LoL General Chat

[Shanco]

From the League of Legends Screenshots topic:

i thought q couldn't crit tho?

Rengar's Q crit was only partially removed with a recent bug fix - since it's a next-attack modifier (changing the damage of the autoattack itself) as opposed to on hit effect like Decisive Strike, it works a bit differently in terms of crits. It had a base damage and an Attack Damage portion; the base damage no longer crits, but the Attack Damage portion still can.

This is how the crit works with Savagery as I understand:

Base damage: 20 x Savagery rank (Empowered: 15 + [15 x Rengar's level])
This does not critically strike

Attack Damage Ratio: 100 / 105 / 110 / 115 / 120% (empowered: 150%)
This can critically strike

I did some math at work today, and with an infinity Edge, an Empowered Savagery that crits deals 15 + (15 x Rengar's level) (+375% AD).

Let's take that with a level 18 Rengar with 300 Attack Damage.

15 x 18 = 270
300 x 3.75 = 1125

15 + 270 + 1125 = 1410 physical damage

So an empowered Savagery that crits deals 1410 damage.
If it doesn't crit, that number falls to 720.

If the rengar buys a Trinity Force, Spellblade adds 218 damage (Rengar's base AD at lv. 18 is 109). That damage doesn't crit, since it's an on-hit effect.

In comparison, a normal Savagery that crits with the same stats deals 1000 damage.
If it doesn't crit, it does 460.

The Empowered Savagery crits for massive damage, and since most rengar players get more than that (between IE / BorK / LW / Triforce it ends up around 300) that damage just keeps growing. 400 AD? Empowered Savagery crits for 1785 total damage.

Now you may ask "how is that balanced?"
While those numbers are massive, you also gotta remember that those numbers don't factor in armor/MR, and most squishies will buy armor / a Guardian Angel against a rengar that does that kind of damage. A rengar that builds like that would spend half his ult's time praying to the RNG gods as most assassin rengar builds have between 40-50% crit chance, tops. Also if he invests that much in damage, he'll be squishy and downed in no time in teamfights against decent players.

SIDE NOTE: IIRC, only Blitzcrank, Jayce and Jinx can fully critically strike with their enhanced Autoattacks (including bonus damage), since their modifiers multiply the damage dealt by the attack rather than working with base damages and ratios. Rengar used to be able to, as did Nasus and Garen, but not anymore.

[Jelly]

the only items you ever build on rengar that have crit are GB and Triforce... and you dont build them for the crit portion. crit rengar is bad and spamming dorans blades when you're losing is even worse

Edited July 9, 2014 by JellyMan

[Shanco]

Never said it was optimal. But a fun item if you get snowballing.

[Ikaru]

okay i retract my previous statement

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[Shanco]

Saw that coming. Mana hunger with a short range don't mesh well. This Lucian's already risking his life trying to empty his mana bar into a (usually) range-superior enemy ADC, least they could have done is help him out with something like this.

Wouldn't be surprised if the mana cost's removal gets reverted however.

[Mashew]

okay i retract my previous statement

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Retract it even more

Lucian

• Base health increased to 420 from 390
• Base movement speed increased to 335 from 330
• Base damage increased to 49 from 46
• Piercing Light ( Q ) no longer reads "Deals 75% damage to minions"
• Relentless Pursuit ( E ) cooldown to 14/13/12/11/10 from 16/15/14/13/12

[The Fush]

Riot what the actual fuck

[Jelly]

"nerfs"

[Neo]

PACIFIC FUCKING RIM

[Shanco]

"nerfs"

Consensus was, from what I read, that he still wasn't that good before these buffs. Gut feeling tells me this went too far though.

[Doj]

I don't even think the Riot balance team knows what nerfing means.

Most of the time they nerf something on what's generally known as a broken champ, they give that champ a buff to compensate

They're legit this stupid

[Amethyst]

Like that's nice and all that you have so little faith in the developers, but you're probably right about one thing: your idea of nerfing a champion, and theirs, is different. Riot's goal is not to make any champion Evelynn-style unplayable. They want every champion to have specific strengths and weaknesses, and that's going to require a few changes more than just taking power out of a kit.

[The Fush]

In this case though, it feels like they've taken away too little from him and given him too much. Tell me those buffs aren't a bit excessive in comparison to the changes made usually towards other champions.

On a brighter note, as said before, THOSE FUCKIN' MECHA SKINS

[Doj]

Like that's nice and all that you have so little faith in the developers, but you're probably right about one thing: your idea of nerfing a champion, and theirs, is different. Riot's goal is not to make any champion Evelynn-style unplayable. They want every champion to have specific strengths and weaknesses, and that's going to require a few changes more than just taking power out of a kit.

Evelynn is unplayable?

And I get all that. You can easily name one bullshit attribute on each champion. Like Vayne has true damage on her basic attacks, Shaco has a blinkinvisibility, Karthus has an ult that can hit everyone on the map for pretty high damage.

But then there's champions that have more than one of said bullshit attributes, that's when it becomes a problem for the champs with just one to compete with them.

Kassadin has a very low CD blink that deals AOE damage AND really good mana sustain

Lee Sin effectively has 7 abilities, is manaless, has literally everything; 2 gap closers, an execute, a slow, reveals, attack speed debuff, displacement, shield, tons of lifesteal in his kit

Yasuo has 2 passives for christ's sake

A good example of how a champ got balanced properly is LeBlanc. The fact she effectively had 4 gap closers AND a silence made her one of those champs. When they removed her silence she turned into a champion that wasn't overloaded with gimmicks.

