Types Hurt & Heal (BUG TYPE WINS with 8 HP)

[Azeria]

Yeah it's to be expected.

 

Not saying Dragon didn't need a nerf, it definitely did. Just that Fairy as it is right now isn't OK either.

[Jess]

@Azeria I see your point about the Bug types you mention. You elaborately "forget" to mention their weak points too, but never mind. e.g. Scizor can do nothing to Fire types. What kind of competitive team has no Fire type nowadays?! Also, Araquanid is ridiculously slow, and with pathetic offenses, so any attack that isn't Water typed is gonna only scratch the opponent. Volcarona loses half HP to Stealth Rocks, isn't immune to Spikes OR Toxic Spikes and gets OHKO'ed by pretty much every Rock/Flying type attacks (since they are mostly physical). It is definitely OU, but let's be reasonable, it has checks. Much like the OU Dragons do. Heracross is very strong (Choice Scarf might get is fast as hell, has great coverage and a great ability in Moxie), but without Choice Scarf and with a 4x weakness to Flying it's nothing you can't counter. Also, Choice Scarf sometimes completely ruins your chance to sweep with Moxie, due to locking you in one move. With a tiny bit of experience you can easily tell when a Heracross is Scarfed, and take advantage of it to set up for free by sending in something that resists its previously used move (even at +1, it doesn't really hit hard if it's x(1/2) or x(1/4) and non-stab e.g. Rock Blast or Earthquake).

I could write a similar wall text with every Dragon and why they are at least twice as scary as the (very few) competitively good Bug types. But this beats the point of this topic.

 

My point is pretty much what @Wolfox said. 

"And naming some bug types "OP" while not naming dragons who are at least equally strong is kinda unfair (looking at you chomp, looking at you)"

 

Fun fact: I am not a huge fan of Scizor. I've always considered Scyther's cry to be annoying, and its design to be edgy to say the least. Even the few times I play monotype on Showdown, my Bug team doesn't include it, and I've lost because of this preference of mine quite a few times...

 

[Azeria]

Didn't exactly say Dragon wasn't strong/OP though, I said:

Quote

Tfw bug is a shit type but has a lot of OP mons and moves itself..

But fair enough.

[Jess]

I know, but it is only reasonable for a type to have 6-7 really good mons out of like 45 (fully evolved Bugs) that share the typing. This is reasonable. Dragons are OP/really good at a percentage of about 80-90% of the mons that share the typing. This is what makes a type broken.

Let's not complain about things like Quiver Dance, which is pretty much the only thing that allows Bugs to stand a chance... Especially taking under consideration the amount of skill it needs to find the correct timing to set-up with this (unlike Dragon Dance, which you can set up pretty much anytime due to the bulk and resistances of Dragon types).

[Wolfox]

It actually really is. while it only has 2 weaknesses, it's not really too great for offense and defense either. strong to fighting, dark and dragon while resister fighting, dark dragon and bug (not the best line) and being resisted by steel, poison, and fire (some pretty common types for pretty obvious reasons other than fairy resistance) and weak to poison and steel. but that's only base fairy. and most fairies can easily be beaten by exploiting the weaknesses of their secondary types (like dragons, but actually kinda easy). Examples: Koko(eq, nothing else needs to be said). bulu, poison, flying, fire, steel... not that great. Lele, I'll give you this one, lele was made a bit too strong. granted most of its overpowering side comes from Psychic. Fini: same weaknesses as Azu, but with more def but less HP. Also a bit of a contradicting mon since it would be good for stall but its ability keeps it from doing so. Magrearna: Yeah, I'll give you this one too. It's really fucking strong (like a certain 8 legged steel type).

 Now, before you note all that I say of as pure bias for Fairy type, don't. I will never say fairy is not an extremely strong type. But to say that it's "OP" is far from the truth. It's generally a good type to support teams, but on its own... not too much. Yes, it was top tier in Monotype (and might still be), but most of that came from 3/4 mons: Bulu, Koko, Magearna and Mega Diancie. add Klefki and Azu to that and boom, full monotype fairy mono before the Magearna ban. But most of the power fairies have comes from their synergy with the secondary types. But that's also a weakness of theirs, as they have to rely on that a lot. Examples: there are barely any offensive fairy moves; fairy wind, draining kiss, disarming voice, dazzling gleam, moonblast and play rough. See a connection here? almost all of them are special. Ths coupled with the fact that play rough is (for some reason) 90 acc makes a special wall instantly put a blockade on many fairies.

 So saying it's "not okay" as it is now is really not that accurate. Yes, it's a strong type, extremely so. But it's balanced. The boons it has are balanced out by the weaknesses it has. be it movepool, stats, MU's or secondary types. Yes, there are some that are extremely OP, but literally, every type has at least one of those. And most of the one's fairy has, have another type, allowing that other type to also have that same power.

 

I've said it many times and I will keep saying it: Fairy is strong but balanced. If you can't see it I urge you to, for example, pick up a fairy team and play some monotype with it. You'll see where it lacks soon enough as the types that mess it up, one way or another (be it a weakness, mon availability or whatever), they actually completely blow fairy out of the damn water. My favorite example is the fairy vs normal MU. Normal has a big advantage there. WHy is that you ask? because the walls Normal has can completely block all fairy types. Chansey, in particular, is the biggest reason fairy can't really do anything. Because Fairy only has one mon for dealing with it: Azu. And you know what is really predictable in that MU? Azu. It will try to knock the eviolite so fairy at least has a chance of killing it. but that usually results in Azu knocking on the mega and having to swap back out.

