E18 Gym Battle Difficulty

[Feng Lei]

So... I hesitated to make this thread, especially since I'm not the best player in the world. But, I felt like I honestly couldn't sit quiet on this, so here I go:

 

Spoiler

First off, I'm not a very good player in Pokemon. Reborn was my first real experience in Pokemon in over half a decade. I'd never learned about Evs or Ivs, and still don't have a good handle on team synergy. In my first couple playthroughs, the number of whiteouts I had were ridiculous against just about every major opponent of importance. That said, despite my significant improvement over the past year, I had real trouble with Titania and Amaria, having to at least challenge the former thrice before getting the victory, and Ameria.... let's not even discuss.

 

And then comes Hardy. Beat him on my second try, and that's only because the first had me determined to use my Charizard X and an Aggron with Rockclimb instead of Bulldoze. Honestly, I'm very, very disappointed in his difficulty level, his team particularly. Yes, yes, he is the Rock gym leader. He can't be as powerful or fearsome as the others. Nevertheless, his team is inferior to what it could be. I'm no master of the metagame, but even I can tell the team itself doesn't work. His pokemon go down about as fast as they do in the double battle against the Orderlies, and that's pretty quick. With his strategy of mindless unboosted offense, he attacks with the strategy of a 10 year old. It honestly reminds me of myself when I first started playing Reborn! The same strategy that got me destroyed. Again and again.

 

And again...

 

So,  why is it that the developers chose to make the second to last gym leader a complete pushover? Taking his type into account, one would expect Ame to stack the odds in his favor as much as possible? Let's take a look at another Rock trainer, the Cassanova from the Sunday trainer roster in the Trainer Hall. He only has five pokemon and one of them's not even Rock, but his difficulty mostly stems from his Swords Dance Kabutops. That thing still causes me trouble. In a double, it might be less viable, I am no expert, but it feels like the thing would suit Hardy far more than the Archeops, of all unfortunate mons. The Kabutops would even fit Hardy's style of hyper-offense.

 

And then we have other glaringly missing options, like Rhyperior, Tyranitar, and even Tyrantrum.

 

Tyranitar is the biggest absence. I frankly see no excuse if the idea is that Solaris is using one and so disqualifies Hardy from said privilege. There's honestly no excuse for giving him two Lycanrocks in place of a Tyranitar, which would at least make his team slightly less helpless. I mean really, he has a Rampardos. As much as I love that pokemon, it's... well, Rampardos. A Pickachu with a fractured tail could still beat the darn thing. Ok maybe not but you get my point

 

I'm really sorry about being a wet blanket and basically ranting, but I was really hyped for this battle, and the team devs did not deliver at all. Plenty of trainers in Meteor had rock-themed teams that still threatened me more with their synergy. Hardy failed utterly, and I know there's other options that could have been selected. The Lycanrocks, for instance. I love them, but we've been fighting these things since Aster and Eclipse, and they are frankly not impressive anymore. Neither is fast or strong enough to do anything of substance. And let us be honest, we now have access to the strongest non-legendaries. Hardy should be given all the cards to work with to ensure he puts up a descent fight, and not be a fragile, dry sandstone facade.

 

Now, I'm not a master team builder to know what's best. But couldn't the Lycanrocks be switched to something more threatening? Say, a Tyranitar, if nothing else? The second could be just about anything else, preferably Shuckle to set up hazards. Heck, the Shuckle alone would have caused more trouble than the wolves. Hardy needs utility on his team to compete with players who have access to so many options, even if we don't go for training that Gible or Larvitar.

 

My team won out because of Ferrothorn running a Thunderwave/ Gyro Ball / Iron Defense / Power Whip set. Thunderwave shut down Aerodactyle and rendered it useless not only on my first battle, which did end in my defeat, but also my successful rematch as well. Having his Mega sit there helplessly, when a simple Full Heal or Full Restore could have potentially altered the flow of battle was just... sad.

 

I mean, I get it if the game bans items in gym battles. But when a player has access to all the battle and healing items, including cheaty revives, it's really not fair if the leader isn't provided with an ample supply of them as well. Not enough to needlessly prolong battles, but, say, a Full Restore for each Pokemon isn't too bad a stretch, is it? Or better yet, program it so the leader is granted the same number of healing items as the player... that would be awesome!

