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Reborn characters Hurt/Heal (post E17)

Jess

By Jess
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Alistair

Alistair

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1 hour ago, Norm said:

I like this post, and can definitely see where the nuance comes from, but the problem I have with Amaria (and to a lesser extent, Titania) is that the writing doesn't make it seem like the traits mentioned are two sides of the same coin. Sociopath Amaria speaks and acts nothing like the Amaria we knew, which implies that the previous Amaria was indeed a mask. Unlike many tragic heroes, I don't think Amaria has any conflicting motivations. In the diary, she only does things to be the beacon her status needs her to be. She evidently doesn't value Titania's friendship because she willingly lets her clingyness corrode her friend. In actuality, I used to sort of feel bad for Amaria because she's somebody who tries to cheer everyone around her, yet has nobody to support her. However, E17 chooses to retcon those motivations and replace them with the toxic, sadistic motivations that are evident now. It feels like a really cheap Yandere schtick than an actually conflicted individual, and her (along with Corey) inadvertently paint mental psychosis in a rather negative light.

I thought pretty much the same thing at first, waaay back when I played E17's story and saw the Reshiram route: "Wtf, this is Amaria? Where does this come from?" And tbh... that's kinda true. It was a sudden twist. Too sudden perhaps, so it didn't help build up Amy as a conflicted character. Her school diary did mention that she's good at faking happiness though, so we could have seen the brutal change coming. Her fall and subsequent amnesia acted as a "reset" that knocked her back to a more unstable state, and that's how we got to see the "bad" Amaria.

 

I wouldn't call her sadistic though. Her gym dialogue made clear that she does blame herself a lot for the current situation, and that she's aware that she's dragging a person who doesnt really love her down. She keeps clinging to Tania, and hurting her, because she doesn't know what else to do. Tania's her entire world. She can't leave her, at least not on her own. Think about it, they've lived together in a relatively remote Mansion for years, with Amy not going out much... that's the perfect situation to let her insecurities worsen over time. She believes she can't be happy without Tania, since she is the only one who ever tried to keep her afloat. So the only other option left in order to set Tania free is suicide, and well, Amy tries just that. The diary thing is just an excuse to punish herself for what she already knew. It's not even the first time either, if we are to take her dialogue at face value she tried 18 times... poor girl. Amy doesn't deliberately aim to hurt Tania, which is what a sadistic person would do, but she's desperate and selfish enough to drag down the only person she truly cares about, that's for sure.

 

I think Amy and Corey painting psychological problems in a negative light is kind of intentional, to show how destructive they can be, not only to the people afflicted but also to their families and friends. The trade-off is that it does make Amy and Corey appear as pretty nasty people... Looking beyond that though, it's easy enough to see how Reborn is full of victims much more than monsters.

 

For Radomus, indeed he already knew that El was evil before Gardevoir being kidnapped, but that's not what he wanted to verify imo. He must have suspected that El was after something other than Luna herself. Thanks to the Citae d'Astrae trip, he discovered that El was looking for the keys to open Arceus' landing site, and that the Amethyst Pendant, Ruby Ring and Emerald Brooch are 3 of these (he already knew that the Pendant was something important before, since he seemed to be familiar with this item and wanted to keep it, but he didn't say anything about Luna's Emerald Brooch so he might not have known what the 4 keys were, and what their purpose was exactly).

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Norm

Norm

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2 hours ago, Alistair said:

I thought pretty much the same thing at first, waaay back when I played E17's story and saw the Reshiram route: "Wtf, this is Amaria? Where does this come from?" And tbh... that's kinda true. It was a sudden twist. Too sudden perhaps, so it didn't help build up Amy as a conflicted character. Her school diary did mention that she's good at faking happiness though, so we could have seen the brutal change coming. Her fall and subsequent amnesia acted as a "reset" that knocked her back to a more unstable state, and that's how we got to see the "bad" Amaria.

