Proposition of Manaphy being moved down to OU.

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

I would like to propose Manaphy being moved down to OU.

Discuss

[Hedron]

Manaphy is so weak in ubers. HP Electric From Darmanitan OHKOes it.

...okay but really that thing is weak. All it can do it tail glow, but it can't take a hit to save its life.

[Neo]

You're going to need to cite the following:

Pokemon: (Manaphy obviously)

Base Stats:

Common sets:

Checks/Counters

Why it should be moved down:

Effect it will have on the metagame:

Then we'll take this seriously.

[Amethyst]

Access to Hydration/Rest + Calm Mind, Acid Armor

Tail Glow / Scald

I'm all for a lenient metagame

But as strong as Rain teams already are, I don't see this helping, or really being a reasonable addition. I know from watching, um, just about every battle Amy's had, it most certainly can take hits. ^^;

Edit: Ninja'd by ninja.

Regardless of who provides it though, I think that list of potential counters/checks is important.

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

It will be provided, I'm in the process of making another comment.

[Godot]

Um... no?

This thing is the Baton passer from hell, I really am against the idea of moving it out of ubers... use Vaporeon or Gorebyss. >>

[Swimming95]

Definitely not for OU... hydration on it is amazing

It is more bulky than vaporeon ftr, has access to both offensive and defensive moves and thus would become a major threat

[Shanco]

Can't say I agree.

Base 100 across the board,

only two weaknesses none of them uber,

Calm Mind

U-Turn

Acid Armor

HYDRATION

TAIL GLOW

SCALD

ENERGY BALL

OMG!!!!!!!

Yeah, we really don't need to move this anywhere.

[Shanco]

Um... no?

This thing is the Baton passer from hell, I really am against the idea of moving it out of ubers... use Vaporeon or Gorebyss. >>

Manaphy can't learn Baton Pass. Only Volbeat can pass Tail Glow.

[Godot]

Can't say I agree.

Base 100 across the board,

only two weaknesses none of them uber,

Calm Mind

U-Turn

Acid Armor

HYDRATION

TAIL GLOW

SCALD

ENERGY BALL

OMG!!!!!!!

Yeah, we really don't need to move this anywhere.

You forgot Baton Pass, Aqua Ring, and rest

[Swimming95]

One thing to note is that tier discussions do NOT depend on the tier it is leaving for the most part.

just because something does not work well in ubers does in any way shape or form justify putting something too broken in OU. Please remember this when discussing.

Manaphy cannot learn baton pass >.>

[Clouds and Puddles]

I think this is an excellent idea, and here's why.

Manaphy is part of the (100 in every stat) 600 overall base stat club, which also includes pokemon such as Shaymin, Celebi, Mew, Jirachi, and Victini. Notice a trend here? Manaphy is the only one of these pokemon that is banned from the OU tier.

Manaphy is similar to some of these pokemon (Nasty Plot Celebi, Sub+CM Jirachi, and and stat-boosting Mew sets) in its niche in the metagame as a set up sweeper. Manaphy is usually used for its trait, Hydration, and move, Tail Glow. Together, with or without rain support, Manaphy can max out its special attack in just two turns while not fearing any status ailments (in the rain). But surprisingly, even with this, Manaphy is not overpowered.

Why Manaphy is not overpowered:

Movepool:

While Manaphy possesses Tail Glow, its offensive movepool is actually extremely limited. Surf/Scald, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power are its only plausible attacking moves. This means that is countered by many Water-type pokemon such as Rotom-W or Keldeo.

Base Stats:

Like I briefly mentioned above, Manaphy shares the same stats with quite a few other pokemon, all of which are not banned from OU. Base 100 stats in every category means that Manaphy is moderately bulky, moderately powerful, and moderately fast which together form a moderately ‘good’ pokemon rather than one that is overly so.

Effect on the Metagame:

- Manaphy is most powerful as a set up sweeper. In fact, it is so much more potent as a set up sweeper than in any other of its other potential roles that its moveset should always be relatively obvious. This makes it easy for experienced battlers to predict and work around it.

- Manaphy’s Tail Glow + Hydration combnation, although extremely powerful, is not at all overpowered. In fact, one only needs to look as far as Manaphy’s fellow base 600 siblings to see many other powerful ability and move combinations. For example, Victini has access to a 180 power/95 accuracy, STAB boosted move that will never miss because of its ability, Victory Star (which, under the sun and/or with a choice band, will OHKO even resisted pokemon such as Jellicent, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, etc.). Shaymin has a stab 120 base power/85 accuracy move in Seed Flare that has a 40% chance of SHARPLY lowering the opponent’s special defense, while having arguably the best ability in the game in Natural Cure!

