[Discussion] Kyurem-B -> OU

[Amethyst]

So I mentioned this before

A- We're gonna start looking at things individually

B- this is our first individual thing.

Moving Kyurem-B down to OU.

We'll use this as a discussion thread, and then vote in no more than a week.

The reasoning behind this proposition is that, although Kyurem-B has a monstrous attack stat, it doesn't have the movepool to capitalise on it. As such, several servers with less lenient tiers than ours have already moved it into OU with minimal issue, and so it makes little sense to me, while we often have a more ban-forgiving OU metagame than others, to have something like that banned.

[Joker]

Hmm. I think Kyurem-B should stay Ubers. While it doesn't have the most wide movepool, it can cause a lot of damage with what it does have. For example, Porygon2, one of the best Eviolite users is 2HKO'd by a banded Outrage, which is common way to use Kyurem-B.

255 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 255 HP/255 Def Eviolite Porygon2 (+Def) : 54.55% - 64.17% (2 hits to KO)

255 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs 255 HP/255 Def Eviolite Porygon2 (+Def) : 49.73% - 58.56% (2-3 hits to KO)

One was Adamant, and the latter was Jolly. As you can see, both did a shit ton. Skarmory and Ferrothorn would be the only walls in the OU metagame to be able to effectively take a hit from this thing, as everything else is either OHKO'd, 2HKO'd. Swithing in those things also poses a problem because even though Skarm and Ferro are such beasts of walls, a banded Outrage still does a ton to them.

255 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 255 HP/255 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 33.53% - 39.52% (3-4 hits to KO)

255 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs 255 HP/255 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 30.54% - 35.93% (4 hits to KO)

Either way, Skarm is taking a heavy hit, your best bet would be to phase it out, but even so, Skarm would have took two of those Outrages... As for Ferrothorn, the calcs are about the same. Except Ferro has Iron Barbs, so it would at least be able to hurt it a little from that.

255 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 255 HP/255 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 33.24% - 39.2% (3-4 hits to KO)

255 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 255 HP/255 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 33.24% - 39.2% (3-4 hits to KO)

As for revenge killers, Breloom and Scizor come to mind. I remember fighting Serra's Kyurem-B in X-League, and OHKO'ing it with a banded Bullet Punch from my Scizor. I'm not sure if I got lucky or not, but with that in mind, Scizor would be the best revenge killer against Kyurem-B. Breloom also works. That is just the basic stuff, I'm sure when weather comes into play it's a whole other story. but I have to get to class so I can't type anymore.

[Noivy]

My vote is to bring Kyurem-B down to OU

Kyurem B is intimidating for those who havent faced it before (or often), so it has a certian shock value. However, it's movepool is crap, so the attack stat is dulled by the few useful moves it can learn. (Outrage, Dragon claw are the only Physical STAB moves it uses that dont require a turn to set up. Freeze Shock is next to useless without a power herb, which is only usable once) The only thing Kyurem-B has going for it is the massive attack stat, which as Xiph pointed out, gives it a bit of an edge for actually breaking through some steel walls. It's also slower than a lot of things in OU which in the speed dominated metagame, almost requires a scarf.

Also, the Dragon/Ice type pairing, while cool, does it in. Being weak to Fighting, Steel, Rock, and Dragon move(which are all very common in usage), and 1/4 hp gone to stealth rocks and more to other hazards.

[slant]

Bring it down! Sure it has killer attack stats but that's about all that it has. Its weaknesses completely cripple it. Weakness to stealth rock automatically knocks of 25% health. In addition if it gets locked into outrage it is easy to take it out with priority since it is weak to both mach punch and bullet punch.

I would put it in the same category as something like Breloom. If you are unprepared for it then it can mess your team up, but with a little bit of prep it won't be a huge problem.

[Epic C]

I agree with everyone else

BRING IT DOWN TO OU. ITS INFERRIOR TO KYUREM-W. Kyurem-W is otherwise known as Kyurem-Win

Edited April 24, 2013 by Epic C

[Joker]

The scarf set shouldn't be as big a problem since the power difference that band would have is way different. Also, I realized that Swift Swim+Drizzle is a thing here. That said, I change my stance. I guess we'll just see more scarf mence and scizor's being used, if anything.