 

Anyway, I would really love it if Hardy's battle was tweaked a little, or better yet revised and amped for max difficulty. Nerf the other leaders, if needs be, but the next to last leader, as well as the last, should be the two hardest of all, especially in light of the player's innumerable options to eventually win. My humblest apologies if this comes across as offensive. I know how much effort and struggle, personal time and effort is put into Reborn by Ame and the other Devs. It's an amazing game, and the story portion of the episode was incredible! However, it ended on a very low, sour note. Hardy's amazing gym needs a fight worth remembering, and fearing.

 

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but with a long string of amazing fights, it is sad to fight Hardy at the end and find him wanting. Especially after the epic match with Solaris.

 

As to what I'd do for increasing his difficulty if it were my decision, well... I know I'd make some liberal use of fissure and accuracy buffs. But then, I'm definitely no master strategist in the game. Solaris, Ameria and Serra have probably killed me enough times to murder off an entire convention of cats, all their nine lives included.

 

Anyway, thanks Ame for E18. It was quite the show. But it would be awesome to see some changes by the public release, while time still permits.

[LilyX]

Spoiler

While I agree with most of your points, I don´t think he was a pushover. While your team seems to go towards bulky offense (which is kinda good against hyper offense in general), more offensive teams will have quite a few problems against Hardy, since the majority of his team is just extremely fast. Exchanging the Lycanrocks and Archeops would take away the thing that makes his team work against offensive teams. And let´s be honest: a Tyranitar or Kabutops won´t really make a difference against a team like yours with pokemon like Ferrothorn. To summarize: You won´t be able to build a team that´s good against every type of playstyle - so generally you have to pick your poison. In Hardy´s case, he´s weak to bulkier teams but good against offensive teams.

 

About the Leaders not using items: As far as I know, that´s an AI issue at the moment.

 

[Angelkitsune]

Spoiler

I have to admit i have high hopes for hardy as well since ya know he is the second last Gym Leader. I almost expect to get thrash by him just like his girlfriend on my first try because i was actually playing this blind but nooo... my flygon just OHKO his pokemon except Aerodactly. I think his team need to be tweaked a bit like get rid of midday lycanrock or increase his pokemon levels like come on his signature gigalith is only level 90 no wonder it cannot break sh*t .

 

Anyways these are some of the words i have to say about Hardy's team who knows maybe commander will make it hard in Pokemon Redux 

 

but then again maybe i was overprepared or something as he uses the same offensive strategy like me(Hit very fast and hard but very fragile)if you outspeed him he is done for, maybe if they fix the AI about not healing Pokemon he may be harder.Still Ame and the other developers have already worked hard on this game so i can't complaint (/▽＼)

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Angelkitsune

[Pisy]

Spoiler

I agree.
I used a Lanturn (with Ion deluge), a Swampert and a Silvally (steel type).

Hardy didn't use a single ultra potion. Neither when he could.

But honestly, also with Amaria I found no difficulty. I beat her with a Walrein (with blizzard, to change the field) and then a Shedinja. No other pokèmon.

So, the third last gym leader was pretty weak, for me. 

 

 

[CrossImpact]

Spoiler

Yes, the core weakpoint of Hardy is his one-dimensionality. You get the jump one time, you'll win. There will be some things that just totally shut him down. But that's not even exclusive to him either.
Like, if you can KO or impair the Aerodactyl on turn one while using a Rain Dance with your other mon, and then either having something with really high base speed (like a Starmie) or a capable Swift Swimmer with Surf waiting to outpace even his team.

Item usage for the AI is still beaing tweaked and a bit of a headache overall.

Consider that he is probably the leader straying the hardest (hah) away from his Online League counterpart who battled in triples and with an immensely smart usage of Trick Room instead of having a simple high speed sweeping setup. It is imaginable that given his type, it becomes much harder to make it an apt challenge the more options are taken from him, and you'd probably need a specifically written AI to dish it out.

Tyranitar is a questionable choice not due to the Pokémon, but due to Luna also having one already. I would imagine that Ame is trying to make the leaders' teams not have repetitions among each other.
But also, Ame will thoroughly consider any feedback. It wouldn't be the first time she changed up a team between community and public release.

 

[Feng Lei]

Spoiler

To explain to LilyX, I would like to clarify something. The team I used against Hardy almost lost to the Cassanova. Ferrothorn alone, hell, Ferrothorn and Mega Aggron, the bulky attackers/defenders in my team, fared bad against Hardy. Honestly, this IS, as you say, an AI issue. Not just with the potions and heal items, but with how they refused to focus on Ferrothorn. They took out Aggron VERY well, that Rock S'MASHED being VERY useful as a counter to Aggron's hax defenses. But then they just straight up ignored Ferrothorn. And that's definitely the AI, not the team itself.

