Really though, Objectively, the MC is the most likable character.

[ShadeStrider]

The MC is completely silent, and as a result, nobody knows us. No one knows what  we want. They don't even ask. They just assume that the MC wants to become the pokemon champion, even though the MC never says anything.

 

Despite never really being understood and never actually getting a genuine show of appreciation for our efforts, Instead getting the occasional reward that is usually just a tool for us to move on to our next task, we still try to help everyone. 

 

We've even put our own life in danger multiple times in order to help people.

 

Maybe I'm biased. We are supposed to be the MC, and like all silent protagonists, we are supposed to project ourselves onto the MC. But my points still stand.

 

 

Edit: Don't forget that we almost never sleep. We just get the occasional Nap and then it's back to helping people. Seriously, We should actually be dead, speaking realistically.

 

 

 

 

[andracass]

i find the mc kinda bland.

i like my characters with some....character.

[seki108]

The only major frustration with dealing with the MC

 

Spoiler

don't take this reply seriously

 

[ShadeStrider]

18 minutes ago, andracass said:

i find the mc kinda bland.

i like my characters with some....character.

To be fair, you are supposed to be the MC. It's like the MC in the main pokemon games or even Legend of Zelda.

 

This is also kind of the Bias I've talked about.  You are technically the Main Character, so you are automatically biased towards Him/her/xyr. It seems that I have fallen victim to this type of Bias.

[andracass]

link is link

he does some good shouting

[ShadeStrider]

3 minutes ago, andracass said:

link is link

It's the same concept. It's the reason a lot of us think Link is the best character in the Zelda universe: Because we are him.

[andracass]

i like midna more

she has character

[ShadeStrider]

2 minutes ago, andracass said:

i like midna more

she has character

Midna for Smash Bros. Twilight Princess is the Best Zelda game.

[andracass]

3 minutes ago, ShadeStrider said:

Midna for Smash Bros. Twilight Princess is the Best Zelda game.

i'm about 70% sure I agree with you

[Wolfox]

I never count silent protagonists as actual characters because, as you said, they are supposed to project YOU. Thus it would not be fair to judge a character like that like all the others. And, believe it or not, I'm not the biggest fan of Silent Protags. if they're there it's fine, I will probably still enjoy your game, but I won't count them as the best character. That's one of the main reasons I dislike Red in any game that isn't Kanto based. Red is a Character with no character, so why project him in a way where his Silent Protagonist status adds nothing?

[Commander]

I don't get how the MC is the best character when most of the complaints are centered around factors due to the MC not being able to talk. Titania mercifully killing: nobody is there to challenge her. Victoria: the player has no interaction with her and therefore shortens what little development she has to even less. The whole orphanage arc: you may as well not even be there. I get the idea but when it comes to customizeable MCs, I rarely see a good one done right.

 

Link from the Zelda series is an entirely different subject. The schematic design for LoZ series is exploration and puzzle solving so whether or not Link talked wouldn't make much of a difference. While I would point out how WW Link is one of the most expressive, I know most people refer to OoT Link when making comparisons. The plot is very simple and the characters aren't too involved in it merely serving as guides usually making you still feel in control of what's happening. Link's sound effects are tools of immersion as when he falls or gets hit he makes certain noises, but that game's environments are what make the experience so immersive. I mean I personally felt a dread of terror when climbing up Death Mountain with a bunch of falling rocks all around me...running and ducking for my life.

 

You really do not want to challenge me on silent protags because I've written A LOT here and there on my thoughts usually only scratching the mere surface of my full opinions. There's a very good reason most of the modern RPGs have stepped away from the silent protagonist due to the sheer number of drawbacks and issues that arise. But if you really want me to list all the great things the MC did here's what we have:

 

Spoiler

-they were a small almost insignificant help at Mossdeep Factory (Julia and Florinia easily could've taken them all down theoretically)

-they stopped the Pulse Tangrowth in Obsidia purely due to ZEL's cockiness

-they managed to stop the Pulse Tangrwoth in Jasper and rescue the officers (though the latter is optional so only +1)

-Beryl Ward they needed Heather's help who easily could've stomped all three of them

-Pushed Corey to the breaking point commit suicide (-1 point there)

-Caused major trauma to a gym leader due to the point above

-Pushed Fern to be an even bigger A-hole than before (though it's debatable if the MC is factored into that)