EDIT: Thought it would be a good idea to give calcs for Breloom and Scizor against Kyurem-B.

Breloom: 255 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Kyurem-B: 65.98% - 77.49% (2 hits to KO)

255 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Kyurem-B: 50.64% - 59.85% (2 hits to KO)

The sash version would probably be the best bet against taking out Kyurem-B. Assuming that Rocks haven't been set up, of course.

Scizor: 255 Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Kyurem-B: 82.86% - 98.21% (2 hits to KO)

Scizor could take a scarf outrage plus anything else Kyurem-B decided to dish out, a prompt 2HKO, OHKO if you have Rocks up.

There are other pokemon such as Conkeldurr, Salamence, and Dragonite that could possibly revenge kill Kyurem-B. Salamence would be the best option being that it is much faster, and would make great use of choice scarf.

Kyurem-B is kinda OP, but I suppose it can be dealt with the proper preparation/pokemon. Also, Skarmory and Ferrothorn both take neutral damage from ice, so that could prove bad if your opponent predicts the switch into those. The band set is the most threatening, but as others have said, OU is a fast paced tier, so it would need that scarf, thus it would be powered down a little. Rain is also extremely common, as is Kingdra, and even with a choice scarf, Kyurem-B won't be outspeeding that seahorse at all. That's all the "checks" I can think of. I guess I'm done with this until voting. Peace.

[Ikaru]

I agree with everyone else

BRING IT DOWN TO OU. ITS INFERRIOR TO KYUREM-W. Kyurem-W is otherwise known as Kyurem-Win

Personally, I agree that Kyurem-W is better, but they're not very comparable due to being on opposite sides of the attacking spectrum- and even then you'll need a better reason than that to bring something down from Ubers.

As for my opinion on the topic, if it had Ice STAB I might've actually been afraid of it, but really, all it has is Dragon a single non-STAB Electric move, and a relatively low speed. The lack of Earthquake really hurts especially when Reshiram gets both Earthquake and Earth Power hahahaha and Ice is a pitiful defensive type- echoing Slant, the fact that it's weak to the two most common priority moves is a pretty big killer. Stealth Rock as well, though personally I don't run it on a few teams, would probably murder it due to most sets being choiced and required to switch in and out unless you're at the point where it'll just sweep with Outrage or something. The typing really lets it down, doubly so because it carries the weaknesses of the ice type, but none of the strengths.

tl;dr it's not something I'd be particularly afraid of- though I don't battle much and actually never on the ladder so idk

[Shanco]

I've always been on the side of Ubers, and here's why. Its Attack is massive, which is something seriously lacking in Ubers, thus giving Kyurem-B a niche up in that place. It can use Fusion Bolt to EASILY destroy Kyogre, which is great noting the fact that it can survive a Water Spout. Hazards really suck, but that's what Forretress and them are for. It's not like it has to rely on mediocre special attack, either - that's some crazy stuff there. TL;DR: amazing offensive stats, fair few resistances on nice bulk, outspeeds and destroys Kyogre AND Groudon, thus I say keep it in Ubers.

[Ikaru]

... how does it destroy Groudon?

And nothing is stopping it from being used in Ubers if it DOES move down.

[diana]

I vote to move it down. Echoing others--while it does have that ability, it's got three moves that it can use. Maybe if it had STAB or even a physical attack that wasn't Dragon Claw and Fusion Bolt, it'd be a threat. Plus that speed--unless it's scarfed, even Hydreigon outspeeds it and can make the behemoth eat shit. Scizor, Ferrothorn, and even Cobalion wall it, and can all smack it to the ground with a nice STAB Bullet Punch/Gyro Ball/Close Combat. LandorusnT can easily come in and Intimidate it, and even Stone Edge it with relatively no fear unless it has Freeze shock and Power Herb. Plus the weathers will make him die; all three have some sort of abuser that can easily take it on, outspeed, and OHKO/2HKO. Kingdra has that supee huge Draco Meteor, Excadrill has Iron Head or Rock Slide, and Venusaur has a 150-power Weather Ball with a fire typing, and even Sawsbuck has a nice Jump Kick in store for it.

