Kyurem-B for OU

[Kamina]

So it has been a long time since I have posted a thread about making some changes to the tier system that we have atm and they have not gone that well and usually resulted in getting out of control and name calling and such. So before I put down ideas I would like everyone to have an open mind before writing things down in the comments and try to make them as intellectual as possible and not something like

Groudon for.OU

Just recently Kyerum-B had been demoted to UU in PO and they are starting to have a debate over whether it should be kept there or not. According to their statistics, Kyerum-B was only being used in about 3.5% of all the OU matches in PO and it begs to question as to why we ourselves have not at least considered moving kyerum-B to OU.

Now before you guys come out and say that we do not like modeling ourselves after smogon and PO well I only have one thing to say and that is that we were the guys who always embraced different types of pokemon in our OU that no other place had done before like allowing deoxys- speed/ blazakin/ exadrill and swift swim. It seems inconceivable that just 5 months ago that we would ever ban a pokemon to Uber which PO and Smogon are now considering for UU.

I have already mentioned earlier that Kyerum-B has only been used in 3.5% of all the OU matches in PO and in my time in reborn I only remember a 2 ubers ladder matches in reborn that actually used Kyerum-B. If Ame can find the official statistics and post it that would be nice! Im willing to bet reborn rupees that its less than 1% of every match

Why Kyurem –B should be moved down!

Movepool- For a dragon/ice type that specializes in physical attacks its move pool is quite limited. The only physical stabs that it has access to and that are viable are Outrage and Dragon Claw. Outrage has a lot of power but it has a lot of downsides with it. The only physical stab ice move that Kyerum-B can learn freeze shock but that move takes 2 turns to use. Also unlike other dragon Pokémon, it can’t learn dragon dance so its sweeping potential is quite limited. Its other powerful physical move is Fusion Bolt and coupled with Dragon claw/Outrage does not have good coverage at all.

Base Stat- I know this is the reason why most of you guys think that he should be in Uber is because of its huge attack stat but as I already mentioned his move pool is extremely limited and its speed stat is sub-par compared to even other OU sweepers. Marowack has an even bigger attack stat with thick club yet we do not just automatically cry uber when we see it because its speed stat is not that good in OU and the same goes with kyerum-B in Uber and OU.

Effects on metagame – Well it’s another toy to play with. I could theory craft all it would bring but as we can see in PO it’s not even used that much in OU. Even so it should be demoted to OU because of the reasons stated above and for all we know a bunch of people could start using it in ladder. Kingdra with dragon pulse, exadrill with iron head, Ludicolo with focus blast, blazakin with high jump kick, scarf terrekeon, bullet punch scizor, mach punch Breloom all of which are extremly common in OU already counter every kind of Kyerum-B there is. ferrothorn/ Gliscor/foratress can also tank any more that kyerum-B tries to dish at it.

Balance – limited move pool makes it easy to counter as well as its dismal speed stat. also its typing makes it take a ton of damage from stelth rocks which almost everyone runs on their team nowadays.

Lets make it OU (~ ^ _ ^)~. I am open to discussion as long as it stays intelligent. Thank you all for reading and I would like to see what you guys think about it.

[Dark Desire]

This seems like a wonderful idea in my opinion, and the statistics were beautifully stated aswell with the reasons and opinions. Nice work here Kamina!

[Hyouka]

HOLY SHIT AN I DEA THAT MAKES SOME SENSE SOMEWHAT. (I say somewhat because I read what I thought important.)

[Duster]

Considering everything else in OU, I'm suprised that Kyurem-B is still Uber. I agree it should be bumped down.

[Mashew]

inb4wehavetoclosethistopic. I really hope it doesn't come to that.. Again.

[Neo]

It's a good idea, but the way it's presented could use work. It's kinda like you're just repeating "Well, it sucks. So move it to OU" or "Well look, do we really want Beta and Smogon to look better than us?"

[Kamina]

yes maybe in the first half of what i wrote i might have not provided any solid evidence as to why Kyurem-B should be banned besides saying that we are not jumping into the bandwagon but i thought the second part was more focused as to why we should actually demote Kyurem-B by movepool, Base Stat, effect on meta game and balance. If there is any suggestions on what i should specifically add that would be appreciated.

inb4wehavetoclosethistopic. I really hope it doesn't come to that.. Again.

