Have the fan-games exceeded the official games?

[Guest]

In your opinion, are the fan-games now better than the official main-series games? Story-wise, graphic-wise, mechanic-wise, etc

 

The fandom has long since exceeded the writing of the official games, iyam ~

[Ghost141]

Definitely. But now i don't wanna blame Nintendo for their actual games, i mean i stopped from XY because i was tired of the low difficulty level, the monotonus storyline etc, but I think this is normal if u are playing pokemon from much time (i personally started from pokemon ruby). I'm saying this because i think yes fan-games are better from original ones, but because they have to satisfy mainly veteran players, so fan-games developers know more or less what they all want, like hard difficulty, uncommon storyline, while Nintendo had to satisfy many different players classes, from beginners to veterans, so it get's harder produce a game able to make all happy. Said this I hope noone missunderstands me, I'm not saying creating a fan-game it's easy, simply i mean it's a bit easier aim for the players's requests

[Celeby]

Obvious that. Now I do nothing but appreciate the games with which you put in trouble, the games hack rom now far outweigh the official games, not only for the beautiful story that create the players and I could say enough of the usual monotonous history of official games , but also because of the difficulty of fan games. Also known as the real difficulty of a game and the player himself who must face this difficulty to overcome certain challenges. Gym Leaders difficult to deal with if in fan games have a real strategy to put you to stress, instead of putting the usual pokémon of a certain type and do what? Having only the moves to coverage, not even to say trained, no, in short, we understood each other.

 

Also for the graphic side, well I'm one that appreciates and continues to appreciate the classic graphics from the 3rd gen (so I speak of Ruby, Sapphire and Smeraldo), I do not mind that BW if we want to be honest, but I find it too confusing sixth on, I remain always fascinated by the classic, and this is my opinion in general.

[Elvenlore]

They definitely have for me. I was only saying yesterday that Reborn is far better than the official series, and some of those games I hold quite dear to my heart. I see the original series as setting the foundation and the fangames as building the most incredible things off of it. And some weird things, but that's to be expected.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Elvenlore

[CrossImpact]

So, I haven't played any fan-game other than Reborn (which is simply due to me valuing a whole lot of other franchises higher).

After having played Gen 1 and 2 as a kid and returning to Gen 5 in muh twenties, once again skipping X/Y to then play OR/AS (living dex yay, thanks to all the events), Pokemon returned quite strongly into a list of things I really enjoyed.
Discovering that there were fangames out there, decided to give Reborn E15 a try since it was way more than some hack, it seemed to have a very interesting setting and the Pokemon themselves being vanilla.
And oh boy, I came for Pokémon and stayed for Reborn, for very obvious reasons.
I was a casual player in the official games, do the main story, maybe catch a lot of different Pokemon.
And Reborn broke that to a good degree (I know there are harder things out there). It incentivized to actually learn some stuff, and if only gathering them passively from what others say about their strategies (or cheese strategies).

Since Reborn kept me captivated for multiple playthroughs, there was no question to also get S/M and staying up to date.
Now, S/M was a surprise going into different directions.
The region itself is wonderful.
The exploration part was basically non-existent, which was horrendous.
Team Skull is one joke of an organization, but at least they are quite funny. Kind of a better Team Rocket tbh. Orgs in other games were a tad more serious.
Mimikyu was very very very very well executed, props.
The difficulty was a bit higher than it had become before, which was good, but also artificial due to it simply being achieved by a steep E4+champ level curve.

The drama around Lusamine and her drifting off into obsession (and when Lillie started to become beautiful ~), I found all that much much better than what the main series usually has to offer.
Personal problems of characters between each other were a strong point there.
Guess what game is also really f-ing good at that. For Reborn, that outstanding quality can be attributed to being based on what actually happened in people's lives.

The anime doesn't really count for the game, and I hadn't watched any of that since the beginning of 5th gen (only up to Johto before that). While it is plagued with a lot of episodes that just don't feel relevant at all as well, however when it does go serious or wants to show a message and confer emotions, it does that well.