 

I wouldn't call her sadistic though. Her gym dialogue made clear that she does blame herself a lot for the current situation, and that she's aware that she's dragging a person who doesnt really love her down. She keeps clinging to Tania, and hurting her, because she doesn't know what else to do. Tania's her entire world. She can't leave her, at least not on her own. Think about it, they've lived together in a relatively remote Mansion for years, with Amy not going out much... that's the perfect situation to let her insecurities worsen over time. She believes she can't be happy without Tania, since she is the only one who ever tried to keep her afloat. So the only other option left in order to set Tania free is suicide, and well, Amy tries just that. The diary thing is just an excuse to punish herself for what she already knew. It's not even the first time either, if we are to take her dialogue at face value she tried 18 times... poor girl. Amy doesn't deliberately aim to hurt Tania, which is what a sadistic person would do, but she's desperate and selfish enough to drag down the only person she truly cares about, that's for sure.

 

I think Amy and Corey painting psychological problems in a negative light is kind of intentional, to show how destructive they can be, not only to the people afflicted but also to their families and friends. The trade-off is that it does make Amy and Corey appear as pretty nasty people... Looking beyond that though, it's easy enough to see how Reborn is full of victims much more than monsters.

 

For Radomus, indeed he already knew that El was evil before Gardevoir being kidnapped, but that's not what he wanted to verify imo. He must have suspected that El was after something other than Luna herself. Thanks to the Citae d'Astrae trip, he discovered that El was looking for the keys to open Arceus' landing site, and that the Amethyst Pendant, Ruby Ring and Emerald Brooch are 3 of these (he already knew that the Pendant was something important before, since he seemed to be familiar with this item and wanted to keep it, but he didn't say anything about Luna's Emerald Brooch so he might not have known what the 4 keys were, and what their purpose was exactly).

I simply don't believe that Amaria's psychosis excuses the things she is doing. On my first playthrough of E17, I thought that Amaria was only just realizing how toxic her relationship with Titania is. But, her recent memories were already wiped, which implies that Amaria is cognizant of her toxic nature and let's Titania take a dive for an easy out, which is exactly what makes me disgusted by her actions. With this new information, you can formulate that all of Amaria's past suicide attempts weren't because of despair, but a tactic to guilt Titania into staying with her, a method she has used 17 other times. Amaria's really just a terrible friend when you get down to it. Titania isn't either, because she only maintains the status quo and refuses to try to actually help Amaria... even after 17 suicide attempts. 

 

Corey's another character I hate because he has basically zero redeeming qualities. In the brief time that we know Corey we learn that

- He is a deadbeat father

- He is a terrorist whose actions caused death and widespread destruction

- He blames the player for his poor decision-making and subsequently tries to murder us

- He works for the very organization that killed his wife

 The crazy thing about Corey is that he believes that he is justified in all of these actions. Corey neglects his parental duties and actively takes a job that harms innocents solely so he can keep his wife's keepsake, even though Team Meteor literally has no reason to let Corey keep the ring. The worst part is that the game tries to make me sympathize with the main who had previously blamed me for everything wrong in his life 10 minutes ago. Corey is a jerkface. Maybe he gets points because Shade made him a meme

 

 

The characters I genuinely like are people like Cain. While they both have their flaws, they are able to work past them. Cain, lewd jokes aside, is somebody who always wants others to be happy. A lot of his actions, specifically trying to help the orphans, directly coincide with this sentiment. While leaving Aya with his rightful responsibilities was kinda bad, he never tries to underscore what he did and chooses to continue helping others. I like Cain because he is consistent, and while he may at first seem annoying, grows to be a very reliable companion in the journey. Cain also exemplifies what I think is fitting of a more mature Pokemon story: something more grounded in reality.

 

 

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Alistair

Alistair

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@Norm Oh I'm absolutely not saying that Amaria's actions should be excused or that she's a "good" person; she isn't, or at least hasn't been in a long time. But I like to understand characters before pinning the blame on them, and well, both her and Tania are very interesting people to study.

 

Same for Corey, all the reasons you have to dislike him are perfectly valid, and tbh the player has little to no reasons to find him excuses. Only thing I would add is that he doesn't necessarily believe that he's justified in his actions. He's more self-aware than that and hates himself for what he is. He knows that everything he's doing is just plain wrong and that he's selfish af. He's just so desperate that he doesn't really care and has lost all will to redeem himself; all he cares about is clinging to the memories of his wife, and keeping his daughter safe to some extent (something he completely fails at anyway).

Gotta give him maybe one redeeming quality: he somehow managed to raise Heather to be an E4 member while being only a low-ranking leader himself. Lol.

