Hurt and Heal: XY Megas

[Azeria]

Just now, Jess said:

Let's give Levitate to everything that is fragile and has legs then....

I mean, Gengar's been depicted to be able to fly several times, in practically every anime/manga incarnation, so having Levitate as an ability makes actual sense...

[Wolfox]

1 minute ago, Azeria said:

I mean, Gengar's been depicted to be able to fly several times, in practically every anime/manga incarnation, so having Levitate as an ability makes actual sense...

so has Garchomp. but those can't fly or levitate either

[Jess]

1 minute ago, Azeria said:

I mean, Gengar's been depicted to be able to fly several times, in practically every anime/manga incarnation, so having Levitate as an ability makes actual sense...

Volcarona hit by Earthquake and Gengar not makes sense? There's a ton of mons on which Ground immunity would be MUCH more suited than on Gengar. 

It was just there to remove yet another supereffective threat towards Gengar. Making it quite OP.

[Azeria]

9 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

so has Garchomp. but those can't fly or levitate either

You're saying that like consistency is an active part of Pokemon. Still hasn't answered my question on how Levitate on something so frail that any coverage move from the Pokemon using the ground move is going to KO it anyways, is broken.

 

6 minutes ago, Jess said:

Volcarona hit by Earthquake and Gengar not makes sense? There's a ton of mons on which Ground immunity would be MUCH more suited than on Gengar. 

It was just there to remove yet another supereffective threat towards Gengar. Making it quite OP.

The above +;
Consider the fact that Gengar and it's pre evolution's are primarily made out of gas and as such are able to float, on top of Ghosts often being shown as able to float or fly due to their supernatural capabilities. Levitate as an ability makes perfect sense.

 

Just because Volcarona doesn't have it doesn't mean Gengar not having it does not make sense or is broken.

[Jess]

9 minutes ago, Azeria said:

Consider the fact that Gengar and it's pre evolution's are primarily made out of gas and as such are able to float. Levitate as an ability makes perfect sense.

Its pre-evolutions rightfully have it. Gengar doesn't. If that was the case, all Ghosts should have it, cause they don't possess material substance, and all Ghosts can "float", as Ghost lore shows us. And all physical moves against them should miss too.

It was broken because it was extremely strong. Very fast, very strong as a special sweeper, and (when it had Levitate) with only counters being Psychic (weak against it too, so the faster one wins), Ghost (same as Psychic) and Dark (God bless them for introducing the typing).

Its only actual counter (both attacking and defense-wise) when Gengar had Levitate was Dark. If that isn't OP, I honestly don't know what is.

[Azeria]

Just now, Jess said:

Its pre-evolutions rightfully have it. Gengar doesn't. If that was the case, all Ghosts should have it, cause they don't aren't made of a certain material, and all Ghosts can "float", as Ghost lore shows us. And all physical moves against them should miss too.

It was broken because it was extremely strong. Very fast, very strong as a special sweeper, and (when it had Levitate) with only counters being Psychic (weak against it too, so the faster one wins), Ghost (same as Psychic) and Dark (God bless them for introducing the typing).

Its only actual counter (both attacking and defense-wise) when Gengar had Levitate was Dark. If that isn't OP, I honestly don't know what is.

Again circles back to the point of consistency not always being a thing in Pokemon.

Gengar rarely one shots Pokemon unless it's dealing super effective damage, as it's main stab moves really only have about average power. It's also -as I've stated several times- incredibly frail. Faster Pokemon can easily knock it out in one hit, and the things that use Earthquake often have another move that is also easily able to knock it out in one hit. This innate frailty also leaves it incredibly weak to priority moves or Pursuit, something Dark types or Pokemon such as Scizor are easily able to take advantage of. Even -more- so, it's main stabs not being super strong and it's common coverage move in Focus Blast being incredibly unreliable due to it's low accuracy means that specially bulky Pokemon(of which there are PLENTY) or even normal types can easily handle it's attacks. This speaks of a very good Pokemon with a healthy list of flaws that make it not insanely overpowered.

[Jess]

2 minutes ago, Azeria said:

Again circles back to the point of consistency not always being a thing in Pokemon.