TL;dr bring it down, because while it has a function in Uber, it has typing, speed and movepool that let it down.

[SonofCereal]

Bring it down. My Swellow can beat it. 'Nuff said.

[Ikaru]

... what kind of Kyurem-B are you facing ...

[Pocky]

Bring dat booty biotch down.

25% HP knocked off after skillpool

Not much of a great movepool

lolurtooslow

is that enough?

[SapphireSkyWillow]

I've always been on the side of Ubers, and here's why. Its Attack is massive, which is something seriously lacking in Ubers, thus giving Kyurem-B a niche up in that place. It can use Fusion Bolt to EASILY destroy Kyogre, which is great noting the fact that it can survive a Water Spout. Hazards really suck, but that's what Forretress and them are for. It's not like it has to rely on mediocre special attack, either - that's some crazy stuff there. TL;DR: amazing offensive stats, fair few resistances on nice bulk, outspeeds and destroys Kyogre AND Groudon, thus I say keep it in Ubers.

I agree with this. While Kyurem-W is slightly better than Kyurem-B, KB can destroy opponents with what he has. Yes, while some can take it down in an OHKO or 2-3 hits, it still had a good Attack stat. Honestly, even it it was moved down, that still doesn't mean it won't be used in an Ubers team. I used to use it, until I lost my data and had to resstart.

[Jory]

Kyurem-B simply cannot compete in Ubers. However, I would like to point out that Fusion Bolt breaks through Skarmory and you can slap Earth Power on it. It's coming off a base 120 SAtk stat, which even unboosted can do tons on tons to anything but SDef Heatran.

[SonofCereal]

... what kind of Kyurem-B are you facing ...

I believe that the real question is this: what kind of Swellow was it facing

[Kamina]

We are focusing to much on attack stat and not its speed stat. Yes Kyeurm-B will be able to destroy walls with hits super high attack stat (just like any other bannded poke but not as good a coverage) but against other sweepers it does not stand a chance especially with its poor typing and weakness to hazards and its abysmal speed. scarf it and it is still out speed by swift swimmers and sand rushers which usually carry a dragon move (kingdra) or a ground/fighting move (stoutland and exadrill). But the biggest point is that its already implemented in other places and they have noticed any big changes to meta game (and they do not even have access to swift swimmers and exadrill) and PO just 3 months ago were considering moving it to UU. If anyone can make a point as to why a OU metagame such as ours deserves to ban Kyerum-b to ubers while others stricter servers have had no problem keeping it in OU than they have won this argument.

[slant]

I've always been on the side of Ubers, and here's why. Its Attack is massive, which is something seriously lacking in Ubers, thus giving Kyurem-B a niche up in that place. It can use Fusion Bolt to EASILY destroy Kyogre, which is great noting the fact that it can survive a Water Spout. Hazards really suck, but that's what Forretress and them are for. It's not like it has to rely on mediocre special attack, either - that's some crazy stuff there. TL;DR: amazing offensive stats, fair few resistances on nice bulk, outspeeds and destroys Kyogre AND Groudon, thus I say keep it in Ubers.

Whether or not Kyurem-B has a niche in ubers is irrelevant to it being moved down to OU, you need to explain why it unbalances the OU tier. e.g. by the same reasoning I can argue that Gastrodon has a niche in ubers by countering Kyogre and rain teams, therefore it does not deserve to be in OU and should be moved up to ubers, but that doesn't make too much sense.

[Wes]

Both Kyurem Black and Kyurem White are crippled massively by their typing. Ice in general is just a bad type for something to have in a Metagame full of things like SR, Terrakion, BP Scizor, ect. The crude speed stats also make it even worse, requiring it to either tank or run a Scarf, and considering again it's Ice/Dragon, it's not going to do well at all, meaning it'll have to run a Scarf and attempt to sweep with things like Outrage and revenge kill with Draco Meteor.

