Balancing Type WITHOUT Modifying Type Chart

[Phi-Bi]

I always feel that the current type in Pokemon is not well-balanced. The most notable examples the over-abuse of Steel-type and the underappreciated Ice-type. The current metagame even revolved around Steel-type. Ground, Fire, and Fighting are considered "superior" mostly because they can get super effective STAB against Steel type. This limit the diversity of Pokemon choice so I think re-balancing is necessary.

However, I'm sick with how many fans attempt to balance the typing by modifying type chart. Mostly, it does not work well. Not to mention that it confuses the player since they have to learn new type chart. But how is it possible to balance the typing without modifying the type chart?

Well, GameFreak actually has some possible mechanics which can be explored more to balance the type. Some examples are:
1. Rock-type get Special Defense boost in Sandstorm
2. Grass type protected from Powder moves
3. Ghost-type cannot be trapped

However, those are not enough since I believe it's not intended to balance the type. So, let's do this: give your suggestion how to balance the type so each Pokemon's type has their chance to be recruited as a member of your team WTIHOUT modifying the type chart itself~ I have few examples:

1. STEEL
Steel-type Pokemon are too good with their resistances so let's nerve it a bit ---------> Steel-type Pokemon can only be switched at the end of the turn.
Since steel is heavy I think it makes sense that when you try to switch Steel Pokemon, the switch occur at the end of the turn instead of at the start. This will change how Steel-type is used dramatically since now Steel type cannot escape from super effective moves as easily despite having many resistances. Light Metal negates this effect.

2. ROCK
Rock is bad defensively yet it got defensive stat potential so let's up this a bit ---------> Rock-type get Defense and Special Defense boost in Sandstorm.
Rock-moves are good offensively sadly Rock-Pokemon don't get enough chance to use it well ---------> Rock-moves cannot miss if used by Rock Pokemon.

3. ICE
Ice is good offensively but no one want to use Ice for competitive reason except for specific roles so let's up their offensive potential ---------> Ice Pokemon get +1 priority/+1 speed of in Hail.
Maybe this is too OP but this gives the reason to use Hail and Ice type. Sadly, this is negated by Psychic Field so I'm not sure which one is worth, priority or speed.

There is still more room for other type balancing like for Grass and Bug (although some bugs are really good, not because of their bug type but because of their stat, other typing, moves, and ability). So, let's do this~

[DarkFighter15]

Grass pokes should get an additional ability that they get atk and defence stats doubled /×1.5 in rain and sun. 

Makes sense because both help plants to grow.

 

Ice types should get additional ability that super effective hits do ×1.5 DMG on them.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by DarkFighter15

[Octavius]

You can supplement buffs/nerfs indirectly in an unbelievable number of ways. Whether you change core mechanics (like freeze working more like burn/paralysis instead of sleep), moves (like magnet rise applying to your whole team instead of just the active mon), or abilities (like what you mentioned with light metal having a new competitive wrinkle to it), there's always going to be a trickle-down effect. this applies with changing the type chart, moves, mechanics, everything. and while it's difficult to do a complete overhaul without people being turned off by it, sometimes the best way to bring things into a better state of balance is a few quality of life changes. Like bug maybe not being resisted by every single type or ice having one extra resist so it can actually switch into moves sometimes.
Ultimately, you have to remember that most of the time, players are going to side with gamefreak's vision for balance over any one person or design team. Unless the person (or community overall) feels like gamefreak made a mistake in an isolated case and that the person's idea is better in line with gamefreak's overall vision than gamefreak's original idea was (in that isolated case). For example, I would venture to guess that most people would be supportive of a type chart change where bug now deals neutral damage to fairy instead of being resisted by it. on the other hand, i imagine people would think introducing a bug-type move with 180 base power and 100 accuracy that sleeps your opponent 100% of the time and has no drawback would be a terrible idea.
The problem of achieving better game balance isn't with type chart changes. Those are fine if done correctly. The problem is trying to over-adjust things where your own ideas become out of line with gamefreak's overall vision and thus aren't readily accepted.