 

However, my team is offensive outside Ferrothorn and Mega Aggron. My main sweepers are either Charizard/Blaziken and my glorious shiny KlingKhan (as played by Klingklang). Then I had a Kingdra, a Rhyperior (Which died quickly to an epic twin Aqua Tail), and I forget what else I was running at the time.

 

But while the AI in all truth IS the major problem, since Hardy needs to not make mistakes that the AI is making, the team is an issue. There are two Lycanrocs. BAD. If Hardy is going to have two of ANYTHING, it should be Aerodactyls. Two of those should be a better speed choice, no?

 

Regardless, having a Tyranitar would be scary. The presence of a bulky offense like Rhyperior or Tyranitar would have spelled doom for me, as nothing I have would have survived them. Moreover, there is president. If Hardy is hyper-offense and doesn't go for bulky offense, what, then, is Gigalithe supposed to be? Cuz it's pretty darn slow and bulky offensivish.

 

So in summery, I concede your point about AI being an issue. Honestly, the AI was FAR, FAR harder to me in E16. It only started making stupid mistakes or choices in E17. I have noticed a distinct lack of restore item use in E17 and E18 compared to E16.

 

But that extra Lycanroc, HAS to go if Ame expects me to take his team seriously. Better yet, be true to the original Hardy and give him Solrock and Lunatone. Those two in a rocky field and Sandstorm active would surely put up a better fight than those toothpick legged wolves. They ain't nothin but hound~dogs... to paraphrase a certain song.

 

If it were my choice, I would make a bulky offensive Rock team with speedy hyperoffensive sweeper. And Shuckle. Shuckle alone would destroy the team I won with.

[Feng Lei]

18 minutes ago, CrossImpact said:

  Hide contents

Yes, the core weakpoint of Hardy is his one-dimensionality. You get the jump one time, you'll win. There will be some things that just totally shut him down. But that's not even exclusive to him either.
Like, if you can KO or impair the Aerodactyl on turn one while using a Rain Dance with your other mon, and then either having something with really high base speed (like a Starmie) or a capable Swift Swimmer with Surf waiting to outpace even his team.

Item usage for the AI is still beaing tweaked and a bit of a headache overall.

Consider that he is probably the leader straying the hardest (hah) away from his Online League counterpart who battled in triples and with an immensely smart usage of Trick Room instead of having a simple high speed sweeping setup. It is imaginable that given his type, it becomes much harder to make it an apt challenge the more options are taken from him, and you'd probably need a specifically written AI to dish it out.

Tyranitar is a questionable choice not due to the Pokémon, but due to Luna also having one already. I would imagine that Ame is trying to make the leaders' teams not have repetitions among each other.
But also, Ame will thoroughly consider any feedback. It wouldn't be the first time she changed up a team between community and public release.

 

Sorry for double post. I is having issues with quoting in the edit option... not good with forums. Or computers in general...
 

Spoiler

 

Ok, I would honestly not consider Luna's Tyranitar an issue. And I thoroughly agree with Ame on keeping team variety and uniqueness. However... Unlike Cradily and Florinia, Luna's Tyranitar is just kind of... there. And I don't even remember fighting it, if that says anything.

 

And then we have one with Solaris. There's a reason for this. It's because Tyranitar is an amazing pokemon. It is the reason we see Solaris AND Titania using Excadrill.

 

Moreover, this is NOT the first time we have leaders using the same mons. Serra and Titania both use Alolan Sandlash. So far, no one has shrieked and ragequit over poor artistic team building on Ame's part. Because there's no reason to. Same with Blake originally having a deadly Frosslass. Ice gym leader... Ice pokemon ace. No big deal. Everyone can catch and use what they want. Now, it would be an issue if Solaris' ace was Tyranitar, and Luna's ace was Tyranitar, and they went around with them on their shoulders instead in pokeballs. I'm exaggerating for humor, so please forgive, not trying to be snarky. But point is, Florinia had time to showcase her Cradily. So if Hardy used a Cradily (ignoring that it would be the egg child of Florinia's Cradily and they is family and he even named his Lil Flo)... *Coughs harshly*

 

So if Hardy used Cradily as well... eh. That would be an issue. Same if we fight Saphira and her baddest ace is a Hydreigon. Heck, ANYONE using a Hydreigon would be suspect and having us foaming at the mouth with delirious theorizing. I could go on and on about the other pokemon that fulfill this role, like Nostra, or the Electavire of unethical medical practice, or Seviper, or poor Fern's missing Serperior... Nidoking, etc. It isn't a big deal to see the same mon, especially when it is only one member of a team, a team that generally is not impressing me.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Feng Lei

[Zargerth]

Spoiler

Tyranitar is way more prone to getting SMASH'ed and much weaker to Fighting-type moves than Gigalith, not to mention Gigalith becomes more dangerous should you use Trick Room.

