Shanco Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) Ryan C here. Recently, there's been an outcry and whack of complaints about implementing Evasion Clause in the ladder. And I gotta say, all of that is quite childish. So, that said, it's time to delve into how to... Evade Evasion! Introduction Evasion, of course, goes beyond Sand Veil and Snow Cloak. The big problem is the +6 Evasion boosts that people (It's not just one person anymore) are using to gain an advantage. We'll talk about how to get around Evasion in all of its forms, including Items, Abilities, and Moves. Settle in, kids, because this is going to become part of the meta. Items (BrightPowder, Lax Incense) These items are the least of your problems, as they don't cause as much of a problem as the others. The best thing to do is prepare yourself with something like a Substitute or defensive stat-ups so you have more opportunities to strike back. Start of turn 8 Lucario used Substitute! Lucario made a substitute! The foe's Swampert used Curse! The foe's Swampert's Attack rose! The foe's Swampert's Defense rose! The foe's Swampert's Speed fell! Start of turn 9 Lucario used Ice Punch! The attack of Lucario missed! The foe's Swampert used Earthquake! It's super effective! Lucario's substitute faded! Start of turn 10 Lucario used Close Combat! A critical hit! The foe's Swampert lost 100% of its health! The foe's Swampert fainted! Lucario's Defense fell! Lucario's Sp. Def. fell! Standard Evasion Abilities (Sand Veil, Snow Cloak) These are much more common. The best way to deal with these is either with the above strategy or with moves such as Gastro Acid or Entrainment, to give it a crappy (or at least worse) Ability, such as Truant (Durant). Accumulative Evasion Abilities (Moody) If you're up against a Moody Pokemon, you don't have time to set up for a long haul. You need to hit as quick as you can as soon you see it. Then again, it doesn't quite work like Speed Boost; it works like a Toxic Orb or Flame Orb in which it goes off at the end of the turn, regardless of whether or not the enemy's been out for a full turn or not. Make sure you capitalize on the fact that this is a random stat that skyrockets, and that there's only about a 14% chance of Evasion going up. Start of turn 15 Nobunaga called Mismagius back! Nobunaga sent out Derpy! (Bibarel) Lucario used Ice Punch! It's not very effective... The foe's Derpy lost 12% of its health! Rain continues to fall. The foe's Derpy's Moody sharply raises its Sp. Def.! The foe's Derpy's Moody lowers its Defense! Start of turn 16 Lucario used Close Combat! It's super effective! The foe's Derpy hung on thanks to its Focus Band! The foe's Derpy lost 86% of its health! Lucario's Defense fell! Lucario's Sp. Def. fell! The foe's Derpy used Subsitute! The foe's Derpy hasn't enough energy left! Rain continues to fall. The foe's Derpy's Moody sharply raises its Evasion! The foe's Derpy's Moody lowers its Defense! Accumulative Evasion Moves (Double Team, Minimize, Acupressure) Like I said to Kamina, the best thing you can do with accumulative evasion is not let it happen in the first place. Easier said than done though, that's for sure. Here's the list of moves you can use to being the evasion attempts down with a thud. Foresight and Odor Sleuth: Remember that Odor Sleuth? Yeah, that Zigzagoon knew it and you thought it was useless. Turns out it's not. These moves are primarily used for the effect of being able to hit Ghosts with Normal- and Fighting-type moves, but turns out they're more useful than meets the eye. They reset the opponent's Evasion, which opens the opportunity for more attacks. What's even better is not only do they have perfect accuracy, making bringing them back down to earth easier, but if I'm correct they hit through Substitute, like Taunt. Beware, though, as Magic Bounce can reflect it back. Start of turn 21 The foe's Chandelure used Minimize! The foe's Chandelure's Evasion sharply rose! Arcanine used Odor Sleuth! The foe's Chandelure was identified! Ryan C: Uh oh. Start of turn 22 Arcanine used Close Combat! The foe's Chandelure lost 52% of its health! The foe's Chandelure fainted! Arcanine's Defense fell! Arcanine's Sp. Def. fell! Miracle Eye: Same thing as Foresight and Odor Sleuth, except now Dark-types can be hit by Psychic-type moves instead of the other. Haze: This is the big one. Eliminates everyone's stat changes, both positive and negative. Best thing is that there's no stopping it, not even with Substitute or Magic Bounce as it affects everyone. It can really help stop a big build-up and can turn the battle in your favor so long as you can throw a haymaker back the other way. Crep's Drifblim used Minimize! Crep's Drifblim's Evasion sharply rose! [AO]Berserker's Milotic used Haze! All stat changes were eliminated! Start of turn 16 Crep's