So with that in mind, people would largely disagree with your steel switches out last nerf but be perfectly fine with your rock gets +1 defense as well as sp. defense in a sandstorm buff.

[HUEnd]

I'll write a discussion about this later but the TLDR version would be: Alolatales and Tyranitar would go straight to Ubers with these changes.

[Phi-Bi]

Thanks for your suggestion guys~ I have some feedback...

10 hours ago, DarkFighter15 said:

Grass pokes should get an additional ability that they get atk and defence stats doubled /×1.5 in rain and sun. 

Makes sense because both help plants to grow.

This is pretty interesting. I think the effect should be different for rain and sun respectively. I also have an idea that Grass-type should have auto big root as additional skill. Not sure which one will help balance more though.

 

10 hours ago, DarkFighter15 said:

Ice types should get additional ability that super effective hits do ×1.5 DMG on them.

Maybe this is too much since Ice-type is pretty threatening in PU metagame. I think Ice need a way to attack first since Ice Shard is not enough to help them--not more damage.

 

10 hours ago, Octavius said:

The problem of achieving better game balance isn't with type chart changes. Those are fine if done correctly. The problem is trying to over-adjust things where your own ideas become out of line with gamefreak's overall vision and thus aren't readily accepted.

I'm not sure what do you mean by GameFreak vision. Do you know exactly what's GameFreak vision? While not intended for game balance, Reborn Field Effect is "out of line" that sometimes it's' frustrating but fun.

The Steel type nerf may be not readily accepted at first. The same applies to Fairy immunity to Dragon back then. However, switching is almost non-existent in-game so it's not much on an issue. On the competitive side, people will use Steel-type more wisely. Right now, almost every team has Steel-type for the sake of Steel-type. It almost feels like a formula which is not healthy for the metagame. This way, people willing to use Steel-type have to accept that they have to play mind-games more to keep their Steel-type alive.
 

9 hours ago, HUEnd said:

I'll write a discussion about this later but the TLDR version would be: Alolatales and Tyranitar would go straight to Ubers with these changes.

If this is the case, then it's good for Uber. There is almost no viable Rock/Ice Pokemon in Uber and it'd be refreshing. Remember that Uber metagame is part of gameplay too and not just "trashbin for OP Pokemon."

I'd like to clarify that the goal of this balancing is not to break the boundary of tier but to make people consider using other type so no type is overlooked, just like how Reborn Field Effect promotes team diversity.

 

[DarkFighter15]

I think the steel type Nerf will be too much ad all three of its weaknesses are very common. It is true that all teams have a steel type but after this Nerf there won't be any steel types as-

 

Turn 1 - you vs steel Mon

Turn 2 - the steel Mon uses an attack and you switch to a fire fighting ground

Turn 3 - steels type poke is ruined

 

 

In this case the only option for steel to survive will be to switch on the same turn and that would mean that you won't be able to bring in steel types unless you have already defeated all the pokes in the opponent team who have good weaknesses to steel poke

[GenEric]

Then gamefreak should just use field effects

im not biased, but field effects are a good way to balance types because you can manipulate them to your advantage

[DarkFighter15]

@ArcherEric

Well that would be an interesting development

It would bring about a huge change in the mega game and add a lot of possibilities for strategy.  

 

 

[GenEric]

17 minutes ago, DarkFighter15 said:

@ArcherEric

Well that would be an interesting development

It would bring about a huge change in the mega game and add a lot of possibilities for strategy.  

 

 

Use grassy terrain

Typhlosion use Eruption

The grass is on fire!