-Almost put Shelly in an Orphanage which is more or less an Asylum for the mentally disturbed children

-Joined a gang to perform illegal activities (-1 point)

-Broke and entered an orphanage to kidnap children (-1 point)

-Left the children to not only to be captured, but came up with such a ridiculous plan that required days of effort instead of letting Victoria help rescue the children leading to the death of a leader that possibly could have been avoided by simply not showing up in the first place (-2 points)

-Lets terrorists escape after losing a Pokemon battle (-1 point)

-Saved children hostages...but not really since Charlotte more or less is the one to save them all

-Helps Anna get better by giving her Medicine...even though she didn't need it (+1 point out of pity)

-Kills many endangered animals on route 1 and/or captures them (-1 point, but 0 here since it technically is optional)

-The entirety of Episode 9 was Saphira saving everyone's ass

-I guess I'll give them a point for stopping the teleportation scheme, but that ultimately helped the villains out by letting them keep their lives as Lin would've probably slaughtered them avoiding a certain hostage situation and death down the line...wait we'll give that a neutral 0 points

-Instead of listening to an intelligent man who clearly isn't worried, runs towards a crazed cult guy not only almost losing their lives for being reckless but thanks to that man who was not threatened from the threat or hostage they were saved (-1 point) also for having random butterfingers (-1 point)

-For trusting Radomus and/or El (-1 point because those two are sketchy)

-Falling for an obvious trap on 7th street (I won't deduct a point here since Bennett wasn't seen as a bad person in their eyes at that point)

-Stopping Bennett from Stalking Luna (+1 point)

-Going into an area with knocked out gatekeepers unprepared expecting everything to be okay leaving them trapped in a circus for a long portion of the game (-1 point)

-The Amaria suicide actually wasn't the player's fault but somehow Titania kept a diary that Amaria somehow never found and read for years despite them being lovers

-The player's inability to figure out they could try climbing over the ice pillar instead of trying to dive in frigid waters (-1 point)

-Also for thinking diving in frigid waters was a good idea (-1 point)

-For not suggesting they blow a goddamn hole in the ground to get around the barrier to Labordor City (-1 point)

-Traveling alone into Cyberspace against a dangerous terrorist (-1 point)

-Making "friends" with Terra (+1 possible point)

-Letting Titania kill the terrorists (+1 point)

-Because everyone trusted and decided to side with Taka, a member of a terrorist group (-1 point)...seriously, y'all are asking to be killed

-When entering Devon Corp and noticing some oddities, deciding to continue on to what was clearly an obvious trap (-1 point)

-Murdering a terrorist by killing the Pulse Magnezone (+1 point) possibly slowing down their plans

-Being the chosen one cliche (-1 point due to bias)

-Your existence apparently helped stop bad stuff (+1 point?)

-Going into the desert without protective gear or supplies (unless your that one guy who had 50 repels and packs of water) (-1 point)

-Trusting in Titania's plan (+1 point)

 

so that gives us a total of.... -9 and I really was trying to find the things the protag actually did that they can take credit for. Clearly they are the best character with that solid 10/10 character development...wait they can't speak or have a personality...so if they are the best...does that mean this game's story and characters are awful?

 

[Angelkitsune]

well Ame actually gave us some little personalities of the MC on Tumblr

• vero a little too confident, well intentioned but borders on cocky
• alice very sweet, also very naive doesnt think about consequences
• kuro strong sense of justice but a little absent minded, gets lost easy
• lucia super energetic and headstrong and impulsive maybe clumsy
• ari is good kind of swag, style and grace but also not the brightest
• decibel prissy snowflake but not in a rude way just floats above everything

 

[Guest Relinquished]

Now i know why i always chose Vero. His mere looks cut it; the description, i mean.

[Wolfox]

here's another thing. having a moral compass that points straight north can be extremely bland and boring. case in point:

[ShadeStrider]

1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

here's another thing. having a moral compass that points straight north can be extremely bland and boring. case in point:

Don't remind me. I hate Corrin. With a passion.

 

 

This Topic was a mistake.

 

 

I can't tell if I made this as a Joke, or if I was being serious. Maybe a bit of both.

