My starter doesn't obey ?

[Quasar47]

Hi everyone, I managed to reach the city named Onyx Ward with my lvl 26 Prinplup (my starter) and a full team, including a lvl 26 Kricketune I've received at the start of the game. For some reason, even though I haven't traded any of them, both refuse to obey me sometimes, take naps in the middle of a battle (that's funny to watch tho), etc... 

 

I know this is supposed to heppen for traded pokemons, but why does it happen for my starter / offered pkmn ? Is it a bug ?

[Tacos]

In Reborn, this is the function of the level cap.  Disobedience is no longer just a feature for traded Pokemon, but for all your pokemon.  The item called Common Candies can be used to lower their levels so they can obey until you get your next badge.

[Sayia]

As Tacos said. 

Also, you can check the level cap in your trainer card. 

[AweKartik777]

And whenever you win a badge the gym leader says the new level cap in the dialogue itself.

[Quasar47]

17 minutes ago, Tacos said:

In Reborn, this is the function of the level cap.  Disobedience is no longer just a feature for traded Pokemon, but for all your pokemon.  The item called Common Candies can be used to lower their levels so they can obey until you get your next badge.

Ok, so here is my team : 

 

- A lvl 8 Zigzagoon (just a slave)

- A lvl 21 Wormadam (currently griding to keep it at its best)

- 2 lvl 25 Noibat and Loudred

- A lvl 26 Prinplup

- A lvl 27 Kricketune

 

I only have one badge, and currently battling against all the second gym members before the champion.

 

So, you're basically telling me that if I want to continue playing the game without an handicap against a champion who already had beaten up my team for my first badge, I have to willingly handicap my pokemons so that they're not too overpowered for my future matchs ?

 

This is the most stupid way of introducing challenge I've ever seen in a Pokemon game. I mean, ok, maybe I am not supposed to grind in this game, but... Undoing all of my progress just to give a chance to a guy I'm supposed to beat... Heck, why should I give him a chance, I'm supposed to beat him ! And more importantly, if it's so easy to grind in this game, why not make that part of the game more difficult, or strengthen up my enemies' pokemons in gyms ? Why should I waste pokedollars and progress in order to give me a chance of loosing ?

 

I mean, look at my team! If I don't use a Common Candy to weaken them, none of them will obey me, and I'm gonna get destroyed again and again by the same guy over and over... and I'm barely at my second badge, so what is it going to be when I am halfway through the game ?

 

I don't want to use Common Candy. I don't want to do something I'm not supposed to do to play "fair". I've already sold each Common candy I've found to gain a bit of money to spend for pokeballs and potions. Is this system telling me all this progress was lost ? I mean, I'm still at the beginning of the game, so I haven't got that much progress, but is it going to be the same for all gym leaders ? And what if my pokemons aren't strong enough to beat them, even though they're just at the limit ?

 

This is not even bad game design, it's stupid. I want to hear the reason why this system was implemented, because it's ludicrous.

 

 

[Lightp]

Soft level cap has been pretty common in difficulty hacks. In Insurgence you only earn 1 experience, in Nameless Red you don't get any experience at all and in Reborn Pokemon disobey you. Reborn has the most ''organic'' and ''canon'' system, albeit the most annoying one if you're not expecting it but it's nowhere as bad as you make it sound.

A level cap is needed to ensure fair difficulty, if you make the gym leader's Pokes too high level then you're forced to grind and that's actually bad game design aka time=win instead of skill=win.

I'm sorry to say that if you usually resort to grinding to brute-force your way into games, it won't work on Reborn.

[Tacos]

17 minutes ago, Quasar47 said:

This is not even bad game design, it's stupid. I want to hear the reason why this system was implemented, because it's ludicrous.

Well, to answer your question (and don't take my words here for 100% truth, I am not Ame and therefore do not know her exact thought processes), the point is to bring an extra layer to the challenge of Reborn.  Grinding your pokemon to levels where they can instantly sweep others in important battles essentially removes the challenge from battles that are meant to be intimidating and telling of the challenge ahead with Reborn.  In addition, the level cap rewards players for distributing their experience amongst multiple pokemon, rather than grinding a select team of 6.  This allows players to create teams with a vast variety of pokemon in rotation that can gain experience through wild pokemon and minor trainer battles, and can then be rotated to create optimal teams for important battles.  At the end of the day, this game promotes strategy and adaptability over brute force tactics; make use of the unique attributes of the pokemon available and how they function with certain field effects to manipulate battles in your favor rather than pummeling each pokemon by grinding 10+ levels above them.  It can be understandably frustrating, but it's something that you'll learn to adjust to over time.  And if you don't, it's perfectly alright to not play the game if you're not enjoying yourself.