Ninetales use Blizzard

The snow melted and water covers the arena

Ninetales uses Blizzard again

The water freezes

 

Thats how its going to shake meta game

[Octavius]

first of all, balancing mons has never been a priority for gamefreak. but since we're talking balancing mons...
based on their history, gamefreak actually balances mons around the VGC format (competitive doubles) but are still aware of the tiered 'showdown' format where mons are divided into tiers based on their usage. which means their overall vision allows them to create pokemon that are worse or better than pre-existing ones because then those pokemon would just find spots in different tiers. so it doesn't matter if a mon they create sucks competitively, because then it can just be used in a tier with all the other mons that suck competitively.

this post, though, is about the type chart overall. namely because it IS unbalanced. for example, there are far more bug and grass types in lower tiers than there are fighting or dragon types. and i agree with you in that it would be better to see a more equal distribution of types through all competitive tiers. But without minor changes to the type chart (which idk why you're more against that than other changes that people would also need to learn/re-learn), you're going to need more than just the changes you proposed to actually see any significant shift. namely because most of your changes are based around weather. and weather really only affects a handful of pokemon. like someone here said, weather setters would gain a massive boost with your changes, but leave most mons unaffected. gigalith would be way better, but sudowoodo sure wouldn't. changes would need to either affect a wider swathe of pokemon of that particular type than just weather mons, giving more pokemon the opportunity to have a niche (or reason to be used) in a higher tier in the metagame. OR implement changes that only affect select pokemon of a particular type (preferably sucky ones). For example, introducing moves or giving abilities to only the mons that are bad instead of just making tyranitar even better.

But to optimally balance the game, each pokemon needs to be looked at on an individual basis. Many pokemon are only used in the tier they are in because of a specific niche: like araquanid wouldn't be nearly as good if it didn't have access to sticky web or didn't have its water bubble ability.

 

Here are some better changes: 
Rock types:
1. have rock-types take no damage from stealth rock
2. introduce better special attacking rock-type moves or rock-type moves that grant temporary immunities (like magnet rise)

Grass types:
1. give more grass-types abilities that cover their weaknesses (like thick fat) or allow them to hit through their resistances (like tinted lens or a grass-type move that works like freeze-dry)
2. highlight grass-types' ability to be annoying: introduce a sucker-punch esque priority move and/or have worry seed act as an entry hazard with the same effect

Ice types:
1. change the Freeze mechanic to halving the opponent's Sp. Attack and have them be 'fully frozen' 25% of the time, unable to take action
2. make new ice-type moves that are like scald/thunder wave, but apply the new freeze mechanic instead

And these are just a few examples.

[Wolfox]

While I'm not a huge fan of the balance there is now, I like to think that it's at least better than in gen 5 where Dragons and Rain teams could just shpw up anywhere and win most of the time (but no-1 thanks fairies for balancing Dragons more. noooooo it's always the target of "It's a broken type that needs to get nerfed!"). Some types and mons are simply better than others. Example's are Fairy being a strong type while Bug is a weaker one.

[Phi-Bi]

8 hours ago, Octavius said:

based on their history, gamefreak actually balances mons around the VGC format (competitive doubles) but are still aware of the tiered 'showdown' format where mons are divided into tiers based on their usage. which means their overall vision allows them to create pokemon that are worse or better than pre-existing ones because then those pokemon would just find spots in different tiers. so it doesn't matter if a mon they create sucks competitively, because then it can just be used in a tier with all the other mons that suck competitively.

Ah, I see. This post is not intended to break the boundary between tier since I think it's fun that some mons are stronger and weaker than another. Like you said, it is intended to balance type distribution within tier to increase variety. The role of typing is central to Pokemon battle overall so it'd be great to see more type variety within tier. As of now, Uber is centered around Primal Groudon, OU with Steel-types (one reason Landorus is so good), and so on.
 

8 hours ago, Octavius said:

But without minor changes to the type chart (which idk why you're more against that than other changes that people would also need to learn/re-learn), you're going to need more than just the changes you proposed to actually see any significant shift.

But to optimally balance the game, each pokemon needs to be looked at on an individual basis. Many pokemon are only used in the tier they are in because of a specific niche: like araquanid wouldn't be nearly as good if it didn't have access to sticky web or didn't have its water bubble ability.

