Originality And Usage

[The Fush]

I meant to post this some time ago, but hell, I'll do it now.

In the past, I've seen some arguments (and not just on Reborn) about how "this team is shit because it doesn't use X, it uses a worser thing, Y".

Basically, it's like you're expected to use the same moves and pokemon every time you build a new team. If you're using something from LU or UU in the OU tier, it's like you're going through an army of flamers and biased criticizers.

Well, there's a line between using something that will just not work in the higher tier, and using something from a lower tier effectively in said higher tier. I want to talk about being original when creating a team, and knowing the limits and being effective using uncommon pokemon in tiers such as OU, but still knowing when your option is silly and a bad idea. I'll be talking about how you can be unique and creative in both your pokemon you're using and their movesets.

Keep in mind that I'm not a sort of professional PO player. I'm experienced at team building, but my general teams are subpar at best and I'm one of the rather mediocre trainers on the server. This are just opinions I have gathered through what I have seen since I have joined PO. However, I do not like to disregard what I say, and I still think I have a valid argument.

So say you're in the teambuilder, and you want to use say, a very much liked pokemon of yours as opposed to something commonly used.

For example, Gyarados could be a good Dragon Dancer for you to use on your team:

Gyarados (M) @ Life Orb

Trait: Moxie

EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Dragon Dance

- Waterfall

- Earthquake

- Outrage

Base Stats:

HP: 95

Attack: 125

Defense: 79

Special Attack: 60

Special Defense: 100

Speed: 81

Seems like it would be a good member for your team. But what if you wanted to use something different?

Well, you'd unfortunately have to adjust your team, and not run something similar. Here's what I mean:

Crawdaunt (M) @ Life Orb

Trait: Adaptability

EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Dragon Dance

- Waterfall

- Superpower

- Night Slash

Base Stats:

HP: 63

Attack: 120

Defense: 85

Special Attack: 90

Special Defense: 55

Speed: 55

You can see the problems.

Crawdaunt isn't as bulky, is much slower and has slightly less attack power. It is a DECENT idea and still usable in OU? Just about. But if you want to use something like that on your team, it has to be a good match for the team.

In Crawdaunt's case, because of it's frailty and slow speed, you might want to use it on a trick room team instead.

(Optional Choice Of No Speed IVs)

Crawdaunt (M) @ Life Orb

Trait: Adaptability

EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk

Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Hone Claws/Swords Dance

- Crabhammer/Watefall

- Superpower

- Night Slash

This is more suitable for using in OU.

Trick Room will help Crawdaunt's molasses speed and allow it to become almost as deadly as Gyarados in it's own right. It may not have the same variability, but it has a +2 attack booster or a +1 attack +1 accuracy booster to overcome it's over problems and become a nightmare.

See? It's possible to use something like Crawdaunt in OU. You just need to know what you're doing, or your end will be inevitable.

Team building is one of the biggest things to master in PO. If you want to use more original teams, you need to know exactly what you're trying to build and accomplish.

Because of this, there are bad examples of people trying to be original. Here's one:

Say you really like a pokémon like Emolga, and want to use it over Jolteon in OU as a late game sweeper. This is a bad idea. Let me explain:

Jolteon (M) @ Life Orb

Trait: Volt Absorb

EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

- Volt Switch

- Shadow Ball

- Signal Beam

- Hidden Power [Fire]

Base Stats:

HP: 65

Attack: 65

Defense: 60

Special Attack: 110

Special Defense: 95

Speed: 130

Jolteon is an excellent choice, being extremely fast and potent in special force aswell. It's a perfectly suitable option for your team,

and can finish up the enemy team late game efficiently, being fast enough to hit before it's enemies.

Emolga, on the other hand:

Emolga (M) @ Life Orb

Trait: Motor Drive

EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

- Electro Ball

- Signal Beam

- Air Slash

- Volt Switch

Base Stats:

HP: 55

Attack: 75

Defense: 60

Special Attack: 75

Special Defense: 60

Speed: 103

This is one of Emolga's best sets, but it is outclassed by Jolteon in almost every way; Emolga only has a slightly more varied movepool and the use of Motor Drive, and even then it is far frailer and is far more liable to die than Jolteon ever is. In overall, while it still might help you occasionally in OU, it is completely outclassed.

