Theory about E18

[Amphibi]

Before you read this, know that this topic will spoil a lot of key plot points in the game. You have been warned.

 

 

 

Episode 18 is going to be big story wise. We'll get to fight either Saphira or Hardy and some pulses (not sure if Eclipse shutting down the pulse kills it or not, the pulse blocking off the entrance to Labradorra and the pulse that is putting Agate to sleep). This means fighting whoever is behind these operations. A few names come to mind. Lin, Solaris, Sigmund, Sirius, Elias, Bennet, Taka, Blake, Fern, maybe we'll even fight Terra again. But I think we'll have to fight someone else, someone who we've known for a long time.

 

Spoiler

I suspect that Cain will betray us. I know, seems weird. One of, if not, the friendliest characters in the game working with Team Meteor but I have my suspicions that he's not as friendly as he seems. Here's a few points to back up my theory.

- Cain actually helps Team Meteor by blocking off Yureyu while running away. Whether this was accidental or not is yet to be seen but it bought Team Meteor time.

- In a lot of encounters with Team Meteor Cain either gets captured, defeated or does nothing. It happens first at Azurine Island when he is crossing with his Muk. He doesn't accomplish much at Pyrous Mountain. He not only is useless in the fight at Citae Arc d'Astrae, but he has a disposition towards Elias and (almost) convinces us to side with him. He also gets captured again in Subsanctum Seven.

- What makes me even more suspicious is that he also goes against an Elite Four member (Elias) and wins. I'm just guessing that he wins because what would've happened if he lost? Killed or captured? Yet Cain tries to infiltrate Subseven Sactum as well so he either ran like hell when he lost or maybe he didn't fight at all..

- He traveled through Agate all the way to Ametrine and back to Route 1 before the Pulse Avalugg or Pulse whatever is putting Agate to sleep. While also keeping up with a girl flying on a Salamence.

- How did Cain get past the barrier in Tanzan Cave? It was up when we got to Tanzan Cave until Saphira destroyed it. There's no other way to Route 1 except through the Grand Gates which were closed at the time.

- When Anna looks at Cain she says that he appears to have pitch black eyes that are like black holes into his soul. We can assume most of what Anna says like Charlotte's burn scars being her trauma or Saphira having a hole in her chest is her being emotionless but there doesn't seem to be anything about Cain yet.

- In the bible Adam and Eve have two sons, Cain and Abel. Long story short Cain kills Abel and God punishes Cain to a life of wandering. This isn't what made me think that Cain's a traitor but I find the coincidence amusing.

- There's too many people on our side. Julia, Florina, Titania, Charlotte, Laura, Anna, Noel, Hardy, Saphira are most likely going to fight against Team Meteor at some point in the next episode. Cal, Shelly, Heather, Amaria, Radomus, Shade, Victoria, Arclight, Adrienn, Serra, Aster, Simon, the police force or even the general public could jump in to help us. And while I definitely expect a few character deaths next episode it's not enough to balance the sides. Lin can't kill everyone, can she? 

 

My theory is that Cain isn't just a Team Meteor member. I think we would've found out about that by now. I think he's a spy that was hired by Lin to track potentially threatening targets (like the player and Heather) and dispose of them if necessary. That's why he appears to fight Team Meteor at times and fights them when he has to. His position would hypothetically be extremely confidential. I think he will show his true colours very soon now that Team Meteor is under the impression that we have all the keys beside the Emerald Brooch, which is already in their possession.

 

Would like to have some discussion around this. I know that there are quite a few points against my theory but it sounds solid enough to me so go ahead and try to disprove it.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Amphibi
corrected more minor details

[Egzample]

24 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

Episode 18 is going to be big story wise. I think we'll get to fight both Saphira and Hardy

Iirc, next episode = one leader, last episode = last leader + E4 + postgame content.

 

21 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

Lin can't kill everyone, can she?

She can. Except the chars which didn't die in real life.

 

23 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

I suspect that Cain will betray us.

Nah. EOT.

 

 

P.S.: Surprise us, Ame.

[Just2Reborn]

oooh, a lot of people will get mad if this turns out to be true.

 

Spoiler

Honestly I love this prediction. I wandered myself too if Cain could be bad, but never found any substantial evidence. But THIS, THIS is amazing. Don't forget though, Ame's always one step ahead.