Adjusting type chart is more complex despite how simple it is. We can't sure what's the impact of the type chart change in every tier. It could affect the tier completely or have no relevant change. This is why the thread is made, to propose a change which impact can be more predicted so we can sure that the type distribution is balanced. My assumption is that balancing type distribution will increase variety and lead to more enjoyable gameplay. I wonder whether that assumption is true or not.
 

8 hours ago, Octavius said:

Here are some better changes: 

Rock types:
1. have rock-types take no damage from stealth rock
2. introduce better special attacking rock-type moves or rock-type moves that grant temporary immunities (like magnet rise)

Thanks for your feedback ^^ This is the goal of the thread, to ask for feedback to discuss with~
1. Well, no damage from stealth rock is nice but remember that rock is not good for taking damage upon switch-in so this will really help Aerodactyl and Archeops~
2. I don't know what is your direction with this one. Sure, another special moves is nice but I can't see how this will change type distribution in the tier...

Right now, the most prominent issue with Rock-type I think is their inability to use STAB effectively. Having Rock moves cannot miss if used by Rock-type sure will help. The Speed issue could be mitigated by Rock Polish so you can invest more in bulk to have a chance to setup. Of course priority is still an issue but in the sandstorm (if Defense boost is applied) will mitigate it. Of course some mons will be better than another but hopefully the type distribution in the tier will be balanced slightly.

 

8 hours ago, Octavius said:

Grass types:

1. give more grass-types abilities that cover their weaknesses (like thick fat) or allow them to hit through their resistances (like tinted lens or a grass-type move that works like freeze-dry)
2. highlight grass-types' ability to be annoying: introduce a sucker-punch esque priority move and/or have worry seed act as an entry hazard with the same effect

Yess, grass type ability to be annoying should be emphasized~ The issue with introducing new moves is their distribution. Like Parting Shot is great but its distribution is just horrible. Having worry seed as entry hazard will be interesting~ Grass type should be immune to such effect~
 

8 hours ago, Octavius said:

Ice types:
1. change the Freeze mechanic to halving the opponent's Sp. Attack and have them be 'fully frozen' 25% of the time, unable to take action
2. make new ice-type moves that are like scald/thunder wave, but apply the new freeze mechanic instead

And these are just a few examples.

I don't know how the change in Freeze status will help Ice-type. The issue with Ice-type right now is Stealth Rock and Speed. You want Ice-type to hit hard first before faint due to their weakness to commonly used offensive type (Fight and Fire...due to the omnipresent of Steel type and.....Steel due to the rise of Fairy). Having Ice type immune to hazard will be nice but I don't know how to make sense out of it. There will be still an issue with hitting first also since Ice don't have boosting moves (even if it have, do they have the chance to set up?) This is why I think priority is one of the most promising available choice among current mechanics.
 

5 hours ago, Wolfox said:

While I'm not a huge fan of the balance there is now, I like to think that it's at least better than in gen 5 where Dragons and Rain teams could just shpw up anywhere and win most of the time (but no-1 thanks fairies for balancing Dragons more. noooooo it's always the target of "It's a broken type that needs to get nerfed!"). Some types and mons are simply better than others. Example's are Fairy being a strong type while Bug is a weaker one.

Oh, yeah the balance is better now~ But it can be better, that's why this thread is made for fans to discuss the possibility of balancing type distribution~ Some types and mons are simply better than others and I like that. I kinda wish there are more type variety within the tier. I want to repeat that I assume that by balancing type distribution, there will be more variety within the tier.
 

10 hours ago, ArcherEric said:

Then gamefreak should just use field effects

im not biased, but field effects are a good way to balance types because you can manipulate them to your advantage

This will be interesting development although with the current move and ability, the game will be revolved around Tapus--specifically Tapu Bulu and Fire types which is against the purpose of increasing variety. On the other side, too much variety can be detrimental too since the complexities of Field Effect will made it to be abandoned by people despite how interesting it is....I can be wrong though, I wonder. That's why this discussion is started. To hear everyone's opinion~

[Hycrox]

Honestly, most of these changes are either impractical, broken, or just don't make much sense from how they're brought up.