With all the creative freedom the fangames can take in terms of mechanics, character and world setting, all the while not having to watch out for that age 6 rating and being able to rely on a good amount of people who know their stuff, it's not so surprising they become better overall games.
Usually they are created by people who are eager to test themselves and advance their horizon in development skills as well, that means quite some sweat and lifeblood goes into them too.
Trying to compare any official game with Reborn will fall short on almost every aspect, with the exceptions being the graphics (which is subjective, for me growing up together with the development of computer games, that's not really a negative, especially since so much work was put into the overworld, the animations and a part of the sprites) and the dearly needed higher entry-skill.
While I've seen voices that still call it somewhat easy, I have the feeling that it could under no circumstance be advisable to make Reborn the very first Pokemon game you play.

Fangames in general are (probably) better, yet I think it's a reasonable give and take and they mutually keep people interested in the franchise.

[Seal]

In some ways they did but you've gotta respect the main-series games.

 

The Pokemon and character designs, the basics of the game, the battle mechanics, even the very idea comes from the original.

 

But all Pokemon games have their own ups and downs, even the so called 'bad' ones.

 

Come the think of it we wouldn't even be here discussing this if not for a certain fan-game, the fact that someones dedication and love for the franchise brought us here together is amazing and something I would love to see develop in the future.

 

Overall I think fan-games and main-series games complement each other and co-exist just fine.

[JoStarNight]

When it comes to story, then yes, Pokemon fan games such as Pokemon Desolation, Pokemon Legends of the Arena, Pokemon Postcriptum Fated Epistle and Pokemon Reborn (despite it being considered by many to be "edgy") have far better stories overall than the core series; the only core series game with a competent story enough that can be viewed as good is Pokemon Black and White.

 

As for gameplay, Pokemon Reborn is one of the few fan games that have taken full advantage of the Pokemon battling formula and pushed it to its limits.

 

Overall, Pokemon fan games are more suited for veteran players of the franchise when it comes to story and gameplay since they push the Pokemon formula much further than the core series. Of course, I'm not discrediting the core series since they still have charm to them; buying a new Pokemon game and traveling around to catch and train new Pokemon in a new innovative region doesn't get old; there are also fan games out there that are far from good. If the core series actually took advantage of its battling formula, Pokemon Reborn wouldn't exist. In all, I guess both the core series and fan games have this love-hate relationship that co-exist side by side; the core series giving out new mechanics for the battling formula and new story ideas with the fan games making better use of them.

Edited May 30, 2018 by JoStarNight

[Damien321]

Of course, they have better story, graphics are better than the originals, the characters have actual PERSONALITY that can be affected by choices, etc.

[Zarc]

I'm too lazy to put an entire paragraph , so i will just say : yes , definitely. In my opinion of course. More action , more challenges , better stories by far. 

 

But i will say that thoses fan games ( such as reborn , reju , desolation etc ) are for people like us , it mean for our age. Common games right now are more and more for a young public , which can easily bore us. So fan games are very nice for us , cause this is pokemon we love to see ( or not ) : a mature one , or if you prefer , something we can affirm that  : Pokemon is not only for kids !  

[Ojama Yellow]

no.

no.

no.

 

the easiest part to address is graphics-wise. yeah, maybe fangames exceeded the graphics of games like frlg, rse or dppt, but those games were from roughly ten years or more ago. the games we are currently at, ultra sun and ultra moon, are bazillions of times better in graphics than our fangames. battling animations in games like reborn are alright, but when you look at the animations in other games, like the recently brought out phoenix rising, theyre absolutely awful, without even requiring a comparison.

 

mechanic-wise, fangames are absolutely garbage compared to core series. in the best of cases, such as reborn, you have a whole bunch of bugs, but theyre hidden well enough so players only come across like five to ten of them during their entire playtime. mind, this is the top of the top. in the worst of cases? events dont work as intended or outright dont work, some sprites are broken, scripts are broken, abilities are broken... again, this is something that isnt as omnipresent in a game like reborn (though I think just about everyone that has posted in here has encountered multiple bugs), but in games like phoenix rising? horrid.