Can it work in say, LU or UU? Yes. It can work good there. But not here. When trying to add variety or uniqueness into your team, you need to know what your doing, what your team is based on and how this member will help.

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is this; extremely common pokemon are common because of how well they work in their tier, and that's why most people use them. If you want to use something different and maybe slightly weaker, go for it, BUT... know what you're doing. There are times where what you're trying to do is stupid. If you want to pull this off, you need to know how.

Also, there's no need to get angry at some for say, using Crawdaunt or Lilligant in OU; they can work there, and it has been proven. No need to get all riled up just because your Gyarados or Virizion or Thundurus work better than they do. If they can pull it off, then there is essentially no need to complain about what you're doing.

Since the earlier good example was of an entirely offensively based pokémon, I'l choose a bruiser category this time:

Conkeldurr (M) @ Flame Orb

Trait: Guts

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

- Drain Punch

- Earthquake

- Fire Punch

- Payback

Base Stats:

HP: 105

Attack: 140

Defense: 95

Special Attack: 55

Special Defense: 65

Speed: 45

Conkeldurr is one of the biggest powerhouses in OU. It's attack stat is enormous. Is it slow? Yes. However, there are many sets you can run with it, and it has great defenses aswell.

But maybe there's a bruiser from a lower tier that you might like more. For example:

Throh (M) @ Flame Orb

Trait: Guts

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

- Stone Edge

- Superpower

- ThunderPunch

- Payback

Base Stats

HP: 120

Attack: 100

Defense: 85

Special Attack: 30

Special Defense: 85

Speed: 45

So say you like Throh, and you want to use it over Conkeldurr. Looking from this viewpoint, it seems Conkeldurr has more options and generally serves you better, which is mostly true. But that doesn't mean Throh is a bad choice: It has higher HP to compensate for lower attack, and it's defenses are more well rounded, and it even has the same speed. It also can run both similar and different sets. They can both run Guts, and while Conkeldurr has things like Iron Fist sets that are also very powerful, Throh can phaze with Circle Throw, Bulk Up like Conky, and generally has it's own ups over Conkeldurr, with a moveset almost as varied. Therefore, it's acceptable to use Throh in higher tiers, even though you might have a hard time if you don't know what you're doing, and might do the job better in lower tiers.

So don't worry overly if you've decided to use something uncommon. The point of my post is to open up to a bit to the options out there, especially now that Clear Skies and Monotypes are in play, and feel free to party out. After all, you are supposed to have fun in a game, and using the same thing all the time can ruin that experience.

[Voctrode]

butbut

MY META

[Summer]

B-but lord smogon said otherwise ;-;

[The Fush]

...Is my opinion even being taken seriously here?

Anyway, Smogon doesn't dictate much, here, considering that this is Reborn.

[Voctrode]

I am, considering this is like one of the more thought out topics here, though honestly those reactions are what I'd expect your target audience to say.

There's nothing really I can add to this though other than the fact that I agree completely.

[Zen]

As they said, the target audience for your post would probably miss the whole point - oh look, Evasion? - despite the thought you put into it.

And there's where you'd probably see the difference between those who merely play the game, and those who make the game more than just that

Good post.

[Shanco]

Just a nitpick, really, but I would replace Emolga with Raikou.

While there's a good reason Emolga isn't in Standard often if at all, Raikou doesn't get enough love, either; it's got access to all the same offensive tools Jolteon has, but arguably does it better; furthermore, it counters all formes of Thundurus and Tornadus with impunity thanks to special bulk, Calm Mind and Volt Absorb (although the occasional HP Ground from Tornadus may give it some trouble). Xiph can tell you how easily it rips rain teams in two. In my opinion, CatDog needs to go in here if you're gonna list alternatives for Jolteon.

[The Fush]

Just a nitpick, really, but I would replace Emolga with Raikou.