[CodeCass]

I can see this for sure. I've honestly really enjoyed my Reborn MC every time. So far I've always chosen Vero simply because I like his looks haha, but also he sort of embodies a look and attitude I always projected myself as when I was a teenager. Those days may be long gone, but I still can't help but chose him. 

 

I can't really say I like him because I'm projecting myself onto him ( I don't really like myself, haha) but I like the idea of his character. Here's this well-intentioned, but cocky young adult who's thrown into this mess following a disastrous arrival in Reborn. Whether or not his goal is to be the Champion, he's able to dust himself off and go along with things as they happen, and seems to generally be trying to help folks and his friends and I find that admirable. I also play him as someone who likes to use less-used Pokémon. He's a bit over-confident, so I seem him as someone who wants to show that he can win with any Pokémon, no matter how "weak" they seem, which works well with Reborn's limited Poke-population! 

 

Maybe there's some projecting there, but who knows. I just know I dig Vero's character. 

 

Plus, as you've said, OP, the man never seems to need sleep! 

[uberle]

There have been moments where the MC talks, we just never see any dialogue.

After all how does anyone figure out their name? 

Does the MC just pull out their trainer card?

 

Also there are moments like when Shelly says "No one's been hurt by reading a diary" and the MC faces the opposite direction for a second

[Angelkitsune]

well i always choose Alice because of aesthetics but i never project myself into any blank character in any game so i always try to play the game with the characters almost non existence personality by looking for some info like tumblr and TV Tropes(Yes reborn also have one) its like playing the game at the same time thinking how i will write the scenario into a fanfiction (which will never exist because of my poor writing skills and i am too much of a pussy to post one and always expect to get lots of hate comments)(lll￢ω￢)

[Alistair]

The MC is bland. That's kind of undeniable. They are supposed to be bland, because they're just here for the player to project themselves blahblah everyone's made that point already.

However, claiming they didn't accomplish much of anything good is... unfair at best.

I'm borrowing Commander's list of story events because it's rather comprehensive as well as a good starting point to play "devil's advocate" (although the MC is far from a devil).

 

Spoiler

-they were a small almost insignificant help at Mossdeep Factory (Julia and Florinia easily could've taken them all down theoretically)

Absolutely true, although the MC is technically a beginner at this point so it's not really fair to blame them for not kicking as much ass as 2 gym leaders. They did what they could, when absolutely no one forced them to be here.

-they stopped the Pulse Tangrowth in Obsidia purely due to ZEL's cockiness

True again, but that doesn't change the fact that MC saved the day where 2 leaders stupidly let themselves get caught. Had they not been here, it would have taken significantly more time to stop the Pulse, with probably more destruction and deaths happening.

-they managed to stop the Pulse Tangrwoth in Jasper and rescue the officers (though the latter is optional so only +1)

Yes.

-Beryl Ward they needed Heather's help who easily could've stomped all three of them

The MC had no way of knowing when Heather was going to show up, or even if she was going to show up at all. They only had her word, and still attempted to face Team Meteor alone, trying to prevent the Pulse from destroying what remained of Beryl. If that's not a commendable action, I don't know what is.

-Pushed Corey to the breaking point commit suicide (-1 point there)

Corey pushed Corey to the breaking point. All the MC did was fighting a group of terrorists, rescuing policemen, and facing Corey in a gym battle. They didn't know Corey at all before these events, didn't know Corey was going to be unmasked in front of Heather, and had little to no way of predicting what Corey would do upon defeat. The MC's indirectly and partly responsible at most.

-Caused major trauma to a gym leader due to the point above

True. Although Corey himself is responsible for Shelly's trauma much more than the MC.

-Pushed Fern to be an even bigger A-hole than before (though it's debatable if the MC is factored into that)

Fern was already an asshole and widely known as such before the MC arrived (Julia, Florinia and Hardy all demonstrate it). The MC did literally nothing to intentionally aggravate Fern either, they merely became the focus of Fern's inferiority complex due to their achievements.

-Almost put Shelly in an Orphanage which is more or less an Asylum for the mentally disturbed children

Because Victoria asked them to. The MC didn't know Sigmund back then, and thanks to Anna's intervention, Shelly wasn't brought there anyway.

-Joined a gang to perform illegal activities (-1 point)

That's impossible to argue against. The MC 100% did, and although it's later necessary to progress the story, there was no excuse for joining back when they first arrived in Lapis.