[chaoticangel97]

Was gonna comment on this, but Tacos above put it way better than I could.

[Quasar47]

2 minutes ago, Tacos said:

Well, to answer your question (and don't take my words here for 100% truth, I am not Ame and therefore do not know her exact thought processes), the point is to bring an extra layer to the challenge of Reborn.  Grinding your pokemon to levels where they can instantly sweep others in important battles essentially removes the challenge from battles that are meant to be intimidating and telling of challenge ahead with Reborn.  In addition, the level cap rewards players for distributing their experience amongst multiple pokemon, rather than grinding a select team of 6.  This allows players to create teams with a vast variety of pokemon in rotation that can gain experience through wild pokemon and minor trainer battles, and can then be rotated to create optimal teams for important battles.  At the end of the day, this game promotes strategy and adaptability over brute force tactics; make use of the unique attributes of the pokemon available and how they function with certain field effects to manipulate battles in your favor rather than pummeling each pokemon by grinding 10+ levels above them.  It can be understandably frustrating, but it's something that you'll learn to adjust to over time.  And if you don't, it's perfectly alright to not play the game if you're not enjoying yourself.

 

 

I know I may look like I'm overreacting, and I admit I'm a bit frustrated, you're totally right, but I wanted to know the reasons why the devs have chosen this constraint and not simply buffing the gym leaders (while giving less xp when defeated to balance the combats, maybe). I don't mean buffing them to the point of grinding hours to beat them, but just enough to justify the high level of my pokemons obtained by simple playing the game normally.

 

7 minutes ago, Lightp said:

A level cap is needed to ensure fair difficulty, if you make the gym leader's Pokes too high level then you're forced to grind and that's actually bad game design aka time=win instead of skill=win.

 

I won't counter argue to annoy you (is this the right sentence ? Sorry, I'm not a native speaker), but I don't see the skill you're mentionig when more than half of my attacks are canceled just because my pokemons are "loafing aroounnd" are decide to disobey. Forcing me to play weaker pokemons doesn't make combats more balanced when they are already as hard as they should be. I am supposed to train pokemons to make them stronger, and asking me to weaken them completely goes against the main goal of the game : What I'm supposed to do in the first place.

 

That said, no, it's not as disruptive as I made it look above. It's just that there are other solutions that just restraining the progress of the player. Grinding may be a bad design choice, I won't argue with anybody on that, but at least there's still the feeling of progress.

 

[DemICE]

In your trainer cardm there are numbers  next to your last badge.  This is your current level cap.  Check it out after every leader. Heck, when you beat Julia she told you "pokemon up to level 25 willl obey you"  (i hope you dont skip text in this game, You need the info).

 

So when you beat a leader, check your level cap, and plan accordingly, and you will not end up with disobeying pokemon. 

[Zander]

Bruh don't even bother arguing so much. No one here is going to change the game for this complaint and if you push the topic too much then many people will jump on you and your notifications will be a waste of time. Just go with how the game is because this is definitely not the last time you're going to be frustrated by this game.

[wcv]

Just now, Quasar47 said:

I don't mean buffing them to the point of grinding hours to beat them, but just enough to justify the high level of my pokemons obtained by simple playing the game normally.

The thing is, its not that hard to not overlevel if you don't grind endlessly. I almost never use common candies and my Pokemon are never over or under leveled. If you play the game normally then you end up at the right point, not facing this problem. The game TELLS you this is going to happen. Repeatedly. And one of those is a scene that  you have to go through to get started. Julia also told you it would happen when you beat her.

 

2 minutes ago, Quasar47 said:

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker), but I don't see the skill you're mentionig when more than half of my attacks are canceled just because my pokemons are "loafing aroounnd" are decide to disobey. Forcing me to play weaker pokemons doesn't make combats more balanced when they are already as hard as they should be. I am supposed to train pokemons to make them stronger, and asking me to weaken them completely goes against the main goal of the game : What I'm supposed to do in the first place.

