Tacos Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 from a mid's perspective: It comes down to the mid in question and whether not i see the enemy jungler well before he even gets close to bot lane. For example, with a champion like Fizz you should head down there quickly, while a champ like Ziggs probably shouldn't leave land outside of tossing an ult unless dragon is involved. And if the jungler is already bot before you leave lane, don't bother unless Dragon is at risk or you can bag someone easily. If the bot lane dies in such a scenario, then why is it the mid or jungler's fault? The bot lane got caught out, and that's not the doing of anyone else on the team. They shoulda warded. Use wards. If they're already down there mopping up kills, you are not helping by slowly trudging down bot lane when you could have taken or gotten close to taking the tower. If you see them going, clear the wave as soon as possible if its pushed and roam after them. Otherwise, your wasting your time. The thing is, I'll give you the scenario of my last game. Their team had a very seige/tower dive comp, with Braum, Ziggs, Lee Sin, and Lucian. And yes, we did have wards, but it was the fact that we weren't even safe under tower that was more unnerving. While I would have loved to back, I was holding onto the hope that Shaco and Akali would come and assist us. However, Akali only came after we tried our hardest to hold on and lowered most of them down to about 25% health. Then she decided to come in and mop it up while they cleared out the turret. We never once were caught out, it was just that the roams were so frequent, and Akali and Shaco almost never benefitted from their roam. Shaco may have gotten more jungle farm, and maybe Akali got a wave or two of cs, but they never secured a turret in that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 The only thing I would have done differently is not stay under my tower - as Jinx, that's not a good idea, especially against a mobile team that can easily dive you without an adequate front line that you can rely on (your team was all squishies with no front line, RIP). If I were you in this scenario, I would do as much damage as possible without dying, give up the turret if necessary, re-engage as Akali arrives, then give Akali a hand in cleaning up (Jinx's passive helps out huge in this scenario). Calling Kayle for help would have also done wonders if she had Teleport. Shaco wouldn't be able to do much since he can't handle large crowds very well, he'd have to splitpush. Annie would be in the same boat as Jinx, squishy with no mobility so she'd get destroyed as well. In many cases, it's better to give up the tower and strike back later, than die trying to defend it, even if you succeed in doing so. That way you avoid the risk of losing out on a lot of CS, giving someone tons of gold, and being unable to delay or stop the enemy team from taking further objectives such as Dragon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doj Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Shaco wouldn't be able to do much since he can't handle large crowds This is my favorite meme Just build a randuins and you're set Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelly Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 epic meme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Hi Veigar main here. These new changes were put in place to appeal to bad players who are unaware of how to deal with Veigar, much like other pubstompers such as Katarina or Akali. The reason Veigar isn't played so much as them, however, is because he doesn't have the capability to 1v5. He's a single target burst mage and that's it. These changes are actually really unfair and have completely castrated Veigar anywhere beyond high gold. His targeted Q and E > W > Q combos were his only means of harassing and trading in lane. In lower elos, people will not be smart enough to abuse minions to shield themselves against Veigar's skillshot Q, in turn changing it into a plain bad ability. The reason it works for lux is because she has her E to reliably harass with, AND her Q snares while veigar's Q only gives him some bonus AP. His E being given a delay have completely fucked Veigar over in at least midlane, where assassins with instant blinks are en masse. If you as a player have anywhere near a decent reaction speed, then 0.75 seconds is enough to never, ever get hit by his stun. However worse players may of course not be fast enough for this. Veigar will, as a result, be an Urgot or Gangplank tier pick which simply can not deal with the powercreeped kits of all the high tier champions in higher elo, but like any other champion will work fine in lower elos. These changes were completely uncalled for because, besides stabbing veigar in the dick by removing DFG, you can very easily buy mercs in lane and a banshee's lategame to have Veigar become a non factor to you. If you've never played as Veigar against someone who rushed mercs, or against a team who all got banshee's, then you don't really have a clue how completely balanced and "muh counterplay"ayable Veigar was. TL;DR Meddler is gold 1, Morello is Silver 4 and thus their balancing is only for the good of equally bad