The Political Soap Box

[Neo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hwXwEWmAqvE

THE PLOT THICKENS

[Gyaradoskiller]

Tear gas is weak shit yo, do you even lift?

"There can be considerable variation in tolerance and response, according to the National Research Council (US) Committee on Toxicology."

Which means that it can be weak or strong depending on the situation.

By the way, you do realize that they can get hit with canisters that can fracture the skull, right? Getting hit with them can result in severe bruising, loss of eyes, skull fracture, and even death.

[Guest]

Tear gas is weak shit yo, do you even lift?

Your comment shows an abundance of thought towards the situation, allow me to educate you on tear gas through research.

Allow me to start off by asking a simple question; have you even been hit by tear gas? If so, did it hurt?

There is a reason that tear gas is banned by international treaty in warfare, however, is commonly used in domestic riot control by police.

Here's a quote from a professional.

When people are exposed to tear gas, the chemical agent activates the fine nerve endings on their eyes, skin, noses, airways and mouths, said Sven-Eric Jordt, associate professor of anesthesiology at the Duke University School of Medicine, who has studied the biological effects of tear gas.

The effect? Eyes water and eyelids swell up. When a person inhales it, the body produces mucus.

"That's why many people feel tear gas can be suffocating," Jordt said. "It produces a drowning feeling that your airways are filled up with liquid."

Some people vomit after being gassed, he said.

And then some more

The most common kind of tear gas used in riot control is called CS. It's a solid that is shot through an aerosol, so it becomes a gas, Jordt said.

Tear gas is especially dangerous for people with respiratory conditions, such as asthma and emphysema, he said.

Exposure can cause irreversible damage to the skin, similar to a chemical burn, he said.

How long the effects last depend on the level of exposure, Jordt said. There is no treatment. The best thing to do is to use "copious amounts of water" and soap, he said.

However, it has now become apparant that the tear gas used leaves a film type layer on your skin which makes it really, really difficult to remove. Soap sticks to it, which is rather frustrating in the efforts to remove it, but can still be done.

There's a reason it's banned under the Chemical Weapons Convention, which came into effect in 1997, in regards to warfare.

In essence, tear gas produces a suffocating, drowning type feeling, and depending on whether or not you have respiratory conditions, such as asthma and emphysema. It can also cause irreversible damage to the skin, similar to a chemical burn.

Furthermore, Karpy is correct, what if someone got hit on the head with a canister in the head or any other part of the body that can cause injury?

With 8 year old children in the midst of these protests as well, are you seriously going to come in here and say that tear gas is weak without realizing all of these effects? Can you honestly justify your comment? I believe not, but, I hope you were uninformed as opposed to coming in and attempting to make a joke in order to lighten the mood, because this is a really serious issue, especially with children as young as 8 (though goodness knows what they were doing amidst the protests and not at home), being hit by it.

So, please, next time, before you make a comment like that, evaluate the possible effects of the tear gas, what it can do to the protestors depending on their medical conditions, the severity of the gas, and the amounts used before you attempt to brush off tear gas like it's nothing. It can be nothing if you're there for a short amount of time but if multiple canisters are fired, and you're stuck in the thick of it, you can cop the worst possible effect.

It's harmful.

So, please, no comments like that especially the given situation in Ferguson at the moment, which is not pleasant, and since tear gas is being used as a deterrent to these protesters, it may affect them, as I have described above, therefore rendering it somewhat harmful, as opposed to it being "weak".

[The Fush]

This is implying that riots are the whole thing that started to keep the police fully equipped and ready to fire at innocent civilians.

It's true that a lot of people have done looting in the whole process, but many protestors have been stopping them from doing so aswell; the police walking around in tanks and fully loaded equipment, including tear gas (which Winter educated us on) is not because of the looters; this is not a warzone; only the police are armed here, and they're firing at and injuring (or worse) innocent protestors who are only there because of the rage they have due to the death of Michael Brown. The police here are being racist fucks and there's no way around that.

[Maelstrom]

Your comment shows an abundance of thought towards the situation, allow me to educate you on tear gas through research.

Allow me to start off by asking a simple question; have you even been hit by tear gas? If so, did it hurt?

There is a reason that tear gas is banned by international treaty in warfare, however, is commonly used in domestic riot control by police.

Here's a quote from a professional.

And then some more

However, it has now become apparant that the tear gas used leaves a film type layer on your skin which makes it really, really difficult to remove. Soap sticks to it, which is rather frustrating in the efforts to remove it, but can still be done.

There's a reason it's banned under the Chemical Weapons Convention, which came into effect in 1997, in regards to warfare.