 

[Gentleman Jaggi]

20 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

In a lot of encounters with Team Meteor Cain either gets captured, defeated or does nothing. It happens first at Azurine Island when he is crossing with his Muk. He doesn't accomplish much at Pyrous Mountain. He not only is useless in the fight at Citae Arc d'Astrae, but he has a disposition towards Elias and (almost) convinces us to side with him. He also gets captured again in Subsanctum Seven.

To be fair, a lot of people don't do a whole lot whenever the protagonist is around. Amaria and Florinia accomplish nothing during the Obsidia Tangrowth incident, Shelly hides during the attack on Belrose Manse, Adrienn is just as useless against El as Cain is - those are just the ones that come to mind right now. Since this is a game it naturally often ends with us doing the work. He also didn't have any dispostiion towards El, nor tried to influence our opinion, he was just absolutely confused. Rightfully so, since the whole situation makes not a lick of sense if you don't already know what's going on and Radomus was being about as suspicious as he could be.

20 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

What makes me even more suspicious is that he also goes against an Elite Four member (Elias) and wins. I'm just guessing that he wins because what would've happened if he lost? Killed or captured? Yet Cain tries to infiltrate Subseven Sactum as well so he either ran like hell when he lost or maybe he didn't fight at all..

He doesn't win. He just buys some time, loses, and is then then taking hostage. El has Bennett bring him in to threaten the protagonist once you arrive at the sanctum's altar.

22 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

He traveled through Agate all the way to Ametrine and back to Route 1 before the Pulse Avalugg or Pulse whatever is putting Agate to sleep. While also keeping up with a girl flying on a Salamence.

- How did Cain get past the barrier in Tanzan Cave? It was up when we got to Tanzan Cave until Saphira destroyed it. There's no other way to Route 1 except through the Grand Gates which were closed at the time.

The timespan of events is pretty ambigious; we just have no idea how long any of this could have taken. The Agate situation seems to be pretty recent, as iirc there's never any mention of it until we reach Route 1, so it's not out of the question that he may have been able to get through and back before it got closed off.

NPCs using pathways that don't exist for the player isn't really something out of the ordinary. It's kind of a bother when you start thinking about it, but it's one of those things in games that just sort of happen.

23 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

When Anna looks at Cain she says that he appears to have pitch black eyes that are like black holes into his soul. We can assume most of what Anna says like Charlotte's burn scars being her trauma or Saphira having a hole in her chest is her being emotionless but there doesn't seem to be anything about Cain yet.

Anna also thinks those black eyes of his are cool, if they were hinting at something sinister about him I'd wager she'd be unsettled by it. Remember she likes Shade, despite just about everyone else being rather creeped out by him. Besides, we don't even know what those "visions" of her really are. There's some hints that they could show the person's "true nature" or the like, such as the protagonist glowing or Lin being not actually there, but with visions like Cain or Saphira it could also be more literal or hint at things thar are going to happen. That'd mean Cain's gonna get Chandelure'd nuuu...

25 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

There's too many people on our side. Julia, Florina, Titania, Charlotte, Laura, Anna, Noel, Hardy, Saphira are most likely going to fight against Team Meteor at some point in the next episode. Cal, Shelly, Heather, Amaria, Radomus, Shade, Victoria, Arclight, Adrienn, Serra, Aster, Simon, the police force or even the general public could jump in to help us. And while I definitely expect a few character deaths next episode it's not enough to balance the sides. Lin can't kill everyone, can she? 

Team Meteor is essentially an extremely localised terror organization, so them being vastly outnumbered is to be expected. Our number of allies mostly stems from the league's scope and the fact that these people are actually taking action like you'd expect them to unlike those in most other regions.

 

 

An interesting theory anyway, though I don't think there's really anything hinting at it. It would get quite a reaction out of a lot of people though.

[FairFamily]

6 minutes ago, GS BALL said:

No? Poison is one of the weakest types. Him losing and getting captured isn't strange. Also, he isn't hard, but carefree and singing all the time, as a character. This type of people can't accomplish much. Don't forget besides, Victoria accomplished even less and abandoned her errand, given by her beloved Sensei who also died, midway, too... Not everyone is cut out to become an elite trainer. Cut the secondary characters some slack.

 

Some people also guesstimate that Florinia can betray us, as well. They get suspicious and jumpy, but that is also a plus for Reborn (engaging story). Titania isn't a friend, she acts of her own interests, with her own methods and rules and she likes to draw borders and distance. Amaria is a... Well, whatever.

 

We are pretty much on our own. Those with many people around them, are usually alone.