players. Enjoy even less diversity in the viability of mid's champion pool. There is no counterplay to point and click, get over yourself. He got nerfed because he was a problem. It's also not even guaranteed to happen and you're going pretty overboard despite that fact, don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doj Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 There is no counterplay to point and click, get over yourself. He got nerfed because he was a problem. It's also not even guaranteed to happen and you're going pretty overboard despite that fact, don't you think? You do understand how low the range is of veigar's current Q and ult, right? Only if the ultimate lategame hits he's able to one hit you with a Q and Ult, and that's if you have zero magic resistance, and that's only if you are an AP user. Meanwhile if you just have a banshee's by then, again, Veigar can't do a single shit to you because his Q and ult will never instakill you regardless of your spell shield being up or down (which is Magic Resistance in effect), and if it is up, he simply can't harm you without getting in dangerous range to cast a Q or waste his stun which has a ~15 second cooldown and functions as his only engage and defense tool. Are you going to tell me that marksmen are toxic because their basic attacks are point click too and have no counterplay? With that logic, ADCs have no counterplay either because all they do is rightclick. What you call "no counterplay" gets instantly negated by the fact buying a banshee's against Veigar means he can't do anything to you without putting himself in danger. His Q and ult range is only 650. His W has a windup time of 1.2 seconds, so there's no way he's going to pop your banshee's with that. His stun has 16 second cooldown on max rank, so 9.6 seconds with 40% cdr. If he tries to pop your banshee's with that before a fight and you let him without engaging on him, you're the one to blame for being bad at managing the cooldowns of enemies. You then only have yourself to blame. His Q is also his only trading ability in lane. If you let him lob free Qs at you without just all inning him, then you're, again, doing something wrong. You don't go around complaining about a late game Talon having no counterplay, do you? Do you also ignore the need to buy armor against that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developers Voctrode Posted February 17, 2015 Developers Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don't really think his point was pointing and clicking as much as "push button receive kill" is kinda inherently bad for the game. You also don't seem to be considering that /hopefully/ there's possibly another member of your team that can pop the banshees, then all that's left is magic resist which.. the entire point of it is to reduce magic damage so wow cool wow such build Of course magic resist isn't by itself "counterplay" cause you're not doing anything other than buying an item to not be 100-0'd, rather than outplaying the champion in some way, which having primarily point and click damage tends to prevent. ..But I totes agree e change is superbad and needs to not, or atleast needs to have something going on inside the cage to make it not just be a big circle saying "run" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The delay definitely needs to be shortened to about .25 seconds so that Veigar doesn't become completely useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The E change is too much, especially because he's immobile, but the Q change is a good mindset towards removing toxicity from the game. I mean it's an ability that allows him to infinitely scale with ridiculously high scaling ratios, especially his ult that scales not only with his stats, but the enemies as well. Unless you're name is Galio and you have the Mage title, you're dead at level 6-8 unless you've rushed a Banshee's or zhonya's for even a chance at counterplaying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WanderoftheColossus Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hi Veigar main here. These new changes were put in place to appeal to bad players who are unaware of how to deal with Veigar, much like other pubstompers such as Katarina or Akali. The reason Veigar isn't played so much as them, however, is because he doesn't have the capability to 1v5. He's a single target burst mage and that's it. These changes are actually really unfair and have completely castrated Veigar anywhere beyond high gold. His targeted Q and E > W > Q combos were his only means of harassing and trading in lane. In lower elos, people will not be smart enough to abuse minions to shield themselves against Veigar's skillshot Q, in turn changing it into a plain bad ability. The reason it works for lux is because she has her E to reliably harass with, AND her Q snares while veigar's Q only gives him some bonus AP. His E being given a delay have completely fucked Veigar over in at least midlane, where assassins with instant blinks are en masse. If you as a player have anywhere near a decent reaction speed, then 0.75 seconds is enough to never, ever get hit by his stun. However worse players may of course not be fast enough for this. Veigar will, as