It doesn't matter how much other trainers get buffed. You can ALWAYS grind your way past them if you have the time and patience. By making you face the gym leaders on the level they (the leaders) are required to be at by basic programming the game is forcing you to think, to show that you are capable of playing the game with skill rather than simply brute forcing your way past the challenges by using Pokemon ten levels above your opponent. Anyone can beat a Pokemon team if their Pokemon are level 35 while their opponents are level 25. You have to know what you're doing to fight other trainers on an even footing.

 

Not that it IS an even footing. The AI is not capable of matching a human player on any level. You go in with the inherent advantage of being a person versus the machine. You can strategize, think long-term, etc. (not to mention you get infinite item use). If anything the AI should get a bigger handicap to make up for that.

[Quasar47]

Just now, DemICE said:

In your trainer cardm there are numbers  next to your last badge.  This is your current level cap.  Check it out after every leader. Heck, when you beat Julia she told you "pokemon up to level 25 willl obey you"  (i hope you dont skip text in this game, You need the info).

Spoiler alert : Yeah, of course I skipped it. I skipped it in the original games too, why would I read the same thing over and over again, about a particular thing that, I assumed at the moment, only affected traded pokemons in the original ? 

 

Unless that gym leader specifically said that it affected all pokemons, in which case it was already too late because she would have said it in a separated dialog, where the player is fully focused on the conversation, rather than at the end of an gym, where everyone skips the repetitive dialog just to get the TM and move on to the next city...

[Tacos]

13 minutes ago, Quasar47 said:

I know I may look like I'm overreacting, and I admit I'm a bit frustrated, you're totally right, but I wanted to know the reasons why the devs have chosen this constraint and not simply buffing the gym leaders (while giving less xp when defeated to balance the combats, maybe). I don't mean buffing them to the point of grinding hours to beat them, but just enough to justify the high level of my pokemons obtained by simple playing the game normally.

While the options you listed may seem optimal, they lack rigidity unfortunately.  The reason the level cap is effective is because it allows difficulty to remain consistent.  Increasing gym leader levels or decreasing experience gain while removing the level cap unfortunately does not prohibit people from leveling their pokemon to absurd levels.  There will still be outliers who will suffer through the process of grinding to absurd lengths in order to evenly match or even exceed the level of the important battles, or to overcome to lessened experience.  The level cap provides a set level of difficulty that also helps guide the progress of levels throughout the game.  To adjust it would be to throw much of the game's level design into disarray.  And even if you surpass the level cap, there's always the chance your pokemon will still obey.  So you can always test your luck if you truly want to.

 

13 minutes ago, Quasar47 said:

asking me to weaken them completely goes against the main goal of the game : What I'm supposed to do in the first place.

While that may be the main goal of most official pokemon games, this specific game's main goal unfortunately is not.  Strategizing and adaptability to a constantly changing challenges are.

 

2 minutes ago, Quasar47 said:

Spoiler alert : Yeah, of course I skipped it. I skipped it in the original games too, why would I read the same thing over and over again, about a particular thing that, I assumed at the moment, only affected traded pokemons in the original ? 

 

Unless that gym leader specifically said that it affected all pokemons, in which case it was already too late because she would have said it in a separated dialog, where the player is fully focused on the conversation, rather than at the end of an gym, where everyone skips the repetitive dialog just to get the TM and move on to the next city...

You're right, that's a tendency most people have.  At this point, you now know the importance of reading the dialogue and this can simply be a learning experience.

[Quasar47]

1 hour ago, wcv said:

The thing is, its not that hard to not overlevel if you don't grind endlessly. I almost never use common candies and my Pokemon are never over or under leveled. If you play the game normally then you end up at the right point, not facing this problem. The game TELLS you this is going to happen. Repeatedly. And one of those is a scene that  you have to go through to get started. Julia also told you it would happen when you beat her.

