of the day, it's much easier to target the pokemon having Poison/Steel moves (as they are still somewhat limited to STAB options) than to prepare for the omnipresent EQ. 

[Chim]

20 hours ago, Jess said:

 

Also, of course I wanted my fav type to win this. But I couldn't care less if Bugs won or lost. When @Alistair hurt Bugs in some previous post, I just laughed and told him "God damn it Alistair! ". Yes, I get competitive at times, I bet nobody else who played this game got competitive. Not the ones that slayed Fairy overnight, or ganged up and got Bug from 24 to 9 in 5 hours. I bet those things were completely unplanned and unscheduled from behind the scenes, and the people orchestrating those weren't competitive at all!  

 

End of rant, end of story.

 

At first I decided not to bother with this topic anymore. Bugs won, GG, let's move on. I mean, getting people who weren't playing the game involved to help your type win isn't a bad strategy if you really want to win.

 

But it seems there are some misunderstandings aka the part I underlined. I see these statements keep coming back and I believe I told Wolfox once before the reason Fairies lost so early.

You see the first 2 types to be targeted were in fact Steel and Dragon. Iirc the first 5 people who voted never touched Fairy aside from healing them. Until Hycrox and Alistair hurt fairies twice in a row and immediately got a reaction about it. After that Fairy got hurt by a few more people including Azery and myself (once). Now 2 of those players clearly stated Fairy is their least favorite type and by the looks of it Alistair doesn't like them either. Add to those 3 myself (Fairy is my least favorite type and I would've downvoted it every single time) so at the very start Fairy would gain a -8 from people who genuinely hurt their least favorite type which is one of the goals in this game.

 

Yet every 2-3 pages there is an unnecessary (salty?) remark about how unfair it was Fairy got eliminated that early and people 'ganged up' on it. Sorry to burst your bubble but if a type is disliked by multiple players, there's a high chance they'll die early. Get over it. You got your revenge by eliminating the types you didn't like instead of comparing the 'playstyle' of every type and how they compare to Fairy. This was a genuine elimination because, let's be real, who would make an effort to 'gang up' on a type 2 days in the game?

 

It's also funny that the term 'slayed overnight' is used since that's exactly what happened to Ghost. Because Jess gathered some people to support Bugs + getting help from others who genuinly like Bugs, the type had a serious advantage. Now I already stated that this was the exact reason I went after Bugs earlier than I would've done normally. I wanted to eliminate them but they got too much support so I downvoted them which is also a solid strategy. Now to move on to the main point:

- Alistair mentioned this before but there are people who would scheme to take down (or heal) the favorite types. If a type stands out too much (like the points both Grass and Bug had) it's normal some people start to target it. It's like NickCrash said: "Let's bring it down to the same level". Others could've had the same thoughts.

- There are those who like to give the final blow (not really a thing when it comes to Bug but still, might be a little valid)

- Because the people who played together started to gang up on certain types (like ghost) they triggered a response from those that healed those types. "You hurt my type, I hurt yours" 

- People genuinly voting for Bug because it was their least favorite type left

 

What some people like to call 'ganging up' on Bugs was nothing more than the result of their own actions. No one else was scheming behind the scenes or orchestrating anything. Bug stood out too much and caught at that moment the drawbacks from your strategy. 

 

You, and some other others, might not believe this especially coming from me after I already made clear what I think about you as a person but that 'ganging up' on Bugs was a genuine action from people who played the game individually. And this only happened because of your own actions. To clarify this: I was one of the first to target Bugs. But from all the people who voted at that time, the only one I talk to occasionaly is Azery. But he only started to target Bug after Ghost went down.

 

Btw this is not only directed at Jess and Wolfox but also to others in their group who felt the same way.

 

And finally one last thing. This one is directly to you Jess because I may have not made it clear last time I had a discussion with you. Stop with the false accusations towards people if you have no proof. It's not because you think that way that it's true. All you get from it is adding more fuel to the fire and triggering people while giving people a certain impression about you.

(Oh and to clarify something: my first impression about you was when you had the dragon vs bug discussion with Hycrox. Not when you called me 'that guy' when I went after Bug.)