a result, be an Urgot or Gangplank tier pick which simply can not deal with the powercreeped kits of all the high tier champions in higher elo, but like any other champion will work fine in lower elos. These changes were completely uncalled for because, besides stabbing veigar in the dick by removing DFG, you can very easily buy mercs in lane and a banshee's lategame to have Veigar become a non factor to you. If you've never played as Veigar against someone who rushed mercs, or against a team who all got banshee's, then you don't really have a clue how completely balanced and "muh counterplay"ayable Veigar was. TL;DR Meddler is gold 1, Morello is Silver 4 and thus their balancing is only for the good of equally bad players. Enjoy even less diversity in the viability of mid's champion pool. Morello is actually around the high plat/low diamond level however because he's so damn busy with, y'know, making the game you play he doesn't really have time to actually okay ranked as much as he would like. So before you complain about them not being able to balance check your facts. Furthermore a lot of ap mids got stabbed in the dick by DFG being removed so quit whining, veigar aint special a lot of champs got hit hard by that. The delay on E is too long, hopefully they shorten the time it takes for it to actually stun (i believe someone already mentioned like .25?). Riot as of late has realized that a lot of their early champs (like veigar and now Morde) are very much point and click based. Not calling out veigar in particualr but this is provides inherently bad gameplay in PVP because point and click means a guaranteed hit as opposed to another champion who has skillshots. You could make the arguement that 'syndra has a point and click attack' or 'what about karthus?' to which I say syndra's ult deals such minimal damage without setting up for it through skill shots and karthus also has to deal a strong majority of dps through skill shot or risking walking up and dying while aoe dpsing. Veigar on the other hand went something like this: Q minions for 10 minutes Stun when appropriate Harass with W Q and ult and I insta kill with only two items under my belt. That's a huge issue. It didn't matter if you had a banshees or not. if he popped that and then ulted you, you were dead ESPECIALLY if you were an AP champion. Veigar could instakill you no problem. Youre talking about how bad players don't know how to counter this but the issue is there is no counterplay to it. You. Die. Instantly. Also what you're not considering is 4 other players on your team. sure you can't 1v5 but you can point and click champions and bring them to 1/4th hp. That's what theyre nerfing and thats why theyre nerfing him. You do understand how low the range is of veigar's current Q and ult, right? Only if the ultimate lategame hits he's able to one hit you with a Q and Ult, and that's if you have zero magic resistance, and that's only if you are an AP user. Meanwhile if you just have a banshee's by then, again, Veigar can't do a single shit to you because his Q and ult will never instakill you regardless of your spell shield being up or down (which is Magic Resistance in effect), and if it is up, he simply can't harm you without getting in dangerous range to cast a Q or waste his stun which has a ~15 second cooldown and functions as his only engage and defense tool. Are you going to tell me that marksmen are toxic because their basic attacks are point click too and have no counterplay? With that logic, ADCs have no counterplay either because all they do is rightclick. What you call "no counterplay" gets instantly negated by the fact buying a banshee's against Veigar means he can't do anything to you without putting himself in danger. His Q and ult range is only 650. His W has a windup time of 1.2 seconds, so there's no way he's going to pop your banshee's with that. His stun has 16 second cooldown on max rank, so 9.6 seconds with 40% cdr. If he tries to pop your banshee's with that before a fight and you let him without engaging on him, you're the one to blame for being bad at managing the cooldowns of enemies. You then only have yourself to blame. His Q is also his only trading ability in lane. If you let him lob free Qs at you without just all inning him, then you're, again, doing something wrong. You don't go around complaining about a late game Talon having no counterplay, do you? Do you also ignore the need to buy armor against that? You fail to realize here that veigars ult also deals an absurd percentage of the ap you've built if youre an ap champion so saying 'build magic resistance so you dont die' doesn't matter since veigars ult deals based on his + enemy ap champs AP which will negate and overpower what little mr the enemy ap champ has. Again you speak of counterplay but its not veigar versus the world. its veigar who can kill me in 2 hits even with banshees plus 4 other champions on his team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 There's only so much fun you have when playing Veigar. I agree with Doj that Veigar won't be fun to play when these go live, and knowing Riot they won't touch him for a while. Veigar had his run but it's time to put him back into the vault of boring champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewer Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) Veigar was never really a problem though, his win rate is average and he is never picked in competitive. He should not have the opportunity to just walk up to you without flash and two shot you in a teamfight unless you get caught out by him in a skirmish. He also has no defensive tools except his E and lol zhonyas so he can be focused down. Now they removed dfg, turned his q into a skillshot, and put a delay into his E. That's some big hit. ...But I think it is not as bad as the kassadin nerfs that just came out on pbe. Ult range down to 450 from 700. To compare it with auto attacks, that's going from jinx's auto range with rank 5 fishbones auto range to karthus/thresh auto range. That is absolutely insane. To be honest though I kinda love those nerfs because you know, f*ck kassadin, sorry kassadin mains, jk not sorry I hate you. And there is stuff like Xerath going around completely untouched. Hi I am pressing Q and the minion wave is gone. Hi im killing you with a combo from 75% HP and a hundred teemos away. @_@ Edited February 18, 2015 by Rewer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doj Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) Veigar on the other hand went something like this:Q minions for 10 minutes Stun when appropriate Harass with W Q and ult and I insta kill with only two items under my belt. That's a huge issue. It didn't matter if you had a banshees or not. if he popped that and then ulted you, you were dead ESPECIALLY if you were an AP champion. Veigar could instakill you no problem. Youre talking about how bad players don't know how to counter this but the issue is there is no counterplay to it. Yeah that's what I mean with low elo veigars. I hope you're aware that with these changes he's just going to become more troublesome in low elos, and useless in higher elos. There's 2 different Veigars. The ones who only Q farm during laning phase, thus providing no lane pressure, no trading potential and no harassing on their own part. If you can consider yourself "good" then you will very easily bully veigar out of lane to the point where he's on a support's payroll and a jungler's XP gain. Then there's the Veigars who do not Q farm (except siege minions), and instead use their Q to harass and trade, since this is a very important gimick of midlane. A farm Veigar has no place in midlane. They should be going top if they want that to be a valid tactic in higher elos. Now with these Q changes he's going to be able to farm two minions with a single Q. Counterplay isn't something as monotone as "something you can do on the spot". It goes all the way back to how you handled him in lane. You don't let a Nasus freefarm either, do you? Then don't let a Veigar do it. It's that simple. If you have a bad laning phase as veigar, there is very, very little you can do after the early game and will have to reach a 50 minute game in order to become relevant again. You fail to realize here that veigars ult also deals an absurd percentage of the ap you've built if youre an ap champion so saying 'build magic resistance so you dont die' doesn't matter since veigars ult deals based on his + enemy ap champs AP which will negate and overpower what little mr the enemy ap champ has. Again you speak of counterplay but its not veigar versus the world. its veigar who can kill me in 2 hits even with banshees plus 4 other champions on his team. Then don't build high AP. Build a bunch of magic penetration instead. Sorcs, Athenes, Haunting Guise and Abyssal are all great items to build early against Veigar to make his ult as weak as possible, or even merc threads. Congrats, now he needs at least a level 4 stun in order to stun you long enough for a W to land, at which point he's going to be at least level 12 if he maxes his stun second, and level 17 if he's maxing it third. Now that gives you PLENTY of time to win a game if you have the slightest idea of decisionmaking and objectives control, which high elo players do have. Low elo players do not. Which is why they're low elo. And that's my reasoning for why Veigar's nerfs gutting is unwarranted. If you as a bad player have issues with something good players don't have issues with, it's you who is the problem, not the champion. Harass with W And I just noticed this. Sorry but you need to have some kind of brainlag to not be able to dodge an ability with a relatively small hitbox and a 1.2 second cooldown. Edited February 18, 2015 by Doj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fush Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Yeah that's what I mean with low elo veigars. I hope you're aware that with these changes he's just going to become more troublesome in low elos, and useless in higher elos. There's 2 different Veigars. The ones who only Q farm during laning phase, thus providing no lane pressure, no trading potential and no harassing on their own part. If you can consider yourself "good" then you will very easily bully veigar out of lane to the point where he's on a support's payroll and a jungler's XP gain. Then there's the Veigars who do not Q farm (except siege minions), and instead use their Q to harass and