 

story-wise, games like reborn are okay, which is about on par with core series. the core remains largely the same, though- main character sets out to defeat team because evil. only in games like reborn and rejuv we are forced to take a darker road to do so. you got some fangames that take a different road in that fashion (legends of the arena, most notably), but most fangames stay true to the core storyline created by the official games. I wouldnt say that reborn gives more screentime to major characters than core series does, as once more, alola gave some time in the spotlight to just about any major character in the entire game. of course, some major characters in reborn are given much more screentime, but that is also partly because the playtime is longer.

 

content-wise, fangames are able to exceed the core series in main game. the main game of core series is rather short, whereas fangames often have a really long main storyline. in postgame, both create postgame plot with smaller quests that the main character can do. however, gamefreak goes that extra way to create something every generation that can be replayed. the best example of this is the battle frontier, but other places like the battle tree, battle chateau, battle subway, pokemon world tournament etc. are the things that keep the game playable even after having completed it. of course I cant compare fangames like reborn to core series in this aspect, as we are still far from postgame.

 

in difficulty there is no question, fangames easily outmatch core series.

 

overall, the difference between fangames and real games is still very much visible. fangames are a fun way to pass time, theyre well developed for being non-official games (usually), but they cannot hold a candle to the experience of a complete, mostly bug-free game. theyre both good genres in their own right, but if I were to have to spend money on one of them, core series would be the easy pick.

[Wolfox]

Nins hit the nail on the head there, though instead of Phoenix Rising I would have useInsurgence as an example in some cases, as PR is still really early in beta and is being worked on with patches harder than Insurgence ever had

[Guest Relinquished]

I enjoyed Reborn's story the most. After it, i feel main games are a totally insignificant and forgettable experience, or something.

 

Rejuvenation is also volumes more enjoyable, than canon titles. And both of them seem to be very fitting, as an overall story and fantasy setting, with pokemon involved.

 

Even Uranium and Insurgence can be easily compared against main series! For me, it's also the features offered, as well. I always needed the speed up button (available only in emulation, before), the visible IV/EV charts and most importantly; the "all pokemon catchable" in one, the very same version! Plus the satisfying higher difficulty and the real challenge, that fangames put on the table.

 

Honestly, i could NEVER again return to play normal games of the franchise. After discovering fangames, i find those severely lackluster, at best.

[FairFamily]

I would say yes and no. If you want to see pkmn pushed to its extremes than fangames are your thing. This appeals to veteran players which are a bit bored with the easy, same story core games.

 

However almost any fan game is not a good entry point for players into the series. The lower difficulty, simple railroaded hero story might appeal to players who aren't familiar pokemon.

 

That being said the core games do some things better than fan games. Lore, world building and pkmn design. We all know the shtick of drifloon, electrode, arceus, ... . That kind of world building I see seldenly challenged by fangames.

 

Also speaking about bugs, I feel this kinda difficult to judge because pkmn games dictate whether something is a bug while the players are just reverse engineering. For all we know scald was meant to have a 10% to burn or gen 5's weather wasn't meant to be permanent.  We just don't know and accept them. Bugs just become features. Also the buggiest pokemon games are still the gen 1 games.

[Commander]

I might reread and respond to some other people afterwards, but here's my unfiltered opinion:

 

Short Version: You'd have to be kind of out of your mind to think fan-games are BETTER than the main core series.

 

Here's the long answer:

 

So let's just start off where fan-games are better than the main games. Many fan games use the Gen III styled graphics which are games that came out almost 18 years ago. You could say 15 or something for Fire Red. People have been improving on a system that came out 15 years ago and implementing more and more. Even at this point in time, B2W2 still dominates over any of the fan games created. They brought ideas and concepts like challenge mode and some really fun side content to explore. But we can't compare a system which used an older system since obviously it should be superior, but we have to look at modern times.

 

Pokemon is a game designed for children and male gamers in mind. They are focused mostly on profits as most companies should, but the creators are passionate towards innovation. While the brand name sells a few million, it's the flashiness and graphics as well as the ease of into the game on top of a huge community that people keep coming back into the games. Every gen makes the games look more and more pleasing to the eye and more recently they games are more designed on the hype and metagame. More features are added for online play since the games are designed to have people communicate with one another. With the evolution of technology, people have been able to communicate about Pokemon so much easier than before and the series just keeps adding more to that idea.