I have a feeling this time is different (i hope)

[Shanco]

Droppin' in. I'm with Mashew here, although that might be inevitable, sadly...

The way I look at it is the movepool: yeah, it sucks - it doesn't even get Earthquake. But it's got some nice moves going for it. I've found that it's an incredible user of a sub-roost phazer set - the best, I think. Freeze Shock - yes, the move sucks. But who needs that when you have access to another version of Mold Breaker, and Dragon-Electric neutral coverage? This thing plows through walls better than Haxorus, Excadrill, and even TR Rampardos, while even having perfect neutral coverage barring Excadrill and Magnezone.

Its base stats are the reason why it's so scary. Base 170 Attack, like I said before, plows through walls in combination with its Ability. It also has 120 base Special Attack so it's ridiculous from that side of the spectrum. 95 base Speed is very viable for it to be a sweeper due to its awesome bulk. Oh yeah, the bulk. One does not simply say no to 125/100/90 defenses. Adding on top of that a resistance to Water-, Electric- and Grass-type moves, making this a total shutdown of Pokemon that attempt to stop rain teams. It takes a lot to get through to it and OHKO it, and if we're talking a neutral attack is not going to do anything to it that it can't heal off without investment.

The vulnerability to Stealth Rock...yeah, it's not that big an issue or else Volcarona wouldn't be OU, maybe not Dragonite either. Rapid Spin support is easy to find with Tentacruel, Starmie, Excadrill, Cryogonal, etc., that clear these things away - in the case of the latter two, they between them have no problem killing off the setters (Jirachi, Skarmory, blah blah). Give it the right team support (ideally RS + rain) and you'll see the reason why we leave it in Ubers speak for itself.

[Summer]

we do not just automatically cry uber when we see it because its speed stat is not that good in OU and the same goes with kyerum-B in Uber and OU.

Scarf everythinG!

If Ame can find the official statistics and post it that would be nice! Im willing to bet reborn rupees that its less than 1% of every match

Come @ me bro, I use it so often it's not even funny. Hahah.

Dis gif <33333

Anyhow, I do agree with this. Kyurem B has awful potential. It's movepool and speed is horrible, it's Ice type, and the ugly design is bad.

However, putting it in OU will encourage Hail users to put in Kyurem-B (Not that it's scary or something). I'm not sure what this could achieve, but whatever~

[Neo]

It wouldn't hurt to have a testing period. Also, Ryan, there hasn't been much discussion on it other than: "Well, it's in ubers."

[Kamina]

Droppin' in. I'm with Mashew here, although that might be inevitable, sadly...

The way I look at it is the movepool: yeah, it sucks - it doesn't even get Earthquake. But it's got some nice moves going for it. I've found that it's an incredible user of a sub-roost phazer set - the best, I think. Freeze Shock - yes, the move sucks. But who needs that when you have access to another version of Mold Breaker, and Dragon-Electric neutral coverage? This thing plows through walls better than Haxorus, Excadrill, and even TR Rampardos, while even having perfect neutral coverage barring Excadrill and Magnezone.

Its base stats are the reason why it's so scary. Base 170 Attack, like I said before, plows through walls in combination with its Ability. It also has 120 base Special Attack so it's ridiculous from that side of the spectrum. 95 base Speed is very viable for it to be a sweeper due to its awesome bulk. Oh yeah, the bulk. One does not simply say no to 125/100/90 defenses. Adding on top of that a resistance to Water-, Electric- and Grass-type moves, making this a total shutdown of Pokemon that attempt to stop rain teams. It takes a lot to get through to it and OHKO it, and if we're talking a neutral attack is not going to do anything to it that it can't heal off without investment.

The vulnerability to Stealth Rock...yeah, it's not that big an issue or else Volcarona wouldn't be OU, maybe not Dragonite either. Rapid Spin support is easy to find with Tentacruel, Starmie, Excadrill, Cryogonal, etc., that clear these things away - in the case of the latter two, they between them have no problem killing off the setters (Jirachi, Skarmory, blah blah). Give it the right team support (ideally RS + rain) and you'll see the reason why we leave it in Ubers speak for itself.