In essence, tear gas produces a suffocating, drowning type feeling, and depending on whether or not you have respiratory conditions, such as asthma and emphysema. It can also cause irreversible damage to the skin, similar to a chemical burn.

Furthermore, Karpy is correct, what if someone got hit on the head with a canister in the head or any other part of the body that can cause injury?

With 8 year old children in the midst of these protests as well, are you seriously going to come in here and say that tear gas is weak without realizing all of these effects? Can you honestly justify your comment? I believe not, but, I hope you were uninformed as opposed to coming in and attempting to make a joke in order to lighten the mood, because this is a really serious issue, especially with children as young as 8 (though goodness knows what they were doing amidst the protests and not at home), being hit by it.

So, please, next time, before you make a comment like that, evaluate the possible effects of the tear gas, what it can do to the protestors depending on their medical conditions, the severity of the gas, and the amounts used before you attempt to brush off tear gas like it's nothing. It can be nothing if you're there for a short amount of time but if multiple canisters are fired, and you're stuck in the thick of it, you can cop the worst possible effect.

It's harmful.

So, please, no comments like that especially the given situation in Ferguson at the moment, which is not pleasant, and since tear gas is being used as a deterrent to these protesters, it may affect them, as I have described above, therefore rendering it somewhat harmful, as opposed to it being "weak".

Karpy, I've never heard of CS being banned by anyone of any country by any treaty. You're probably thinking of other gases. Like the lethal ones and shit.

Winter

I like how you spout reading like you know what you're talking about. CS gas is what they use in military and police training. We purposely get gassed. It's not nearly as bad as your reading makes it out to be.

Especially in open, outside spaces where people are free to move and leave- which is the point anyways. You would have to be deliberately keeping yourself in the gas cloud/right next to the canister to for it to start to be overbearing, even for those more sensitive to it. (mind you, I've been purposely exposed to high doses of it in small enclosed rooms and was not let out until after a certain time, multiple times in a row) It is actually quite easy to wash off in a shower. It burns, the natural and correct response is to get away. And getting sweat, water on the affected area does initiate the burning sensation again. Which is more akin to a mild sunburn and really doesn't last that long if you were smart enough to get out of the way.

Getting hit in the head by a canister. Is this really a huge concern? Really? What if you tripped and fell and got trampled by the rest of the crowd? herp derp.

What moron still brings children to the protest/riot lines at night after all this time? This shouldn't be a thing.

I keep hearing this thing about innocent civilians and not enough of how there some civilians who aren't so innocent mixed among them in the crowds. Or how the crowds, like in the video I last linked are deliberately disobeying reasonable commands and control lines.

"It's not a warzone." But you have a large group of people who are potentially armed with guns and/or knives. Expect rabbits but prepare for bear. You guys see their gear, but they have their weapons, and stuff that holds the rest of their nonlethal equipment, like handcuffs and zip ties and radios and tools and you get your panties in a bunch about being militarized. Helmets are for safety. Gas masks are so the police can stand in place and enforce their lines if/when people toss the canisters back at them. If you think they look all that rough and tough, it's because you don't have a trained eyed for these things. It's people psyching themselves out and panicking.

Why are people afraid of armored vehicles? It means if people start shooting, the cops will be safe inside. Do you expect them to run people over? I don't see the mounted machine gun at the top of those vehicles that the military would have.

CS gas is still better than getting shot by rubber bullets and shit, and keeps the cops out at a safe distance and out of reach of the crowds. I mean, I suppose some of you people would prefer a riot shield line with batons and mace and side arms and direct contact and much higher potential for injury for law enforcement and protesters alike. Or go back to hosing people down from fire hydrants.

I see total panic and a lack of informed perspective.

Many types of tear gas and other riot control agents have been produced with effects ranging from mild tearing of the eyes to immediate vomiting and prostration. CN and CS are the most widely used and known, but around 15 different types of tear gas have been developed worldwide e.g., adamsite or bromoacetone, CNB, and CNC. CS has become the most popular due to its strong effect and lack of toxicity in comparison with other similar chemical agents. The effect of CS on a person will depend on whether it is packaged as a solution or used as an aerosol. The size of solution droplets and the size of the CS particulates after evaporation are factors determining its effect on the human body.^[9]

The chemical reacts with moisture on the skin and in the eyes, causing a burning sensation and the immediate forceful and uncontrollable shutting of the eyes. Effects usually include tears streaming from the eyes, profuse coughing, exceptional nasal discharge that is full of mucus, burning in the eyes, eyelids, nose and throat areas, disorientation, dizziness and restricted breathing. It will also burn the skin where sweaty and/or sunburned. In highly concentrated doses it can also induce severe coughing and vomiting. Almost all of the immediate effects wear off within an hour (such as exceptional nasal discharge and profuse coughing), although the feeling of burning and highly irritated skin may persist for hours. Affected clothing will need to be washed several times or thrown away.