Drifblim used Baton Pass! Crep called Drifblim back! Crep sent out Zapdos! [AO]Berserker's Milotic used Ice Beam! It's super effective! Crep's Zapdos hung on using its Focus Sash! Crep's Zapdos lost 99% of its health! Late additions, courtesy of friends Curse (Zen/Dodrio, Amethyst, Ikaru) Curse is a weird move. But it's the unsung hero that everyone seems to forget. Curse goes through Taunt, goes through Magic Bounce, hits Normal-types, has perfect accuracy AND gets carried on by Baton Pass. The only problem is that it doesn't work fast enough to get a foolproof KO on certain teams. It hurts, though. Start of turn 2 The foe's Blaziken used Double Team! The foe's Blaziken's Evasion rose! Dusclops used Curse! Dusclops cut its own HP and laid a curse on the foe's Blaziken! The foe's Blaziken's Speed Boost increases its Speed! The foe's Blaziken's Speed rose! The foe's Blaziken is afflicted by the curse! Start of turn 3 The foe's Blaziken used Baton Pass! Wizard Howl called Blaziken back! Wizard Howl sent out Vaporeon! Dusclops used Pain Split! The battlers shared their pain! The foe's Vaporeon is afflicted by the curse! Wizard Howl: oh Wizard Howl: didn't know it did that No Guard (Zen) No Guard is a cool strat to use. The ability to have all attacks hit is amazing against evaders, and can quite easily punish those who have yet to set up defenses. Start of turn 11 The foe's Chandelure used Minimize! The foe's Chandelure's Evasion sharply rose! Machamp used Stone Edge! It's super effective! Ryan C: Yeah...no. The foe's Chandelure lost 100% of its health! The foe's Chandelure fainted! Lock-On / Mind Reader (Zen) I'm surprised we all overlooked this one. Since it affects the user rather than the opponent, it's not affected by the opponent. That's awesome. It might mean Articuno gets some use. MIGHT... Start of turn 7 Ryan C's Starmie used Minimize! The foe's Starmie's Evasion sharply rose! Reborn's Dodrio's Articuno used Mind Reader! Reborn's Dodrio's Articuno took aim at Ryan C's Starmie! Ryan C: Ah...shit. Start of turn 8 Ryan C's Starmie used Thunderbolt! It's super effective! Reborn's Dodrio's Articuno lost 67% of its health! Reborn's Dodrio's Articuno used Sheer Cold! Ryan C's Starmie lost 90% of its health! Ryan C's Starmie fainted! It's a one-hit KO! Perish Song (Some curious experiments) Perish Song is another thing that ignores Evasion, Substitute, Magic Bounce, blah blah blah. It basically means that they "Surrender now, or prepare to fight, fight, fight! "Meowth, that's right!" Okay, it wouldn't be much of a fight but whatever. It does, however, get blocked by Soundproof, so just be aware of that. Start of turn 31 Murkrow used Perish Song! All Pokemon hearing this song will faint in three turns! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Murkrow lost 6% of its health! Murkrow's stat changes were elminated! Murkrow's perish count fell to 3. The foe's Drifblim's perish count fell to 3. [PCS] Valin Testing: yeah you're done ryan Ryan C: I'm not. [PCS] Valin Testing: ? Start of turn 32 Ryan C called Murkrow back! Ryan C sent out Mismagius! The foe's Drifblim used Baton Pass! Crep called Drifblim back! Crep sent out Espeon! The foe's Espeon's perish count fell to 2. Start of turn 33 Mismagius used Nasty Plot! Mismagius's Sp. Atk. harshly rose! [PCS] Valin Testing: oh The foe's Espeon used Baton Pass! crep forfeited against Ryan C! Clear Smog (Yours Truly) So apparently, everyone either missed Clear Smog or passed it off as ineffective against evasion due to it being an attack move and, as such, people accordingly thinking it had accuracy. This, people, is where you happen to be wrong, as I have just found out now. Clear Smog has perfect accuracy, it isn't stopped by Taunt, and it isn't bounced back by Magic Bounce. Be careful, however, as Steel-types like Scizor are immune to that move. That and Substitute stops the stat elimination, similar to how it stops the phazing effect of Dragon Tail or Circle Throw. Start of turn 21 The foe's Smeargle used Baton Pass! Harikuna called Smeargle back! Harikuna sent out Vaporeon! Amoonguss used Clear Smog! The foe's Vaporeon lost 4% of its health! The foe's Vaporeon's stat changes were elminated! Ryan C: ... Harikuna forfeited against [星] Shanco! The window was disabled due to one of the players closing the battle window. If you guys have any other bright ideas, post them below. My mind is pretty shallow. Reborn's game is made into what it is through this stuff. It's not going anywhere, so hopefully you can adapt. How did you beat Koga's Muk, after all? Edited January 27, 2013 by Ryan C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fush Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Doesn't using evasion yourself count as evading evasion, because then you're technically on an even level? Aside from that, although