 

People like Bibs I saw nailed the description so I won't dwell too long, but I do want to talk about story. We have two entirely different arguments going on but Pokemon actually does a better job at presenting story than you might think. Look at USUM going an extra mile to flesh out characters like Lusamine even further. There's better dynamic and characters are just so memorable compared to Gen I. Sure it's a simple generic plot about becoming the best, but we have a good time getting there and it delivers it pretty well since it does feel like an adventure. There are linearity issues, but most Pokemon games and even fan-games have that issue.

 

Do fan-games have some things they do better than the current Pokemon games? Probably, but it's so tiny that you can't say a fan is ultimately better than a team of professional developers. They are still making huge profits from the series and it hasn't really gone down much which each gen despite the huge crankout of games (like CoD or Guitar Hero). That there should really speak loud. But why on earth would people even question this fact?

 

Fan-games don't design their games like GF does only really using Pokemon as a base gameplay mechanic. Sure some keep it pretty close to the original experience or even some hacks that are just remakes, but let's focus on the popular Fan-games such as Reborn. Many of these games designed full-on rpg experiences that last for 20, 40, or even 60 hours and bring about new and fresh things. Difficulty is also even higher. So many of these games get a lot of love and praise and even PR gets a lot of praise for its graphics compared to most fan-games. Why do people like "inferior" games? It's because they suit the people's tastes more.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who hasn't exactly gotten all that excited about Gen VI and VII to the point I really can't get into or enjoy them. There could be a load of reasons like a change in tastes. It might just be a good idea to back away from Pokemon and begin adventuring to find games that better suit your taste. Even a few hundred fans is just pennies in the eyes of Pokemon.

 

I'm not saying to not continue or support fan-games though (or even the main series if you still like it). If you like something from them, keep playing and supporting them. Let's just say Reborn has like 200k people who play the game (probably a heavy exaggeration). 200k is a huge game changer for smaller companies and can even push for more games in a certain series to get another sequel or more localization. You'd be surprised how many "inferior" games may end up being the best experiences you've ever had.

[Starry Knight]

It's about 50/50 for me while there are games like reborn that are amazing there are also a lot of games that are bad particularly with lag. Pokemon franchise attempts to please all ages and genders, it brings unique machanices to the playing field I loved the SOS battling, in X/Y I liked using field moves and getting stuff for it and hoard battles, they also bring beautiful graphics most fangames can't touch however fangames come out for the niches like veterans with hard difficulty or pokegirls as such an argument can be made they are better however most relay on older graphics, for me personally I enjoy both and look at them fairly equally as they both have pros and cons.

[Maqqy]

Yes for core, long time, somewhat competitive and expert Pokemon players. For new players and beginners, it's a no. At least, not yet. Phoenix Rising might have the potential to change that if it reaches 100% completion.

[CrossImpact]

@Commander

so what exactly makes people be "kind of out of their mind" in saying they think fangames are better?

I'm not sure what to take from your points to reach that conclusion tbh.

1) graphics
- fangame graphic is hugely outdated, but people at least made the effort to improve the base
- official games keep improving on graphical presentation and are really appealing in that sense

do old graphics make for an inferior game? that is highly subjective.
but I think you were also referring to the possibilities opened up by that newer technology, and more possibilities = usually superior, which is a good point and can't really be denied.

so let's take Reborn and put it into modern Pokemon graphics.
that is cool and one would definitely enjoy the improved presentation and how puzzles, hidden stuff and more could be handled differently, 
at the same time games that get uh, "enhanced" this way, would also lose some of their old charm. but probably that's not a thing quite everyone appreciates the same way, just like the other way round.

there's actually that pretty well known and highly regarded guy Hideo Kojima (Metal Gear Solid, of course), 
who's always been adamant about not remaking his old games because they also resemble the time they were made in.

now, fangames with 3rd and 4th gen graphics (there's nothing out there that uses anything more modern, right? granted, I would not have heard of it anyway x) ) and limitations deduced from that would not quite fall under this, since they obviously came out wayyyyyyyy later to resemble it themselves.

yet, if you use the premise that Pokemon fangames can't even be made using higher up technology (caveat: I'm not familiar with what is out there) given the limitations in
- available software to do so
- properly trained and qualified indie staff to make use of that software if it would exist to then create a full game

... then you could say fangames are at the best they can be at the given time and therefore resemble it for fan games.

but maybe fan games can't even follow that view simply due to the nature of being what they are.
if I look at indie games in general, there's a wild mix of ranging from what looks like stone age (...hey there Minecraft) over hand-drawn 2d (like Ori) to full-blown 3d, and either format is fully enjoyable to people who like it respectively.