252Atk Blaze Blaziken (+Atk) Hi Jump Kick vs 0HP/0Def Kyurem Black (Neutral): 112% - 133% (440 - 522 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. 252Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 0HP/0Def Kyurem Black (Neutral): 72% - 84% (282 - 332 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0HP/0Def Kyurem Black (Neutral): 82% - 98% (324 - 384 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill (+Atk) Iron Head vs 0HP/0Def Kyurem Black (Neutral): 75% - 89% (296 - 350 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252SpAtk Sniper Kingdra (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 0HP/0SpDef Kyurem Black (Neutral): 112% - 133% (440 - 522 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. 252SpAtk Sniper Kingdra (+SAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 0HP/0SpDef Kyurem Black (Neutral): 72% - 85% (284 - 336 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252SpAtk Ludicolo (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 0HP/0SpDef Kyurem Black (Neutral): 62% - 73% (244 - 288 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Terrakion (+Atk) Close Combat vs 0HP/0Def Kyurem Black (Neutral): 109% - 129% (428 - 506 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

Its typing makes it weak to steel/rock/fighting/dragon and theres more than enough of those moves to stop it on its tracks. The above shows

just a few of the common pokemon used in OU after stealth rocks that are garunteed to one hit ko and out speed the scarf varients.

the Non scarf would have even more counters like jirachi, kledeo, special landorus ect...

As for pokemon that can completely wall Kyerum B if its running choice band/scarf there is gliscor/ Skarmory/ ferrothorn/ foretress/ any ground

pokemon if it is stuck on fusion bolt.

I dont see the sub roost dragontail being much of a problem at all to deal with. Dragon tail will always go last [and wont do much damage anyways]

and with its bad typing i do not see it being much of a hasstle. Also as i pointed out in the beginning its not even being used that often in

PO OU which does not even allow blazakin/ exadrill and the swift swimmers.

http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?17728-Suspect-Discussion-Kyurem-B

[Dark Desire]

Ooo.. Didn't think those half those moves would 2hko and ohko Kyuerm, thanks for those Kam.

[Amethyst]

I actually was already planning on including this next time we go through revisions, but that said, we need to get Clear Skies done first.

[renowner]

I don't think its OU material, its definitely ubers to me. All those damage statistics were with 0 hp, and 0 def/sp.def investments, and I think base 95 speed is quite a bit, its faster than kyogre, groudon, dialga, zekrom, reshiram, both of giratina's forms, ho-oh, and speed ties with rayquaza, and of course kyurem-w. And that's just the pokemon in ubers. Its speed is certainly not bad enough in my oppinion to recommend him for OU play. There will always be counters in OU and lower tiers for ubers, that doesn't mean that they should be bumped down. Ferrothorn completely stops kyogre, but that doesn't change anything, ferrothorn is outclassed by most other ubers. Yes, Kyurem-B's physical movepool isn't that great, but with JUST outrage, it can destroy lots of pokemon, and total walls. With a choice scarf, it can out-speed most any pokemon that doesn't itself have a choice scarf, and with its great bulk, a choice band isn't out of the question, and in that case.....we're all doomed. Marowak may have a great attack stat, but it's wtih an item, and it doesn't compare to a choice band to many pokemon (except you can still use all your moves) and its speed is awful and it cannot survive most attacks, one or two at best on the physical side. Its good for trick room teams, but not much else. Kyurem-B has the second highest attack stat of any real pokemon, second only to attack form deoxys, and has the second highest base stat total, tied with Kyurem-W, and second only to Arceus itself. So even if its movepool isn't that great, I don't think having some OU pokemon that can defeat if if they get an attack off, and a slightly bad movepool make it OU material, I think it would definately be a great choice-sweeper in Ubers play, its outrage attack would be devastating to any pokemon, that hasn't buffed up its defense considerably.

I suppose it doens't hurt to test it for awhile, but most OU teams are definately going to probabally use it, and will definately need a counter for it.

And I also must say that you've done a great job arguing your points.

Edited January 5, 2013 by renowner

[Kamina]

@renowner

Thank you for you imput!