While there's a good reason Emolga isn't in Standard often if at all, Raikou doesn't get enough love, either; it's got access to all the same offensive tools Jolteon has, but arguably does it better; furthermore, it counters all formes of Thundurus and Tornadus with impunity thanks to special bulk, Calm Mind and Volt Absorb (although the occasional HP Ground from Tornadus may give it some trouble). Xiph can tell you how easily it rips rain teams in two. In my opinion, CatDog needs to go in here if you're gonna list alternatives for Jolteon.

I put Emolga there because it was a bad example of trying to use something that does something similar to Jolteon, but worse. I wasn't trying to list examples, but rather get the point across of when you do originality bad.

[Summer]

I will humor you here.

First off, I wholeheartedly agree on the alternate methods to use your favourites to have them fight in OU.

Because of this, Baton Pass and Double Team are now glorified as methods to boost your bros to a higher level.

Not to say you're wrong and stuff, but it soon became annoying when your moves don't hit or you can never take out dat sub.

I just hope there are better ways to have your bros do some sweeping themselves instead of relying on luck or other stuff.

[The Fush]

I will humor you here.

First off, I wholeheartedly agree on the alternate methods to use your favourites to have them fight in OU.

Because of this, Baton Pass and Double Team are now glorified as methods to boost your bros to a higher level.

Not to say you're wrong and stuff, but it soon became annoying when your moves don't hit or you can never take out dat sub.

I just hope there are better ways to have your bros do some sweeping themselves instead of relying on luck or other stuff.

Eh, not taking it as saying I'm wrong. Anyway, that's more subjective, considering I tended to take more of a look at the pokemon than the movesets, because different pokemon can still use similar movesets.

Although while I'm at it, Baton Pass WITHOUT evasion can be more interesting to try and pull the ropes of, even if it can be a little gimmicky.

[Ringabel]

B-but lord smogon said otherwise ;-;

Those guys are fools in my book.

[Kiozo]

I wouldn't go as far to say not to use certain things in the tiers - I'm not sure if you're flat out saying "no" or you're implying to think twice to make sure that's what you really want.

I've used Pineco, Exeggcute, Mantyke, Oddish, Numel, and more in the tier, just because I wanted to. I didn't slap it on there with the same set and expect it to do identical though - I aimed things around it to make it work, and it does. I wish I had the replays of such stuff still haha.

I definitely advocate using things with more of an intelligent approach if you have the experience to do so, because it is tricky but fun and rewarding. I just try to look at it as another option to add overall, not an alternative to whatever I'm using at the moment.

Good post though, enjoyed seeing it.

[The Fush]

I wouldn't go as far to say not to use certain things in the tiers - I'm not sure if you're flat out saying "no" or you're implying to think twice to make sure that's what you really want.

I've used Pineco, Exeggcute, Mantyke, Oddish, Numel, and more in the tier, just because I wanted to. I didn't slap it on there with the same set and expect it to do identical though - I aimed things around it to make it work, and it does. I wish I had the replays of such stuff still haha.

I definitely advocate using things with more of an intelligent approach if you have the experience to do so, because it is tricky but fun and rewarding. I just try to look at it as another option to add overall, not an alternative to whatever I'm using at the moment.

Good post though, enjoyed seeing it.

I didn't say a flat out no to them, sorry if it sounded like that, but I'm pointing out that pokemon like that are usually far less effective in any aspect, and will usually merit you a lot less.

That, and nobody says you can't mess around OCCASIONALLY...

...

can I go and get a Numel now?

[Chrona]

Pretty good thread and I can agree with most of it

The Smogon hate seems a little juvenile and random though

[The Fush]

Pretty good thread and I can agree with most of it

The Smogon hate seems a little juvenile and random though

...what, that one reply I had to Summer's post? That can't even be considered hate...

At what point did I mention Smogon in my actual main post?

EDIT: Never mind I realized you were talking about rotomfan

[diana]

I've been on the receiving end of some.. unpleasent comments about team choices (Absol, Charizard, Aggron, Virizion and Cobalion, etc) on days that the server has had floods of people from crashed servers elsewhere. It's nice to see a topic like this, to open up people to subbing something like Raikou in for their Thundurus, or that Weavile over Mamoswine. A little more diversity in this netagame would be a relief to.. nearly everyone, and a topic like this could bring a change. Overall, a really nice topic that gives people something to consider.