 

Cain's awesome. No debates here as far as I'm concerned; he's also one of my favorite characters.

 

Cain: 27

Adrienn: 12

Aya: 22

Ciel: 12

Florinia: 25

Hardy: 25

Julia: 26

Kiki: 21

Luna: 18

Noel: 15

Samson: 26

Shade: 26

Shelly: 25
Anna: 22

DJ Arclight: 17

Cal: 27

Laura: 26

ZEL: 22

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Chim

Chim

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The best character died long ago. Rip Radomus. 

 

Cain: 25

Adrienn: 12

Aya: 21

Ciel: 12

Florinia: 23

Hardy: 26

Julia: 24

Kiki: 21

Luna: 18

Noel: 13

Samson: 26

Shade: 25

Shelly: 25

Anna: 23

DJ Arclight: 17

Cal: 28

Laura: 27

ZEL: 23

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Azeria

Azeria

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5 hours ago, Alistair said:

@Norm Oh I'm absolutely not saying that Amaria's actions should be excused or that she's a "good" person; she isn't, or at least hasn't been in a long time. But I like to understand characters before pinning the blame on them, and well, both her and Tania are very interesting people to study.

 

Same for Corey, all the reasons you have to dislike him are perfectly valid, and tbh the player has little to no reasons to find him excuses. Only thing I would add is that he doesn't necessarily believe that he's justified in his actions. He's more self-aware than that and hates himself for what he is. He knows that everything he's doing is just plain wrong and that he's selfish af. He's just so desperate that he doesn't really care and has lost all will to redeem himself; all he cares about is clinging to the memories of his wife, and keeping his daughter safe to some extent (something he completely fails at anyway).

Gotta give him maybe one redeeming quality: he somehow managed to raise Heather to be an E4 member while being only a low-ranking leader himself. Lol.

 

Cain's awesome. No debates here as far as I'm concerned; he's also one of my favorite characters.

 

Cain: 27

Adrienn: 12

Aya: 22

Ciel: 12

Florinia: 25

Hardy: 25

Julia: 26

Kiki: 21

Luna: 18

Noel: 15

Samson: 26

Shade: 26

Shelly: 25
Anna: 22

DJ Arclight: 17

Cal: 27

Laura: 26

ZEL: 22

What do you mean raised, basically all of her Pokemon are her mother's l o l.

 

Cain: 25

Adrienn: 12

Aya: 21

Ciel: 12

Florinia: 23

Hardy: 27

Julia: 24

Kiki: 21

Luna: 16

Noel: 11

Samson: 26

Shade: 25

Shelly: 26

Anna: 23

DJ Arclight: 17

Cal: 28

Laura: 27

ZEL: 23

 

RIP basically all my fave chars. Hardy's the last that remains of my top 5.

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Azeria

Azeria

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15 minutes ago, Alistair said:

I don't remember reading anything like this in the game but let's say I'm trusting you

Nearly 100% sure her Salamence is her mum's, so I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of her team is too.

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Dragoknight

Dragoknight

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@Alistair Damn. If anyone asks me why I like Titania/Amaria, I should just direct them to your post. Also, I don't remember where, but I do remember something along the lines of Heather inheriting her pokemon from her mother.

 

14 hours ago, Norm said:

I simply don't believe that Amaria's psychosis excuses the things she is doing. On my first playthrough of E17, I thought that Amaria was only just realizing how toxic her relationship with Titania is. But, her recent memories were already wiped, which implies that Amaria is cognizant of her toxic nature and let's Titania take a dive for an easy out, which is exactly what makes me disgusted by her actions. With this new information, you can formulate that all of Amaria's past suicide attempts weren't because of despair, but a tactic to guilt Titania into staying with her, a method she has used 17 other times. Amaria's really just a terrible friend when you get down to it. Titania isn't either, because she only maintains the status quo and refuses to try to actually help Amaria... even after 17 suicide attempts.

That kinda goes off the basis of thinking rationally. You ever tell a drug addict to just stop doing drugs? Not gonna work out to easily. Titania is really all Amaria has to feel better. She's addicted. Amaria's just a victim to her own mental state. She needs help above all else. Maybe I just sympathize with her, but I just find it difficult to blame her for her actions.