Wait Florinia?!? Isn't she the person in the review (which seems to be dying) ? So how iis she going to betray us.

 

Also the biggest issue I have with this cain betraying us thing is that Cain had so much opportunities to get us killed or captured but didn't. I mean he easily could have disposed of everyone of the oprhan group + the mc by stabbing us in the back when we invaded the old yureyei building. Noone would have known.

 

 

[FairFamily]

1 minute ago, GS BALL said:

There is a value for both Fern and Florinia death... But nothing is certain; at least yet.

Fern?! now I'm missing something.

[Rainlove]

Spoiler

This is actually an amazing interpretation, and I can see it happening!. I'll be upset of course because I really like Cain, but come to think of it, how come he wasn't killed or captured by Elias?. I think episode 18 will be amazing!

 

[dotahkin01]

@Gentleman Jaggi

@Amphibi

 

Regarding his moving through ageta and too the other cities:

Spoiler

It is mentioned that only after cain moves through ametrine mountain to the snowcity, the Avalugg pulse isn't there yet. (though by cain himself i believe). The child with blake mentions that food is not coming into town anymore, which would mean it was coming to town at the time she arrived.

Though i'm not sure why it was that the path was blocked by the avalugg, its also mentioned that only after the avalugg the mistermum pulse is set in place.

 

Anyways, I'd be really suprised if Cain would betray the protoganist. Mostly because Anna seems to take a huge liking (loving) towards Cain and Anna is hinted to have certain powers / knowledge, for example regarding Shade.

[Amphibi]

1 hour ago, example said:

Iirc, next episode = one leader, last episode = last leader + E4 + postgame content.

Fixed

37 minutes ago, Gentleman Jaggi said:

To be fair, a lot of people don't do a whole lot whenever the protagonist is around. Amaria and Florinia accomplish nothing during the Obsidia Tangrowth incident, Shelly hides during the attack on Belrose Manse, Adrienn is just as useless against El as Cain is - those are just the ones that come to mind right now. Since this is a game it naturally often ends with us doing the work. He also didn't have any dispostiion towards El, nor tried to influence our opinion, he was just absolutely confused. Rightfully so, since the whole situation makes not a lick of sense if you don't already know what's going on and Radomus was being about as suspicious as he could be.

You got me with Amy and Rini but Shelly and the others were told to hide by a woman who I don't think anyone wants to argue with. Adrienn just got unstuck in time and doesn't know either party. I get that Radomus was being suspicious but so was El. He ran away, tried to steal the rings and stopped like a cornered criminal. Cain did know what was going on, he either got tricked or he tricked us into thinking that he got tricked. I just looked over the scene and he sounded slightly against Radomus but he was more confused than anything.

1 hour ago, Gentleman Jaggi said:

He doesn't win. He just buys some time, loses, and is then then taking hostage. El has Bennett bring him in to threaten the protagonist once you arrive at the sanctum's altar.

Ok, that clears things up, didn't read that properly then. While there's a pretty wide timespan for Tanzan events Cain's movements are still very suspicious to me.

1 hour ago, Gentleman Jaggi said:

NPCs using pathways that don't exist for the player isn't really something out of the ordinary. It's kind of a bother when you start thinking about it, but it's one of those things in games that just sort of happen.

I don't remember any other weird pathings that can't be explained by plot in Reborn though.

1 hour ago, Gentleman Jaggi said:

Anna also thinks those black eyes of his are cool, if they were hinting at something sinister about him I'd wager she'd be unsettled by it.

I don't think that Anna's the type of person who gets unsettled easily.

1 hour ago, GS BALL said:

No? Poison is one of the weakest types. Him losing and getting captured isn't strange. Also, he isn't hard, but carefree and singing all the time, as a character. This type of people can't accomplish much. Don't forget besides, Victoria accomplished even less and abandoned her errand, given by her beloved Sensei who also died, midway, too... Not everyone is cut out to become an elite trainer. Cut the secondary characters some slack.

Corey is a pretty tough leader for being a weak type then. In my opinion bug and rock are weaker types than poison but I think Bennet's gonna come back soon enough and I doubt he'll be weak. Hardy is also one of, if not the highest ranked gym leaders in Reborn. I don't think Cain is suspicious just because he's useless sometimes. He's actually harmful if you think about it. He gave Team Meteor time to plan for our attack on Yureyu and if it weren't for us he would've indirectly had a hand in offing Heather.