[Joker]

I always used Umbreon in OU, and usually have Infernape in my non weather teams.But I never branch out further than UU for pokemon to use in OU. I'd say more than anything, we need to try and get more people interested in the lower tiers, rather than using lower tiered Pokemon in OU. Cause, c'mon, OU is getting rather stale.

[Kiozo]

I didn't say a flat out no to them, sorry if it sounded like that, but I'm pointing out that pokemon like that are usually far less effective in any aspect, and will usually merit you a lot less.

That, and nobody says you can't mess around OCCASIONALLY...

...

can I go and get a Numel now?

No worries, I'm sick so I probably need to take a minute to understand things better ^^

[Kamina]

So True Laxus .

As for you post Baka i do not really think it is issue as much with originality as it is with viability. In the example you used Crawdaunt as a dragon dancer but with its abysmal speed its still out speed by almost all sweepers even after its first dd and at its third there are still scarf sweepers that can out speed it. Plus mach punch is extremely common. Even so the trick room set that you displayed later can defiantly work (i have tried it before) since it has nice attack stat and with adaptability its waterfall can become quite deadly. Also with throh it has no recovery move in that set and its guaranteed to be out-speed by almost any poke (plus its taking residual damage from burn and maybe even sandstorm) it faces so its not gonna be living more than two shots from opposing poke while conculder can heal itself with drain punch. If you want to have a more diversified metagame than they only way to do that in my opinion is to actually do what smogon is doing and banning the most overused pokes in the tier :/. Not saying we should do it but we cant expect people to start using DD Crawdaunt when even at plus 4 speed is still going to be outspeed by an jolly exadrill in sand or a kingdra in rain or a venasour in the sun. That is my 2 cents PEACE! ( i do not support banning ss or exadrill for people who might have gotten that idea >>)

PS. (your post was interesting c:)

~Kamina

[Shgo]

Just going to throw out there that Adaptability makes Crawdaunt a fair bit stronger than Gyara. It also has a better typing x:

Other than that i'm loving this post. There are obviously some things that aren't going to be viable no matter what you do, but if more people started making new teams with uncommon threats on them, it could influence people to make teams with uncommon pokes to counter said threats and possibly have their own original sweepers that work well based on their team etc.. More to the point, we'd see new shiz instead of the same old stuff all the time.

Either way, I agree and think it's cool that someone finally brought this up q:

or we could just keep things how they are and make pokemon boring (come on... i'm not the only one who's thinking that)

Edited March 3, 2013 by TheyCallMeTony.

[Summer]

Those guys are fools in my book.

That's the joke.

[The Fush]

So True Laxus .

As for you post Baka i do not really think it is issue as much with originality as it is with viability. In the example you used Crawdaunt as a dragon dancer but with its abysmal speed its still out speed by almost all sweepers even after its first dd and at its third there are still scarf sweepers that can out speed it. Plus mach punch is extremely common. Even so the trick room set that you displayed later can defiantly work (i have tried it before) since it has nice attack stat and with adaptability its waterfall can become quite deadly. Also with throh it has no recovery move in that set and its guaranteed to be out-speed by almost any poke (plus its taking residual damage from burn and maybe even sandstorm) it faces so its not gonna be living more than two shots from opposing poke while conculder can heal itself with drain punch. If you want to have a more diversified metagame than they only way to do that in my opinion is to actually do what smogon is doing and banning the most overused pokes in the tier :/. Not saying we should do it but we cant expect people to start using DD Crawdaunt when even at plus 4 speed is still going to be outspeed by an jolly exadrill in sand or a kingdra in rain or a venasour in the sun. That is my 2 cents PEACE! ( i do not support banning ss or exadrill for people who might have gotten that idea >>)

PS. (your post was interesting c:)

~Kamina

Nothing I really have to poke at here, except for two things:

1: The DD set of Crawdaunt I posted was a way to point out that this thing could be done better, and that it would not serve you all that well in OU due to the meta in there. The Trick Room set was made to show that it could be done better. I wasn't suggesting for people to use DD Crawdaunt; I was suggesting them to think outside the box.