it's unlikely to be used, Zoom Lens is an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Haze is probably the best way to counter evasion... So it's likely it will be used more. I've actually ran into a couple of evasion users myself, so I might consider using it. Anyway, nice work, Ryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 On a side note, I've started using Curse on some of my ghost teams. Substitute or not, evasion or not, Curse gets to work. And the only way to get past Curse is to switch out, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Does Baton Pass pass a curse, too? Can't remember, so I didn't include it in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Amethyst Posted November 2, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 2, 2012 Yes, it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Ikaru Posted November 2, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 2, 2012 Oh, hey, that's true; Curse is also unaffected by Magic Bounce as well, if that was something that wasn't common knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Curse gets around EVERYTHING XD The drawback is that it requires half your HP to- oh hello, Eviolite dusclops. What, a Pain Split? Crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Just more stuff to munch on: --- No Guard Always hits. Tried and tested with golurk and machamp, since I got bored of Haze Disadvantage is that it doesn't cut through stat-boosts like Haze. Lock On Unwieldy, but I'm interesting in testing this one out. Theoretically, it could follow a pokemon through Baton Pass, and get a hit on whatever it was passing to. --- On a side note, I find it hilarious that effectively one person managed to dredge up this whole issue of Evasion XD To his/her credit, crep's Baton Pass team have some variety to them as opposed to the same thing over and over (the lead pokemon changes every few days - the other five always seem to be drifblim, mew, espeon, umbreon, and smeargle) LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fush Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Crep is now some kind of celebrity on Reborn, even though he isn't actually, technically, part of the Reborn Community. He just sorta drops in everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FraRPetO Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 crep is amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted November 4, 2012 Author Share Posted November 4, 2012 He won't be when everyone reads this guide and starts to crush him. Hehehehehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Your dislike of crep is scary. << Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted November 4, 2012 Author Share Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) Then you should see Kamina. His calling for an Evasion clause inspired me to do this so that he'd be quiet. It also helps everyone else out, and I'm kinda an extrovert like that For the record, I think crep is a genius as Washman said. He uses all the things we don't think of using and hence some of us hate him for that. Edited November 5, 2012 by rc52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamina Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) xD. first of all did you make fake logs because i never remember using a milotic ever and what was the point of substitute in the first example if you were gonna crit it. Anyways on a more serius note the the only time foresight/odersluth and miricle eye is only going to be useful is against a Pokemon that abuses evasion. Its like teaching a pokemon feint in gen four in order to counter protect. when a pokemon used protect it would do its job but in all other situations its completely useless and that is why it was like the least used move. (still is for gen five but it has a small base damage now). Anyways i already discussed haze in my other thread and teaching a ghost pokemon curse is also exclisively useful when encontering a bp team because in any other situation the person can switch out the next turn and you just made one of your poke lose half of its hp. Edited November 4, 2012 by ♥Double Team♥ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted November 4, 2012 Author Share Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) first of all did you make fake logs because i never remember using a milotic ever Yes, these are fake logs, except the last one with Perish Song. To his/her credit, crep's Baton Pass team have some variety to them as opposed to the same thing over and over (the lead pokemon changes every few days - the other five always seem to be drifblim, mew, espeon, umbreon, and smeargle) LOL For those of you who really care, crep's team is pretty consistent now. This is what he runs: - Zapdos: Agility, Thunder, Roar, Baton Pass (sometimes