 

And here ends my rant. If you wanna call me a biased bitch for liking this type, please do. But remember: I don't give a flying fuck. I know most, if not all, of the weaknesses fairy has. And trust me, those balance it out most of the time, if not almost all the time (unless your name is Tapu Lele. That thing is actually busted).

[Hycrox]

On the last day of Christmas, Santa gave to me... the timely fall of fairies!

 

ok now let's be serious:

 

Water: 13

Grass : 25

Dragon : 14

Electric : 17

Steel: 13

Fire : 18

Ground : 21

Ice : 22

Fight : 20

Normal : 18

Ghost : 18

Dark : 19

Bug : 21

Flying : 18

Rock : 19

Poison : 19

Psychic : 18

 

And now... fuck this'll be long

 

Spoiler

@Wolfox well you did raise some points there, but a mon with as many toxic mons as Fairy is rather unbalanced. Just because Fairy isn't very diverse in mons, with several pokemon having similar roles, it doesn't make it balanced. And Fairy has more than Azu for Chansey (see: Bulu, Koko, MEGA MAWILE), though I can see how the matchup against Normal would be unfair. If a type is too good against some things and too bad against others, then it is bad, as it is unbalanced. And Fairy does have the biggest weakness/resistance ratio of all types, and it resists some of the best offensive types (otherwise) out there, and bug. Meanwhile, it's not that good offensively, but it certainly works. Fairy is just too unbalanced, and the meta wouldn't really lose anything by axing it and giving Ice a resistance against dragon. And maybe make Electric neutral. Fairy is not justifyable by making Dragon not broken. Also, every type has toxic mons, but Fairy is the worst perpetrator, not only for the quantity of annoying things, but because the type itself makes them more toxic in some cases (especially clef and azu). It's the least fun type for me, due to how unoriginal its mons are in what they do (and, sometimes, are), how broken it is, and how unfair some of its mons are. And I must add: don't expect me to take you seriously when you "don't give a flying fuck" about other people's arguments. So far, there's plenty of evidence of you being biased regarding the Fairy types. Even if, your arguments are valid, as long as you back them up properly, and as long as you don't demean other people's opinions. 

 

 

Spoiler

@Jess Yep, dragons are super easy to set up with. Do remember that a fair share of those is very weak to Ice-type attacks, which are extremely common in the meta. Not to forget that a burn can halt a dragon on its setup hard. Quiver Dance doesn't have that problem. And dragons are still prone to being worn down by poison, rocks, and simple unresisted hits, and most setup dragons can't even afford to run STAB, as dragon is only super effective against itself, and most don't have another STAB. They do have good bulk, but most don't hit that hard. Kommo-o is shit tho. Volcarona gets to use both STABs usually, and gets Fiery Dance, which has a 50% chance to boost its SpA. It is really not broken only because of how physically frail it is (also rocks). It is OU for a reason, while most non-legendary dragons are BL or UU, smogon's not that negligent. Dragon Dance does for some dragons what Quiver does for some bugs too. It doesn't take that much skill to set either, since the setter doesn't need to worry about burns. And keep in mind that a fair share of dragons can be better off without dd, since they are either too susceptible to being incapacitated, therefore needing more immediate sources of power/speed, aka choice items. Dragons are prone to be walled due 

to this, and not exclusively by fairies. By your standards, the mons az pointed out are also op,moreso than dragons sometimes. Like bugs, dragons have easily exploitable weaknesses. Rocks hurt a good share, Ice attacks are a threat, given everything with access to Ice Beam is already pretty likely to use it, and Ice Shard instantly cleans every dragon that is quad weak to it (there are quite a bit) but full hp dnite (remember rocks). Bug also got jist about everything it could get within the limits of the type over the years, in power, speed, bulk, and support. I like the type for this tbh, it does have quite a bit of cool mons. In sum, dragons aren't so op right now in comparison to bug, even if you disregard fairies, due to the several power creeps along the years (Dragon didn't get as much as bug from those). Not saying they're shit now (they certainly aren't), but they're not something that demands something as extreme as fairies.

 

Spoiler

@Azerialowkey tilted, highkey mad 

uwu

 

[Jess]

@Hycrox Point was that, if you take out a small portion of Bugs (Mega Pinsir, Mega Beedrill, Volcarona, Mega Scizor, Mega Heracross) that are indeed very strong, the vast majority sucks competitively. This isn't the case for Dragon, unless you just want to not admit the obvious. You claim that Quiver Dance doesn't have that issue with Burn, because it boosts the Special and not the Physical aspect of a mon. But this is only half of story. What you say about Ice for Dragons is the exact case with Rock for Bugs. Both about the most common offensive types, and both hitting the respective type at a devastating 4x. Also, Dragons might go down to Ice. It's about the only weakness they have (and, even so, Dragonite Multiscale and Rayquaza Air Lock. Let's make them resist even that), since the other is themselves, and the third is Fairy. Most Dragons though can endure one hit from Fairies barely, thanks to their respectable bulk. What about Bugs vs Flying, Rocks and Fire, the most common offensive types? 