2. Throh has other things it's capable of that Conkeldurr isn't. Sure, it's a bit minimal with him performance in OU, but not everyone is looking for a recovery move to be bulky; if it's that much of a problem, you could give it leftovers, but ANYWAY, I was saying that it doesn't mean you can't use it in OU, and Throh has it's own ups; mainly it's phasing with Circle Throw, or it's extra buffyness with say, Bulk Up.

Also, Xiph, I completely agree; people need to start using other tiers aswell. Monotype and UU seem to be getting more attention lately (I myself am a frequent player of UU), but BL, LU, and NU need more love. I suppose it's because some people here don't realize Reborn tiers are different; BL is a little bigger, LU means RU and NU just seems to be... never used *shot*.

[Jory]

I'm a fan of this topic, although I will say that after having brought Cinccino (Rascal <3) into OU on more than a couple of occasions, lower-tier threats are very viable in OU. You're absolutely right when you say that there are other similar Pokemon who do the same thing better; after all, Cinccino is always beaten by Ambipom and Cloyster's bulk and access to Shell Smash makes it a much more viable Skill Link user. However, let's not discount the unpredictability of a lower-tier Pokemon; I cannot count how many times my team has been completely walled by Quagsire, thus forcing me to run something with access to a powerful Grass-type move (like Cinccino's Bullet Seed). Furthermore, I would have used Dragon Dance Whiscash as the example, as the attacking set (Waterfall and Earthquake) is the same, but with STAB.

Tony is absolutely correct when he says that some things will never be viable. Sorry Pachirisu, but you will NEVER find a spot on an OU team where you do anything right aside from look kawaii as fuck. I also think he's right when he says that we need to stop using such unoriginal Pokemon as Blaziken and Excadrill simply because they're a nearly guaranteed sweep. I just want justice for Rascal the lower tiered Pokemon we all love.

[Neo]

You people have never seen Maractus, have you?

But in all seriousness, it just takes a considerable amount of working to get certain Pokemon to work OU. I wouldn't write them out of OU usage just because of it either. Take my favorite Pokemon Dewgong for example, he's universally known as shit and is often seen as an inferior Walrein. However, when I've used it in OU and even Ubers (Fuck Manaphy, Dewgong OP<3), I've had moderate success. It all boils down to how you attack it. If you know that the Pokemon you're using is on the weak-side, it's all about planning. When, who, how do I plan for x, etc. All fall in to place if you're going to bring something from LU or lower into OU. With planning, anything is possible. There's a reason why I still use Maractus as my goto gal. Maractus > Kingdra, ask Owen.

Then there stands the issue of people who walk around acting like they're Jesus. H. Christ for using an "original team". "I use all of my favorite Pokemon. OU is so unoriginal and takes away from the fun of the game." Kudos them for deviating from the standard OU team, but being original just so you can say that you did something original or doing just for the sake of having others see you as original is, well..... unoriginal and stupid. At the end of the day, this game is competitive, and people like to win. In order to win, most will flock to the strongest Pokemon. It's been that way since Gen I when you couldn't go to a tournament without seeing the standard -Alakazam - Slowbro- Mewtwo- Chansey- Starmie -Gengar- teams. That's why we have tiers. That's why we have a ladder. However, If the FEAR strategy that tore up Wifi battling last gen has taught us anything, it's not to underestimate any Pokemon, even if they aren't viable in their own tier.

[slant]

The OU metagame is centralized around only a few very powerful pokemon. If you want a sand sweeper, pick Excadrill. Anything else you pick will almost surely be outclassed. Similarly if you want a rain sweeper, look no further than Kingdra or Ludicolo. This leaves very little room to make an original team and still succeed on the ladder. What Smogon has done to fix these problems is ban all those pokemon that overcentralize the metagame, but since Reborn refuses to do that I don't foresee the OU ladder having any more variety in the near future.

I am not saying ban these broken pokemon, but you can't have it both ways. If you ban them, you get the variety you are looking for, but if you don't, then everyone will abuse those same 5-10 pokemon. You can't allow Excadrill/Kingdra in the tier and then be surprised that everyone is using them.