Dev Blog | V11 Status Thread

[0ris]

I wouldn't mind having Mega Evolutions be implemented as early as the first gym, provided that the player is also provided the Mega Ring at least immediately after that gym battle.

 

To me, Mega Evolution and Z-Moves add another layer of complexity, and one of the main reasons I play Reju and Reborn is the Pokemon play-style with difficulty that doesn't feel dumbed down at all. I'd like to see the aforementioned events happen as often as possible within reason (every gym leader should have those, and every important rival/enemy leader, but not random trainers).

 

For example, I'm in the process of writing a scenario for a possible Pokemon fangame of my own, even if it being made never comes to pass. The first gym is Dragon-Type, and the Leader uses a Mega Druddigon (new for that game). Fairy-types are available before that Gym in abundance, and the rest of her Pokemon don't pose any major threats as Dragons are actually quite weak when base-stats aren't high, but it could show the player that they need to be prepared for any important player, especially Gym Leaders, throwing a Mega Pokemon that stands head and shoulders above the rest of their team at the player. How do you overcome that roadblock? Type-matching? A well-placed Z-Move? Countering with your own ace/Mega? All are possibilities, and so long as the player's options are balanced so that victory is a possibility through multiple ways, the creativity in victory that is Pokemon shows itself even better than in the simple scenarios that are omnipresent in the main-series games.

 

As for Field Effects, I believe that first Leader should go out of their way to explain what they are and what they can do so that players unfamiliar with the Reborn system don't miss crucial information that they might ignore by not talking with every NPC or looking in every random cavern cranny. Gym Leaders having access to Field Effects and beneficial weather conditions make sense to me, since Leaders are in my opinion supposed to be the epitome of battling against their type, which should come with all of the advantages and disadvantages of being restricted to a single type. Too often in the main series games Leaders were made far too easy due to being limited to one easily exploited weakness. For example, Fire-type Leaders/Elites in all generations have been little more than jokes due to omnipresence of Surf and easy access to common Rock-types, but the heated fields and sunlight give Fire-types the power to eliminate Rock-types that lack special bulk and removes the pressure that Surf would otherwise present.

 

In other words, I really love what's been done with Rejuvenation in every way, from the serious story to the gripping battles, and I'm as excited for the release of the next chapter as anyone. To me, it feels like a very polished game with an engaging plot and gameplay far more entertaining than any other Pokemon game (I love Reborn too, but the lag just gets me down sometimes. Oasis hunt aggghh). Also: if this post was too off-topic since I tend to really get into things, please let me know and I'll cut it down.

[SoraBell]

I think implementing core game mechanics too late in the game is an rpg no no, mega evolutions being implemented in the last patch, hell even the last couple patches is bad because while it does preserve difficulty.

 

These fights aren’t really difficult past narcissa since you have a wide variety of Pokémon to choose from and essentially infinite rare candies with breeders. Mega evolution being added before narcissa would be op, but all of the gyms after that are largely irrelevant do to the breeders making experience a moot mechanic and you don’t really need to worry about making a well balanced team that you dedicate your exp to; When you can just catch the counter pick and train it in about an hour.

 

A lot of the fan games that have mega evolution, have this notion that it should be added late into the game but by the time you get it, the player largely has little to use it on. They should honestly take a page from X and Y and give it to us early instead of Sun and Moon when there is little to do with it. It’s worse here because at least those games have competitive scenes but I doubt Rejuvenation is getting a meta and with this game’s dialogue heavy patches. The gym leaders and notable battles should be challenging and incorporate all aspects of the game by this point since trainer battles don’t actually matter anymore. (V10 only had like 4 notable encounters, Aelita rift, Souta, Vivian and, Kenneth some of which had mega evolution)

 

Tl;dr I would say adding Z moves and mega evolution while using even more powerful field effects towards the end of the game would allow for more diversity and allow specific encounters to shine. Instead of all gyms being rendered to, go catch that Pokémon and run through, we should be given all aspects of game play, by at least crawli and be allowed to fend for ourselves using the tools we’ve been given.

 

But that’s all my opinion. 

 

(Edit- if some mega want to be held for late game such as mega Salamance or mega metagross because of how op they are, that’s fine. But some such as Mega Audino don’t really need to be held back that long.)

