Types Hurt & Heal (BUG TYPE WINS with 8 HP)

[Wolfox]

3 minutes ago, NickCrash said:

@Wolfox 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your analogy. Poison has always been the "lackluster" type. With 4 types resisting it and 1 being completely immune to it, it had no offensive presence whatsoever for 5 generations. The only type weak to it, Grass, has 4 more weaknesses, all much more common and meaningful, as they do have coverage. Fire is a great response to the almighty steel, Ice was a must-have if you wished to slay dragons and the obligatory part flying type, while Flying and Bug simply had much better coverage, checking the always present in the metagame, Fighting and Psychic, which were dominant until then. If we're being honest, one would use a Poison move only as STAB. This also applied to Steel offensively, but that was a defensive powerhouse, and the only answer to Dragon types, meaning it was a necessary part of almost every team.

 

Then Gen 6 happened, and Fairy was introduced. It was obvious it was implemented as the "anti-meta" type, trying to balance the game, as it was skewed way too much in favor of Dragon, Fighting and Dark types. Guess which types Fairy was super effective against. Guess which types it resists. Even Bug, which makes no sense whatsoever (I guess resisting that U-turn or buffing Gardevoir was too important to miss /rant). Certainly Poison got an edge against the new type, but I doubt it's enough to compare to Fairy's offensive abilities. Don't forget how being immune to Dragons was enough to tilt the hyper offensive playstyle into more balanced or bulky offensive versions. That on its own is a major change. 

 

You could argue that both have exactly 2 types they are weak to, but those types themselves matter. Steel and Poison are not primarily offensive to accomplish this goal efficiently, while their synergy with other types is usually limited. At the same time, Ground and Psychic, the ones Poison is weak to, are virtually in every team, and used to be this case for 5-6 generations (depending on how you count Psychic usage). At the end of the day, it's much easier to target the pokemon having Poison/Steel moves (as they are still somewhat limited to STAB options) than to prepare for the omnipresent EQ. 

True, but does this instantly mean that fairy as a whole is an "unbalanced" type? The two types it's weak to may not be extremely common in offense, the moves, and mons that are commons completely send fairy into the ground, in this sense they both got a buff. Now let's take a good look at the two types that had been completely unbalanced in the past: psychic and dragon. Psychic, while only for one gen, only had one real weakness. and the only move that type could bring out to even scare them was Pin Missile. This led to it being nerfed in gen 2 with dark being introduced and ghost now hitting it (granted ghost was still physical and physical ghosts were not a thing until gen 3). Now we look at dragons, a type that has had only 2 weaknesses for 5 generations. those being Dragon and Ice. Ice is a common type of offense, but the second you look at the resists you can understand how Dragons didn't always mind seeing an Ice type. I mean for crying out loud most of them can learn fire or rock type moves (not always reliable, but reliable enough to warrant the ice weakness checked), and the dragon weakness came down to "Which Garchomp is scarfed/which chomp wins the speed tie. And then we look at fairy. And instead of seeing Fairy having only steel and poison as a weakness as fairy being "unbalanced" or "Broken", see it as a Buff for poison and steel (and to an extend fire). Two types that for offense were about as bad as Ice was for defense. And if Fairy was only strong against Dragons people would have complained because "It's was made to kill dragons and nothing more, pretty shit move.". The reason Dark, aka Evil in Japanese, might have become weak to it could be that in pop-culture fairies are usually shown as friendly and helpful pixies. for fighting... I guess they learned from poison and steel and thought 2 types to bust were too little and slapped fighting there? IDK. Maybe it resembles Magic over Brawn?

 

In any case. My point was, and still is (yet it seems some people either just ignore what I try to say on the subject or are a bit too stubborn to try a fairy team out and see the weaknesses and the balance of the type), that fairies are nowhere near unbalanced. Gamefreak didn't add them without running some tests about it (I assume) and assuming they learned from Dragon and gen 1 psychic I don't think they would instantly break the new type. This does, however, not speak for the individual mons Fairy has at its disposal. I mean looking at just the tapu's magearna and Mega Diancie it seems really broken, but how many OP dragon legends have we had? Looking at the type as a whole will show that even with the broken ones (Tapu Lele for example) Fairy is still a completely balanced type. I will now have to mention @Hycrox, as he has never truly dubbed fairy to be Unbalanced, but simply dislikes the type because it has a lot of annoying mons (I think he didn't even mention the mon that helped ban Swagger, so I guess Klefki isn't that annoying?).

 

Each reason for disliking a type is valid and I will not deny that. But before you call a type unbalanced, look at it from both sides. There are more MU's that fairies dislike that most of the people dubbing it unbalanced would even think. a nice example is Fairy Ground. On the surface a balanced battle with Fairy having the upper hand because of Tapu Bulu and Azu. and while this to an extent true, it also isn't. Ground has ways to block azu and the two Nido's that can OHKO every tapu bulu. Tapu Koko can only really use D-gleam and HP Ice, Klefki cannot set up screens reliable and need I even mention Exca? And before you say "But fairy has ways to deal with the checks", yes, they do. but this is a Hypothetical battle. and in that Ground can curb stomp fairy easier than many believe (the reason I used ground btw is that I spoke on normal v fairy enough times and I think you all know which type has the upper hand in that battle)

[NickCrash]

I was talking more about how Poison is still behind in the "type race", compared to Fairy. As for the balance of the type itself, it's important to see how changes affect the rest of the typ chart. All things considered, as for the pokemon choices, they were lackluster in gen6 (making the mono teams predictable and incredibly easy to beat) but improved in gen7, and hopefully more type combinations with more balanced mons will follow. As it is, the metagame is seriously infestated by overpowered beasts that make this analysis hard, simply because the pokemon don't face each other in equal terms any more. 