Let's take a look in Smogon categories too.

Anything Goes:

Bug--> None (0)

Dragon--> Mega Rayquaza (1)

Uber:

Bug--> Genesect, Pheromosa (2)

Dragon--> Dialga, Giratina, Kyurem-White, Naganadel, Necrozma-Ultra, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Mega Salamence, Zekrom, Zygarde-Complete (11)

OU:

Bug--> Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Volcarona (3)

Dragon--> Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, (Mega) Garchomp, Kingdra, Kyurem-Black, (Mega) Latios, Zygarde (7)

BL:

Bug--> Buzzwole, Mega Heracross, Scolipede (3)

Dragon--> Mega Latias, Salamence (2)

 

You do notice that the trend changes when we get lower than OU, right. It's clear which type has more competitively strong mons.

The rest are efforts to deny the already proven.

 

[Wolfox]

@Hycrox

First off, the "I don't give a flying fuck" was meant to calling me a biased bitch. Opinions and arguments I will always respect even if I disagree with them. However, I will try to get my point across and hopefully give someone a newer outlook on the situation. It's no secret fairy is my favorite type and thus I will defend it. Also, giving ice a resistance to the stab and make Electric neutral would not nerf Dragon one bit. I mean it's not like many dragons get EQ or Iron Head or something right? Oh, wait... They do...

Second:

Koko is generally special because of the movepool, Bulu gets walled by Starapter because it's usually banded, and Mega Mawile really helps a fairy mono a lot while being banned, really killing all those special walls from behind the bars. I've faced that MU more times than I can count and every time it comes down to "how long till the porsey core stalls the fairy team out?". So again, Azu is the only thing Fairy can really use against Chansey and even then it's not a certain shot. I can almost tell you the exact outcome of the scenario and as you might guess, it's not looking nice for the fairies.

 

And yet again (because I feel like me saying this keeps falling on deaf ears...) I know how strong fairies are. I will never say they aren't extremely strong. But they are more balanced than you're thinking. If you don't believe me give them a try and see for yourself.

[Hycrox]

@Wolfox

Spoiler

 

Ice was more not to give the dragons as much room to freely spam their stab (with the absence of fairy), and to make Ice actually worth defensively (tho I'd add 1 or 2 more resists for that, and Electric mons are pretty powerful and/or fast, so they would deal well with the flying dragons (Dnite and Mega mence are meanies) and Kingdra, that would only have one weakness (those were dark times). Or just turn Fairy's immunity into a resist (and give Ice the resist anw), that works too. And while I do dislike Fairy as a whole, I am aware that now it's way more balanced (as in not being as min/maxed as before), though at the cost of some ridiculous mons (see: Tapus). Klefki getting Defog was annoying, but necessary tbh. And even though all of those get walled/checked by something else in a Normal mono (hence why I referred it was still a bad MU), so does Azu. And lol sorry I thought Mega Maw was still allowed my bad. Anyways, Chansey is an upfront to Masquerain (the true god of mons), and Fairy is still mean. I am aware of what Fairies can do: Mega Altaria is actually one of my fav mons to use, and things like Gardevoir and Primarina are excellent wallbreakers. I am aware of what Fairy can and can't do, and I dislike it more than the other types because it's overall the least appealing to me.

 

@Jess

Spoiler

 

Mega Rayquaza doesn't work as a point. It was made to be broken and it's pretty much exempt from anything regarding logic. Reminder that it gets Z-Celebrate btw.

The Ubers are just a buttload of legendaries, so sure. Not to mention Pheromosa outspeeds all of those and gets Ice Beam and STAB HJK, letting hit every dragon on that list super effectively. Neverthless, I admit that Zygarde didn't need to be a dragon, aside from being the closest thing we have to Pepe in mons. Also, Air Lock annuls weather, you're thinking of Delta Stream.

Mega Pinsir and Volcarona alone are more common in OU than all of the dragons on your list put together bar Zygarde and Kyu-B, the latter of which is on par with Mega Pinsir in those terms. Then again, Megachomp and Mega Latios are not OU. They're actually below BL, since their usage doesn't even get them to BL. They're OU by a technicality, that of their base forms being OU. They're downgrades from their base forms.

 

There are clearly more Bug types than Dragon types, so talking about those in relative terms doesn't make much sense. It is so because of all the early game bugs and all the different bug mons that can be made, based on actual bugs. I'd go for an early game tiny salamander, or a DRAGONfly maybe. And if you compare the two types, Bug is actually better than Dragon in a mono, since Bug is probably the most complete mono rn. You got all the entry hazards, hazard removal, fast mons, bulky mons, answers to Fire, Rock and Flying (tho that last one oof), hard hitters (quite a bit actually)... As I said, it's a very balanced type, while Dragon can run a full squad just to check Fairies at best. And most Dragons die to your everyday Gardevoir, Primarina, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and frens in one hit. Just calc it, and see for yourself. And you did bring up rocks right? Yep, dnite is weak to those, and they actually break Multiscale. So yeah, the insurmountable beast was halted, and is ready to die to your usual SE hit, like most other mons.