Edited November 26, 2018 by SoraBell

[0ris]

I do agree. Mega Audino and a few others (I intend to have many more single-stage/"weak Pokemon" Megas) should be available early, especially when field effects exist. A Mega is a single Pokemon, whereas fields can alter the entire battle to a certain type's favor. High-BST Megas as you've mentioned can wait for longer periods of time. Speaking of Audino, I don't mind being able to get my Pokemon up to speed quickly, but I wonder if the consensus is if it's a good design choice or not to have limitless free experience. Insurgence had the player pay for the privilege of Audino punting, Reborn lacks easy methods for exp entirely, and Rejuvenation is at the other end of the extreme.

 

I know if I do end up ever getting my own game off of Word and into RPG Maker, it's going to feature Mega Evolutions for the player at least as early as the second Gym and have the concept mentioned and heavily discussed at least after the first gym. My plan is to have my first Leader be an expert of sorts on Mega Evolution, and potentially for NPC ordinary trainers to use Megas once in a while (perhaps optional mini-bosses guarding items or offering gifts upon victory, or somesuch).

 

I'm actually not as big a fan of Z-Moves. There's no way to tell when they're coming the first time around, then, BAM, the Pokemon you were using is gone. However, they're a part of the game, and they have their place for the player to use to bust open certain annoying walls. If there was a way to make the NPC trainers use them creatively, I'd be all for that.

[Kuro Barukan]

I honestly couldn't care less if we got mega's and Z-moves or not, all I do care about is finishing my Greninja's Speed IV's in that vaccine PokeCenter. I still only have enough money to finish off Greninja, I'd like to be able to finish without editing or using mods unless I want to try the battle theme pack.

[Commander]

44 minutes ago, 0ris said:

I wouldn't mind having Mega Evolutions be implemented as early as the first gym, provided that the player is also provided the Mega Ring at least immediately after that gym battle.

 

To me, Mega Evolution and Z-Moves add another layer of complexity, and one of the main reasons I play Reju and Reborn is the Pokemon play-style with difficulty that doesn't feel dumbed down at all. I'd like to see the aforementioned events happen as often as possible within reason (every gym leader should have those, and every important rival/enemy leader, but not random trainers).

The simple way to put it is that adding either in just adds a layer of balance needed. It definitely is possible to balance Megas around V7 or V8 areas but I don't think the devs are willing to go through with it. At first, I was a hard ass about it being available in Hardcore/Redux, but now I don't care so much so it'll stay where it is. There's actually another reward that people probably will be shocked I even am willing to give them. It breaks a lot of the difficulty, but personally after a certain point it's fine imo. If they complain about a game being too easy using mechanics they worked hard for, it was them that used it in the first place. We could go either way with this argument as there's pros and cons to both.

 

The thing about the Mega Ring and Z-ring is the fact it's controllable so I don't see why everyone is so stubborn to make it available so late. It's worthless without the Megastones or Z-crystals anyways and some Pokemon need Megas or they fall off as worthless and by the point you get the mega, nobody is going to use it. Z-crystals are a different story since any Pokemon can slap one of those on and use it. Specialty crystals like Pikachu's really could be brought in and used so there's no excuse pushing it so late again. In fact, most people who play Reborn won't even have this item by the time they finish the game and won't even know it's obtainable in the game. Let that one sink in.

 

55 minutes ago, 0ris said:

For example, I'm in the process of writing a scenario for a possible Pokemon fangame of my own, even if it being made never comes to pass. The first gym is Dragon-Type, and the Leader uses a Mega Druddigon (new for that game). Fairy-types are available before that Gym in abundance, and the rest of her Pokemon don't pose any major threats as Dragons are actually quite weak when base-stats aren't high, but it could show the player that they need to be prepared for any important player, especially Gym Leaders, throwing a Mega Pokemon that stands head and shoulders above the rest of their team at the player. How do you overcome that roadblock? Type-matching? A well-placed Z-Move? Countering with your own ace/Mega? All are possibilities, and so long as the player's options are balanced so that victory is a possibility through multiple ways, the creativity in victory that is Pokemon shows itself even better than in the simple scenarios that are omnipresent in the main-series games.

There's a lot of questionable variable there with that logic as even a normal Druddigon would be a major threat for a first gym and pretty much be the equivalence of Florinia's Cradily but stronger. This is going off the basis the first gym is fought in the 20s. Even with fairies that thing is nasty and could shred a few of those into pieces. Anyways, the best way to teach players is to make them rethink what they're doing or destroy their brain. Beat 'em dead before they start. Best trick is to throw them something that isn't too threatening so long as you don't go full offensive. If you teach a player a bit about defensive tactics and their benefits, they'll keep that in mind and use it later. It's a good old show, don't tell type tutorial. Don't worry too much about the available Pokemon so long as it's enough and more to figure out how to take a boss down.