 

In my opinion one glaring issue in HAXdy's team is the poor use of Telluric Seeds: Lycanroc, which is not a bulky mon by any means, is holding one for whatever reason. This defense boost doesn't necessarily even prevent it from getting OHKO'd. Heck, even slapping Focus Sashes on his more frail mons probably would make the fight harder, or give Duskroc Z-crystal (not necessarily Lycanium-Z).

 

Another issue is that he can't deal with his weaknesses very well. Hardy has little to no answers to Steel-types aside from Rock Smash. He can't even use the field-boosted Earthquake very much, and only Rampardos knows a Fire-type move. If you take out both Archeops and Megadactyl, your Fighting-types have a field day. Ground-types need to beware Aqua Tail and getting flinch-haxed.

 

Last but not least problem is that aside from field-boosted Rock Slide and Accelerock (and the occasional Rock Smash), Hardy doesn't utilize his field. There's no Substitute, no Rock Polish and no Stealth Rocks. While hazards aren't that useful in Doubles, they would still do considerable damage. Also like previously mentioned, poor use of Telluric Seed just serves to waste his Duskroc's item slot.

 

Edit: I remember giving some feedback of this fight back during the Alpha testing. I was of the opinion that Archeops is his most expendable mon due to it being just a weaker Megadactyl. I suggested Rock Polish Rhyperior or Minior as alternatives.

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Zargerth

[CrossImpact]

Spoiler

There will be a general solution Ame will have to settle for in the end, as always. Any feedback can help her,
but while it is a thing that there could be mon A or B that would have stopped *your* or a similar team specifically, in the end it is not about stopping *your* team, and it is not about making *you* "taking it seriously" or "impressing" *you*. There've been enough other instances of people simply getting sweeped.
I do apologize for making this with some harsher emphasis, but the big picture needs to be kept in mind.
Nonetheless it is important that both people who had an easy time and people who had a hard time (...) make it known to enable an evaluation.

Only during beta testing and before is an openly accessible textfile available in the game folder into which the AI outputs its scoring - but that is moreso the case to identify obvious bugs, severe unwanted cases or inactions. The AI probably had horrible values for trying to take out Ferrothorn in particular due to its resistance. I was unable to see Hardy's possible coverage, but Fire is probably not among it at all. Even with that, Ferrothorn is admirably tanky, even more so physically, which is Hardy's thing, if I am not mistaken.

Now, leaders *should* fulfill the impressive part to a certain extent for many people, I feel. Especially when first encountering them - as you can start reacting quite well after an initial loss, and most of the time can round it out the third time if something still doesn't work. But we all know better - it's tough to achieve, especially since mono-type leaders give you the chance to prepare thoroughly, which depending on their exact team, might still fail even if you raise a team with a couple members that have a considerable type advantage by themselves.

I brought up Tyranitar, and any other of the points (of which a real focus should be the AI-usage of items; that is simply still a mess in terms of score values for now due to an error or two having naturally been made during coding it), moreso to present a clearer look at why things might have been made the way they are (for now).
I am well aware there are mons used by more than one significant opponent, it is not the focal point of what I wanted to express, just a possible factor.

Another important point, the feedback size before community is considerably small.
While it does entail some people that (I think) pretty much know what they are doing, the broader picture unfolds earliest after community release only.

 

[Paperblade]

Spoiler

Hardy has Fire coverage on Rampardos, but since it has a Choice Scarf and Rock Slide is so powerful in this fight it's unlikely you'll ever see it unless you have like two rock resists out when he sends it in

 

Hardy not having setup moves like Substitute/Rock Polish/Stealth Rock overall raises the difficulty. Rock is a pretty bad defensive type so his Sub would either just be instantly broken or you'd spend that free turn doing something even more broken (setting up/changing the field/etc.). Rock Polish/Stealth Rock are even worse because you could just KO the mon with your pick of a super effective Fighting/Ground/Water/Grass/Steel move. Every time I've faced Hardy (I've done it with about 5-6 different teams at this point) the problem I've always asked myself is: His pokemon are much faster than mine and double Rock Slide will KO pretty much anything but a bulky resist (who might still flinch anyway), how do I stop that? Giving me free turns would make that a nonissue in a majority of cases and trivialize the fight.