Jolteon but with the same moves) - Espeon: Stored Power, Grass Knot, Wish, Baton Pass - Drifblim: Clear Smog, Minimize, Substitute, Baton Pass - Mr. Mime: Nasty Plot, something (probably Psyshock), Magical Leaf, Baton Pass - Mew: Barrier, Amnesia, Snarl, Baton Pass - Smeargle: Spore, Ingrain, Roar, Baton Pass Edited November 5, 2012 by rc52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FraRPetO Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 crep is a legend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 Bumping this up, included Perish Song and some other little tidbits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renowner Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) Well, I apologize as this may get slightly off topic, but I do have another way to counter evasion teams, and baton pass teams in general, that nobody seems to have spoken up about yet. Its an ability, one that I used to use all the time, back when I played OU, and still even when I played BL, UU, And even NU. The ability i'm talking about is Unaware! Only seven Pokemon have it, three of which I'd consider viable Pokemon to use it with, two In OU. (This excerpt was taken out of bulbapedia's entry for the ability unaware: http://bulbapedia.bu...aware_(ability) ) "Unaware ignores the foe's positive or negative stat changes, with the exception of Speed. For example, if the foe uses Iron Defense, and a Pokémon with this Ability uses a physical move on the foe, the damage dealt will be the same as if Iron Defense was not used. Likewise, if the foe has previously been affected by Tail Whip, damage dealt to it by the Pokémon with Unaware will be as if Tail Whip had not been used" However, it also negates the foes evasion changes. Allowing your attacks to hit the with the same probability as it would originally The seven Pokemon with this ability are: Clefable, Whooper, Quagsire, Bidoof, Bibareal, Woobat, and Swoobat. I consider Clefable and Quagsire to be useable in OU, and Bibareal useable in NU. (but i'm sure all the cheep-cheeps out there will wanna use moody on bibareal if they use it at all ) Quagsire is fine in theory, but it does have a 4x weakness to grass, and I just have worse luck than normal using him, too many critical hits. My favorite, all the way back from the months and months and months ago that I started using it is always: CLEFABLE. The beauty of clefable is that it has many many different routes you can use with it, a calm mind set, a belly drum set, or even just a toxic set. (also there's my set )And most people don't see it enough to figure out what you'll do with it until the second battle. Another Possible counter to evasion is destiny bond, My qwilfish and bannete both have destiny bond, and both have stopped a drifblim pass recipient before with destiny bond, it doesn't miss, and goes through substitues, and if they take you out, they'll die too. The bonus of banette is that it also gets curse, and rc55 has already said how that is helpful. Curse also allows you to (if you're using Trick room) set up trick room, and not rely on your opponent to K.O. you after using destiny bond. So, in conclusion, unaware and destiny bond are two more ways to deal with evasion. If you go with unaware, depending on the set you use it with, it can also counter ditto. And unaware stops many stat boosting pokemon from becoming a problem, such as surperior, smeargle, dragonite, volcarona, and cloyster. The only downside to this is that only (generally) 3 useable pokemon get the ability, and if the enemy uses a strong v-create, close combat, superpower, or any of the -2 Sp.atk after use attacks, it will actually work in the opponents favor. DESTINY BOND. UNAWARE. (P.S. If you want my Clefable set, just to see what I tried, feel free to P.M. me. The clefable thread in this forums was closed off ) Edited November 5, 2012 by renowner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Well, I apologize as this may get slightly off topic, but I do have another way to counter evasion teams, and baton pass teams in general, that nobody seems to have spoken up about yet. Its an ability, one that I used to use all the time, back when I played OU, and still even when I played BL, UU, And even NU. The ability i'm talking about is Unaware! <snip> Quagsire is fine in theory, but it does have a 4x weakness to grass, and I just have worse luck than normal using him, too many critical hits. My favorite, all the way back from the months and months and months ago that I started using it is always: CLEFABLE. The beauty of clefable is that it has many many different routes you can use with it, a calm mind set, a belly drum set, or even just a toxic set. (also there's my set )And most people don't see it enough to figure out what you'll do with it until the second battle. Another Possible