 

Actually, if you take Ou, UU and RU (the three biggest tiers), the amount of dragons and bugs there is actually pretty balanced, except for RU, where there are more bugs, and those are quite common too.

 

" The rest are efforts to deny the already proven. " ok, sure. Explain this to me, since you seem so sure of your conclusions on other matters.

 

 

[Wolfox]

While I agree with Bug being a good type in monotype (mid-tier and slightly above dragon I believe), it can not deal with flying. At all. Flying is one of the high-tier types

 and oh boy does it show when facing bug. It's not quite as unfair as facing Ice with steel (Ice really just has to play perfectly and hope and pray your opponent fucks up enough times. and even then Ice loses 90% of the time), but it's still a great uphill struggle. Flying being extremely balanced in defense, offense, and even some stall blows bug out of the water, with bug being mostly focused on offense (like fire, which fire still wins most of the time, but bug can win that with more ease than flying).

[Jess]

@Hycrox Oh well... I guess my reasoning won't do it here. What only Fairies do to Dragons, bugs get done to them by Fire, Flying AND Rock. Ice is a good thing, but consider the fact that it's too slow and too weak defensively. Also, only 12 mons get Ice Shard. Most of them are awful in Physical Attack (bar Mamoswine, Weavile, Lapras, Cloyster).

Finally, Mega Garchomp IS OU.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/garchomp/

 

And Mega Latios as well.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/latios/

 

Check your sources better before answering. As for Air Lock, I meant Delta Stream, you are right. Also, Mega Rayquaza was meant to be OP. But they didn't make it a Bug or Fairy, but a DRAGON. Guess why, OP by default type.

[Azeria]

4 minutes ago, Jess said:

@Hycrox Oh well... I guess my reasoning won't do it here. What only Fairies do to Dragons, bugs get done to them by Fire, Flying AND Rock. Ice is a good thing, but consider the fact that it's too slow and too weak defensively. 

Finally, Mega Garchomp IS OU.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/garchomp/

 

And Mega Latios as well.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/latios/

 

Check your sources better before answering. As for Air Lock, I meant Delta Stream, you are right. Also, Mega Rayquaza was meant to be OP. But they didn't make it a Bug or Fairy, but a DRAGON. Guess why, OP by default type.

Spoiler

He's right.

 

Furthermore Rayquaza's a Dragon type because it's based on the Quetzalcoatl and the Ziz, a giant serpent and a primordial beast of the sky respectively.

[Jess]

I get it about Garchomp. It's mega is a downgrade. Mega Latios is obviously an upgrade. Same ability, type, better or equal stats in all categories. So, explain to me how it is a downgrade from Latios?

[St0mpa]

1 minute ago, Jess said:

I get it about Garchomp. It's mega is a downgrade. Mega Latios is obviously an upgrade. Same ability, type, better or equal stats in all categories. So, explain to me how it is a downgrade from Latios?

Becuase the teirs are based off of usage. So regular latios has the usage stats for OU but mega latios doesn't.

[Hycrox]

Spoiler

@Jess sigh what the fuck did I just say, THEY ARE NOT USED IN OU, there's no point in running either in OU if not for memes, I said it before, it's because of their base forms that they're marked as OU, I said it right there, in my last post. Just read it. Latios is a downgrade, because it can't hold an item, that's pretty clear. It can't use a Choice item for more power or speed, it can't use LO, it can't even use Soul Dew, and its stat upgrades are too meager to justify that. And Rock isn't quite true now, because of Scizor, Heracross, Buzzwole, Forretress... I could go on if you want to. Basically, most viable bugs but Volcarona (if it doesn't have Giga Drain) check Rock types, just like half of the pokemon world. Thanks to Scizor and frens, Bug v Rock roughly equals Dragon v Dragon. Fire v Bug is the equivalent of Ice v Dragon (Ice did get AVeil Tales) and Flying v Bug is hard, but not ridiculous like Fairy v Dragon. I did check my sources, unlike you apparently. Aside from Smogon, you sohould actually focus more on the actual mons of the type you're defending, as well as the things I said, since you only seem to read the words you need to to try to make a point based on what I said, instead of looking down on whoever's arguing with you. And as my good buddy az said, Ray, like every other dragon, is a dragon because of what it was based on, it's not just a random type that was slapped onto it. The mega's actually OP on the Flying side, because of, uh, nullifying Flying's weaknesses and getting an exclusive Flying weakness maybe? The Dragon type actually hinders it. I did say it was meant to be OP. And where is your reasoning actually? I am still waiting on your feedback on the points you didn't address in my original post, and just debunked every other point you made.

 

[Jess]

@Hycrox You're salty enough already, and it got boring. I'll pass on it. You didn't debunk any of my arguments either, just saying.