 

It doesn't matter how much other trainers get buffed. You can ALWAYS grind your way past them if you have the time and patience. By making you face the gym leaders on the level they (the leaders) are required to be at by basic programming the game is forcing you to think, to show that you are capable of playing the game with skill rather than simply brute forcing your way past the challenges by using Pokemon ten levels above your opponent. Anyone can beat a Pokemon team if their Pokemon are level 35 while their opponents are level 25. You have to know what you're doing to fight other trainers on an even footing.

 

Not that it IS an even footing. The AI is not capable of matching a human player on any level. You go in with the inherent advantage of being a person versus the machine. You can strategize, think long-term, etc. (not to mention you get infinite item use). If anything the AI should get a bigger handicap to make up for that.

 

 

Ok, I understand. I won't argue any longer. That's the devs' choice, I can't do anything against it. I just wanted to know their reasons, i have my answer.

 

1 hour ago, Tacos said:

 

While that may be the main goal of most official pokemon games, this specific game's main goal unfortunately is not.  Strategizing and adaptability to a constantly changing challenges are.

My last reply for this topic :

 

Yeah, I can understand their choice. I doesn't please me, but it means I have to adapt. Once again, I'm not here to argue, I just wanted to know their reasons for implementing that system, I have answer now. I won't extend the conversation for nothing.

[wcv]

Just now, Quasar47 said:

 

 

Ok, I understand. I won't argue any longer. That's the devs' choice, I can't do anything against it. I just wanted to know their reasons, i have my answer.

I will say, the game is not as hard as it might appear. Mostly you just need to strategize a bit. If you train up the Zigzagoon a bit and shrink the Prinplup and Kricketune you really shouldn't have any problem with Florinia. While she's not super easy she is still fairly straightforward.

 

And the level cap is hardest to work around at the beginning of the game when you only have a small number of Pokemon available.

[Quasar47]

Just now, wcv said:

 

And the level cap is hardest to work around at the beginning of the game when you only have a small number of Pokemon available.

Yeah, I think that's what bothered me at first, I clearly didn't expect that.

 

1 minute ago, wcv said:

If you train up the Zigzagoon a bit and shrink the Prinplup and Kricketune...

Be assured I won't.

 

 

That said, thank you all for your replies.

[Commander]

I mean I don't think this is wrong but it kind of was a lazily built system to prevent power grinding since all it requires was removing a small snippet of code.

 

As for the whole level limiter concept from Rejuv...which was the thing I did first, that isn't a solution I'm happy with but it is a great band aid fix for the mod I was/am working on. Honestly the ideal system is in between that and the disobedience system. And don't worry as the level cap issue will be less of a hassle as time goes on.

[murcrow]

Just one more thing that I think is worth mentioning as you follow the standard pokemon game mindset; do the extra reading for this game. There are lots of good jokes, references and forshadowing in many conversations that can be considered standard, even a random NPC can make a reference to a favorite media o yours, which is one of the things that makes this game special

 

Also, take the chance the new episode is coming out and restart your game. The AI will change and maybe even some leaders pokemons... win win

[Eevee]

Just wait until he gets to the part with Solaris XD

[Trufa]

I can't say I felt a bit salty while reading, but even if you are not going to read/answer anymore, let's put up some arguments. Perhaps you missed the point of pokemon Reborn. The game was intentionally made to be more challenging than official games and I think that's one of the reasons it has so many players, me included. Oh, can't beat Giovanni? Just lvl my mons more 10 levels and go for it. Too easy. Indeed you are supposed to beat them, however, if the second gym had pokemons lvl 70, the player could just grind until 75 and bang, game over. Grinding is not that easy on Reborn. I invite you to lvl up your mons to lvl 45 and try to add a new member without using Exp. Share  You talk about 'progression' if you mean lvl progression, then yes, you'll be frustated, but the progression you seek on Reborn is story related and the reward is even higher than a couple of lvls, in terms of enjoyment. You also talk about 'skill', to win Reborn, you'll have to learn from mons you would never use on official games, it's moves, stats, abilities and also has to learn about the fields over the game, then you can use all the knowledge gathered against the adversary, there comes your skill. But if you still think this system is an heresy against Pokemon standarts, I'm sure you can find some mods to ease your game on the mod market (I'll link it bellow since you seems to be new here), breeding good mons (which you aren't able at this point of the game, nor late I suppose taking in account your dislike for studying the game) or you can try asking for good stats mons for trade on the forum or try Wonder Trade on you Pokégear, I'm sure Pokédollar won't be a problem, this last option should be done after the maintenance that have just been announced though. Good luck .