 

Hyper Offense is the only way to make monorock a real threat at this point in the game imo and his team is fast+strong enough to make it work. I'm not sure if replacing a mon with Tyranitar would improve it much--ttar is very similar to Gigalith who works on the team as a very bulky, difficult to OHKO threat that will truck even Rock resists with banded Rock Slide, in contrast to the rest of the team which is quite frail but extremely fast. Honestly the biggest plus would be to have a second sand setter in the event you change it... Maybe replace Rampardos with a Tyranitar? Tyranitar could run the exact same moves+item and would have about the same speed, but be a bit bulkier and support the team more in exchange for less power and a greater weakness to Fighting (not like Rampardos was surviving a hit anyway though)

 

The encounter is somewhat one dimensional but I think that's fine. Having different encounters that require different tactics to beat them makes the game more dynamic and fun. Hardy asks you if you can withstand a double battle against a high offense type that runs a powerful AoE move, sort of like Charlotte but even more all in. Other encounters in the episode asks if you have the longevity for a longer battle, while another asks you if you can handle a more traditional battle against an evenly matched foe with almost no gimmicks.

 

[HUEnd]

Spoiler

I'll be very short about this:

Honestly, at this point of the game, with all mons avaiable, it's pretty difficult to make the nearly impossible battles that we all would "like" (a.k.a hate, suffer and eventually, due hax, win and brag about it) outside of just overleveling the leader's mons. I found Hardy's battling style very creative and I enjoyed the battle a lot for its creativity and not due its difficulty, specially because I just deleted it with Swift Swim Omastar.

 

[rayyan]

Spoiler

I kind of agree about hardy being a pushover. The battle turns one sided with a swift swimmer who just needs to surf his way through. In my case a ludicolo after vapereon set up rain dance. Ludicolo just surf killed his aerodactyl and vapereon kept water absorbing. but otherwise rock types aren't a real issue with poor sp defence. Plus it would be difficult for frail teams to move far without any strategy as when his moves do connect they can do lots of damage so it doesn't seem completely useless. The problem is when you bring a mon with bulk and status while having resistance to rock there isn't much his rock types can do.

 

[DemICE]

Spoiler

 

Hardy is better with this team than would have been with most others. Rock is just that hard for the AI to offer a good battle.

 

It seems I'm the only one who has no problem with the 2 lycans. First of all they fill different niches. Sand rush Daywolf is the only option that can outspeed and KO excadrill with CH.band, otherwise it just wrecks house unchecked. 

Meanwhile Dusk is the final fast hard hitter, that can even ohko frail attackers with doubly-field-boosted tough claws accelrock. They are essentially 2 different pokemon and comparing them is wrong.

 

Archeops is also different from aerodactyl, and even if you wanted to have 2 aeros, only one would be mega. Therefore I also support this bird. Not only it hits harder than even mega aero, but flying gem acrobatics is also a nuke that aero doesnt have. 

 

Adding slow rock mons like ttar and rhyperior is also a no-no for this kind of strategy, since they would just end up outspeed and KOd by x4 weaknesses. A pokemon needs to synergize with the teams strategy. You dont just add it because it is individually good.

 

 

[Lucky98]

Spoiler

The way I see it, the difficulty of any gym leader in Reborn depends entirely on your team composition and the type of playstyle you like to use. For example, there are times when a Hyper Offensive team will have a harder time than a more Bulky, Set Up Type of Team. Personally, I ended up using Revives on Hardy because he kept outspeeding and flinching me.

 

[Wheel]

Spoiler

Hardy, to me, felt like a weaker version of Charlotte. Same general hyper offense strategy, but trading a lot of the raw power that Charlotte brought for even higher speed tiers. Add in being completely locked to physical attacks, less coverage moves, mono-rock being fairly limited, and the player having access to better/more teams at this point in the game and Hardy feels really underwhelming. I pretty much run a hyper offense team myself, but it was really easy to wait out the 5 turns of sand even without items (detect stall plus a couple intimidates) and then clean up, even though my team was basically the type that Hardy is intended to beat.

 

I actually quite like Hardy's team as it does a good job of flipping the standard for rock type gyms, although I think a couple of the items are slightly suspect. I can't see any reason why neither lycanroc (especially the dusk form which is supposed to be the ace) has a life orb.  A z-move would change things as well.