[Hycrox]

@JessI am still waiting on your "reasoning", on how what I said before is irrelevant, and now on why my answers to every single one of your points are insufficient. So far, you delivered nothing on those, and just kept insisting on how much more you know about this, with, again, no evidence to back it up. I admit, I am extremely salty, about the fact that you keep acting superior for no reason, insist on you being right because ______ (fill the blank, be creative), and certainly didn't read my posts (well, you don't seem to have any answer that wasn't already accounted for on my first two posts, so I'm assuming you didn't read them and just saw letters and me actually debating about this point). At this point it's not even about types anymore. Hell you're the one who directed this argument to the competitive viability of the mons of said types. It's just you simply not even trying to understand my points. I think I worded them pretty clearly. If you don't understand anything and/or want to present an argument against mine, just do it, instead of talking about it. Quitting the discussion like you did, by showing you didn't even bother undersuanding, or even reading perhaps, my arguments, while still acting high and mighty about it, is just really really childish. Wolfox is not discussing this anymore, but he did present some pretty solid arguments, and actually clarified what he meant by the "I don't give a fuck part". It's as simple as that. If you don't want to, it's fine. But then you don't get the right to act as your reasoning is the one true way, since you have nothing to show for it. And thus ends, my salt. Now let's uh, go back to the game I guess.

[Hycrox]

Since it's technically a new day

 

Water: 11

Grass : 25

Dragon : 15

Electric : 17

Steel: 13

Fire : 18

Ground : 21

Ice : 22

Fight : 20

Normal : 18

Ghost : 18

Dark : 19

Bug : 21

Flying : 18

Rock : 19

Poison : 19

Psychic : 18

[Jess]

Spoiler

 

@Hycrox OK, salt aside, cause I got salty too, and I apologise. The point I tried to make from the beginning is that Dragon is a competitively better typing than Bug. The word "better" is subjective and can be evaluated by different criteria. e.g. the number of how many good competitive mons exist in top smogon tiers. The amount of bad mons that exist in the lowest tiers. The percentage of good divided to the total of mons in each type. The amount of counters they have and the "work" they can put in, by hitting stuff supereffectively. Overall stats. And many others.

My first point was obvious, in overall base stats. Dragon is vastly superior. Also, Bugs have many many mons that are literally almost useless competitively. That's because, as we said, they are an early game type. They carry you in-game to mid-game, then they mostly fall off. Dragons are late game powerhouses, evolve late and are strong in late game. Different purposes, but that is in-game. We evaluate them for competitive, and in total. This is important to remember.

My second point, about smogon tiers, stands as I mentioned it in a previous post. Counting strictly, the numbers are absolute.

Anything Goes:

Bug--> None (0)

Dragon--> Mega Rayquaza (1)

Uber:

Bug--> Genesect, Pheromosa (2)

Dragon--> Dialga, Giratina, Kyurem-White, Naganadel, Necrozma-Ultra, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Mega Salamence, Zekrom, Zygarde-Complete (11)

OU:

Bug--> Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Volcarona (3)

Dragon--> Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, (Mega) Garchomp, Kingdra, Kyurem-Black, (Mega) Latios, Zygarde (7)

BL:

Bug--> Buzzwole, Mega Heracross, Scolipede (3)

Dragon--> Mega Latias, Salamence (2)

You mentioned how Mega Rayquaza doesn't count, because the Dragon typing actually hinders it, and doesn't help it. I take it you mean Defensively. Similarly, many Bug types are also hindered by their own typing defensively. The additional weakness to Rocks helps nobody, neither Volcarona, nor Mega Pinsir. It keeps them in check. That is element of keeping balance. Remember, my point wasn't that Dragons are OP (they were, I'm not so sure they are anymore), but that the Dragons are stronger competitively than Bugs.

Also, you mentioned how Mega Garchomp and Mega Latios aren't OU actually, but only by technicality. Garchomp for lower Speed (it hurts, I agree), and Latios cause Choice Scarf/Soul Dew are much more useful than a tiny boost in Specials and Speed. Even though I can argue about Latios that the Defense boost by Mega-evo is significant and might come in handy (Ice Shard, hello you demon), I won't and I will just say that I wrote the word Mega in parenthesis, which means that I actually counted them in OU as their main, not mega-evolved form. Where I counted a mon solely as mega-evolved, the word "Mega" isn't in parentheses, e.g Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X. So, I apologise for this misunderstanding. The point is that, strictly by numbers (not by amount of usage, since I won't get into how much each of them is encountered in same tier), good Dragons are more. Not necessarily better, since Pheromosa is an OP thing that shouldn't exist (like all Ultra Beasts, I seriously don't get how a game will retain balance with like 10 UBs, on top of 4 more legendaries getting added in a single Gen. They guys in GF will start adding more legendaries than normal mons soon.

 

The amount of Bugs in lower tiers is massive. That's because the crowd of early game Bugs is gathering for tea there. Stuff like Ariados (even with its moveset buffs), Masquerain, Vivillon, Butterfree, Shedinja, Ninjask, Beautifly et al. will never manage to even scratch the weakest of Dragons. Moves like Quiver Dance might empower some like Vivillon and Butterfree, but they can never hope to survive even a neutral physical hit with their pitiful bulk to set up. Bad Dragons do exist too, but they are not as fragile as Bugs and can pack a harder punch.

Those aforementioned points create a ratio of good to total mons in each type. For Dragons, it is much higher. That's why I said that they perform better competitively overall. You might consider it a useless stat, but, as I said, there are many ways to estimate "good" and "bad". It is subjective whether you agree or not with them.