trade, since this is a very important gimick of midlane. A farm Veigar has no place in midlane. They should be going top if they want that to be a valid tactic in higher elos. Now with these Q changes he's going to be able to farm two minions with a single Q. Counterplay isn't something as monotone as "something you can do on the spot". It goes all the way back to how you handled him in lane. You don't let a Nasus freefarm either, do you? Then don't let a Veigar do it. It's that simple. If you have a bad laning phase as veigar, there is very, very little you can do after the early game and will have to reach a 50 minute game in order to become relevant again. Why is a focus on farming in the early game less favoured than a focus on trading and harass? The way I see it, if you're taking a more champion-offensive approach and reserving your Q farm purely for minions, you're sacrificing the vast majority of your mid-late primetime power because of the lack of AP you've gained (unless you've gotten onto a Legendary spree there is no amount of early-game kill success that will bring you the AP that the gold and farming will), making you pretty much less than useful for the entirety of the game unless you keep whatever spree you have rolling, making it a go big or go home approach on the levels of the current Darius. Adding to this is the fact that Veigar can't trade with anyone who's either an assassin (Akali, Talon, Zed, Fizz, LeBlanc), AD (Zed and Talon again, along with some select other uncommon picks) or Galio, meaning that if you're taking an offensive approach early game to those champions you're A. likely to lose and become useless and B. again, sacrificing a heavy amount of your mid-lategame power. Also, I'd highly disagree that purely farming as Veigar in the top lane is a viable tactic; 90% of the enemies you'll face can outtrade you, easily harass you and force that recall, and therefore outfarm you; they're a lot better at keeping you away from your farm than most common midlane champions. The few times I've played Veigar in the top lane has resulted in me sacrificing half of my safer farm play in favour of W+E trading to discourage harass from the enemy champ (for reference, these situations were against Garen, Riven and Gnar specifically). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewer Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) After you press Q on a minion you cant retaliate so you're vulnerable to being bullied in lane. Veigar doesnt have a weak early game, he has alot of base damage especially level 4, so you can bully your opponent out of lane and roam or kill him instead. This is what most (if not every) veigar guides say. What you described about top lane veigar being outraded is much worse in mid lane, since mid champions can attack with ranged spells :x edit: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/02/218-pbe-update.html#more AP statik shiv. ..................................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Edited February 18, 2015 by Rewer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacos Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Stepping away from the Veigar discussion, Katarina has received a few necessary updates to her new splash art. Below is a gif showing comparisons of the new and old splash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 It's time to play "Spot the Differences"! Can you spot all 6 in the gif above? Answers: Face has been restructured. Hair has more volume (more noticeable on one side than the other). Colors have been adjusted throughout most of the splash (the color changes vary). Hips are wider. The blade in her right hand no longer looks like it's glowing. Right breast is smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fush Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 After you press Q on a minion you cant retaliate so you're vulnerable to being bullied in lane. Veigar doesnt have a weak early game, he has alot of base damage especially level 4, so you can bully your opponent out of lane and roam or kill him instead. This is what most (if not every) veigar guides say. What you described about top lane veigar being outraded is much worse in mid lane, since mid champions can attack with ranged spells :x You can't retaliate to bullying if you've used your Q? You seem to have forgotten about the WE combo with the E having the same range if cast at the edge of the indicator, aka a decent response to any mage which tries to jump on you after you farm. His base damage at level 4 isn't good enough to encourage the idea of abandoning consistent farming; the base numbers are decent if you land an E or 2, but without the AP bonuses and the sufficient mana (equilibrium doesn't consistently ready up Q if you've used up your mana) you're not going to be able to trade at all in the early game without backing on several occasions; it's a rocky road whether or not you're harassing them in the first place. I'd disagree that trading is worse in mid lane; an Orb of Deception or 2 flying at you is easier to face than a Riven facerolling over you or a Jax jumping on top of your face. The enemy has available harass in both situations, but one is harder to deal with. For