Official Super Smash Bros. Thread for Wii U and 3DS

[Shanco]

So at the weekly last night, a bunch of us including myself and some players from around here (mostly for fun but nonetheless seriously) devised an interim tier list while we wait for the reddit monthly one:

A Tier

+: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi

=: Ryu, Fox, Rosalina, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Pikachu

-: Mario, Donkey Kong, Villager, Ness, Captain Falcon, Yoshi

B Tier

+: Ike, Shulk, Greninja, Wario, Lucas, Marth, Dark Pit, Roy, Meta Knight, Pit

=: Olimar, ROB, Link, Mega Man, Bowser Jr., Mii Brawler, Lucina, Lucario, Mr. Game&Watch

-: Little Mac, Falco, Kirby, Ganondorf, Bowser

C Tier

+: Robin, Toon Link, Wii Fit Trainer, Jigglypuff, Mii Gunner, King Dedede

=: Charizard, Palutena, Dr. Mario

-: Mewtwo, Mii Swordfighter, Zelda

D Tier

=: Samus

[Dark Desire]

my list of changes I would make to the list:

-lower luigi to A -

-rosa to A +

-lower donkey kong to B +

-raise olimar to A -

-lower shulk to B -

-swap marth with lucina

-drop ike to B =

-metaknight to A-

i have a bit of a problem with the C tier, i feel like most of the characters listed barring Mii's/Dr.Mario/Mewtwo/(and maybe jiggs/Toonlink?) should be in with the B-'s and I don't think any character right now deserves a D rank so I'd probably place samus in higher C, i feel like after all these patches that the low tier is starting to disappear and filling into lower mid

[Shanco]

Replying in a spoiler, since this is longer than I anticipated it'd be.

-lower luigi to A -

Would agree here, but Luigi has been placing very high in local tournaments, even above the other characters like Sheik. I was pretty outnumbered by the people who thought he was top tier.

-rosa to A +

We were pretty divided on this. We eventually came to this conclusion because Rosalina can't kill anything without Luma, and that she has Mewtwo syndrome (she's too light for a hurtbox of her size).

-lower donkey kong to B +

Disagreeing here, Donkey Kong's Cargo Up Toss to Up Air combo kills the current top tiers as low as 70%. It's pretty bullshit, you get grabbed and you die. He also has impressive offstage game in the event that he can't get those grabs.

-raise olimar to A -

There's too many things that hold Olimar back now. Attacks have terrible priority, Smash attacks can be reflected, and he gets gimped offstage pretty easily.

-lower shulk to B -

Shulk is a great character, with his long reach for zoning and great aerials. One of the few that can contest sheik offstage with the FAir and, if sheik is stupid, a counter. Just nobody plays him for whatever reason.

-swap marth with lucina

This would hold up if Lucina actually had reliable kill moves - sadly she only has F-Smash, while Marth can devastate people with all sorts of tippers.

-drop ike to B =

Ike is kinda weird, but I think I can agree here. Just how he ruins high recoveries and can kill people so early - Eruption edgeguards are also a thing, which many characters not named Sheik can't handle if it's timed right.

-metaknight to A-

Meta Knight isn't quite there yet, he has range issues and struggles with approaching. It'll take time for people to come around with him and then maybe he's probably A- not counting potential balance changes (which probably won't affect him; he's pretty balanced)

i have a bit of a problem with the C tier, i feel like most of the characters listed barring Mii's/Dr.Mario/Mewtwo/(and maybe jiggs/Toonlink?) should be in with the B-'s

I can't really speak to too many of the low tiers with the exception of Palutena, whose playstyle is not very good for the current meta when faster characters can easily nullify her zoning/turtling with speed. She does have a good recovery though, and a good counter/reflect can turn a battle. Infinite Jab is really good too, and so is up air.

She'd be better with more/stronger kill moves.

I don't think any character right now deserves a D rank so I'd probably place samus in higher C, i feel like after all these patches that the low tier is starting to disappear and filling into lower mid

Ahahahaha. Samus is almost unanimously considered the game's worst character right now as not only does she have no reliable kill moves, she doesn't have any reliable setups for the unreliable ones either - she is almost entirely dependent on getting a read with Charge Beam or D-Air. She also faces the same playstyle issues as Palutena except they're worse for Samus. If she gets more setups into aerial combos then maybe she'll get better but until then she'll seen as the worst.

She really hurts online though, where people can't react properly to her grappling and whatnot. Probably a C+ or B- online.

I can agree with you about the low tier disappearing though.

[Another Felix]

Samus is not that bad. There is one guy at my local who plays her absurdly well. It's moving to a new location soon, so maybe we'll be able to set up a stream so people can see that she doesn't suck.

[Godot]

Pikachu is way better than listed. Ryu is a little bit lower and Fox is way lower. Fox has a ton of counters. I main both and they have feel that they are only good against certain characters. Though fox struggles WAY WAY WAY more than Ryu does. Fox struggles against anyone who is floaty, has priority, or has "easy to get out of combos" moves. Some examples are jigglypuff, little Mac, Sonic, Mario, peach, and mother fucking Luigi. Luigi takes absolute shits on fox.