And as far as Godot is concerned, his information is second via myself and at least one mutual friend who is in the airforce.

[Guest]

Alright Mael, point made and I'll accept that.

Still doesn't give you the right to post something like that since this place is for serious discussion and that post is anything but serious, I mean, you could come out with a sustained logical argument such as "Tear gas isn't as harmful as people make it out to be, blah blah blah -evidence-" like you have, but honestly..

"Tear gas is weak shit, do you even lift?" I'm less inclined to believe you and more inclined to think that you have an uninformed opinion.

But, understanding your perspective, and the accuracy of it, I can see where you're coming from and I understand, and as I state later in the post, it was just from one reading, so one, rather uneducated and insignificant experience in regards to on hand experience, like yourself, so, yours broadens my understanding of the gas even further.

And yes, I completely understand the other side and that others could possibly be armed and everything, however I was under the assumption that Wolf came in and attempted to make a joke about it, so I did some reading from USA today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/08/19/tear-gas-ferguson-chemical-weapons-convention/14279031/)

I just think that Wolf's comment could've been worded in a more... proper manner?

And, as for the confusion about the banning of tear gas, the Geneva Convention and that chemicals treaty I mentioned earlier allude to the different type of tear gas, the one that blinded the troops in WWI I think it was (could've been WWII but memory doesn't serve me well enough)

All I was trying to do was explain the effect of the gas based off of one article I read, because, well, that's what the official said, and younger people like myself tend to believe what the guy in the medical facility in the university says, but then again, the media can twist and interpret it and display it to their audience for various meanings.

Otherwise, I can totally see your point, and acknowledge mine was rather off point, and am more than willing to accept that one reading (that I kind of copy/pasted) influenced the stuff I said about gas.

[TurboAura]

One simple thing... Why exactly are 'inoccents' getting involved? Especially the apparent children? Why is this even happening!?!? As the video showed, the man that got shot that was apperently the one that triggered it had just used his size to steal from the store the video is from. Not only that, from what we heard about all this, he was resisting arrest from having just robbed a store. Even if it was 'unjustified' they act like it doesn't happen around the world everyday.

Next, the riots/protests. The cops do have reason to be prepared when it started up as riots and robberies. As well as that, why exactly are the innocents there if they know all this could turn into. And the children... For goodness sake, if your going to protest, have some kind of intelligence and Lock Your Doors With Your Children Inside. From what I've heard, a lot of the 'rioters' don't even live there, just came down during the rage as a reason to start trouble. Along with that, they are using rubber bullets, tear gas, loudspeakers, gas masks, 'riot shields'. These are actions to prevent trouble, not to provoke it.

Now, you can say I'm wrong, but a majority of the problems caused so far are due to stupidity.

[Godot]

I think civilian aimed tear gas is weak because I have been exposed to it as well. Some similar events to ferguson have been happening where I live. And one night I decided to go out and get something to eat.

On my way back home there was some police force units holding off some protesters who were raging about how apparently some kid got shot by a cop who was "protecting his mother" and a man who was "gunned down for camping." At least that is what the posters told me.

As I was passing by the police people threw some tear gas at the protesters and I got caught up in the impact. How did it feel? It itched I guess. I only was pissed because I had to throw away my food and order a pizza :/

So I once again ask the question, tear gas is weak shit yo! Do you even lift?

Full story on the cases that the protesters were protesting...

A woman was pulled over for a speeding ticket. She refused to pay it and her son, who was in his late teens, got out of his car and attacked the cop. The officer was an older officer who was planning on retiring in the upcoming months. He was unable to fight off the kid with his own physical strength and resorted to his gun. Family caused a huge riot over it and had the man discharged, ruining his life, career, and retirement plans.

Ya! Fuck cops! Fuck those guys! Filthy murdering scumbags!

[The Fush]

Full story on the cases that the protesters were protesting...

A woman was pulled over for a speeding ticket. She refused to pay it and her son, who was in his late teens, got out of his car and attacked the cop. The officer was an older officer who was planning on retiring in the upcoming months. He was unable to fight off the kid with his own physical strength and resorted to his gun. Family caused a huge riot over it and had the man discharged, ruining his life, career, and retirement plans.

Ya! Fuck cops! Fuck those guys! Filthy murdering scumbags!