-Broke and entered an orphanage to kidnap children (-1 point)

The same orphanage that is more or less an asylum for the mentally disturbed children, led by a psychiatrist with VERY questionable methods. Not to mention said children were more than happy to get out, therefore I don't think it was a kidnapping as much as it was a prisonbreak.

-Left the children to not only to be captured, but came up with such a ridiculous plan that required days of effort instead of letting Victoria help rescue the children leading to the death of a leader that possibly could have been avoided by simply not showing up in the first place (-2 points)

Strength was required to save the children. Victoria did not have it, nor the appropriate number of badges to use it. If anything, I blame Kiki's extremely skewed sense of priorities for making the rescue operation so excruciatingly long and convoluted. Cain's and Victoria's as well, to a lesser extent.

-Lets terrorists escape after losing a Pokemon battle (-1 point)

I'm assuming this refers to Azurine Island. I don't see what else the MC could have done. They were alone and with no back-up, nor any real means to arrest the terrorists for that matter. Besides, there were at least 3 meteor grunts that didn't fight. Meteors let the MC escape as much as MC let Meteors escape.

-Saved children hostages...but not really since Charlotte more or less is the one to save them all

MC and Cain did almost all the work there. Charlotte's only notable achievement was getting Shelly to safety. Speaking of which, one cannot help but wonder why Charlotte didn't save everyone by herself even before the MC got to Yureyu, since she wasn't restrained, wasn't as directly threatened as Shelly, and presumably had her team with her.

-Helps Anna get better by giving her Medicine...even though she didn't need it (+1 point out of pity)

MC had no way of knowing for certain that Anna didn't need the medicine. Not to mention they again did all the work when at least 2 way stronger trainers were also available to go get the medicine, and didn't move an inch.

-Kills many endangered animals on route 1 and/or captures them (-1 point, but 0 here since it technically is optional)

Indeed.

-The entirety of Episode 9 was Saphira saving everyone's ass

No. Saphira put some extraordinary effort into it by taking down numerous Meteors, but she failed to neutralize Sirius, their most prominent threat. In the end MC was the only one who was at least partly successful in defending the children in Belrose Manse. Even Laura couldn't. [This point is very debatable one way or the other, since there are several routes in e9]

-I guess I'll give them a point for stopping the teleportation scheme, but that ultimately helped the villains out by letting them keep their lives as Lin would've probably slaughtered them avoiding a certain hostage situation and death down the line...wait we'll give that a neutral 0 points

Again, this is retroactively making the responsibility of future, unpredictable events rest on the MC's shoulders. All they did was put an end to a phenomenon that was causing disturbances, disappearances, and potential casualties in the nearby town. Besides, I highly doubt Lin would have killed all her subordinates had the MC not been there. Or if she would, then she is arguably the worst boss in the history of evil teams.

-Instead of listening to an intelligent man who clearly isn't worried, runs towards a crazed cult guy not only almost losing their lives for being reckless but thanks to that man who was not threatened from the threat or hostage they were saved (-1 point) also for having random butterfingers (-1 point)

The MC had little to no reason to trust Radomus at that point, but they indeed should have at least asked for explanations as to why Radomus wasn't worried at all. Nonetheless, their running after crazed-cult-guy allowed the "good guys" to learn more about what El was really after, which is always good to take. Butterfingers are hard to forgive though.

-For trusting Radomus and/or El (-1 point because those two are sketchy)

Blaming MC for not trusting Radomus above, and blaming them for trusting him now...? In any case, the MC had little to no choice. They were clearly asked to take a side, and unfortunately the "y'all are weirdos, I'm out" option didn't exist.

-Falling for an obvious trap on 7th street (I won't deduct a point here since Bennett wasn't seen as a bad person in their eyes at that point)

Well... yes, the MC is a bit silly sometimes.

-Stopping Bennett from Stalking Luna (+1 point)

That's the MC we know and love.

-Going into an area with knocked out gatekeepers unprepared expecting everything to be okay leaving them trapped in a circus for a long portion of the game (-1 point)

... yes, the MC is very silly sometimes. But there isn't much else they could have done. The only people they could have reasonably asked for back-up were Julia, Florinia, Victoria and Serra, none of whom being particularly better equipped than the MC to deal with whatever Team Meteor is up to at that point. Everyone else is either hiding, nowhere to be found, or busy.