2) online communication and interaction

- fangames do not or barely make use of it
- official games keep improving on it and implementing new possibilities

in the long run, staff qualification probably plays a role in this again, is what I'd presume. anyway -

if singleplayer or any form of multiplayer/interaction are "superior" is another subjective point in general, but for Pokemon in specific, this franchise has always aimed and improved at bringing people together and promote exchange, so you could say it is quite a defining principle.

under that premise, fangames surely lag behind. I'm amazed Reborn got a working trade, wondertrade and battle system. you could say those are the basic online interaction functions in Pokemon, and it's great they are covered.

now, personally I couldn't care less about all the online stuff 7th gen did in addition to that. the plaza thing made for quite an explosion in online functions I feel?
(due to me missing most games after gen 2, I'm not very familiar with the advancement of those over time, was super hyped about GTS in gen 5+ tho) 
to me, most of that is a pretty useless time sink - lots of other people find it fun and entertaining to do the things and cash in the rewards though!

I'm not sure if it would hurt the overall game quality to keep that a lower priority, but like above, I think it suits Pokemon super well.
(now if Alola also had some real dungeons to explore in addition to that, or anything else that mentally challenges the player at least a little bit....)


3) story

let's maybe summarize from my viewpoint.
1st + 2nd gen feel very much the same to me in that regard ; the focus is really put on the adventure feeling, Team Rocket's shenanigans do not really make for what you could call a story. a lil' lil' bit.
3rd and 4th gen I did not play originally
5th gen still felt like having the same focus. I felt pretty "at home" in Unova.
6th gen I did not play X/Y, but finally got my hands on Hoenn. personal investment seems to have gone up, it contains some cute scenes with the protagonists. the criminal teams are. well.
I mean, I think it works rather well 'cause those legendaries, man. pretty epic. but it's like, "we want more land!!" vs "we want more water!!!". that's pretty meaningless imo.
7th gen I have played S/M, not US/UM. for the most part, not much was going on. Team Skull never felt like they had a real purpose, but it was fun. I super enjoyed it once the story took off for what unfortunately was only a small part of the game. I want to see personal conflicts, motivations and inner thoughts and conclusions on how to act of characters that then shape the story.
S/M still didn't have much of that, but what it had felt the best of any main series game.

so now we come back to Reborn and there is exactly that all over the place. some of it is yet to be told.
I'm sure there'd be better formats than Pokemon to present these things. but man, if you are into putting yourself into the protagonist's shoes (...unfortunately it's a blank mute character, which is no difference from the official games tho), if you are into a plot with some twists and revelations....
...then the main series has a loooong way to go, because that is exactly what it is lacking so far.

thing is, that probably will never be a focus due to the nature of the franchise, and that makes these games considerably more boring than the combination of that with the adventure framework.
going from gym to gym or trial to trial for the sake of it (or to unlock an HM to cut a tree or move a rock...) is just super one-dimensional.
it's not bad or badly executed in its own right, but it's the way down one long spaghetti without sauce.

--

did I miss any important point?
with all that being said, I think your definition of "inferior/superior" is rather very technical, am I getting that right?
story and characters do play some sort of part for you, but it's not what you'd put your focus on to judge the overall quality.

so idk, I don't see anything out of one's mind here.

[Commander]

@CrossImpact So I guess the first thing to straight up say is that people are inserting their opinions in to a subject in which they don't really know how to answer. I prefer playing fan-games over the core series myself, but they definitely aren't better. Now I have to pretty much "shit talk" fan-games to explain it which I didn't want to. Let me just first clear up the story which is a very subjective term as you don't compare Stephen King to Shakespear or JK Rowling to R. L. Stein. I mean you can, but that's kind of silly.