Gengar rarely one shots Pokemon unless it's dealing super effective damage, as it's main stab moves really only have about average power. It's also -as I've stated several times- incredibly frail. Faster Pokemon can easily knock it out in one hit, and the things that use Earthquake often have another move that is also easily able to knock it out in one hit. This innate frailty also leaves it incredibly weak to priority moves or Pursuit, something Dark types or Pokemon such as Scizor are easily able to take advantage of. Even -more- so, it's main stabs not being super strong and it's common coverage move in Focus Blast being incredibly unreliable due to it's low accuracy means that specially bulky Pokemon(of which there are PLENTY) or even normal types can easily handle it's attacks. This speaks of a very good Pokemon with a healthy list of flaws that make it not insanely overpowered.

The healthy list of flaws is the following one: fragile. How about not using it in the start of a battle, but save it to OHKO stuff after, say, entry hazards?

Also, Life Orb Gengar was quite capable of oneshotting stuff that weren't weak to its moves, I have personal traumas because of this. 

"Faster" pokemon you say... Like? I can only think of a handful that are "faster" than Gengar (without being a Mega) and almost none is able to hit it very hard and OHKO it with supereffective stuff.

 

Also, it can use Dazzling Gleam to finish off weakened Dark types without relying on the unreliable Focus Blast.

[Azeria]

Just now, Jess said:

The healthy list of flaws is the following one: fragile. How about not using it in the start of a battle, but save it to OHKO stuff after, say, entry hazards?

Also, Life Orb Gengar was quite capable of oneshotting stuff that weren't weak to its moves, I have personal traumas because of this. 

"Faster" pokemon you say... Like? I can only think of a handful that are "faster" than Gengar (without being a Mega) and almost none is able to hit it very hard and OHKO it with supereffective stuff.

 

Also, it can use Dazzling Gleam to finish off weakened Dark types without relying on the unreliable Focus Blast.

Fragile, it's most reliable moves aren't too strong, it's coverage is either too weak or too unreliable. Dazzling Gleam provides inferior coverage, doesn't hit Normal Types for Super Effective Damage and let's it's biggest counters; Tyranitar and Bisharp easily able to tank the hit.

 

Difference of opinions at the end of the day. No real point continuing this argument seeing as neither of us are probably going to concede to the other's point, and it's starting to clog up the thread.

 

 

[Wolfox]

let's just agree to disagree and agree that Mega Gengar would have been fine if it didn't have shadow tag

[Jess]

Just now, Azeria said:

Difference of opinions at the end of the day. No real point continuing this argument seeing as neither of us are probably going to concede to the other's point, and it's starting to clog up the thread.

True.

I had said it from the beginning that my opinion wouldn't change regardless of the opposing arguments. I had warned!

[Azeria]

2 minutes ago, Jess said:

True.

I had said it from the beginning that my opinion wouldn't change regardless of the opposing arguments. I had warned!

I know you did , just that the Levitate part really annoyed me because I can't see how it'd be broken from my perspective :(. Shadow Tag absolutely is broken on Mega Gengar, I don't mind it because it makes it really interesting to play with, allowing full use of Gengar's wondrous movepool.

[Jess]

1 minute ago, Azeria said:

Gengar's wondrous movepool

How is it wondrous if its STABs are too weak and its coverage is unreliable...

[Azeria]

Just now, Jess said:

How is it wondrous if its STABs are too weak and its coverage is unreliable...

Because it lets it use it's utility moves so much more easily as I pointed out in my original post As it stands Gengar can only really run a few effectively due to power creep, but it's Mega can use just about every single one.

[Jess]

7 minutes ago, Azeria said:

Because it lets it use it's utility moves so much more easily as I pointed out in my original post As it stands Gengar can only really run a few effectively due to power creep, but it's Mega can use just about every single one.

LOL, I know, I was just joking about that one  

[Azeria]

Just now, Jess said:

LOL, I know, I was just joking about that one  

MB, internet makes it hard to interpret jokes, can't exactly read tones :blobsweat:

granted the strikethrough probably should've given that away zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Wolfox]

let's just thank our lucky stars the Mono council didn't all main Ghost in gen 6. because you know allowed Mega Gengar and Aegis because of that

[Azeria]

Just now, Wolfox said:

let's just thank our lucky stars the Mono council didn't all main Ghost in gen 6. because you know allowed Mega Gengar and Aegis because of that

yeah they mained mono psychic and allowed infinite amounts of stupid shit. hi my naem mega medi, how r u

[Wolfox]

Just now, Azeria said:

yeah they mained mono psychic and allowed infinite amounts of stupid shit. hi my naem mega medi, how r u

and let's ban mega Gallade, because Knock Off! tbh I'm surprised they didn't ban Mega Houndoom, one Nasty Plot and those Dark Pulses hit like a truck

[Azeria]

4 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

and let's ban mega Gallade, because Knock Off! tbh I'm surprised they didn't ban Mega Houndoom, one Nasty Plot and those Dark Pulses hit like a truck

10 speed difference, the strongest attack in the game can't make up for that r-right?