- Manaphy is easily checked. Rotom-W, Keldeo, Kingdra, and any other hard-hitting water types are great counters to it.

Balance:

Some of you may question, “Well rain teams are already powerful enough, why introduce yet another pokemon to it?”

Well, the reason Manaphy would not make rain teams even more powerful would be because it has such an awful offensive movepool. Ice Beam and Surf, while powerful special attacks, are already so widespread in the rain game that another yet another pokemon with that combination of moves would be redundant. Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Keldeo are just a few other pokemon that serve the same role as manaphy (set up/late game sweeper) and have the same moveset (surf/hydro pump + ice beam/hp ice). Also, Manaphy shares the same type as Politoed, which would only decrease a rain team’s synergy by providing yet another pokemon that has the strengths and weaknesses of a water type.

In addition, Manaphy would actually introduce balance to the weather-metagame by providing rain with a much-needed powerful set up sweeper. Like the balance between fast, hard hitting pokemon in Rain, Sand, and Sun in Kingdra/Swift Swimmers, Excadrill/Sand Rushers, and Venusaur/Chlorophyll Users, Manaphy would be introduced as a set-up pokemon in rain that is parallel to Sand’s Garchomp and Sun’s Blaziken.

Conclusion: Moving Manaphy to OU would introduce balance to the metagame rather than take it away because 1) it is not overpowered and 2) it fills a role in rain teams that would make it a competitor to sun+sand teams

[Clouds and Puddles]

One more misconception I want to clear up:

Rain is not the most dominant weather. In fact, it's actually far behind of Sand and is on the same level of Sun in terms of the ladder. Of the top 10 current players on the ladder, there are only two rain (one being myself) and two sun (one being myself) users as opposed to the six sand users.

[Swimming95]

Umm... manaphy is also devastating with calm mind to add to its bulk, not only used as a sweeper. It does have acid armor if you prefer

Manaphy can also use energy ball, taking away from your idea of using bulky waters to counter

skymin is banned in OU and shaymin doesn't have any boosters + its typing to make it as viable

Same with victini, v-create lowers its defenses and speed so you aren't likely to get hit twice. SR and the fact that most of the metagame's typing works against it keep it from rising.

Also, I am sorry but you are very mistaken on your claim about weather. And using the "top 10 on the ladder" as your evidence for that is very misleading and quite frankly not a good estimator.

I do appreciate you laying out a well-formed argument like that so I will take the time to address all of the other things you pointed out

Natural cure isn't that amazing, shaymin isn't physical so burn doesn't do too much damage, toxic is well, toxic and would be "reset" upon switching back in and paralyze isn't as useful on a not as fast pokemon. Sleep is sleep Iguess... fine, one status. Hydration is much better as it does not require the turn to move out and the turn to switch back in, rest is an auto full restore which is insanely useful as you need to have a guarenteed 1 or 2 KO in order to beat it.

On that note, it makes scald even more useful as it burns the opponent and thus requiring an even stronger pokemon to beat it. If the calm mind set is used, good luck finding a physical attacker that can beat it.

And again, lol at thinking that rain needs something like manaphy to balance itself. Whilst I do not think weather is OP, I know that there are many who do. Considering that not everyone, certainly not all of the good battlers, ladder, it isn't a good indicator.

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

Base stats:

Health Points: 100

Attack: 100

Defence: 100

Special Attack: 100

Special Defence: 100

Speed: 100

Ability: Hydration

Manaphy is a pokemon that seems to dwell at the bottom end of the Ubers tier, no one really uses this guy at all due to there being many more useful and stronger Pokemon which could fit his role better. Looking at his stats, he looks pretty plain. In fact, he has the exact same stats as pokemon such as Shaymin, Mew, Jirach, Celebi and Victini. Now, Manaphy doesnt have an extremely huge movepool, nice support moves, super haxxing powers or a powerful signature attack. Manaphy has been banished to Ubers due to his Ability; Hydration and it's a very unreliable ability at that. Hydration is an ability that removes the users status condition, making Rest+Hydration a very viable strategy. However, this is only possible when the rain is up.

I believe that Manaphy should be moved down to OU because, to be honest, no one is truly using Manaphy in Ubers due to the fact that its stats simply enough for people to take seriously, with or without an "OP" ability.