1 hour ago, GS BALL said:

Titania isn't a friend, she acts of her own interests

While she isn't really a friend she at least helped us fight Team Meteor (although in self interest) and saves us from Amaria in the path of truth.

1 hour ago, FairFamily said:

Also the biggest issue I have with this cain betraying us thing is that Cain had so much opportunities to get us killed or captured but didn't. I mean he easily could have disposed of everyone of the oprhan group + the mc by stabbing us in the back when we invaded the old yureyei building. Noone would have known.

But Lin wouldn't have gotten what she wanted. Since I doubt they know about Radomus keeping the Amethyst Pendant Lin probably thinks that we have all four rings. Why else would she want us to take the Sapphire Bracelets? Plus Team Meteor could've killed all the children whether Cain's a traitor or not. I don't think killing people is their objective.

1 hour ago, Gentleman Jaggi said:

I don't think there's really anything hinting at it

and that's why it would make such a good plot twist.

[Amphibi]

10 minutes ago, GS BALL said:

@Amphibi 

 

You 've got a bunch of valid points there... But still; even Aya was captured. Poison IS weak (?) ! Ever since the old days...

Although the poison type trainers are weak in Reborn poison as a type has gotten much better over the years. It has a niche in countering fairies that is only shared with steel. They also have 100% accuracy with toxic and a key immunity to poisoning.

[Walpurgis]

12 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

I don't remember any other weird pathings that can't be explained by plot in Reborn though

Victoria getting to Apophyll even before the player.

8 minutes ago, GS BALL said:

You 've got a bunch of valid points there... But still; even Aya was captured. Poison IS weak (?) ! Ever since the old days...

To be fair his team changed a bit in E17, now the only poison types he has are Alolan Muk and Nidoking. (He still has got a meh team, though: Meowstic (female), Primarina, A-Muk, A-Marowak, Mimikyu and Nidoking)

[Gentleman Jaggi]

12 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

You got me with Amy and Rini but Shelly and the others were told to hide by a woman who I don't think anyone wants to argue with. Adrienn just got unstuck in time and doesn't know either party.

Shelly's still a Gym Leader and more than capable enough to take on a bunch of Meteor goons. In-universe she was just too damn submissive to speak up to Saphira, the out-of-universe reason was likely so players would be on their own for the battle against Sirius/Sigmund.

13 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

I don't remember any other weird pathings that can't be explained by plot in Reborn though.

Victoria getting to Apophyll or Fern getting to Route 1 ahead of the player are other points I remember right now. It's been some time, I might find more.

Additionally there's stuff like Cain using Muk to cross Azurine Lake; even if the player has their own Muk, we can't do that because it's a story action that's exclusive to an NPC in a certain scene and gameplay will not allow us to imitate that.

14 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

While she isn't really a friend she at least helped us fight Team Meteor (although in self interest) and saves us from Amaria in the path of truth.

Yeah, the player doesn't exactly get a good start with Titania, although she seems to be softening up somewhat during Ep17. She's still definitely acting against Team Meteor and is therefore an ally though.

14 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

and that's why it would make such a good plot twist.

Some might call it twist, others might call it ass pull. The best twists are those that have hints that are only recognisable once you know the truth. Otherwise they run the risk of being either too obvious or too out of left field for the player to feel okay with.

8 minutes ago, GS BALL said:

even Aya was captured. Poison IS weak (?) ! Ever since the old days...

Aya just came out of a pretty grueling 12vs10 Double Match with likely most of her team being out; plus she literally saved the protagonist's life there so what the hell dude?

And even ignoring that your point is still irrelevant, because in-universe what matters more than the choice of type is the abilities of the trainer. (Arguably that still holds true for gameplay - i.e. everyone doing challenge runs of any sort - but characters in-story have a lot more freedom with this sort of thing than we players, who are bound to gameplay.

[Amphibi]

23 minutes ago, walpurgis said:

Victoria getting to Apophyll even before the player.