 

When it comes to the types offensively, Bugs are bad on their own. They hit Psychic, Dark, Grass SE but 7(!) types resist Bug type moves, while Dragons hit only Dragons SE, but hit everyone else neutrally (bar Steel, Fairy). In your previous posts, you underestimated the importance of neutral coverage. Let me remind you how many Normal types rely on Retaliate or Facade/Double Edge then. The base power of moves like Draco Meteor and Outrage is immense, even though I understand how bad and easily countered Outrage is competitively (well, even an Igglybuff can mean the end). This is why Dragons are (now) balanced. They hit almost everything neutrally (Steel and Fairy exceptions), but they are using mediocre attacking moves (Draco Meteor forces you to switch afterwards, while the physical attacking moves suck, Dragon Rush is Dragon Miss and Outrage locks you in a move AND confuses you, giving the enemy an easy setup, if he has a Fairy). Bug types have more reliable moves offensively, but they hit much, MUCH less things with them. Which part outweighs the other? It's subjective. I'd rather use Dragon Rush and Draco Meteor and hit everything minus 2 than Bug Buzz and X-Scissor and hit everything minus 7 and much weaker, due to base stats.

Now, we come to secondary types. Bug cooperates in dual-type mons with 12 other types. Dragon does with 17(!). This means better secondary type coverage. Especially if we consider what some of Bug secondary types are. Ghost for Shedinja, Ground with Wormadam. Plus, Bugs lack the incredibly important (offensively) Dark, Psychic and Ice as secondary types. And they only recently got Fairy, with Ribombee, which is very fast, hits quite hard, but isn't bulky enough to be used as a Quiver Dancer in high tiers of singles.

 

Now, defensive performance. Bugs suffer to Fire, Rock and Flying, all typical and commonly used offensive types. Dragons suffer to themselves, Fairy and Ice. Bugs are extremely weak to Stealth Rock, which keeps in check certain powerhouses, e.g. Volcarona and Mega Pinsir. Dragons fear Ice, especially if they combine with the common Ground and Flying secondary types. Ice types though, are relatively slow, and their Defences are pathetic. They are especally weak to Fire and Rock, types that almost all Dragons can learn. As I already said, Ice Shard finds use only on Physical attackers, who are about 4-5 in Ice. Which means, avoid 5 Ice types and you're good to go. Also, for the Aurora Veil clause, Ice types will have to choose, set up Hail AND use Aurora Veil (giving you 2 turns of outspeeding them with their pathetic speed (bar Froslass)), or take you out. They can't do both. So, it is a matter of prediction to find out which they'll do and counter their strategy. Which means, skill. And, wherever you need skill, this means balance. I would count Alolan Ninetales too, but it's a Fairy/Ice. So, I'll put it under the Fairy category (aka FML for being a Dragon trainer). When it comes to the Quiver Dance-Dragon Dance, I see the similarity. I also see the Burn disadvantage. But, if you avoid those certain Ice types, you can set it up much easier than a Bug can set up Quiver Dance. Rock, Flying and Fire types are much more than Ice, Dragon and Fairy types. And I can't come up with many Will-O-Wisp users. I might be wrong here, it's late at night. Anyways, thing is that Dragons aren't as weak as Bugs to entry hazards. And they have many key resistances. They share some 4x weaknesses (different for each type), but I don't see how Dragons are on the worst side of the deal compared to Bugs here.

 

Your comparisons now. I'd say Rock vs Bug equals Ice vs Dragon. Common 4x weakness, now has priority too in Accelerock (even with only 1 mon, still a terror) AND strong entry hazard that cuts HP in half for 2 of the most terrifying sweepers of Bugs. Also, Ice is slower than Dragons, exactly how Rock has the speed disadvantage vs Bugs. They both can use this to come on top somehow. However, Scizor et al. isn't enough to make up for it (cause Sturdy and Stealth Rocks). To have this case, you'd have to take out the Stealth Rock (imo).

Fire vs Bug equals Dragon vs Dragon to me. You have some stuff to counter it. Crustle, Armaldo, Araquanid, Shuckle (even that). Dragons have Mega Altaria, Ice Dragons and faster Dragons. Battle of Speed pretty much.

Flying vs Bug is pretty much Fairy vs Dragon. You try to setup? You have Defog/Haze users. You try to tank and brute force them? They have Fire/Flying types... You use Electricity? They have Gliscor. They have answers to everything. Now, Fairies to Dragons are what Steel would be to Poison if it hit it super effectively too. It's Dark for Psychic. Which proves the analogy I used earlier, that Dragons WERE the closest thing we had to Gen I Psychic. Nobody complains for Dark types though. They do for Fairies. Why? They did the same thing, balanced out a broken type. 

 

I'm not an expert, but I don't see a type as unbalanced if it has some "toxic" mons. To me, for being a Bug monorunner, bulky Defogger Crobat is toxic (literally, poison). It isn't OP though. To Dragon types Magearna is OP, and to Fairy monorunners, Metagross is OP.