 

So, things:

 

1. Reduce Stealth Rock damage

Spoiler

It's way too polarizing in pokemon as a whole. In my opinion, all current damage from it should be reduced to 2/3rds of its current damage, i.e. rock weak mons, take 16.6%, neutrals take 8.3%, etc. This would still keep it relevant, but not make part of the game all about it.

 

2. Give Ice-types a Defence boost on Hail

Spoiler

Honestly, the ideas to help ice presented before are either way too broken (priority and speed in hail), or just largely impractical and convoluted ("new freeze"). This gives a nice parallel to Rock-types in the sand, and it gives Ice-types some newfound defensive potential to work with. Most of Ice's weaknesses (Fighting, Rock and Steel here) rely mostly on physical attacks. Think of where the likes of Cloyster, Walrein, Avalugg, Silvally, and many others, could be with this.

 

I could go on, but effort

[pyrromanis]

Most of the changes I saw here are either going to be broken or have a very specific niche. If you want to buff/nerf types but not touching the type chart for whatever reason, you have to then look to individual mons.
For example the Ice type has so many weaknesses but great offensive coverage. But if you look at the Ice types you'll see that most of them are more defensive oriented than offensive. The most offensive ones like Weavile, Kyurem-B and Mamoswine are easily on the higher tiers while defensive mons like Avalugg, Regice and Articuno are sitting in the bottom. What Ice types need are more offensive pokemon and less defensive and particulary with and evenly strong offensive secondary typing. Also Hycrox's suggestion about Stealth Rocks doing less damage would also help the more defensive ones, but at the same time might make other types even greater pivots (imagine an Amoonguss or Toxapex taking almost nothing and heal it back with Black Sludge). Nerfing SR damage but also making it stackable twice sounds more fare imo.
Rock type on the other hand what is lacking were speedy offensive mons. Thankfully Gen7 gave us a bunch of them with Minior, Nihilego and Midday and Dusk Lycanrocs but they are not enough. More special attacking Rock types would be indeed better so they don't get easilly get screwed by Intimidate of physical walls, but what Rock types need more are reliable set up sweepers! You can say that Rock types have many set up users but most of them are meh or straight up bad. Most Shell Smash users are not that great due to the defense drops so they have to switch out against common priority moves like Bullet Punch or Water Shuriken. Rock Polish for slower wallbreakers like Aggron and Rhyperior it's still not enough to outspeed many common pokemon that can revenge kill them and Swords Dance has only a handful of good users, mainly Lycanroc-Dusk Terrakion and Kabutops in Rain teams, which all would also wish that had a 4th attacking move too. The best imo are Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Tyrantrum and with Hone Claws M-Aero falling a bit behind due to 4mss. Personally I would love to see more Rock types that can boost 2 or more stats at the same and have an easier time sweep than Shell Smashers. Like a Bug/Rock type with Quiver Dance at a respectable speed tier would be amazing.
As for Grass types what we need is better abilities and coverage for them. No more Chlorophyl and Leaf Guard users and more Grass types with coverage that matters. For example a fire type move like Solar Ray or something that is quite widespread would be great. Or at least more offensive special Grass types with Earth Power or physical with EQ. The ones that already get EP are most of the time carrying it and the ones that can get EQ have it mostly for luring reasons.

[NickCrash]

The reason people fix the type chart by altering the type specifics is simple: build from the base up.

 

You claimed that learning a new type chart would confuse players, yet you don't see how these added non-intuitive changes will confuse people much more.

The suggestions are one-sided so much that the metagame would crumble on its own weight. 

 

Ice needs to be fundamentally boosted. Had we found a formula that does that without destabilizing all other types, we would have solved the problem.

In fact, on showdown there used to be a community working on that thing with moderate success.

 

Also, I believe you are stuck on Gen5 when talking about Steel. That was when Fighting, Ground and Fire were considered overpowered types.

Right now the undisputed king is Water, and it has been since gen6, as non-STAB Grass and Electric attacks are rare.