 

I think the real problem is that the field just doesn't help Hardy enough. Off the top of my head, maybe change the field effect so that sand is guaranteed 8 turns on the field and can't be overwritten by other weather effects. This would pretty much force adaptation for pure offence teams. If you wanted to take it a step or two further (or in a different direction) after that, add more stomping tantrum/earth power coverage and give those field effect boosts as well. It's a real shame that for all the smack Hardy talks about steel types, he gets completely crushed by them and adding some extra coverage moves could help change that.

 

[HakuryuYukio]

Spoiler

There's also this one sentence that he says before the battle: There's a reason i am higher ranked then my sister.

 

I gotta ask: How did this guy managed to be ranked higher then likes of his sister and Amaria ?

 

Titania and Amaria were much more of a challenge. And they had the better Type.

 

And it's not only that, we also have to talk about his character in the story.

When we reach Agate City for the first time, Terra hit him so hard, that he flew all the way to fiore mansion.

In Ametrine Mountain, he fails to do anything against the giant ice mountain that blocks the path to Ametrine City.

 

Then in this Episode, right as we enter the meteor base, the supposive second strongest Leader of the Region get's put to sleep, while we have to do all the work.

And then when it was time to fight team meteor in agate, who beat Solaris ? Who was pretty much responsible for him getting his city back ? Oh yeah... us (the player).

 

Meanwhile Tania... she slaughters Meteor Goons left and right, and helps us invading Meteor Nests (like the Water Treatment Center).

 

Hardy, to me was one of the most insignificant gym leaders in the game. He adds nothing to the plot.

At least all the other Leaders helped us at some point (Not counting Terra because she's with Team Meteor)

 

Julia: Helped us in the fiore mansion and the old factory in the peridot ward.

Florinia: also helped us in the fiore mansion and the old factory.

Shelly: Well she pretty much traveled with us through the entire region. And she helped us at Ametrine Mountain.

Shade: Pretty much guided us on our adventure, and in this episode, saved us from the black hole.

Aya: Helped us in the Cave, that's in Route 3. She also fought alongside us against Aster and Eclipse.

Kiki: She sacrificed herself to save us, Victoria and the rest of the academy.

Serra: Came to save us in E18.

Noel: translates for us, if we didn't understand Anna:)

Radomus: He helped us out against El and his little Cult. And in this Episode he was there with Serra to save us.

Luna: Sacrificed herself for us, and showed us the way out of the void.

Samson: Came to Agate City and stalled out Team Meteor. Oh, and he trapped Terra in her Glitch World.

Charlotte: Helped us in the Orphanage, and deceived the Meteor's in Calcenon, to save Aya's Life.

Ciel: Came to Agate alongside Samson. And thanks to her badge, we can finally use fly (NO MORE WALKING).

Adrienn: Played a Major Role in the Restoration of Reborn City and invaded the Meteor Devon Corp with us.

Titania: i already talked about her

Amaria: Invaded the hidden Meteor Base in Peridot Ward with us.

Saphira: Pretty much the same as Titania, slaughtering Meteor Goons, left and right, except that she uses Dragonite instead of Aegislash.

 

 

[Mudcrab]

1 hour ago, HakuryuYukio said:

  Hide contents

There's also this one sentence that he says before the battle: There's a reason i am higher ranked then my sister.

 

I gotta ask: How did this guy managed to be ranked higher then likes of his sister and Amaria ?

 

Titania and Amaria were much more of a challenge. And they had the better Type.

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Actually pretty simple.

He has a flinch team.

So he got REALLY flipping lucky with flinches.

Unless the Gym leader choosing process is done by some other method than putting leader against leader.

 

As for story significance. He's a comic relief character / hot head teen warrior and his purpose is to get the player moving to where ever they need to go. Then become useless. Kinda like what happens to Laura. She's elite 4 but has not had a significant battle yet due to usually getting knocked out whenever trouble raises its head.

 

Also I prefer him to Titania. Mostly for the whole murder hapless mooks and causing acute PTSD on the survivors that rather makes me loathe Titania. There's no reason we can't act civilised, the mooks let us go through if we just beat them.

 

On topic: Just went to see what Hardy can do without me prepping like usual. Mega Lopunny and Mach "Daddy" Champ absolutely obliterate like half his team. The other half died to a bloody aggron of all things. Changing the weather on Hardy is way too easy. I feel that Aerodactyl should get Tailwind to make sure his mons go first. That'd make the first 3 turns harder. Another small thing would be to change Rampardos into an Onix with Sandstorm so Hardy can recast his weather.