[Wolfox]

guess it couldn't. if anything the mono council made all other psychic mains salty as shit when they decided to learn from gen 6 and be less biased in gen 7, instantly banning Tapu Lele

[Dragoknight]

@Azeria @Jess Um.. if I can interject here (and reiterate some of the earlier points), the main reason Gengar is as effective as it was in the first 6 Gens was because of it being really fast and hitting even harder, allowing it to function as an excellent late game sweeper. In addition, Gengar's movepool allowed it to cover a large portion of the meta it faced for neutral, which usually is enough for it to take the kill upon damage from entry hazards.

That doesn't mean it was perfect or broken, Gengar had counters in the form of faster 'mon (as rare as that is), priortiy users that can take advantage of Gengar's frailness, pursuit trappers (the bane of all Ghost types), and bulky 'mon that could survive a hit and dish out even more damage back.

So, in all honesty, Levitate wasn't an amazing of an ability for Gengar. Effective, yes. But it's not like Gengar actually got a whole lot of use out of it's ability aside from a free switch in. Granted, I think it is more balanced now that Gengar has Cursed Body, since this opens up a weakness in a 'mon that already is a powerhouse.

And as for it's mega, fuck Shadow Tag.

 

Mega Gengar: 15

Mega Kangaskhan: 14

Mega Pinsir: 24

Mega Aerodactyl: 22

Mega Ampharos: 22

Mega Scizor: 25

Mega Heracross: 25

Mega Houndoom: 23

Mega Mawile: 8

Mega Aggron: 24

Mega Manectric: 24

Mega Absol: 8

Mega Abomasnow: 21

[CrimsonDragon21]

Was to much to read and i am already to late to join the conversation, so I skipped it.

 

Mega Gengar: 15

Mega Kangaskhan: 14

Mega Pinsir: 24

Mega Aerodactyl: 22

Mega Ampharos: 22

Mega Scizor: 25

Mega Heracross: 25

Mega Houndoom: 24

Mega Mawile: 8

Mega Aggron: 24

Mega Manectric: 24

Mega Absol: 8

Mega Abomasnow: 19

[Zargerth]

Mega Gengar: 15

Mega Kangaskhan: 14

Mega Pinsir: 24

Mega Aerodactyl: 23

Mega Ampharos: 22

Mega Scizor: 25

Mega Heracross: 25

Mega Houndoom: 24

Mega Mawile: 8

Mega Aggron: 24

Mega Manectric: 24

Mega Absol: 8

Mega Abomasnow: 17

[NickCrash]

@Dragoknight With the power creep increasing in the later gens, Gengar is far from being a powerhouse. It's a good attacker with coverage, yet not too great stats to one-shot things coming its way (pretty much like Keldeo does), a sub-par typing for STAB, and such frailty that even not SE hits will bring it down (meaning limited uses of Life Orb attacks or returns to the field with rocks in it).

Some things have a useful niche because of their abilities and others have crappy ones. Keldeo functions perfectly practically without an ability. So does M-Gallade. Gengar was never used in such a way, as it was utilizing its ability for a predicted safe switch, limited entry hazard damage, and turning some OHKO's into 2HKO's. If you ask me (I know you didn't, shut up) other pokemon exploit their abilities much better than Gengar, and I don't believe people should credit them and discredit Gengar just because it has been consistently annoying because of its ability. 

This is not a rant. This is me providing examples of similar cases that people don't mind as much as Gen-Gar, just to answer in terms of consistency.

 

 

Breloom has 130 Atk, has Spore, SD, but nobody complains about Technician making it a killing machine.

Alakazam has 135 SpA, 120 Spe and thanks to Magic Guard can don a Life Orb without recoil, not to mention no entry damage. People think it's ok, because it's frail.