Some actual context on date and location and possibly more than just a lone case could justify this a bit more than you currently have.

[Godot]

Oh ya, the other one involved a hobo making his home on property that wasn't his own that he was asked to leave. Property owners called the cops, APD asked him to leave, he refused and pulled a knife on them. Cops fired warning shots with rubber bullets. hobo somehow dies. Everyone blames cops. Seems legit.

Also fun fact, if an official throws tear gas or a gas canister at a rioting crowd, they wouldn't aim for the head, they would throw it underhand like a softball, or roll it in like a Bowling ball. They would never throw it overhand.

Being worried about blunt trauma is a childish concern.

Again. Do you? Even lift?

[Noivy]

There's no such thing as innocence in this conflict. Everyone's guilty of something. Everyone's fair fucking game. There's evil in both sides, and that's just the flat blatant truth of it. People are making piss poor decisions and are letting emotions influence them. People react to things, and in the end both police AND protesters are people, right?

And looking back on the last few pages, it's becoming another fucking argument here that's just going to end in people getting angry. Can we not do this?

[Gyaradoskiller]

There's no such thing as innocence in this conflict. Everyone's guilty of something. Everyone's fair fucking game. There's evil in both sides, and that's just the flat blatant truth of it. People are making piss poor decisions and are letting emotions influence them. People react to things, and in the end both police AND protesters are people, right?

And looking back on the last few pages, it's becoming another fucking argument here that's just going to end in people getting angry. Can we not do this?

I've actually noticed it too. That's why I've been trying to avoid this discussion now. Too bad that there's nothing else big in the political world. Edited August 20, 2014 by Gyaradoskiller

[The Fush]

Oh ya, the other one involved a hobo making his home on property that wasn't his own that he was asked to leave. Property owners called the cops, APD asked him to leave, he refused and pulled a knife on them. Cops fired warning shots with rubber bullets. hobo somehow dies. Everyone blames cops. Seems legit.

And both of these cases happened in Ferguson, may I confirm?

[Godot]

I give up.

Ignorance is the reason why I don't participate in these discussions.

[Chevaleresse]

I give up.

Ignorance is the reason why I don't participate in these discussions.

That's rather childish, since literally no one has disputed any of the information you've presented; you've just gotten explanations as to why particular people held a certain opinion.

[Gyaradoskiller]

That's rather childish, since literally no one has disputed any of the information you've presented; you've just gotten explanations as to why particular people held a certain opinion.

He's right. Plus, you didn't exactly present any important information at all.

[Godot]

You guys just suck at reading that is why

[Maelstrom]

And both of these cases happened in Ferguson, may I confirm?

They happened in Albuquerque, where Godot lives. Which is how he got a small taste of what the gas can do. cuz attention to details

[Godot]

I used the phrase "where I live" many times

[Gyaradoskiller]

I used the phrase "where I live" many times

At least you're honest about it.

[Deleted User]

This right here says it all. Our government is truly interested in anything overseas except keeping control over the oil and other resources.

Does the outfitting of units such as this factor into the "defense" budget?

[Godot]

1. They do have vehicles like that in Afghanistan, this Witty Huton needs to learn what is going on in the real world.

2. OH NO! AN ARMORED VEHICLE! PEOPLE ARE IN DANGER!?! NOW THE RIOTERS CAN'T HURT THE POLICE OFFICERS!?! FOR SHAME!

3. Then again, of course we don't have vehicles like that in the middle east. The Truck says Police right on the front, that is out of their Jurisdiction. The Trucks we have there all say 'MURICA FUCK YA!

4. Budget? What are you talking about? Every major city has a few of these just sitting around, there were a few of them that took the APD less than 12 hours to load up and get ready to go. These vehicles are used to keep Rioters from spreading harm to the public. Also, the only thing that is coming out of our taxes to run this thing, is just gas money.

5. I am not understanding what this is supposed to say? All this Tweet show's is how some twat doesn't know how the real world works.

[Neo]

You seem awfully okay with the increased militarization of police forces across America.

Also, while they DO have vehicles like that in Afg, they don't fucking put all the bells and whistles on them like the one shown in the pic. Notice the retweet "We didn't equip our MRAPs like this in Afghanistan"

[Deleted User]

Neo, even though you act like a goon, I agree with you most of the time and you definitely don't seem to talk out of ignorance most of the time.

[Godot]

Militarization, or keeping our police forces safe? If people are going to become literal road blocks or attack our officers, then yes, they do need this kind of protection.

And yes, we don't equip our trucks like that in Afganistan, they are more equipped in the middle east since our trucks out there get bombed and stuff.

You silly kids, you get so cute sometimes.