 

Cain: 25

Adrienn: 12

Aya: 21

Ciel: 12

Florinia: 23

Hardy: 27

Julia: 24

Kiki: 21

Luna: 16

Noel: 11

Samson: 26

Shade: 23

Shelly: 27

Anna: 23

DJ Arclight: 17

Cal: 28

Laura: 27

ZEL: 23

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M4RC

M4RC

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Cain: 25

Adrienn: 12

Aya: 21

Ciel: 12

Florinia: 23

Hardy: 27

Julia: 24

Kiki: 21

Luna: 16

Noel: 11

Samson: 26

Shade: 23

Shelly: 27

Anna: 23

DJ Arclight: 17

Cal: 26

Laura: 28

ZEL: 23

 

How the hell was Cal winning this? I really don't get why he's that loved

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Jess

Jess

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5 hours ago, Dragoknight said:

That kinda goes off the basis of thinking rationally. You ever tell a drug addict to just stop doing drugs? Not gonna work out to easily. Titania is really all Amaria has to feel better. She's addicted. Amaria's just a victim to her own mental state. She needs help above all else. Maybe I just sympathize with her, but I just find it difficult to blame her for her actions.

Of course you do tell a drug addict that he/she has to stop doing drugs. And you try to convince him/her about why. 

A proper friend would point out the reasons why a depressed person needs professional help, instead of feeding the patient's lies just to keep him/her from attempting suicide again. 

Titania either has zero education and knowledge of how friends act in cases of having a friend with serious mental illnesses (which is stupid, cause, hello, internet exists and it's easy to contact a psychiatrist and ask for advice), or she likes preserving the lie cause she enjoys to feel that she is necessary to others.

Case a- she is ignorant. Case b- she is a selfish, arrogant bitch.

Choose your poison. Titania is far worse than Amaria in my eyes.

 

A mentally sick person cannot think with reason, emotions cloud judgement. Don't hateher based on her unreasonable actions, cause they don't reflect the real Amaria.

What's Titania's excuse? 

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Wolfox

Wolfox

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1 minute ago, Jess said:

Of course you do tell a drug addict that he/she has to stop doing drugs. And you try to convince him/her about why. 

A proper friend would point out the reasons why a depressed person needs professional help, instead of feeding the patient's lies just to keep him/her from attempting suicide again. 

Titania either has zero education and knowledge of how friends act in cases of having a friend with serious mental illnesses (which is stupid, cause, hello, internet exists and it's easy to contact a psychiatrist and ask for advice), or she likes preserving the lie cause she enjoys to feel that she is necessary to others.

Case a- she is ignorant. Case b- she is a selfish, arrogant bitch.

Choose your poison. Titania is far worse than Amaria in my eyes.

or case c- Sigmund is the only one in reach and she knows about his way of treating people

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Jess

Jess

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Just now, Wolfox said:

or case c- Sigmund is the only one in reach and she knows about his way of treating people

You can't believe that Sigmund is the only person who has studied psychology in the entire region/Pokemon world...

Or that they don't have internet, when we have amazing telecom systems before facing every Gym leader.

 

Now, if she asked for Sigmund's advice, then that would explain why she's being such a huge [C WORD] towards Amaria, behind that curtain of "best friend/love affair".

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Q-Jei

Q-Jei

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Posted (edited)

Cain: 25

Adrienn: 12

Aya: 21

Ciel: 12

Florinia: 23

Hardy: 27

Julia: 24

Kiki: 21

Luna: 14

Noel: 11

Samson: 26

Shade: 23

Shelly: 27

Anna: 23

DJ Arclight: 17

Cal: 26

Laura: 28

ZEL: 24

 

1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

or case c- Sigmund is the only one in reach and she knows about his way of treating people

Electrifying an aquagirl... if I was Amaria, I would not feel very comfortable. Anyway, if there is a chance to see Sigmund using his medical knowledge in a best way, I would not say 'no'.

Edited by Q-Jei
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Chim

Chim

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Cain: 25

Adrienn: 12

Aya: 21

Ciel: 10

Florinia: 23

Hardy: 27

Julia: 23

Kiki: 21

Luna: 14

Noel: 9

Samson: 26

Shade: 25

Shelly: 25

Anna: 23

DJ Arclight: 17

Cal: 27

Laura: 28

ZEL: 24

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