To be fair his team changed a bit in E17, now the only poison types he has are Alolan Muk and Nidoking. (He still has got a meh team, though: Meowstic (female), Primarina, A-Muk, A-Marowak, Mimikyu and Nidoking)

But she doesn't. We see her after Shade's gym battle and she says Cain went down to Coral Ward. While we're fighting in Blackstream Factory with Amaria Victoria must have either 

- used her connections (Ame) to get to Apophyll

- quickly trained a Muk/pulled a Muk out of one of her PC boxes/borrowed someone's Muk and used it to get across but didn't mess up and get captured like Cain

 

When we go to Kiki's room after meeting her for the first time Victoria runs up and says how she finally here and stuff

 

Cain's team is pretty good besides the Meowstic. It is a bit slow, maybe he'll replace it for an Alakazam or something

 

@Gentleman Jaggi

 

It's never said when Fern joins Team Meteor. He could've just taken a helicopter over from one of their bases or was let through the wall blocking Route 1 in Tanan

Edited January 10, 2018 by Amphibi
Cause Fern

[Gentleman Jaggi]

21 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

But she doesn't. We see her after Shade's gym battle and she says Cain went down to Coral Ward. While we're fighting in Blackstream Factory with Amaria Victoria must have either 

- used her connections (Ame) to get to Apophyll

- quickly trained a Muk/pulled a Muk out of one of her PC boxes/borrowed someone's Muk and used it to get across but didn't mess up and get captured like Cain

 

When we go to Kiki's room after meeting her for the first time Victoria runs up and says how she finally here and stuff

Blackstream factory probably didn't take longer than a few hours tops (can't excatly spend days raiding a terrorist base on your own) plus however long it takes to get from one end of the city to the next one by foot/bike. Victoria similarly would have needed some time to get in contact with somebody or to train that Muk. And then she'd be either travelling some path inaccessible to us or travelling the same as us around the same timeframe but with no trace of her to be seen along the way.

What we see ingame is just a downscaled portrayal of a much larger world causing details irrelevant to the story to be lost. There's only one path, because that path is the one the story leads us on. That doesn't exactly connect to the previous thing with Victoria but point is: assume there are other paths that people can take, but which do not show up because they are not part of the story's progression. Team Meteor for example likely has many secret ways through the city only accessible to them, but they're never shown because the player does not know them and the story never leads us there. So whenever they show up somewhere that you'd normally have trouble getting to the natural assumption is "they've got their own ways to get around."

33 minutes ago, Amphibi said:

It's never said when Fern joins Team Meteor. He could've just taken a helicopter over from one of their bases or was let through the wall blocking Route 1 in Tanan

I feel like Fern would probably try to rub that in our face the first chance he gets, since he's basically attention whoring us the whole time, but I'll give you that that's a possibility.

[Zane0144]

I don't think Lin could think we have every key. Elias and by extension Team Meteor took the Emerald Brooch from Luna

[Lost Lore]

11 hours ago, Amphibi said:

It's never said when Fern joins Team Meteor. He could've just taken a helicopter over from one of their bases or was let through the wall blocking Route 1 in Tanan

 

Nope, he straight up says the guards in the gate to Agate are asleep, which I imagine would not bother him at all if he could have just had Meteor let him in. (Or at least, certainly not enough to bother to mention them.) I could be wrong, but it doesn't really line up well.

 

I feel like his way to Route 1 and Cain apparently having a way to Ametrine are just a case of gameplay and story segregation more than anything else. But I won't discount this theory pertaining to Cain. Because, well, who can say for sure?

[Amphibi]

13 hours ago, Zane0144 said:

I don't think Lin could think we have every key. Elias and by extension Team Meteor took the Emerald Brooch from Luna

This is right. I figured Elias took another pendant but I thought Radomus recovered that for us too. So by Elias being with Team Meteor Lin already has a pendant. We have the Ruby Ring and the Sapphire Bracelets and entrusted Radomus with the Amethyst Pendant. Lin likely thinks that we have every key besides the Emerald Brooch because she last thing she would've received intel on is that Elias lost the Amethyst Pendant.

 

As for Fern, maybe he's rich enough/has enough connections to hire some method of flight to get to Route 1.

[GenEric]

i just prefer enjoying the game rather than theorizing it

just wait and see what ame has for us in the next episode

[Alaris]

23 hours ago, GS BALL said:

There is a value for both Fern and Florinia death... But nothing is certain; at least yet.

Are you referring to relationship values? If so, the next time, could you please say it with spoilers? That it because some players (me included) may not want to get such things spoiled since -I believe, I could be wrong- such parameters can't be normally consulted in the normal game. Thanks very much for understanding!

 

About the theory of Cain's betrayal... I'm not sure. Well, to be honest, I don't think so. I'd rather think of Florinia as the betrayer (as discussed in other topics) due to certain foreseeing. But then again --who knows. It could even depend on the unraveling of the events of the path we're in.