 

1 hour ago, 0ris said:

As for Field Effects, I believe that first Leader should go out of their way to explain what they are and what they can do so that players unfamiliar with the Reborn system don't miss crucial information that they might ignore by not talking with every NPC or looking in every random cavern cranny. Gym Leaders having access to Field Effects and beneficial weather conditions make sense to me, since Leaders are in my opinion supposed to be the epitome of battling against their type, which should come with all of the advantages and disadvantages of being restricted to a single type. Too often in the main series games Leaders were made far too easy due to being limited to one easily exploited weakness. For example, Fire-type Leaders/Elites in all generations have been little more than jokes due to omnipresence of Surf and easy access to common Rock-types, but the heated fields and sunlight give Fire-types the power to eliminate Rock-types that lack special bulk and removes the pressure that Surf would otherwise present.

Explaining stuff ain't going to do any good. I don't know why so many games bog down up to and over an hour of tutorials when they rarely do much. There's no good way to do it, but there's ways to get creative so players at least learn about it. The two simple ones should be have some random trainers make good use of the field but an easy enough battle that it doesn't last or drag out too long. Another one is to throw a quiz early in the game asking questions regarding fields which a player could study up and read to get a nice reward. That's the simple fix.

 

The true issue isn't the inclusion of field effects, but of how little impacting and involved they are. They were mostly used in boss fights up until E18 areas which trainers with one or two Pokemon used them. This idea is a bit too little too late unfortunately as most of the time players are thrown into an unfamiliar field effect right at a big boss. Some people will hate it while others might not mind due to being thrown into an unfamiliar experience and having to learn through trial and error. It's more important on the design side though because most of these fields are ingrained in my head after doing revision after revision look up what the effects do.

 

31 minutes ago, SoraBell said:

I think implementing core game mechanics too late in the game is an rpg no no, mega evolutions being implemented in the last patch, hell even the last couple patches is bad because while it does preserve difficulty.

Going to have to agree to disagree. Adding all the mechanics of a game at once is just going to fly over everyone's head so slowly adding more and more keeps things interesting and adding even more layers to the gameplay. A simple one is each tower that's cleared allows for the main character to use a brand new power or spell. Big mechanic changes or additions shouldn't happen later than the 70% mark since that gives enough time to be familiar and adapt towards it. One I can think of off the top of my head is Tales of Graces f's Accel mode brought in for the postgame content (it's a long story though).

 

I think the bigger issue is the fear that adding a game changing mechanic like Megas may ruin the game's experience since the game won't be as difficult. Personally, I felt that way at first but nowadays I stopped caring and probably would say late game is a good place to put it as I don't think megas and z-moves really add that much enjoyment. I can make good fights without megas, z-moves, or seeds even, but they are there so I'll still use them. Of course I'm aiming for a harder variation in a mod. For a normal game, it doesn't matter so much because a game being easier doesn't make it bad. In fact, more people will actually find it enjoyable. I think people need to get it through their head harder does not mean better. Anyways, I don't think it really matters too much since a handful of Pokemon are going to fall off regardless such as Spinda, Stunfisk, Garbodor, Electrode. All of them are still usable but they fall off.

[SoraBell]

My ideal point was after the 4th gym in rejuv which is well into the game’s narrative. There aren’t many new concepts added here so I don’t see a problem. 4/18 badges then using mega and z moves for the rest adds a very heavy layer of optimization. 

[0ris]

For me, harder does mean better. I've been playing Pokemon since before I could read, although I stopped for a while until I picked up Insurgence a while back. When USUM released , I got UM, but it was so easy it was boring. Rejuvenation does it right giving the player choice of difficulty modes. I pick Intense, whereas other players pick easier modes, and that's perfectly fine.

 

One of the main reasons I play these games is to test my mind against challenges others have designed. The other is the story: I appreciate how dark the tone is for Rebo/Reju. It makes the game feel more like an old FF game in tone than a Pokemon game, but I prefer a gritty fictional world to a fluffy, idealistic one anyway.