M-Slowbro has 180 Def, access to Calm Mind, and Can't Be Crit'ed thanks to Shell Armor. Nobody bats an eye.

Mimikyu has perfect STAB coverage, a free turn to set SD, can also be baton passed a Substitute, has priority, is weak to Steel and Ghost only. But sure it's fine, cause it's cute.
 

 

 

Levitate was balanced on it. Sure it didn't get ground-spammed, but that was a reason Gengar got in many teams, given the sheer number of versatile special attackers the current metagame provides. It wasn't overpowered or even centralizing to the point of teambuilding against it, so nerfing it was a needless move. It was consistently OU ever since gen1 without being too threatening (given all the checks it has), and now it feels like the end of an era when it can no longer keep up.

 

btw, when one person says "it's not broken if such a frail pokemon has levitate" they don't mean that "all frail pokemon should have levitate" or "all ghost pokemon should have levitate". It's attacking the strawman far away from the argument. 

 

I hate how OP M-Gengar is, but that's no reason to accuse regular gengar.

 

Mega Gengar: 15

Mega Kangaskhan: 14

Mega Pinsir: 24

Mega Aerodactyl: 23

Mega Ampharos: 22

Mega Scizor: 23

Mega Heracross: 25

Mega Houndoom: 24

Mega Mawile: 8

Mega Aggron: 24

Mega Manectric: 25

Mega Absol: 8

Mega Abomasnow: 17

[Dragoknight]

38 minutes ago, NickCrash said:

@Dragoknight With the power creep increasing in the later gens, Gengar is far from being a powerhouse. It's a good attacker with coverage, yet not too great stats to one-shot things coming its way (pretty much like Keldeo does), a sub-par typing for STAB, and such frailty that even not SE hits will bring it down (meaning limited uses of Life Orb attacks or returns to the field with rocks in it).

Some things have a useful niche because of their abilities and others have crappy ones. Keldeo functions perfectly practically without an ability. So does M-Gallade. Gengar was never used in such a way, as it was utilizing its ability for a predicted safe switch, limited entry hazard damage, and turning some OHKO's into 2HKO's. If you ask me (I know you didn't, shut up) other pokemon exploit their abilities much better than Gengar, and I don't believe people should credit them and discredit Gengar just because it has been consistently annoying because of its ability. 

This is not a rant. This is me providing examples of similar cases that people don't mind as much as Gen-Gar, just to answer in terms of consistency.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Breloom has 130 Atk, has Spore, SD, but nobody complains about Technician making it a killing machine.

Alakazam has 135 SpA, 120 Spe and thanks to Magic Guard can don a Life Orb without recoil, not to mention no entry damage. People think it's ok, because it's frail.

M-Slowbro has 180 Def, access to Calm Mind, and Can't Be Crit'ed thanks to Shell Armor. Nobody bats an eye.

Mimikyu has perfect STAB coverage, a free turn to set SD, can also be baton passed a Substitute, has priority, is weak to Steel and Ghost only. But sure it's fine, cause it's cute.
 

 

 

Levitate was balanced on it. Sure it didn't get ground-spammed, but that was a reason Gengar got in many teams, given the sheer number of versatile special attackers the current metagame provides. It wasn't overpowered or even centralizing to the point of teambuilding against it, so nerfing it was a needless move. It was consistently OU ever since gen1 without being too threatening (given all the checks it has), and now it feels like the end of an era when it can no longer keep up.

 

btw, when one person says "it's not broken if such a frail pokemon has levitate" they don't mean that "all frail pokemon should have levitate" or "all ghost pokemon should have levitate". It's attacking the strawman far away from the argument. 

 

I hate how OP M-Gengar is, but that's no reason to accuse regular gengar.

You have a point there (personally I'm more on the fence with whether knocking Levitate is good or not). Given the whole power creep over the past generations, Gengar's ability to function as it does is somewhat being threatened. I'm not saying Levitate is OP on Gengar, and there are pokemon with better abilities that should or should not be nerfed depending upon how you look at it (I completely agree that Technician Breloom is just a bit too stronk), I just don't really like how Gengar could abuse a free switch in and hit back fast and hard. (Bias; I'm not a huge Gengar fan)

Maybe if it got Magic Guard instead of Cursed Body so it could at least function as a solid special sweeper similar to Alakazam, then it might be better.

 

PS: At least we can all agree Mega Gengar is broken.