When it comes to the differences between the two, it is a little more than appearence considering the attack stats are swapped. With Kyurem-B, you have the larger Attack stat and giving him a more powerful Outrage. The opposite for Kyurem-W, giving him the more powerful Draco Meteor. That being said, because Kyurem-W still has the 120 Base Attack stat, his Outrage hits really hard, due to you honestly needing less Physical Attack to sweep compared to Special, thus making Kyurem-W superior.

As for the actual placement of Kyurem-B, he's not really broken, just really strong. Hazzards, which are everywhere, and most steel types really are his bane of existence. He's definately top OU because of shear Attack stats, but his typing and speed honestly are what prevent him from being full-blown Uber.

[Difficult]

Reborn is a pretty relaxed-metagame server, no? If a Pokemon deemed not up to Ubers standards by Smogon out of all places, it should pretty much be the same here.

My vote is for Kyurem-B to be moved down to OU. I'll repeat what everybody said for why.

__

Kyurem-B, to me at least, is just a slow, REALLY bulky Infernape with different STABs. A sky-high attack stat mixed with a still-incredible Sp A stat gives it amazing potential to go with a mixed wallbreaking set-- completely obliterating designated tanks and walls, but not much else.

But what was wrong with Infernape? It was literally as frail as Deoxys-A. Kyurem-B is like this in its own way also-- it's weak to Stealth Rock and the most common priority moves seen in this server (CB Scizor's Bullet Punch and LO Techniloom's Mach Punch). Kyurem-B is also not the fastest nor the most weather-thriving Pokemon out there either, making it particularly susceptible to weather offensive teams.

Kyurem-B is just mainly held back by its bad ice typing. It's a terrible defensive typing, and for the offensive: there really is no need at all for Ice type STABs in OU unless your name is Don-"I can't do jack shit with Ice Shard"-phan, and as basically every allergic-to-ice Pokemon is most likely 4x weak to it, it's not exactly necessary unless you're trying to kill a Multiscale Dragonite.

__

OU. Please.

[Noivy]

After 2 days of inactivity in this thread, majority seems in favor of Kyurem-B Going from Ubers to Overused.

Im counting up the current votes based on the posts so far, we have

9 (clear votes) to bring Kyurem-B DOWN to OU

2 (clear votes) to KEEP Kyurem-B in Ubers.

[Patrick]

I think that Kyruem-B should be moved down to OU. I haven't been on in a while so i may have limited knowledge with this, but I feel that its movepool is very limited. Outrage and Dragon Claw are its only real useable STAB attacks (unless you want a wall for some reason and use Dragon Tail). Plus it has access to only one Ice move that's Physical, and it requires a turn to charge which gives ample time to switch into something that can take a hit or a sacrifice.

It also has plenty of weakness', Steel is not too bad in my opinion, unless you see Gyro Ball of Bullet Punch, but Fighting, Rock, and Dragon makes it that much beatable.

Its speed it also only average. 95 Isn't bad but it has plenty of things that can outspeed it in OU. It also has no real way of fighting off priority moves, at least that I know of.

And finally I see a crucial weakness in Stealthrock. Used pretty often in OU and without a spiner you lose 25% HP and you can't use a Focus Sash (I would ask why you would but that's just me xD).

Edited April 28, 2013 by Patrick

[Difficult]

Just a random question:

If Kyurem-B ends up being moved down to OU and is basically declared broken by a majority of the players, would we be allowed to vote it back up to ubers?

Or would it be a "fuck you, you chose it, live with it" sort of thing?

[Ikaru]

I'm sure it could be undone if it does end up being a mistake.

[frenchfryminyman]

I would say that it is 100% a Ubers level pokemon. I can't see it being able to used in the OU tier because its massive attack makes it extremely difficult to get at; especially if it is banded.