 

Or not and just keep him as is. I actually enjoyed a "breather" gym leader for once.

 

[CrossImpact]

Spoiler

the ranking of the gym leaders was decided before the game was even made - due to their tier and rank during the old days of the actual online league, measured not by leader vs leader, but if I understood correctly, how successful they were against challengers.
with his proper strategy set up and used by a human brain, according to Ame, Hardy was a frickin' menace to everyone. and yes, flinch.

@Mudcrab

[Mudcrab]

7 hours ago, CrossImpact said:

  Hide contents

the ranking of the gym leaders was decided before the game was even made - due to their tier and rank during the old days of the actual online league, measured not by leader vs leader, but if I understood correctly, how successful they were against challengers.
with his proper strategy set up and used by a human brain, according to Ame, Hardy was a frickin' menace to everyone. and yes, flinch.

@Mudcrab

Spoiler

Oh how the mighty have fallen?

Still that's not a story reason for why he's higher than leaders with clear type advantages over him.

 

[CrossImpact]

9 minutes ago, Mudcrab said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Oh how the mighty have fallen?

Still that's not a story reason for why he's higher than leaders with clear type advantages over him.

 

Spoiler

that argument really does not bring you anywhere, there'll always be leaders above others despite having a type disadvantage no matter how you spin the wheel, and that's absolutely not how this game rolls.

I'm not sure if you are aware then that the character and backstories of ingame leaders are usually a combination of
- the real-life events of at least one person who was playing that leader in the online league (talking about 2012 and before I think)
- the roleplay for the leader which was thought up by Ame at the time (you ever wonder why leaders have such distinct personalities like they could fit into a show?)

being mad about Hardy feeling weak to some people (which is the case for any leader), when there is no chance to replicate his triple battle trick room shenanigans which made him a more difficult opponent than the ones you would so dearly wish to be above him, is both understandable and completely pointless. like, not pointless as in feedback is pointless, but it's pointless wanting to deny him the spot he has.
he the heck earned it, mate.

you say there is no story reason? why, wake up, the online league and its people *is* the story.

 

[Azeria]

45 minutes ago, Mudcrab said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Oh how the mighty have fallen?

Still that's not a story reason for why he's higher than leaders with clear type advantages over him.

 

Spoiler

Normal is one of the best Monotypes, Noel is only in the middle of the leader rankings.

Water is arguably the strongest Monotype, Amaria is arguably one of the easiest and most joked about bosses in the entire game.

 

Frankly I found the Hardy fight to be just fine. I made a few suggestions to Ame coverage wise and they seem to have gone through. It's mono rock, realistically there's not much that's going to be able to provide an interesting challenge at this point. I'm glad that they stayed faithful to Hardy's League Strat and kept his 'fast overwhelming Rock Slide spam' and simply switched around the context of it. 

I do agree that the use of the Telluric Seed on his final Lycanroc instead of Gigalith is quite strange. Gigalith with the added bulk and being able to dodge would be making more of an impact than Lycanroc, the final Pokemon would. Lycanroc would prefer the Life orb to straight up just clean up everything left.

 

 

-

 

Frankly this whole "New leader is soo easy wtf" issue is an ongoing thing since E16 and it's due to a few factors;

 

- Increased Pokemon availability

- Increased item availability

- Larger wait times resulting in people adequately preparing for everything

- Seeds

 

An excellent example of all of this is Amaria, the once dreaded water leader. A strong type, an excellent set of fields. Everyone waited to see just what she'd bring to the table...and wait what it's over already? I had exactly that feeling of utter disappointment and reflecting on it, expectations shouldn't be too high. Expect a good, fun boss fight with an interesting gimmick and you'll be satisfied. Frankly I found Amaria much worse because she had no reason to be as easy as she was, whereas Hardy can at least fall back on having a shitty type.

 

[Mudcrab]

58 minutes ago, Azeria said:

  Hide contents

Normal is one of the best Monotypes, Noel is only in the middle of the leader rankings.

Water is arguably the strongest Monotype, Amaria is arguably one of the easiest and most joked about bosses in the entire game.

 

Frankly I found the Hardy fight to be just fine. I made a few suggestions to Ame coverage wise and they seem to have gone through. It's mono rock, realistically there's not much that's going to be able to provide an interesting challenge at this point. I'm glad that they stayed faithful to Hardy's League Strat and kept his 'fast overwhelming Rock Slide spam' and simply switched around the context of it. 