-The Amaria suicide actually wasn't the player's fault but somehow Titania kept a diary that Amaria somehow never found and read for years despite them being lovers

As was said, not the MC's fault.

-The player's inability to figure out they could try climbing over the ice pillar instead of trying to dive in frigid waters (-1 point)

That would normally be a good and logical point, but Anna clearly mentions the absence of means to go over the ice dome just before concluding that diving is the only way. I think it's safe to assume that it's too slippy to be climbed and/or reaches up to the cave's ceiling.

-Also for thinking diving in frigid waters was a good idea (-1 point)

Lack of other options. Nothing can dent the ice, it presumably can't be climbed, no Fly, no helicopter. It was either diving or staying stuck.

-For not suggesting they blow a goddamn hole in the ground to get around the barrier to Labordor City (-1 point)

Good point, although to be fair no one suggested it, not just the MC. Also it's possible the barrier would have just extended to reach the bottom of the pit anyway. A tunnel would have been a better idea, but digging one could have potentially taken a lot of time.

-Traveling alone into Cyberspace against a dangerous terrorist (-1 point)

The computer wouldn't allow more than one person to get in, Samson made it very clear when operating it. A better question would be, why did then-stronger Ciel not go instead of the player?

-Making "friends" with Terra (+1 possible point)

Honestly can't tell if good or bad thing. You don't really make friends with Terra anyway, she just decides if she likes you.

-Letting Titania kill the terrorists (+1 point)

Whether this is a good thing or not is debatable, but the MC didn't really have a choice anyway. Forcing Titania to stand down would have been dangerous for the MC, and these 2 were stuck together in the WTC for better or worse.

-Because everyone trusted and decided to side with Taka, a member of a terrorist group (-1 point)...seriously, y'all are asking to be killed

That's optional.

-When entering Devon Corp and noticing some oddities, deciding to continue on to what was clearly an obvious trap (-1 point)

... yes, the MC is extremely silly sometimes.

-Murdering a terrorist by killing the Pulse Magnezone (+1 point) possibly slowing down their plans

That's the MC we know and love.

-Being the chosen one cliche (-1 point due to bias)

I suppose this refers to Adrienn saying the MC is Champion material. At that point, it's kinda true, isn't it? The MC has an impressive collection of badges they earned mostly through sheer work, and proved themselves against dangerous foes on countless occasions. They're not a chosen one as much as the most impressive person around. Even random NPCs around Neo-Reborn demonstrate high esteem for the MC.

-Your existence apparently helped stop bad stuff (+1 point?)

Not sure what this refers to exactly, but the MC's existence helped stop loads of bad stuff throughout the game.

-Going into the desert without protective gear or supplies (unless your that one guy who had 50 repels and packs of water) (-1 point)

This is assuming the player hasn't refilled their stocks of healing items and repels before going there, which I am sure lots of people did. If not... well, yes, the MC is beyond silly sometimes.

-Trusting in Titania's plan (+1 point)

Good call, MC.

 

Tl;dr

What the MC did wrong:

- being unlucky enough that their actions indirectly trigger tragic events (something they can't really be blamed for),

- potentially joining a street gang when they didn't have to,

- being reckless and naive several times,

- possibly killing members of endangered species,

- butterfingers.

What the MC did right:

- foiling a group of terrorists' plans on numerous occasions (saving lives and homes in the process),

- rescuing police officers,

- rescuing children from ill-intentioned characters several times,

- fetching medicine for Anna (and other tasks the MC handled in spite of stronger trainers being present),

- trusting the right people when necessary (Radomus and Titania),

- protecting a girl from a stalker,

- having a role in discovering the terrorists intentions,

- potentially helping the people of Reborn with menial tasks on numerous occasions,

- and as a bonus: contributing to free Adrienn, which caused a major improvement of Reborn City's overall situation.

I think the good things more than outweigh the bad. As bland as the MC is, they did more for Reborn than anyone else in years, in spite of some questionable choices and actions.

[Angelkitsune]

can someone tell me what does butterfingers mean (ಥ _ ಥ)

[CodeCass]

1 hour ago, Angelkitsune said:

can someone tell me what does butterfingers mean (ಥ _ ಥ)

 

It could mean either "clumsy" or could referring to the candy bar "Butterfinger", not sure which context you mean! I assume the first!