 

In terms of design for Mega Stones, I want the opponents to have access to them, but I also want the player to be able to use them if they choose. More Mega Stones for weaker, less-flashy Pokemon is ideal, especially considering that some people might have unusual favorites. Mine is Mawile, and I was overjoyed to see that it had received a fantastic Mega Evolution in XY. What if someone does in fact want a Mega Spinda, Mega Butterfree, or Mega Corsola? By adding Mega Evolution early game and balancing the Mega Stones received early game around the current opponents, it may be possible to find a way to make Mega Evolution as omnipresent as Field effects. I picked Druddigon because it's easy to control the moveset and have it make sense if it's fought around level 20. It's not going to be able to do more than Scratch the average Fairy, and the Mega form will still be slow as dirt. Poison or burn it and it's not likely to give the player too much trouble from then on, or switch between a Fairy and a Ghost until it gets even harder for it to attack effectively due to PP loss.

 

Of course, I just really love Mega Evolution and want to make it work. It's just such an awesome feeling to watch one of my favorites jump up in power or even to see the opponent Mega theirs and just feel the rush of "how do I deal with this thing" come on.

 

I agree with your points about explanation of Field Effects, and I realize you're right saying that it would be better to give a brief demonstration rather than walls of text. When I started Rejuvenation, I was blindsided by the different effects more than once until I started reading the attached manual. I didn't think they'd be important, but now I constantly need to keep those issues in mind. I agree that more trainers should also take advantage of terrain/weather: I was playing Reborn today and ran into the Hiker with the level 1 Aron, and I was happy to see that at least one NPC was designed with the weather in mind. It doesn't have to be that extreme, as I'd enjoy seeing even NPCs with, say a Lotad and a Pichu in rainy/water surface area (Ex. a Youngster standing in a puddle who mentions something about him having a "field advantage") in the first area. Those Pokemon shouldn't be any threat even at the early game, but might hit a bit harder or survive for longer in the right conditions.

[Jan]

 

Quote

I think implementing core game mechanics too late in the game is an rpg no no, mega evolutions being implemented in the last patch, hell even the last couple patches is bad because while it does preserve difficulty.

 

A lot of the fan games that have mega evolution, have this notion that it should be added late into the game but by the time you get it, the player largely has little to use it on. They should honestly take a page from X and Y and give it to us early instead of Sun and Moon when there is little to do with it.

Well, firstly, most RPGs (namely JRPGs) introduce core mechanics even during the last parts of the game. That much is common.

Secondly, Sun and Moon gave you the Mega Ring after the game is done, where there's nothing left to do. Rejuv is not going to hold off megas that long. 

31 minutes ago, SoraBell said:

My ideal point was after the 4th gym in rejuv which is well into the game’s narrative. There aren’t many new concepts added here so I don’t see a problem. 4/18 badges then using mega and z moves for the rest adds a very heavy layer of optimization. 

There seems to be a misconception on why I hold the Mega Ring back. It's not because I don't want to be generous, or "omg too op, can't let the players have that". The #1 reason I'm holding off Megas is because there needs to be some sort of progression when it comes to power. Rejuv is a long ass game. Sure, there are already strong mons in the game but unloading everything on the player at an early point is a no-no because it just makes everything stale. Things need to be trickled in or a lot of the game just becomes boring because you have everything. It's also bad practice, imo. 

[Commander]

So I'll be blunt that I kind of really don't use the Mega or Z rings simply because I've kind of fallen off of Pokemon past Gen V. So my value in their worth is probably much lower than other people's. I just think Megas looked cool and it was as close to old Pokemon getting new evolutions as we're ever going to get. Gen 8 will throw something new and broken to us later. Anyways, there is one point I do want to make: I really hope you don't follow the Reborn philosophy of how Megastones and Z-crystals are handed out. I'd rather it be the reverse and we don't find Megastones and Z-crystals until after we obtain the Rings because it is a tad annoying picking up all these things and them being nothing more than collectibles. It always feels better when you pick up something that you can use and can consider using.

 

This is getting a bit off topic though so I'll stop. Jan pretty much said everything I more or less agree on. If you want to continue, I'd say make a thread in the Fan-game Expose as I'm sure quite a few people would chime in.

[Cerulean]

13 hours ago, Jan said:

 

Well, firstly, most RPGs (namely JRPGs) introduce core mechanics even during the last parts of the game. That much is common.

Secondly, Sun and Moon gave you the Mega Ring after the game is done, where there's nothing left to do. Rejuv is not going to hold off megas that long. 