 

As for the type itself, I do believe it gets a small unfair advantage because it targets the most commonly used types, and there is no logical justification that covers all facets of the situation. I'll explain that later (and we could elaborate on that if you're interested). I would nerf it in one of the two following ways. You tell me which you prefer (or.. none of them)

a. Make Bug do normal damage. If we go by the lore(s), Pixies never had any significant dominance over bugs, rather the opposite, with the latter being portrayed as their predators or even evil counterparts. 

b. Make Psychic resist Fairy. Currently it resists Fighting and Itself, so defensively it might need a buff. Fairy destroys Fighting and Dark, so it's placed over the triangle of Psychic>Fighting>Dark>Psychic. If the resist comes into play, Fairy gets a bit nerfed (as its counters are now easily dismissable) but not too much, changing the game drastically.

[Jess]

@NickCrash @Chim I tried to write a wall text to reply, but I won't bother, since we're gonna just re-iterate our opinions and miss the point! I just hope I didn't ruin the fun of you people. Regardless, I still think that the game was supposed to be played in a kind of an "underground" way. Secret alliances, focusing, heavy strategy. It is more entertaining this way and more "adventurous" to watch. Now, some people prefer it to be relaxed and "pure/honest". There isn't a way to keep both sides satisfied. And we can't ban anyone from participating just because we don't like his/her/xyr playstyle. That's because, like it, or not, strategic wasn't banned. And there really isn't a way to ban it. Sadly.

 

I'll just play "clean" in the starter 'mon heal/hurt. I might've gotten a bit too passionate about the type heal/hurt.

 

@Chim If you think you can judge what someone character is like, just from one argument you had with that person, you are wrong. You really don't even know 1% of me. I can take not being liked by someone though, it makes sense, I don't like people too. But, your first impression about me was a chat I had with Hycrox and I think ended up in good terms, even if it got salty/heated. I'm hot tempered, big deal, many people are. But you can't judge me over something without examining how it ended. As for my "false" accusations. I didn't "accuse" anyone directly. I said that it's highly likely (probable I'd say) that there have been other underground talks too. I can't prove it, but I didn't target anyone personally. So, what is the problem with speaking out what I think happened?

Anyways, we don't like each other, big deal, who cares.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wolfox]

2 hours ago, NickCrash said:

I was talking more about how Poison is still behind in the "type race", compared to Fairy. As for the balance of the type itself, it's important to see how changes affect the rest of the typ chart. All things considered, as for the pokemon choices, they were lackluster in gen6 (making the mono teams predictable and incredibly easy to beat) but improved in gen7, and hopefully more type combinations with more balanced mons will follow. As it is, the metagame is seriously infestated by overpowered beasts that make this analysis hard, simply because the pokemon don't face each other in equal terms any more. 

 

As for the type itself, I do believe it gets a small unfair advantage because it targets the most commonly used types, and there is no logical justification that covers all facets of the situation. I'll explain that later (and we could elaborate on that if you're interested). I would nerf it in one of the two following ways. You tell me which you prefer (or.. none of them)

a. Make Bug do normal damage. If we go by the lore(s), Pixies never had any significant dominance over bugs, rather the opposite, with the latter being portrayed as their predators or even evil counterparts. 

b. Make Psychic resist Fairy. Currently it resists Fighting and Itself, so defensively it might need a buff. Fairy destroys Fighting and Dark, so it's placed over the triangle of Psychic>Fighting>Dark>Psychic. If the resist comes into play, Fairy gets a bit nerfed (as its counters are now easily dismissable) but not too much, changing the game drastically.

those are actually nerfs I can get behind. but the bug one is stingy to me because that would mean Scizor can actually not be stopped by fairy (I mean, no big change there) but the Psychic one makes a lot of sense. Fairy being a bit more Magical would mean that the mind can beat magic

[dragonsbeat]

Oh were done sorry i haven't been here for so long

but YAY BUGS WIN now i hope they won't bug me anymore

[Zarc]

Wtf i didn't knew there was this topic. Dragons...  fire...  

 

 

BUGS WON ? HOW ?

 

 

Oh yeah , with all the bees on this community , everything seems logical !

 

 

bzzz

 

 

 

 

 

 

[seki108]

11 hours ago, Zarc said:

BUGS WON ? HOW ?

 

Not as much of an upset as Roxie beating Elsa in the Unova section of the Gym Leaders Hurt/Heal, but still a bit surprising.

[Wolfox]

12 hours ago, Zarc said:

BUGS WON ? HOW ?

2

the same way fairy got killed before the game really got started, people grouped together healing it. the only difference being that bug had few people actually hurting it over all