 

The main gamer market does not care about the story. They care most about connectivity and online gaming. If you look at the top best selling single player games vs the top selling online gaming games (or whatever the proper term is called) there's quite a large gap. I know it's at least a couple million. A lot of changes for Post Gen V were done purely due to this as it cuts back resources where it doesn't matter and puts them into what they believe does. I absolutely hate the decisions made. Hate them. But it does overall improve Pokemon as a whole to the ideas that they are aiming for. They focus more on a visual experience and they really deliver on that front as it's a beautiful and enjoyable experience which ties into the story. The story is more keen on showing off the visuals and what they can do over depth. Pokemon never focused on depth and simplicity works so well for them. Depth in a Pokemon game probably would not go over too well, but we have seen small cues that they are trying stuff such as Lusamine's husband clipscene in the USUM postgame. And characters actually have storylines.

 

What about fan-games? I think people like to forget that Full Moon and Zeta exists and there's only a small handful of true fan-games. Welcome to the world of fanfiction where there is really bad stuff and sometimes it's so bad it's good. I haven't played LotA so I won't judge it, but even Reborn doesn't really stand much ground in modern day Pokemon in terms of story. Ultimately, it's still using a system where people are usually just standing and speaking lines. Reborn goes WAY BEYOND what is expected from a fan-game and does show more character and a deeper plot, but the reception of the game has all kinds of variations. Titania, Lin, Terra, the difficulty, unfair game mechanics, bloated cast, plot points that aren't touched again for over half the game, and the list goes on. Do I even have to go into Rejuv other than mentioning Melia Sue? I don't want to dive too deeply and I absolutely enjoyed Reborn, but I could trash that game's storyline as it's very messy especially in the latter half. I'll just end it in saying complexity =/= superiority.

 

Remember that we're talking about this:

 

From a company that makes millions of dollars for each release

 

Vs this:

 

 

I'm not arguing which games are more enjoyable, but having the rationality of knowing who does it better. If Game Freak was aiming and designing towards a heavy single player focus for teens and young adults, they'd blow anything fan-games presented out of the water. That's not who they are aiming for though. It's just a casual designed series with a lot more emphasis on the metagame compared to the older days.

 

How about we change the idea around? What if Game Freak presented something that looked exactly like Reborn? Would you be willing to spend $50 on it? Is a game that looks like that worth $50 to you? How many of you guys have either SM or USUM? If you look at it as a price of value, of course fan-games are going to be superior since there is no price to them. That's not what the discussion is. We're saying that fan-games are so good that they are worth more value than the official games so you'd be willing to spend $50 or maybe even $60 on them. If that sound ridiculous to you, you've proven my point. You'd be out of your mind if you think Fan-games are better than the core series.

[DemICE]

Good and bad doesn't matter for me.  Different players have different needs, and are satisfied by different things. 

Are fangames better for me than official games?  Definitely. I care little about half the content official games add for multiplayer and other purposes, and i quickly lose interest to something as easy and childish as ORAS. 

Are fangames better for my little cousin too? Most probably not.  He wants his pikachu saying pika pika on him and watching his Z-moves activate after a cool animation and nail those pushover bosses. He would also not think too deeply about the story itself.  But he would go  "woow" over the legendary-related cutscenes.  And surely he would care more about using the multiplayer features too.

From where does GF make more money?  A bunch of  20-30-year old nostalgia driven nerds like me, or millions of "little cousin"s?  So,  much to my dismay, they have done the right choice in their priorities.

 

 

And even the comparison aside, almost all fangames have not yet exceeded my expectations.  There are so many possible ideas,  so many different directions they could have taken, but no, they use the safe and sucessful   get starter-win badges-fight evil team-become champion    trope.   So disappointing, really.   I have high hopes for games like  Apex, in that regard, and i even enjoyed  Ruby Destiny Rescue Rangers despite its many issues.

 

Also one last edit: When i first played pokemon blue like 20 years ago, i don't remember caring about the difficulty, the story, or anything of the short. I only had two goals:  Catch 'em all,  and train the mons i liked to level 100 to battle with my friends.  I believe this is what the new pokemon players still want to this day.