There seems to be a misconception on why I hold the Mega Ring back. It's not because I don't want to be generous, or "omg too op, can't let the players have that". The #1 reason I'm holding off Megas is because there needs to be some sort of progression when it comes to power. Rejuv is a long ass game. Sure, there are already strong mons in the game but unloading everything on the player at an early point is a no-no because it just makes everything stale. Things need to be trickled in or a lot of the game just becomes boring because you have everything. It's also bad practice, imo. 

But I still really love this game Jan-san keep up the good work. Gambatte, Sensei

 

Poem made by me 

One will plunge Aevium into disarray

One will bring Aevium into a brighter day

Those who shine with the light brings order

Those who obliterate with the dark brings chaos

The Being of α – Beginning one that creates

The Bird of Destruction one that destroys

Time draws near

You lose those you hold dear

The time has come

To prepare for what’s to come

Waiting for the final battle to decide

Who will win?

The shining light?

Or the obliterating darkness?

[Pata733]

What the poem suppose to mean

Are you foeshadowing Aevium destruction?

Or are saying a hero will prevent it?

Is this the end or the beginning

Does someone come back from the dead

Or are we going to have to make another choice

Could it be a custom made legendary

Or a clone of one?

Or is this Madame X talking

Could this be it for us

What could this poem be saying!

JK! I just wanted to make a long comment for laughs

Back to the thread and spending time with beta-chan:)

[Cerulean]

47 minutes ago, Pata733 said:

What the poem suppose to mean

Are you foeshadowing Aevium destruction?

Or are saying a hero will prevent it?

Is this the end or the beginning

Does someone come back from the dead

Or are we going to have to make another choice

Could it be a custom made legendary

Or a clone of one?

Or is this Madame X talking

Could this be it for us

What could this poem be saying!

JK! I just wanted to make a long comment for laughs

Back to the thread and spending time with beta-chan:)

So you like the poem?

The bird of destruction is Yveltal

The being of alpha meaning beginning in the Greek alphabet is Arceus

The worriars of the light fighting against the worriars of the dark.

 

[Lunar Star]

That is quite the poem . I liked it a lot

[ShadeStrider]

Infinite in mystery is the gift of the goddess.

[Lunar Star]

i still cant stop tinking about what madam x tells the player or whoever at the start of the game. But eh. Not the place to talk about it

Edited November 27, 2018 by Lunar Star

[Cerulean]

So what have we (the squad) got so far?

 

Can I call this group the Rejuvenation Sqaud or the R Squad?

[Lunar Star]

2 hours ago, Cerulean Azure Brawler said:

So what have we (the squad) got so far?

 

Can I call this group the Rejuvenation Sqaud or the R Squad?

For a name i dont know. And what do you mean by got so far?

 

[Cerulean]

1 hour ago, Lunar Star said:

For a name i dont know. And what do you mean by got so far?

 

The theory based on the characters.

 

The name for the group that we share theories about Rejuvenation.

 

[Gen5Lover]

Am i only one who would rather see z-ring first and later get mega ring?

[Cerulean]

23 minutes ago, Gen5Lover said:

Am i only one who would rather see z-ring first and later get mega ring?

I'm getting feels for a Z-ring. 

[Lspaceship]

1 hour ago, Gen5Lover said:

Am i only one who would rather see z-ring first and later get mega ring?

As long as they don't throw Z-Moves at us every other Xen battle before we get it, I'm down for whatever.

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

1 hour ago, Gen5Lover said:

Am i only one who would rather see z-ring first and later get mega ring?

They're functionally the same thing; Z-Rings enable mega evolution too. 

[ShadeStrider]

3 hours ago, Ice Cream Sand Witch said:

They're functionally the same thing; Z-Rings enable mega evolution too. 

Z rings Enable Z moves. Mega Rings enable Mega Evolution. I think you confused them.

[ArcBolt27]

Just now, ShadeStrider said:

Z rings Enable Z moves. Mega Rings enable Mega Evolution. I think you confused them.

z-rings enabled mega evolution in sun/moon/ultra sun/ultra moon too

[Ya Gorl]

Just now, ShadeStrider said:

Z rings Enable Z moves. Mega Rings enable Mega Evolution. I think you confused them.

No, in SuMo the Z-Ring was used to mega-evolve Pokemon as well as using Z-Moves, although you did need a Keystone with the Z-Ring for mega-evolution.