clarification, I'd like to state my typical strategy as Veigar in the midlane; I focus my Q on farming the minions, and then immediately retaliate with a W+E combo when they try to jump on me because of it's usage; the trade is sufficient even if they poke a few times afterwards since his early game damage isn't terrible, as you've stated. Of course, this means you don't have any way to fight properly before level 3 but that applies regardless of whether or not you're playing aggressively, and Q at level 1 does remarkably low damage anyway, making it redundant. Your first few levels against assassins are survivable anyway, since they can't really poke (unless they're Zed) consistently unless they go ham on you. As a result of this situation for a little while, which will likely involve a secured kill if the jungler has made a solid gank since E is an excellent followup, I then have stockpiled a decent low double-digit number of bonus AP and can proceed to now spamming the EWQ combo as harass, which not only heavily deters them due to the fact that half their health has disappeared, but also allows you to farm for a small lapse of time since their face is wrecked if you bust out a RQ Ignite in the meantime, meaning they will stay away unless they're an assassin who can confidently secure a kill on you; meaning that as a result of my strategy before level 6, I have put myself in a position where I can freely harass them because of my small AP stockpile which can then accelerate due to secured kills and some continued farming, meaning I am vastly superior. Assassins are an exception, of course, but if you're facing one of them then it's likely you won't be doing so well anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocky Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 ap statikk shiv IT IS THE RETURN OF THE ALMIGHTY AP TRAP CAITLYN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doj Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Why is a focus on farming in the early game less favoured than a focus on trading and harass? The way I see it, if you're taking a more champion-offensive approach and reserving your Q farm purely for minions, you're sacrificing the vast majority of your mid-late primetime power because of the lack of AP you've gained (unless you've gotten onto a Legendary spree there is no amount of early-game kill success that will bring you the AP that the gold and farming will), making you pretty much less than useful for the entirety of the game unless you keep whatever spree you have rolling, making it a go big or go home approach on the levels of the current Darius. Adding to this is the fact that Veigar can't trade with anyone who's either an assassin (Akali, Talon, Zed, Fizz, LeBlanc), AD (Zed and Talon again, along with some select other uncommon picks) or Galio, meaning that if you're taking an offensive approach early game to those champions you're A. likely to lose and become useless and B. again, sacrificing a heavy amount of your mid-lategame power. Also, I'd highly disagree that purely farming as Veigar in the top lane is a viable tactic; 90% of the enemies you'll face can outtrade you, easily harass you and force that recall, and therefore outfarm you; they're a lot better at keeping you away from your farm than most common midlane champions. The few times I've played Veigar in the top lane has resulted in me sacrificing half of my safer farm play in favour of W+E trading to discourage harass from the enemy champ (for reference, these situations were against Garen, Riven and Gnar specifically). You farm with basic attacks. Meanwhile, if you actually end up getting fed on kills thanks to your constant harass, bullying the enemy out of lane which will give you the ability to freely roam and receive kills there with free dragons and turrets, you will have a much better reward than when you just passively farm with Q. Veigar absolutely destroys Fizz, Akali and Leblanc pre 6. They're all melee and will never be able to outtrade you, except leblanc who is ranged but has no trading potential at level 1. You establish lane dominance at level 1 against those champions with a mixture of Qs AND basic attacks (which is why you take mixed pen marks). The only danger against those is zed's ability to blink over to you and just kill you melee, in which case he has to be level 2 where you have your stun. Now thanks to that delay there is absolutely no way for veigar to react to things like a zed blinking over to you. Or a talon, or akali, or fizz. Then by the time level 6 hits, they will start shitting on you, and 20-30 more AP from farming will NOT help you here, which is why you need to solely use your Q on them specifically. That's literally the only chance you have. Talon can be established lane dominance against at level 1 as well if he didn't take this blink first. If you fail to bring him down to low health levels while wasting his potions, then you will lose lane. Again, a matter of not using your Q to farm but to harass and put pressure on your lane opponent. You outtrade leblanc at level 1, but the moment she hits level 2, there is no other way to deal with her besides playing it safe and getting to level 6 while hoping for a gank from your