[CrossImpact]

@Commander

looks like I got what your points/premises were correctly.
context of target audience matters a lot.

of course their presentation would be much better regardless of what they do, since GF or any other well-known studio has an enormous staff-skill and software foundation.
but that's like a logical cycle anyway.

now, games even of great franchises can still flop (ME Andromeda, which was kinda outsourced iirc) or not fit into their own series (MGS V, cries about it - now that you talked about accessibility of online features is a strong point for sales, I think that's a thing it tried, but went 274° of bending itself and broke a lot of bones)

Pokémon has not done that and I agree it works well for what they intend to do.

anyway,
thanks for putting in the time to explain further!

[111]

YES!!!

 

Reborn Is Really The Only Fangame I've Played That Is Good (The Other Is Phoenix Rising...) And I Would Pick It Over A Main Series Game Any Day. I Have A Review On Reborn, So That's Why This Post Isn't That Detailed.

[Arys]

I think we should rate fangames and official games differently. But I really should give upper hands to original one because without them, pokedex will only have 100+ entry. Graphic wise they're definitely better (though I would love to have speed alt like in fan games). Gameplay wise, they're more casual so everyone can enjoy it but you can go to competitive if you want.

 

But fangames doesn't lose in creativity and stories they have. Such as in Reborn, I really like their fields and level cap system. But Reborn sometimes is too hardcore for me. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy it though.

[Dedenne1]

I too think that the two need to definitely stay within their own worlds, as each game focused more on a different aspect around the core idea behind the games. However, I think that I have enjoyed fangames far more in recently years.

 

I think I'm more interested in fangames for their more unique plot. It's not the standard idea usually and can be darker without being edgier for lack of a better term hehe. They are also more challenging at times and less "hand-holdy" compared to the core games.

[Candy]

I think fangames have a narrower target audience (which was mentioned earlier) and more variety in what they are allowed to do in story compared to the official games which have to keep youngsters in mind. I feel official games are like elementary-middle school, and once you graduate you can fully enjoy the rigor of fangames.

Graphics-wise though, the narrative is reversed. GF can employ the best graphic designers, and use expensive software to create their games. Meanwhile fangames have to use the older gen graphics and some mechanics because that's what Essentials uses. Moreover the cleaner and newer the graphics, the more risky it is since Nintendo can take it down.

So yah I've been treating fangames and official games as having different purposes. Both are enjoyable in their own way.

[Commander]

Before I say anything there's nothing going on in the sub-forum right...yep we're good. So if you're gonna do my job, at least try to do it right. And so we begin:

 

On 6/3/2018 at 2:28 PM, Sirius said:

Define edgy  I've never really understood it, to me it just sounds like a word trying to insult what other people enjoy/someone's hard work. 

Realism =/= dark and gritty

Edgy =/= realism

 

First, you can't really expect everyone to be crazy like me and watch a 30 minute video and digest and even understand it. While I'll admit it is relevant, it focused on the character aspect of things (which is a trait you see in novelists and sometimes journalists), but you're talking about the definition of a word. We're not talking the proper definition but more of the cultural definition and it has to do with millennials. This is one of my favorite videos to show my views on the subject:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Since I know millenials like to exaggerate stuff and use words to sound smart...making an odd culture, I'll have to refer my only reference to the younger gen Urban Dictionary. So going by my definition from my resource, it usually is used as a term for calling out something that viewers view as a character being too try hard to be cool. Basically, it is a term used for when people dislike a character who fits the "cool" or "bad ass" character mold. It just means that the character doesn't really fit the tastes and they dislike them. I know it's been used to describe unanimated objects and themes and stuff to the point breaking it down would take a while but it's still just an exaggerate way to show dislike. I am going to use this definition when explaining my thoughts.

 

Realism =/= dark and gritty. That is...how should I put it...false? I don't really follow your logic here. While dark and mature themes don't directly link to realism, the two go hand and hand and often share relations to one another. I think the best idea is a wolf wearing sheep's skin. Imagine a city where no crime exists. Sounds like an ideal place to live. It's actually a place ruled by fear and tyranny. Imagine not willing to pay a bill which you were overcharged being a life sentence. Darkness isn't just a color scheme. The term "dark" is often used for comparison to other media and works. So I can't deny what you're saying, but I can't exactly say you're right either.