counter to evasion is destiny bond, My qwilfish and bannete both have destiny bond, and both have stopped a drifblim pass recipient before with destiny bond, it doesn't miss, and goes through substitues, and if they take you out, they'll die too. The bonus of banette is that it also gets curse, and rc55 has already said how that is helpful. Curse also allows you to (if you're using Trick room) set up trick room, and not rely on your opponent to K.O. you after using destiny bond. So, in conclusion, unaware and destiny bond are two more ways to deal with evasion. If you go with unaware, depending on the set you use it with, it can also counter ditto. And unaware stops many stat boosting pokemon from becoming a problem, such as surperior, smeargle, dragonite, volcarona, and cloyster. The only downside to this is that only (generally) 3 useable pokemon get the ability, and if the enemy uses a strong v-create, close combat, superpower, or any of the -2 Sp.atk after use attacks, it will actually work in the opponents favor. DESTINY BOND. UNAWARE. (P.S. If you want my Clefable set, just to see what I tried, feel free to P.M. me. The clefable thread in this forums was closed off ) Actually, it did get mentioned in one of the other threads out there It's probably the top evasion-jamming tactic, with Haze as number two. And yes, we do use Unaware clefable! Forgot the EV's, but the moveset is usually: - Stored Power - Charge Beam - Thunder Wave - Cosmic Power Since Unaware does not ignore speed boosts, Thunder Wave is a good complement to it. Cosmic Power prevents clefable from being killed too fast, and Charge Beam allows more investment on defenses. Note that krookodile and its basic forms basically nerf this set due to type immunity, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renowner Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 That's not quite like my set, I wouldn't use it. It doesn't have any recovery move. Though the charge beam boost could be nice. The moves I used were: -Rest -Cosmic power -Focus blast -Stored power Shedninja, Spiritomb, and sableye wall it though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) That's not quite like my set, I wouldn't use it. It doesn't have any recovery move. Though the charge beam boost could be nice. The moves I used were: -Rest -Cosmic power -Focus blast -Stored power Shedninja, Spiritomb, and sableye wall it though I reckon clefable learns Seismic Toss... maybe that instead of Focus Blast? Yup, the lack of recovery does hurt it sometimes, but statistically its performance is satisfactory And why rest as opposed to Softboiled? Given your defense boosts, I would think Softboiled could serve as well. Edited November 5, 2012 by Zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renowner Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 (edited) For that, there are two reasons. First and foremost is that Its an impossible combination to have softboiled and unaware on clefable. Secondly, toxic would cripple it, and to a lesser extent, burns and regular poison damage. It can really add up. As for focus blast, it hits dark types for super effective damage, and that's generally the only time I wouldn't use stored power anyway. Besides steel/psychic types. I also have been known to pass shell smash or calm mind to it, but not always. Either way, I find it to be a very effective set, when applied properly. (Clefable isn't able to learn seismic toss with the ability unaware anyway either XD ) Edited November 6, 2012 by renowner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamina Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 (edited) clafable is not viable at all with out softboild and the set that you mentioned above is not that effective against baton passing evasion teams. clafables sp attack is not that good to start out with and it is almost impossible to get 6-6 with clafable in ou because of all the figting pokes like conculder and terrekeon and keldeo and so on. also only 2 pokemon know no guard and only one of them is in OU. requiring all teams to have one takes away from the creativity aspect of the game. no unaware pokemon is even in the ou tier. Parish song is also countered by bp team (which are the usual culprits that abuse evasion) since they can just bp to a mr mime which is sound proof. And lastly, mind reader is only learned only small group of pokemon and for most of them (with the exception of articuno) the move is a wasted slot. Edited November 6, 2012 by ♥Double Team♥ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Hmm, rarely ever use clefable, so my memory's shot on it, I'll readily admit Hmm, it is handy, though. Just a question of what's more prevalent on the servers, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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