jungler, and even then (at level 6) you will still have a tough time dealing with her since she simply outdamages you for the majority of the game and has high enough base damage to build low AP Magic pen items. Galio is a true anti-mage. No shit you can't win against him. That's just a massive counterpick, but he has really low kill pressure, so you can easily just max W and focus on waveclear rather than farming or harass. You will absolutely shit on Garen and Gnar in top lane. I've played veigar top plenty of times. I think you really underestimate the advantage a ranged champion has over a melee champion. Riven is an even matchup, and as long as you don't let her get in range of you, the lane is pretty easy as well. You can't retaliate to bullying if you've used your Q? You seem to have forgotten about the WE combo with the E having the same range if cast at the edge of the indicator, aka a decent response to any mage which tries to jump on you after you farm. His base damage at level 4 isn't good enough to encourage the idea of abandoning consistent farming; the base numbers are decent if you land an E or 2, but without the AP bonuses and the sufficient mana (equilibrium doesn't consistently ready up Q if you've used up your mana) you're not going to be able to trade at all in the early game without backing on several occasions; it's a rocky road whether or not you're harassing them in the first place. I'd disagree that trading is worse in mid lane; an Orb of Deception or 2 flying at you is easier to face than a Riven facerolling over you or a Jax jumping on top of your face. The enemy has available harass in both situations, but one is harder to deal with. For clarification, I'd like to state my typical strategy as Veigar in the midlane; I focus my Q on farming the minions, and then immediately retaliate with a W+E combo when they try to jump on me because of it's usage; the trade is sufficient even if they poke a few times afterwards since his early game damage isn't terrible, as you've stated. Of course, this means you don't have any way to fight properly before level 3 but that applies regardless of whether or not you're playing aggressively, and Q at level 1 does remarkably low damage anyway, making it redundant. Your first few levels against assassins are survivable anyway, since they can't really poke (unless they're Zed) consistently unless they go ham on you. As a result of this situation for a little while, which will likely involve a secured kill if the jungler has made a solid gank since E is an excellent followup, I then have stockpiled a decent low double-digit number of bonus AP and can proceed to now spamming the EWQ combo as harass, which not only heavily deters them due to the fact that half their health has disappeared, but also allows you to farm for a small lapse of time since their face is wrecked if you bust out a RQ Ignite in the meantime, meaning they will stay away unless they're an assassin who can confidently secure a kill on you; meaning that as a result of my strategy before level 6, I have put myself in a position where I can freely harass them because of my small AP stockpile which can then accelerate due to secured kills and some continued farming, meaning I am vastly superior. Assassins are an exception, of course, but if you're facing one of them then it's likely you won't be doing so well anyway. His W + E cost 150 mana and Veigar's passive will not help you survive that. You also don't max these skills first except in very specific circumstances, so they aren't going to do any damage either to call it a "trade". That's just you tickling them while they chunk you for half of your health because you aren't using your Q to trade. Your passive nasus-esque farming simply does not work on Veigar in midlane, because this lane is at the very center of your map, and your objectives control is only second to the jungler's. it's your fucking job to not sit on your ass playing farmville and instead provide global presence and actually pressure your lane. Again, play Veigar top lane if you want to be a null factor on your team until 30 minutes have passed. Edited February 19, 2015 by Doj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacos Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I can't really post with any details regarding it because I'm currently in school, but there was a Champion Teaser released today for our first champion of 2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelly Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-preview/wonder-above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Veigar changes locked for patch 5.4. Riot said they'll be keeping an eye on him, but at least for this patch, he's done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 *Pops into the Veigar discussion* His stun delay needs to be shorter, but outside that I think these are all positive changes *Pops out* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvan Nephilim Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Yeah I saw an idea on the forums that maybe Veigars stun should originate at Veigar and slowly expand outwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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