Furthermore, his ability is countered 100% by other weathers, including Hail, Sun and Sand, all of which have at least one Pokemon which can bring about these weather conditions simply through switching in.

Below are two of Manaphys most common sets and how they work.

Manaphy @ Life Orb

Trait: Hydration

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Ice Beam

- Surf

- Rest

- Tail Glow

This version of Manaphy is based off using Tail Glow and Rest to boost Manaphys stats to a maximum +6 in a minimum of only two turns. This set requires rain support to work efficiently, as it allows Manaphy to continuously use Rest to come back to full HP.

The attacks of choice are Surf and Ice Beam. Surf is an obligatory stab move boosted by rain, while Ice Beam provides Manaphy with his only coverage move. This set aims to stat boost and sweep in the shortest time, attempting to now allow the opponent time to stop his sweep.

Manaphy @ Leftovers

Trait: Hydration

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd

Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Ice Beam

- Surf

- Rest

- Calm Mind

This version of Manaphy is more laid back, practically a knock-off Sub/CM Latias. The Calm Mind set is more laid back, relying on Manaphys base 100 health, Calm Mind boosting and Rest/Hydraton to tank hits and hit back slowly with his two attacks of choice.

Now, the problem I see with using this Pokemon is opposing weather, taunt users and strong attackers.

Pokemon that you see every day in OU can just take this guy out. I'll list a few checks/counters to Manaphy below;

Weather Inducers;

Ninetails;

Ninetales (M) @ Leftovers

Trait: Drought

EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd

Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)

- Roar

- Flamethrower

- Sunny Day

- Will-O-Wisp

Ninetails can come in on Manaphy with so much ease. While Manaphy goes for a Rest, Tail Glow or Calm Mind, you can easily switch Ninetails in, his amazing special bulk helps him achieve this wonderfully. What more, Drought takes away Manaphy's reliable recovery and halves it's main attacking move. From there you can either phaze Manaphy out or switch to a bulky special wall, such as Chansey, or even a Chlorophyl user like Venusaur on the predicted Surf.

Tyranitar;

Tyranitar @ Leftovers

Trait: Sand Stream

EVs: 252 HP/ 4 Atk / 252 SDef

Careful Nature(+SDef, -SAtk)

- Stealth Rock

- Crunch

- Pursuit

- Stone Edge

Tyranitar is another weather inducer which can easily shut down both sets. Manaphy can either Rest, Calm Mind, Tail Glow or go straight for the Surf, Tyranitar cares not. Sand Stream both shuts down Manaphy and gives him a nifty Special Defence boost, so he can easily take Surfs for days. From here he can set up Stealth Rocks in Manaphys face or even just go straight for the powerful Stone Edge.

Some strong attackers;

Band Terrakion;

Terrakion @ Choice Band

Trait: Justified

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Close Combat

- Stone Edge

Either move Terrakion is locked into has the power to deal a massive chunk out of Manaphy, it has the power to OHKO the Tail Glow set, while still doing around 80-90% to the Calm Mind set.

This will either be updated tomorrow or I will create a new comment with a more in-depth list of Checks and Counters. I would like to thank any Auth for reading so far and hopefully a consideration.

Also; to anyone who may want to counter this with argument, please have the decency not to give me a few lines of bull shit and a give an actual thought-out response. Thank you.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Rupe

[Clouds and Puddles]

@Swimming95

Those are actually very good points (also i was unaware that Manaphy could learn energy ball, but a 252 SPATK Manaphy would only do

Damage: 160 - 190 of 323 HP or

49% - 58% to 0 HP 0 SPDEF Keldeo, which is the least bulky of the offensive water types that I listed and outspeeds Manaphy with Secret Sword or Calm Mind, which would do around 50%).

Also, I'm not saying that Rain isn't good, i'm just saying that it doesn't outclass any other weathers. To address your concern about the ladder not being representative of the reborn's competitive battlers, I would say that I agree- the top 10 of the ladder is not a great sample of the entirety of reborn's competition. However, every ladderer does possess what the other non-laddering battlers lack, which is experience in dealing with the metagame's threats and weathers. In addition, Shaymin with seed flare is VERY viable. With LO, it 2 hit koes 252 hp 252 spdef sassy Tyrannitar in the sand. But other than that, I would agree with most of your other points. However, although they do clarify some areas that I may have missed, I missed your stance on the topic question.

So, what I would like to ask you is this: Is Manaphy overpowered in OU?