 

The types that need buffs are: Ice, Grass, Bug, Poison

The others are fine.

 

 

As for the Stealth Rock proposal, there has been a solution suggested before:

Double Resistant pokemon receive 3%

Resistant pokemon receive 6%

Neutral pokemon receive 12%
Weak pokemon receive 20% damage

Double weak pokemon receive 35% damage

[Hycrox]

@NickCrash imo take bug off that list and maybe replace it with rock. By itself it's pretty bad, but there are already plenty of great Bug-types. And at least some of them would get maybe too much of a buff from boosting the type either defensively or offensively (the latter also helps U-turn users too)

 

@pyrromanis Stall mons generally don't care much about rocks already, especially those two, since they just get their health back with Regenerator/Black Sludge/reliable recovery. Though Nick's disposition is better generally, for offensive mons. Stacking rocks would be a good idea, but it'd just make the game revolve even more on the rocks

 

I mostly went without referring the type chart to abide by the topic for a while, but in my opinion, to stabilize the type chart to its best, I think that there should be these changes:

 

Spoiler

-Ice would resist Dragon

-Steel would resist Dark again, but not Ghost

-Water would be weak to Poison

-Flying wouldn't resist Grass (someone think of a better one for grass)

-Fairy wouldn't exist

 

I could do this with the Fairy type here if needed, but don't really think it's needed tbh

 

[NickCrash]

If I'm forced to change the type chart

Psychic resists Fairy

Ice resists Dragon

Poison is SE against Water

 

Dark is resisted by Fighting, Fairy and itself

Ghost is resisted by Dark and Normal is immune

 

They are pretty balanced.

 

 

Another thing we could add is a Def boost to Ice types during Hail, similar to SpD boost to Rock during Sand.

Rock types have key resistances to Flying and Fire, which makes them unique to Steel.

Thing is they are both weak to Fighting and Ground, making Steel superior (especially till gen 6)

[Octavius]

The current state of affairs in pokemon is too convoluted to change only a few things and call it balanced. Any time you change the type chart, it creates a massive ripple effect: if poison is now super effective against water, for example, that's not only a nerf to water but also a nerf to fairy and grass. Because if you make poison stronger, all the other types that are weak to poison will suffer by extension (like poison being more commonly carried as a coverage move). And by extension you also buff psychic and ground because those attacking types suddenly become more important to have against the more prevalent poison type. And of course that also buffs steel (and the poison type itself) because its poison immunity becomes even more powerful.

Any time a meta-defining change like that is proposed but you want to maintain a similar state of balance to the previous meta, there ultimately have to be underlying changes to offset the ripple effect created by the gigantic change. And unfortunately, those smaller changes also create ripple effects to the point that you eventually have to rebalance every pokemon on an individual level, every item, ability, move, and mechanic. 

So if you're going to try and tweak one thing, you have to realized that it will completely shift the entire meta. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, though. You just have to be aware that it is a thing. It also means people are going to have to relearn how to play the game around the new meta that's been created. Remember the changes to Knock Off and the introduction of the Fairy type? Completely changed everything. But eventually the dust settled and a new metagame with new strategies formed around the new system. This happens in basically every generation of pokemon, so no matter how much people complain, they;ll eventually either adapt or not associate with the new stuff. So no matter how much or how little you change as far as game balance is concerned, you're going to be left with a new metagame with its balances and imbalances. Some metas will be better than the previous ones; some will be worse. But no matter what you do or what changes you think would be best, there's always going to be resistance and people who think they know better. 

And while all of us have our own ideas for how to improve the game, i doubt any of us have ever actually tested our proposed changes to see how they would actually shake things up. And that's fine; we just have to remember that none of us can actually back up any claims that say one idea is better or worse than another. At least not with evidence that isn't just hypothetical.

But I think we can create a list of common ground ideas: for starters, can we all agree that mons without any competitive viability or niche (idk, like dewgong or meganium) deserve to have a way in which they can distinguish themselves from other mons that are strictly better versions of themselves?