 

Edgy =/= Realism. So using the rule that Realism can be the above that'd mean Edgy =/= Dark and Gritty. Often times, this can be a true statement so we have a problem. How can a derogatory word represent realistic elements? Yes, that was a trick question. Not every characteristic of a character should be likable. In fact it has turned characters people sometimes really hate into their favorite. That's about the likableness of a character which realism is just one slice of it. It's a hard to explain idea that edgy characters can be realistic but we aren't arguing if we like them or not which is what the word you used and the meaning differs from what idea you are trying to represent. I gotta refute this again simply because it can be either though.

 

The only substance behind these claims aren't even your own so I don't really even know what you're trying to argue or state here. Words alone are meaningless things. It's the substance behind them that truly give them a meaning. Now, let's be on our merry way...hold on a minute...

 

On 6/3/2018 at 2:28 PM, Sirius said:

Similar question: define artificial difficulty.

I like to draw comparisons to Dark Souls when criticising games bc dark souls is the best game ever but artificial difficulty and edgy are not words used to describe dark souls, and I see Reborn having a lot of similarities to dark souls (although that's probably just me liking dark fantasy)

Let's make a great comparison of how artificial difficulty works by having a comparison of two entirely different genres to prove one does it better. What? Artificial difficulty often is around factors outside of battles itself and can mean a lot of things such as no saving unless you're not in a dungeon, random enemies with OHKO moves forcing players to lose progress, and using methods to for players to play certain ways. I generally prefer using the word inconveniences since it's so much easier to understand than the fancy term. Final Fantasy 3 is a good example to refer to but there are plenty. Reborn does have a couple situations where this could be argued but that's a debate for another day.

 

I would describe Dark Souls as edgy as to me the term closely resembles the style of Gothic literature which I'd consider Dark Souls styled deeply in that manner. So clearly I am wrong and you're right. Wait, I thought this was a talk on diffi...why am I bothering? The only thing the two games have in common is that I'd never want to live in either place.

 

On 6/3/2018 at 2:28 PM, Sirius said:

A common theme I'm getting from this is I feel like there's a lot of room for evolution development in the fangame genre still, in that fan games are divergent enough to be considered separately to GF. Strong pros and cons in both.

 

I'll link the other thread on the importance of graphical fidelity since its pretty relevant to this topic: 

Shameless advertisement is shameless. Totally haven't done that with a certain run...nope! Never.

 

So basically from the nonexistent comparison to the games and fan-games you did, you came up with a conclusion that the official games are aimed for a casual audience not dwelling into depth while the other is aimed at young adults and teens to better fit the long time fans of the series mostly built out of passion. Congratulations, you discovered why fan-fiction was created in the first place. Personally, I think it is the opposite problem. I think Gamefreak should be more open to experimentation instead of trying to play it safe like they have been rather recently. They are using their resources wisely, but have taken fewer and fewer risks after Gen V focusing more on a visual stance which actually a lot of people have kind of been demanding since Pokemon was getting outdated. I mean Pokemon Let's Go kind of made me said "Finally something different and at least somewhat interesting."

 

2019 is probably going to be the year we see the decline in fan-games. It's going to be the fans that drive this reaction. No other community has been blessed with the fan creations like the Pokemon community and if fans forget that, they'll set their expectations too high. We have a lot more tools to work with and much more people with the knowledge and skill to accomplish more things but the games fans want to have are both current gen and long which take years to make. If these "improvements" are made we could be adding an additional 2 years onto projects. I'm not saying it's the worst fandom, but I'd argue it's one of the most demanding. Go back to 2016 and find all the comments kind of demanding Ame to include Gen VII when the games haven't even come out yet. We have to add on top the outdated tech fan-game creators have to use and it isn't getting any younger. I'm already experiencing issues on my new computer likely relating to that. It could be fine for another 20 years, but it's hard to speculate what'll happen in the future.

 

So instead of arguing that fan-games need to improve upon what's already implemented, I think we need to go the opposite way an explore new possibilities. There's many elements that barely have been touched or merely scratched the surface. Just to give you and understanding of what I'm talking about: have you ever considered designing a fan-game with only a single map. If you say that it's impossible, then you are thinking about it wrong. What would you have to do to make that map work?