When i was doing the damage calcs i was doing it under the assumption that people would be running the choice scarf sets which is why all those pokemons that i calculated would out speed scarf kyerum - B in the first place. As for base 95 speed, i don't think there is one ou sweeper that without a priority would not be able to out speed it Kyerum-B without a scarf and with a scarf i already gave a list of extremely common pokemon in OU that with priority or weather could one hit ko Kyerum-B with after taking initial stelth rock damage [ while completely ignoring other scarfed pokemons or sashed sweepers which would also be able to get the job done]

As for its defensive stats and Hp you have to also take into consideration its bad typing and common moves like stone edge, focusblast, close combat and draco meaeor and weakness to hazards in general and its inability to out speed most OU sweepers.

The reason why a pokemon like Kyoger is Uber and not OU is due to the fact that it has a very good move pool and its typing is also not that bad and its ability to summon rain all at the same time. Thunder watersprout and ice beam hit almost every typing with super effective damage and a full health water sprout in rain will do a ton of damage to even a ferrothorn. I dont know any priority move or a weather initiator that could one shot a kyoger. meanwhile Kyerum-B typing makes it weak to a bunch of priorities and to weather abusers as well [mentioned earlier].

I agree that Kyerum-B could potentially demolish pokemon in the Uber tier but that is not explaining why PO is considering moving it to UU and why almost no one in their OU or Uber ladder are actually utilizing it.

Thank you for taking you time to post though! If you have more to add about Kyerum-B i would like to read about it .

[Bazaro]

Kamina and I made a bet... I would make a team with Kyurem-B and battle him. Being Kamina and all, I lost, so I have to support Kyurem-B for OU. Other than being forced to, I agree. The statistics and all that have already been said have been... said. Not much more to add...

[Kamina]

if anyone else wants to battle me using Kyerum-B and OU i will be glad to do so. Alt i will be using is MeatyOwlLegs and pm before you battle so I know

i promise i wont use weather or Kyerum-B. but you guys can.

[Godot]

I am gonna look into this guy a lil' more before I post about him... I am iffy about this one

[Summer]

Kyurem B is easily countered if a choice item is held, and without choice items, it can't do a thing. I've tested it and Heatran walls it almost perfectly when Banded/Scarfed.

[Zhujiao]

In 100% honesty, the only reason I want him in ubers is because his brother is in ubers and I hate singling a pokemon out like that, he really isn't that fit for ubers, I wouldn't complain if we moved it down, it would just look really ugly to me. I would never use it anyways.

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

I completely agree. There's honestly no reason it should stay in Ubers. As far as im aware, the only reason its in ubers is because of his huge BST and Attack stat.

Sure, he DOES have a huge attack stat, but he has horrendous typing, 2x weak to Stealth Rock, weak to the most common priority moves in Bullet Punch and Mach Punch and also weak to some of the more broken stuff in the tier:

Kingdra - Draco Meteor / Outrage | Ludicolo - Focus Blast | Excadrill - Iron Head / Rock Slide | Blaziken - Hi Jump Kick|

Other things :

RPLandorus - Focus Blast | ScarfChomp - Outrage | ScarfLatios - Draco Meteor | Terrakion - Close Combat / Stone Edge | Tornadus-T - Focus Blast | Thundurus/-T - Focus Blast | Mamoswine - SuperPower | Breloom - Mach Punch | Scizor - Superpower / Bullet Punch |

The list honestly goes on and on, and that doesnt even include defensive threats.

He may have a high BST, but his typing alone makes him really bad, and his moveset is even worse, consisting of Outrage and Fusion Bolt. Great.

I think he should be moved down.

[Ikaru]

Admittedly at first I thought PO was crazy when they did it (or was that Smogon?) because it has such massive attack and its other stats are also pretty good aside from its Speed, but now I kind of see why it's not so great; 170 base STAB Outrage still isn't much of a laughing matter if it's played right but I'd say I'm not entirely opposed to this.

[Noivy]

Both sides so far have good reasons beside them, but I must side (And please dont yell at me for thinking this you old timers) But Im for the OU side. While Kyurem B has god like stats, it doesnt have the movepool adequate for it. It learns so many special moves, but only learns so little Physical moves, and it's limited. The only good STAB Physical moves it has is Outrage and Dragon Claw and the Freeze Shock, which takes a turn to load and another to use. It doesnt even learn Earthquake for crying out loud. It also shares the same weakness as it's regular forme and somewhat in its White forme. Steel Types completely wall it. Kyurem learns NO Ground OR Fighting type moves that have adequate power to crack steel.