Idc what you say about DK, He is as powerful as Ike IMO. I would argue that one is slightly better.

Robin and Kirby are also higher IMO, though not much higher. Bowser and Ganon are slightly lower than listed IMO. Bowser is easy to outspeed and Ganon has shit for approach. Anyone with a projectile can harass them for days. Even if you have a shitty projectile. Though they both have dirty tricks people aren't aware of, it is hard to get someone to fall for them twice.

Samus is the worst. This is coming from a samus main. I can list several reasons why. Also she doesn't lack "kill moves". She just can't land them.

[Shadow Tack]

...Why is toon link lower then link, as much as i hate to say it as a link main, tink is better in every way except that absurd combo throw and the first hit of Fsmash killing at the tip... and Dair but we don't talk about that

[Dark Desire]

just having a grab that can combo into something is enough to make link better since sm4sh is so shield heavy and all his tilts kill so he doesn't have to rely on his smashes as much as toon link does

[Godot]

Toon link is better due to his ability to spam projectiles and apply pressure with bombs and boomerang. It has nothing to do with his kill power. The roster struggles with toon link as a whole more than they do with link.

[Shing]

Eh fuck it, i was going to make a long ass post to you shanco, but i think i'll keep it short.

As dark did, characters that should move up and down.

Characters that should move up.

- Rosalina(From A= To A+)

- Mario(From A- to A=)

- Ness(From A- to A+)

- Toon link(C+ to B=)

- Zelda( C- to C+)

Characters that should move down.

- Ryu(From A= to B+)

- Donkey Kong(From A- to B+)

- Marth( From B+ to C+)

- Lucina( From B= to C= or maybe C+)

- Ganondorf( B- to C-)

- Bowser (B- to C=)

- Palutena(C= to C-)

[Shanco]

@Rosalina: see above post

@Mario: uh...I don't know much about Mario, at least in comparison to the other folk, so I won't say anything about this

@Ness: very much in disagreement. Ness kinda gets rekt by Sheik and Rosalina. He shares Captain Falcon's issue where he is edgeguarded easily, which gives him problems against characters with good gimps (ex. Ike, Ganondorf, Luigi). Online he's an absolute terror, offline he's good but not top tier. I also utterly destroyed a Ness in the tourney I went to on Thursday, so my opinion might be a tad bit biased.

@Toon Link: Staying away from making a case here although I am more in agreement with Dark Desire here. No one here plays Tink either so that might have skewed opinions.

@Zelda: she has great kill moves, but no setups for them except for dash grab combo, so players will be looking for that at higher %. She has questionable shield pressure as well, which also hurts her. That's all I can speak to on her though.

@Ryu: Playing Ryu takes some work but we've seen some top Ryu play here thanks to Falgod and n0ne, and holy shit he can dominate in the right hands. Can win spam wars vs Needles, gets frame 1 Super Armor, vicious setups, combos and KO confirms. He also gets the pseudo-Waveland thanks to FADC which gives him plenty of options including (but not limited to) a big F-Smash. Until someone convinces us otherwise, we believe that Ryu is very high tier, especially as he can best Sheik more easily than most in high-level play.

@DK: see above post

@Marth and Lucina: these two are definitely not low tier anymore. They have ridiculous aerial combos, great walling moves, low landing lag, and other redeeming qualities that make them awesome. Marth has favorable matchups against Rosalina and Roy, two flavors of the month, and while Lucina does alright with them, she has a few better matchups of her own - she trades early kill moves for all around damage.

@Ganondorf: people sleep on this guy all the time. He seems bad just because of h nature of his moves, but many Ganon players fail to understand that he is more about strategy and tactical prowess than raw mechanical skill. He also has a lot of favorable matchups this time around thanks to his rediscovered combo game and edgeguarding - just the reason why he's been placed so low on many tier lists is because of the Sheik matchup, which is...putting it nicely, brutal for him. Nonetheless he is anything but bottom tier.

@Bowser: Can't speak to him.

@Palutena: see above post

More in the morning

[Shing]

@Rosalina

Fine enough.

@Ness

I see. But the reason i put ness that high is because of how much damage and combo he can do.

Also back throw at high percent arrgh. But agree too disagree in the end.

@Toon link

Fine enough.

@Zelda

Alright. I don't know exactly too much of her, but i don't think she is that low for me.

@Ryu

Can't disagree, he is really damn good.

But his recovery and air isn't the best thing. Characters like mario, villager and pikachu could hold ryu out really.

I should set him in A-. but highest of them in A-.

@DK

Disagree bit back. While he have the bs combo thing, his hitbox is just big to combo.

He can't take exactly projectiles, the edgeguard isn't really good i think.

I guess agree to disagree.

@Marth and Lucina

Fine enough, i didn't know too much of them.