Keep in mind that many of the common counters for rain teams (Rotom-W, Celebi (Most sets do not take +40% from Ice Beam), Keldeo, Ferrothorn, etc) also serve as counters for Manaphy.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Clouds and Puddles

[Neo]

Manaphy can easily deal with Rotom-W and Keldeo. Next.

[Swimming95]

As I said, scald is a probably better alternative to surf as it lessens the threat from physical attackers

Again, an argument for why manaphy isn't good in ubers is so incredibly moot that you might as well not be posting... it isn't about how manaphy fares in ubers, only about how it fares in OU

Tyrantitar definitely can't take surf "for days," and I doubt it would survive well if it even got up 1 tail glow

Yes, terakion would be a good counter... 1 pokemon and 1 set... 80-90% is good, if we are running acid armor, it won't do enough but that is also one set on manaphy's side. But, 80-90% still allows a rest to let terakion lower its defenses and sp. defenses to get a nice attack in or switch out (and terakion would do the same)

Ferrothorn is also a nice pokemon ot switch in on but if it gets burned, its pretty useless. Rotom-W is ok, granted not for calm mind sets

Rain is pretty much a given with manaphy and I agree without rain, it isn't as good... But weather inducers are much more of a check than a counter to manaphy. Do not forget that the other person can switch back into their politioad as easily as you can switch into your ninetails. Weather is not a perfect counter for weather.

Also, stealth rocks alone won't do much to manaphy as its major ability involves healing...

[Clouds and Puddles]

Yeah Rupe i think you need to revise your checks list. Also, Neo, is there any reason why Manaphy can "easily deal with Rotom-W and Keldeo"? If you're going to contribute to this argument, please support your statements. Otherwise, your comments are pretty much spam.

Swimming: Is Manaphy overpowered in OU?

Keep in mind that many of the common counters for rain teams (Rotom-W, Celebi (Most sets do not take +40% from Ice Beam), Keldeo, Ferrothorn, etc) also serve as counters for Manaphy.

[Godot]

I am seriosly not seeing why Downgrading. Manaphy would be benificial to the metagame... you guys are trying to play off manaphy as not being as Uber as let's say Kyrougre... I am also not seeing how this would balance the metagame, Rain is alsreadly as good as it is, we gave you guys kingdra, ferrothorn, Genosect, vaporeon, therian Tornadus, ludicolo and more... and yet you want him/her... how is adding the most over used and abused weathertype in the game a new toy?

Also... you guys keep trying to convince us how mediocre it is... why do you want it so damn badly when it is apparently /bleh?

[Godot]

oh ya... erick doesn't have to explain himself... Swiminng already did it >>

[Voctrode]

Arceus-Poison for OU

[Hyouka]

Groudon for.OU

[Shanco]

Yeah Rupe i think you need to revise your checks list. Also, Neo, is there any reason why Manaphy can "easily deal with Rotom-W and Keldeo"? If you're going to contribute to this argument, please support your statements. Otherwise, your comments are pretty much spam.

Ha-hey whhoooaaa dude, no need to get bent out of shape! Manaphy gets Energy Ball along with its Tail Glow. That DOES let Manaphy easily deal with Rotom-W and Keldeo. Also noting that most Manaphy sets run that cherished Tail Glow, it will more often than not easily OHKO every Pokemon without a specially defensive focus (I'm talking about like in base stats, you know, Blissey family, Virizion, 'Gonal, etc). Rotom-W and Keldeo both bow before a boosted Energy Ball; Celebi dies a quick Signal Beam or Ice Beam death after Tail Glow; and it's not uncommon to see a Manaphy with Hidden Power [Fire] to make sure Ferrothorn doesn't get in the way, even if we ARE talking about Ubers. But then again, why are you pitting it against Ferro in the first place?

So...yeah. Manaphy would be overpowered in OU.

[The Fush]

Just my two cents on this:

For all those saying things like "taunt counters tail glow and calm mind", "manaphy can't take down this guy in 1 hit", etc etc, I think a lot of you are disregarding when to USE Manaphy in a battle. Remember folks, strategy counts here, and this is the sort of thing where you should know, for example, when an enemy will have taunt, and then you switch out Manaphy and then get out a more appropiate pokemon to counter.

What I'm saying is, saying Manaphy can be countered by this or that is backfiring on yourself also, since if YOU KNOW that that pokemon can counter Manaphy, you're obviously going to counter accordingly, like say, Manaphy switching out from a taunt user and going into Ubers: Palkia, Zekrom, or say, OU: Kingdra or ST Chandy.

Consider the thought process behind how you're using Manaphy effectively before pointing out counters that Manaphy users might be prepared for.