That's how you balance champs. You don't adjust their numbers, you adjust their kits.

Have you seen Kayle be any less of a monster since her latest nerf? She's still pick or ban status. Same with Skarner. The nerf he got after his minirework hasn't made him any less viable.

[Doj]

How can one caster be so based

[Amethyst]

Evelynn is unplayable?

And I get all that. You can easily name one bullshit attribute on each champion. Like Vayne has true damage on her basic attacks, Shaco has a blinkinvisibility, Karthus has an ult that can hit everyone on the map for pretty high damage.

But then there's champions that have more than one of said bullshit attributes, that's when it becomes a problem for the champs with just one to compete with them.

Kassadin has a very low CD blink that deals AOE damage AND really good mana sustain

Lee Sin effectively has 7 abilities, is manaless, has literally everything; 2 gap closers, an execute, a slow, reveals, attack speed debuff, displacement, shield, tons of lifesteal in his kit

Yasuo has 2 passives for christ's sake

A good example of how a champ got balanced properly is LeBlanc. The fact she effectively had 4 gap closers AND a silence made her one of those champs. When they removed her silence she turned into a champion that wasn't overloaded with gimmicks.

That's how you balance champs. You don't adjust their numbers, you adjust their kits.

Have you seen Kayle be any less of a monster since her latest nerf? She's still pick or ban status. Same with Skarner. The nerf he got after his minirework hasn't made him any less viable.

And that's what riot is doing, they're adjusting Lucian's kit. They're not going to get everything 100% perfect right away because there is no 'perfect' in something like this, but they're not just splashing around and throwing darts at a board to decide what they do to him.

Also a lot of characters have two passives in some form.

With the Evelynn thing, I was referring to pre-work Evelynn. Originally she stunned a target whenever she attacked someone from stealth. This was super broken, so riot removed the stun and nerfed her into the ground so she wouldn't be toxic while they were reworking her, which took forever. So for a period of like a year or more, she was regarded as a very weak troll pick.

[Shanco]

Unrelated side note:

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Demonstration of creation of Sion splash at Arcade Con. Does give a hint of where they're planning to go with post-rework Sion...I think. Though it should be noted that this isn't the real thing.

[Doj]

And that's what riot is doing, they're adjusting Lucian's kit. They're not going to get everything 100% perfect right away because there is no 'perfect' in something like this, but they're not just splashing around and throwing darts at a board to decide what they do to him.

Also a lot of characters have two passives in some form.

That's not what they're doing with him

They're adjusting numbers, AKA shots in the dark because they have no idea what they're doing in the first place

[Amethyst]

• Relentless Pursuit ( E ) now reads: "Whenever Lightslinger [ his passive ] hits an enemy, Relentless Pursuit's Cooldown is reduced by 1 second ( doubles to 2 seconds against champions "instead of "If Lucian kills an enemy while The Culling is active, the cooldown of Relentless Pursuit is reset."

• Piercing Light ( Q ) no longer reads "Deals 75% damage to minions"

These aren't just numbers-changes. Even so, let's not underestimate the value that changing such a relatively significant number as the attack range holds.

[Doj]

These aren't just numbers-changes. Even so, let's not underestimate the value that changing such a relatively significant number as the attack range holds.

But that IS a fucking number change.

Piercing light now does 100% damage to minions instead of 75%.

[Ikaru]

Admittedly it IS still a numbers change (most things are), but it's a more important numbers change than .5 of an AD ratio like their last "nerf"; they said they wanted him to fit into the category of mobile spell-slinging carry (and one that isn't named Ezreal I guess) and with his main offensive spell doing full damage to minions it adds to that. The cast range on it is equal to his auto attack range so if he wants to use it on you now, he either

1) pushes the lane by targeting a minion(s) (more so being 100% damage to minions now)

or

2) walks right up to you

I looked at the AA range comparison between live and PBE and it didn't seem like much to me but I guess it's a bigger deal than it looks like. Along the lines of the strengths and weaknesses thing he's got good harrass and mobility, and his weakness is his range and I THOUGHT his mana costs but that's out the window now. Is that right? idk I still think this is dumb but I haven't ever had an interest in Lucian so that's not helping

[anethia]

People say low-range ADc's have shaky teamfights, and it's pretty true.

Quinn's range is 525, and she has "shaky teamfights." (I was told this was more because of her ult but shhh)

Lucian's new range is 500.

[Jelly]

graves' ranges is also 525 and he's one of the more "bursty" adcs. i think what riot were trynig to do is make it so low-range adc's deal more burst damage since what they have to do is go super ham and dive in for most of their damage. idk something like that

[Soysauce]

Sooo, they want Lucian to be "focus down a dude, kill that dude with one target burst, use E to do matrix-like dodges". Sounds good if you're even or ahead, sounds difficult if you want to catch up when you're behind. Quinn is """"""bad"""""" because her ult makes her melee range and her E can be suicidal versus people on their main champions with crowd control.

[Wizardchu]

Of all the adcs with low (<550) base range, I'd only call graves and maybe quinn bursty. The others (Kog, Sivir, Jinx, Urgot) have different tradeoffs for their low range, be it range steroids, innate tankiness, or defensive spells. Keep in mind that graves passive also makes him a fair bit tankier than other adcs, which is one reason why he can operate at low ranges. I picture post range nerf Lucian being very similar to Graves, but with far more sustained damage and comparable mobility to make up for his lack of tankiness. He's also got a more optimal build path for a low range adc (BotRK, Triforce, and Ghostblade synergize much better with Lucian's kit than Graves).