[Angelkitsune]

1 minute ago, CodeCass said:

 

It could mean either "clumsy" or could referring to the candy bar "Butterfinger", not sure which context you mean! I assume the first!

(*^▽^*)b

[Commander]

9 hours ago, Alistair said:

The MC is bland. That's kind of undeniable. They are supposed to be bland, because they're just here for the player to project themselves blahblah everyone's made that point already.

However, claiming they didn't accomplish much of anything good is... unfair at best.

That list was honestly me just being silly to give people a laugh. I tend to exaggerate stuff when I'm not being super serious. Anyways, projecting yourself onto a character and the simplicity of the plot go hand-and-hand. DQ IX is a good example of how to do it pretty well as while it's making you go a certain path, you have a lot of control and customization over your team and party. This made for some hilarious moments like Josdolf, the priest, earning his nickname for defeating a boss after the worst case scenario happened. Immersion happens from a player's experiences with a character with a void they can use their imagination to fill.

 

Now we could be dancing for hours on the topic of whether or not the MC in Reborn is good or not. I harp on Rejuv a lot due to this, but I do not think Reborn is an exception either. I just think the silent protag aspect is really taken away due to not only the character bloat, but because of how the plot is presented as well. Very, very few scenes consist of just the protag and possibly one other character often leaving the protag as nothing more than a third wheel. You have some exceptions like Fern who people talk about A LOT for that reason. That doesn't mean I think Reborn's plot is bad, but I just don't think it has a very good silent protag aspect. Actually, I'd say it's about average, but nothing to rave about.

 

Now to address that elephant in the room: Corrin from FE Fates (the real reason I'm making this post)

 

I'm just gonna answer the question first: would a silent protagonist talking and a talking protagonist becoming silent change the character? It's not a straightforward answer, but a character's personality would not change, but the likableness of the character could. I'm going to give an example of where a talking protag becoming silent would become a good thing. Chris from FE12 is one of the most hated custom avatar characters due to the sheer pandering they give to Marth. Them not talking would only alter the plot a little bit (making them play like Mark from FE7) but the overall story wouldn't change only possibly making for a jarring moment here and there. Though that'd make Marth the only protagonist again so...I'm not sure if that counts.

 

Now I get to talk about Corrin, which is actually more or less Conquest Corrin. And for those wondering, people would still absolutely despise Corrin even if they were a silent protag because they were pissed at their actions and not their personality or character. I'm not going to lie in that I don't see how Corrin acted making them a horrible character. In fact, I think they had potential to being one of the more interesting Fire Emblem lords and maybe even the best. They did something only one other FE Lord really has made: a terrible decision. Ironically, that character is also really hated. Corrin made some really bad decisions, but they either had 0 consequences or recieved praise for them. The game also contradicts itself a lot which left players just pure frustrated at the story. I don't think simply making Corrin not talk would automatically solve all those problems...but more like shove the blame on someone else instead. And believe me, there are were protagonist than Corrin...much worse.

 

I don't say these things to make people necessarily change their mind, but mostly as a "think about it." Some person could easily come in here and say that silent protags are a great thing and bring valid reasons and be right as well. But this is about the best character in Reborn being the MC, which honestly isn't true. While I'd definitely say my faves are Shelly and Julia, I'd have to give that medal to Titania because she has one of the best and most unique battles, is an interesting character, and has some pretty interesting character development and we aren't even done with her yet.

[DemICE]

I have this impression that at least Caz wished he made talking protag for desolation. Especially considering the last scene of the current update

[Monochrome_Complex]

On 5/17/2018 at 11:15 PM, Angelkitsune said:

well Ame actually gave us some little personalities of the MC on Tumblr

• vero a little too confident, well intentioned but borders on cocky
• alice very sweet, also very naive doesnt think about consequences
• kuro strong sense of justice but a little absent minded, gets lost easy
• lucia super energetic and headstrong and impulsive maybe clumsy
• ari is good kind of swag, style and grace but also not the brightest
• decibel prissy snowflake but not in a rude way just floats above everything

 

Aside from ari and Kuro slightly, this is exactly how I kind of imagined them lol. I think it says something about Ame's skills that she was able to convey their personalities through their sprites.

 

Also gave me a thread idea. Well more a redux.