So i guess i have not so much though the matchup.

@Ganondorf

I though he was put so low is because of how much projetiles he hates, slowness and bad recovery.

Also can you give me a link of the "rediscovered combo".

@Palutena

Fine enough then. Reasons is good.

[Godot]

Ganon also has Zero Approuch options, that combo game has always been there. People knew about it, it was no secret... maybe to smash players? Vortex and Hard Knock Down gameplay has always been a thing in fighting games. Like I said, Ganon has a lot of dirty tricks that won't work twice.

And Ness struggles with Rush down... and most of the top tiers are rush down or hit and run poke characters... He doesn't handle that well.

[Shing]

Yeah the ness one is true.

Anyway playing ryu around again after a month.

He is still a fun character to use, bit hard. But shoryuken it's not impossible.

Get the pun?

[Godot]

I am pretty shoryuken make better use of the word if you want to make a pun out of it.

[Shing]

I am pretty shoryuken make better use of the word if you want to make a pun out of it.

...

You just didn't do-

Unbelieveable you just did that.

Anyway i suck at puns, so agree really.

[Shadow Tack]

So i went to my frst tournament today... one of the other people had almost the same name as me, with a one letter difference and the same pronuciation, ended up going 1-2, better then i expected, but i feel bad for the guy i beat though, i don't think he'll be back, as he was easily the most casual player there.

[Shanco]

I also went 1-2. That did mean, consequentially, that I didn't make it out of pools. I did have to go up against Blacktwins, who is one of the top players in the area, but I managed to hold my own against him until a crucial mistake against his Shulk.

Had tons of fun commentating though, I've started to become a regular caster here, as a result of a bizarre twist of events...

[Shing]

Rather bit late, but how do you think about this tech guys?

[Omega_Ra1der]

Quick Question for the future: What is sheik's bad match-ups?

[Dark Desire]

Quick Question for the future: What is sheik's bad match-ups?

none except for MUs that are skill based

[Shadow Tack]

Quick Question for the future: What is sheik's bad match-ups?

mindgames are shiek's bad MU's

[Shanco]

Sheik as I understand loses to Ryu, but I think that's about it. Ryu outspams Sheik with his Hadoukens, has plenty of options to snuff her kill moves/setups, and ruins her with combos, OOS options and potent kill moves of his own. Once he gains control of the neutral it's hard for Sheik to regain it outside of a missed Focus Attack, Shoryuken or smash.

[Godot]

@ shing, I like it. I will play around with it using my Mac and Fox later.

As for Shiek. One big thing that screws with her is short characters that can duck under her needle spam. Without her needles she can't instant win neutral and is forced to approach. Which can be bad for her. I know Kirby and Jigglypuff can harass her this way.

Shiek also has short limbs and when she is close quarters or in a bad position where she can't use her needles, she can struggle with characters that have high armor attacks. Some examples are little mac's smash attacks, palutena's and Jigglypuff's dash attack. DK's up B and Punch, game and watch's and bowser's up smash, and lastly charizard a side and down b.

Edit: Thinking about it more, that tech you had shown, shing, can be the most useful for little Mac. He is all about staying center stage and controlling it. Annoyingly enough, he gets a lot of opponents who do nothing but hug the edge and shield when he gets close. This gives him another option to cross those players up. As well as another option to attack those who he has asserted offstage.

[Omega_Ra1der]

@ shing, I like it. I will play around with it using my Mac and Fox later.

As for Shiek. One big thing that screws with her is short characters that can duck under her needle spam. Without her needles she can't instant win neutral and is forced to approach. Which can be bad for her. I know Kirby and Jigglypuff can harass her this way.

Shiek also has short limbs and when she is close quarters or in a bad position where she can't use her needles, she can struggle with characters that have high armor attacks. Some examples are little mac's smash attacks, palutena's and Jigglypuff's dash attack. DK's up B and Punch, game and watch's and bowser's up smash, and lastly charizard a side and down b.

Edit: Thinking about it more, that tech you had shown, shing, can be the most useful for little Mac. He is all about staying center stage and controlling it. Annoyingly enough, he gets a lot of opponents who do nothing but hug the edge and shield when he gets close. This gives him another option to cross those players up. As well as another option to attack those who he has asserted offstage.

inb4 I officially use pikachu or jigglypuff. Btw, I have been playing around marth and Ike. My Luigi nairing and partly sheik play time helped me with both of these.

[Dark Desire]

Sheik as I understand loses to Ryu, but I think that's about it. Ryu outspams Sheik with his Hadoukens, has plenty of options to snuff her kill moves/setups, and ruins her with combos, OOS options and potent kill moves of his own. Once he gains control of the neutral it's hard for Sheik to regain it outside of a missed Focus Attack, Shoryuken or smash.

ryu is probably one of the easiest characters for sheik to combo on, she's fast enough to easily dodge hadoukens and there's no way for ryu to get back onstage against her edge guarding tactics