 

 - ah, I just read it again and I'm 100% sure it says all over the beginning of the game that ALL mons (not just trade ones) won't listen if the player let it reach a certain lvl without the proper badge. God, there is even an event that shows it right after the player choses its starter -

 

http://www.rebornevo.com/forum/index.php?/forum/76-the-mod-market/

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Trufa

[N1Dude]

47 minutes ago, Quasar47 said:

Be assured I won't.

If the amount of work and time put in the mons is something you cherish I'm sure people (including me) would be able to trade you a couple of common candies and rare candies to make up for it and to lower your frustration. I mean we're at the end of the game rn and it takes us 2 grinding matches to get the money back.

 

The only thing you will have to do is give us mons you will never intend to use or take the item of the Mon we traded and trade the Mon back you traded us. If you're interested give me a pm. Not sure how many rare candies and how much money i have on me rn. Just hoping to help you and maybe rise the amusement level of the game for you

[Quasar47]

Don't get me wrong Trufa, I've stopped to answer because I said what I had to say and what I thought about this system. I don't think it's an heresy at all, I just think that applying a system originally geared towards traded pokemons cannot be applied the same way on normal pokemons as easily as that. I've also had the answers I was looking for. Maybe my lack of comprehension towards this system comes from the fact that the others fan games I played were in the same style as Dark Rising - games revolving entirely on an absurdly high level of difficulty that needed brute force to go through (and some skill, believe it or not).

 

49 minutes ago, Trufa said:

 

 - ah, I just read it again and I'm 100% sure it says all over the beginning of the game that ALL mons (not just trade ones) won't listen if the player let it reach a certain lvl without the proper badge. God, there is even an event that shows it right after the player choses its starter.

 

Ok, I haven't watched it then. You're not the only one saying that, and I have this habit of reading quickly, so maybe I accidently skipped a line or two. That's what I always do when the characters talk about gameplay (because, you know, Pokemon...)

 

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, N1Dude said:

If the amount of work and time put in the mons is something you cherish I'm sure people (including me) would be able to trade you a couple of common candies and rare candies to make up for it and to lower your frustration. I mean we're at the end of the game rn and it takes us 2 grinding matches to get the money back.

 

The only thing you will have to do is give us mons you will never intend to use or take the item of the Mon we traded and trade the Mon back you traded us. If you're interested give me a pm. Not sure how many rare candies and how much money i have on me rn. Just hoping to help you and maybe rise the amusement level of the game for you

 

 

You're kind to propose me that, but you don't have to. If I give up and ask for help now, even a little bit, then it means I won't be able to play the game by myself later, when I have to fight the next gyms ( and my pride would be a bit banged up ^^' ) .

 

And, even if that's already the case, I don't want to look like a capricious kid people give candies to appease his frustration. That would hurt my pride a bit ^^

[CrossImpact]

Don't be so explosive if you don't like something, haha. Not liking something is okay, but make sure to stay respectful when writing about it.
People always seem to think that a developer is not aware of what they are doing.
Ame herself has probably mentioned more things she is unhappy about with Reborn than anyone else. At least, she is the most aware of them.
Likewise, she's aware of the up- and downsides of the level cap system.
Who knows, if Reborn would start to be developed these days, she might even use a different one. Reborn is 6 years old by now, which you might not know.
Changing it at this point however would throw over everything - unless, by some miracle, it would be a very smooth solution.

I hope you can enjoy the game anyway. You can always ask for advice on the forums, quite some people here know a lot about Pokémon and Reborn in particular.

[N1Dude]

5 minutes ago, Quasar47 said:

 

 

You're kind to propose me that, but you don't have to. If I give up and ask for help now, even a little bit, then it means I won't be able to play the game by myself later, when I have to fight the next gyms ( and my pride would be a bit banged up ^^' ) .

 

And, even if that's already the case, I don't want to look like a capricious kid people give candies to appease his frustration. That would hurt my pride a bit ^^

Haha, i can respect that. Good luck with the rest of the game and I sincerely hope you'll have a LOT of fun playing it like the rest of this awesome community!