 

But to get back to the Bug vs Dragon, I see the analogies. But after weighing all the stuff I elaborated on, I personally believe that Dragons are stronger competitively. I don't expect you to agree with me, and I apologise for being salty. I respect your opinion, even though I disagree @Azeria @Hycrox

 

 

PS: Sorry for wall of text  

[Hycrox]

Spoiler

@Jess Thank you for this, I can now see and understand your points. Though I do not agree with some, I still see where you're coming from, and I respect thise. I compared Fire/Bug to Dragon/Ice because Fire still has quite a bit of Rock coverage and raw power, even with Araquanid being as great as it is, while most of what Rock runs gets Scizor'd, and Buzzwole can just laugh off most of what Rock-types throw at it. I'd argue that Accelerock isn't nearly as common as Ice Shard, but USUM rolled around, and Lycanroc-Dusk is, indeed, a huge presence in rock monos and rising in OU. So, I agree with you there. Though your typical Bug mono is probably as well against Rock as it'd be against, say, Dragon (ironically) there. With Stealth Rock being found on most monos and all teams from RU and above, I'm not really taking it into account as much, since it's a constant for Bug at this point. Fire/Bug is like Ice/Dragon to me: switching in is quite not really a possibility, but you can still get around with revenge killing and offensive pressure. As far as Quiver Dance goes, I'd say it's noticeably better than Dragon Dance, but its availability is abysmal, as while at least half of the dragons we know (and some more things) get DD, the only notable Quiver Dancer is Volcarona: the rest is all NU or below, as they're all pretty frail and/or have shallow offensive movepools. So I'd say they're on par with each other within these types. I do agree Dragon is better offensively: the stats alone prove it, as well as its powerful moves and some gems like Moxie Salamence, Multiscale Dragonite, and in Ubers, Aerilate Mega Salamence (who the fuck created this monster). But I still find Bug better, aside from Ubers, due to its versatility. It got so much this gen: a faster webber in Ribombee, Buzzwole, and my boi Araquanid protecting bugs against special Fire-types. Finally, I'd say that between Flying v Bug and Fairy v Dragon, if we're going with monotype rules, I reconsidered things and they're both equally horrible matchups. Fairy just has barely any switch ins as Dragon, and Bug has a ridiculous time trying to break Flying. The former is doe to Mega Diancie, Mimikyu and Gardevoir covering just about everything offensively, passing as revenge killers and requiring quite a bit of effort to take down usually, and the rest of the squad finishing off the scraps. All this behind AVeil, which shuts down the dream of actual KOs by scarfed dragons. Meanwhile, some sick bastard decided to allow all OU Flying legendaries in monotype. So Bug has to fight Zapdos, Celesteela and Lando-t constantly setting rocks. Zapdos is stupid against Bug, Celesteela makes you run Galv and Volcarona (Dnite says hi), and fuck Lando. At least Zard X is gone.

 

Dragons are good and balanced now, but I still think Fairy is still a bit too broken as a type (not so much in mons, more in the type itself). It'd actually help if it didn't resist bug (don't completely understand that one tbh) maybe, but it's still sorta in check by Steel, the type that would eat it alive if it weren't for Azu. Bug could still use a Psychic-type (mega masquerain noises), but Bug/Dark is kinda redundant imo, aside from ghosts. And Dark was not as bad in Gen 2 as Fairy is now because Bug and Fighting were pretty good against it imo. It also helped that there were exactly 4 fully evolved Dark-types at the time, two of which were really slow AND preferentially physical, and the other two were really frail. But there'd be the same scenario as now if they gave some gen 1 things a Dark-type.

 

walls of text build character :]

 

[Personthing]

Heal Bug, hurt Flying.

 

Water: 11

Grass : 25

Dragon : 15

Electric : 17

Steel: 13

Fire : 18

Ground : 21

Ice : 22

Fight : 20

Normal : 18

Ghost : 18

Dark : 19

Bug : 22

Flying : 17

Rock : 19

Poison : 19

Psychic : 18

 

 

 

 

@Jess

Not gonna get into the whole bug vs dragon thing, but rock even resembling a difficult match up for bug isn't really true. Banded Scizor (which Scizor usually is since Mega Pinsir is the single best Pokemon on a bug mono) in of itself can obliterate the entire type on its own with ease, barring Rhyperior and Alolan Golem (if it's there, keep u-turing, and Probopass loses to Superpower even at -1:-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Probopass: 316-376 (97.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO ), and scarfed Heracross more or less obliterates the entire type aside from a full health Diancie and scarfed Terrakion. Even with it's 4x weakness to Rock Mega Pinsir is still very useful vs any rock type slower than it especially if it's gotten a moxie boost before mega evolving or set up on something passive like Cradily before Mega Evolving. Scolipede also gives rock types aside from the Accelrock brothers a lot of hell. With rock's lack of real substantial hazard removal, getting rocks up of your own and webs too also give it hell too. (Note if the bug player opts to bring Forretress over Armaldo, the match up gets even easier with scarfed Terrakion no longer being annoying to switch into, and having a Tyranitar/Stakataka switch in. Any non scarfed Terrakion should the rock player be running it for some reason is not much a problem due to sticky web.) The only rock type bug really does not like is HP Fire Mega Diancie, as it is a consistent nuisance to switch into, though should Alolan Golem be gone or not present it's just another Pokemon for Scizor to destroy.

 

Fire is a match up of who can out muscle the other first, which bug wins a lot more easily and regularly than you think. Fire struggles greatly with switching into the likes of Mega Pinsir, Heracross, Scolipede, and especially Araquanid. Once Volcanion goes down of it they opted to not bring Volcanion for some reason Araquanid especially trashes fire types, ohkoing everything outside of Torkoal in the sun. (Unless Araquanid is using a specs set, which is a viable thing and never expected, in which it OHKOs Torkoal 100% of the time unless it's a specially defensive variant: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Araquanid Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal in Sun: 360-424 (104.9 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO) Scolipede may not be the most conventional choice but Fire gets ravaged by Earthquake + Rock Slide Scolipede, which has no switch ins after Heatran's air balloon is popped. The one hard thing is that bug's only real switch in to Fire is Araquanid since nothing else that's good really like eating fire moves.

 

Flying is bug's hardest match up by far, though it's certainly not unwinnable. Thunder + HP Ice Galvantula punches holes in flying, and outspeeds most of the non scarfed Pokemon seen on Flying except for Thundurus and Mega Aerodactyl (though the likes of Charizard are better in my opinion, which creates the issue of Thunder's accuracy going down). Araquanid chunks everything except Mantine, though unless the Pokemon its up against is a special attacker it has a hard time there. Mega Pinsir can also clean house should it manage to set up (which it can do super easily vs the likes of Gliscor, and usually vs Mantine though there's always that troublesome 30%, and can even get +3 vs defensive Celesteela should it get to +2 and be in good health still), though you have to play smart and whirlwind Skarmory annoys it a good deal. Sounds like I'm downplaying flying but bug really does hate taking flying type STABS and it's the type bug has the hardest time patching up its weaknesses against, and being able to overwhelm it with Pokemon outside of Galvantula requires grabbing tricky opportunities. All in all flying is definitely bug's worst match up, and one of the two I'd really consider disadvantageous. 

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention Volcarona vs flying. It can tear right through flying if set up but.......... That requires the removal/severe weakening of Charizard/Mega Aerodactyl and Mantine. Plus it dies to any physical flying move so good luck getting it up set up.

 

 

The other match up I'd say isn't so good for bug is Electric, though that's purely due to the existence of Zapdos and Tapu Koko. Zapdos is relatively annoying to take down with bug aside from with Volcarona, Araquanid (Araquanid lives one discharge and does: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Araquanid Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 294-348 (76.7 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), or Scolipede if it can get some chip off beforehand. Zapdos just does a lot of damage even if defensively invested. Tapu Koko on the other hand is just a big headache to switch into. Unless you get sticky webs up the only Pokemon that can really deal with it are Scolipede: 252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 270-320 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (Scolipede is actually great vs electric, Mega Horn + EQ + Rock Slide gives the type a lot of hell), or an already set up Volcarona.
 

Also sorry if this came off as dismissive of your opinion or hostile towards you! That's definitely not what I meant to do.

 

 

 

[seki108]

Heal Poison, Hurt Dragon

 

Water: 11

Grass : 25

Dragon : 13

Electric : 17

Steel: 13

Fire : 18

Ground : 21

Ice : 22

Fight : 20

Normal : 18

Ghost : 18

Dark : 19

Bug : 22

Flying : 17

Rock : 19

Poison : 20

Psychic : 18

[EndearingCharacterTrait]

Heal Grass, Hurt Dragon

 

Water: 11

Grass : 26

Dragon : 11

Electric : 17

Steel: 13

Fire : 18

Ground : 21

Ice : 22

Fight : 20

Normal : 18

Ghost : 18

Dark : 19

Bug : 22

Flying : 17

Rock : 19

Poison : 20

Psychic : 18

[Personthing]

Since it's the next day:

Heal Bug, hurt Flying

 

Water: 11

Grass : 26

Dragon : 11

Electric : 17

Steel: 13

Fire : 18

Ground : 21

Ice : 22

Fight : 20

Normal : 18

Ghost : 18

Dark : 19

Bug : 23

Flying : 15

Rock : 19

Poison : 20

Psychic : 18

[Wolfox]

Heal bug. Hurt Water

 

Water: 9

Grass : 26

Dragon : 11

Electric : 17

Steel: 13

Fire : 18

Ground : 21

Ice : 22

Fight : 20

Normal : 18

Ghost : 18

Dark : 19

Bug : 24

Flying : 15

Rock : 19

Poison : 20

Psychic : 18

 

Spoiler

Personthing, you'd be surprised at how mistaken you are. While yes bug has options for rock, that doesn't instantly mean rock is an easy MU. "Oh, fairy has Gardevoir with STAB Psychic, poison must be easy!" no, it's not. Secondly, Fire. Which again, isn't easy because of one mon they have. Fire has enough coverage to be able to take down Araquanid and then proceeding to burn all bugs. And then Flying... Yes, it's winnable. but please tell me a person who runs HP Ice on their Galvantula and be 100% serious about it, because all in all, that's a bit of a wasted moveslot. Now I would say That "Dragon vs Fairy is easier for dragon than you'd think due to the secondary types and some dragons having insane coverage", but I feel like I said enough about one type for a little while. And fairy still has the advantage, cuz you know, base stab being stronk vs dragons.