I do agree that the use of the Telluric Seed on his final Lycanroc instead of Gigalith is quite strange. Gigalith with the added bulk and being able to dodge would be making more of an impact than Lycanroc, the final Pokemon would. Lycanroc would prefer the Life orb to straight up just clean up everything left.

 

 

-

 

Frankly this whole "New leader is soo easy wtf" issue is an ongoing thing since E16 and it's due to a few factors;

 

- Increased Pokemon availability

- Increased item availability

- Larger wait times resulting in people adequately preparing for everything

- Seeds

 

An excellent example of all of this is Amaria, the once dreaded water leader. A strong type, an excellent set of fields. Everyone waited to see just what she'd bring to the table...and wait what it's over already? I had exactly that feeling of utter disappointment and reflecting on it, expectations shouldn't be too high. Expect a good, fun boss fight with an interesting gimmick and you'll be satisfied. Frankly I found Amaria much worse because she had no reason to be as easy as she was, whereas Hardy can at least fall back on having a shitty type.

 

Spoiler

Yup you speak the truth. We are starting to gather lots of tools to wrench our problems out. Noel for me was pretty hard when I first played the game and only beat him via shenanigans as you could argue he plays on a field disadvantage when you can corrode it or set it on fire. Which just keeps telling me that Noel could have been on Hardys place but if the game is constrained on the previous online league there should be a record of the league in game as a world building element.  As an example the Gym leader ledger with Euphies name in it. Make a list with everyones name and give a reason why they got ranked where they got ranked. Am not a fan of the whole "Gotta read the book outside the game to know what, who , when , where, why" because it takes you out of the game.

 

[CrossImpact]

Spoiler

Yeaaah but you kinda don't get to decide what's in the game or how its references are handled, even though judging by your tone, you would enjoy that more.
And frankly, "who what when where why", what an overstatement, given that the order of the leaders is one of the most easily explained things.
It's not an unreasonable stance wanting to have the strongest leaders with the given AI limitations come last, so it's not like I don't understand ya.
That's fine, but any creation out there won't fulfill your personal preferences at every point.
I'd suspect that for every person who had an easy time and is not satisfied, there's 100 folks that don't complain while experiencing the same, and 100 folks that don't complain experiencing the opposite.

If you don't wanna know more about backgrounds, that's just as fair.
Not like you'd have to in order to dive into the world and characters, if that's your thing, but then it's also kinda moot to come and complain this way. The structure is set.
Not saying that the playing experience of people who do not dig further should be less enjoyable by any means, and like, sorry Hardy didn't do it for ya.
But people waltzing in with signifcantly advantageous Pokémon against an AI will, in many cases, probably not give you the experience you seem to long for once you have unlocked the good stuff.
Same as in any broad-audience commercial strategy game including vs. AI. After a usually rough(er) early game, you'll have developed the possibilities to quickly use effective counter strategies.
Mostly that's handled by giving the AI other bonuses (that often appear OP to the player if taken at face value), like hidden starting resources, one-sided combat bonuses, or sheerly outnumbering the player.
Now, the whole outnumbering doesn't go so well in Pokémon, usually the player even outnumbers official leaders and bosses greatly.
So, what should be the norm for a challenge (leaders fielding able full teams), for a milestone in a game (getting a badge), is perceived as a challenge instead of the norm, and if the challenge turns out to be easy in one's case, that means disappointment. Understandable.

Comparison: You know what Gamefreak seems to do? They straightout give their AI less moves to work with. Look at this, for instance: <https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Hau#Sixth_battle>
This is a complete joke, but because Hau's Pokémon are at a very good level at the time of that battle and the Raichu can sweep, it'll leave the average player with a fainted mon or two or three, or none, depending on what they happen to have.

The "OP bonuses", aka Field Effects, are given to the leader initially, and the player has to either abuse them too or destroy that advantage with the potential of even turning it around.
This is a realllly great concept here if you ask me, and is especially challenging to folks that have never bothered to go at least a little more intricate on Pokémon.
Fighting a leader face to face on their field, not altering it, should probably result in a highly disadvantageous, but at least a roughly even matchup, depending on how prepared (type advantage, likewise boosted moves) you arrive. And this will be the case for many many many many many players out there.
Now, what would be even is probably advantageous to the player, since you're not a code. Unless we in the Matrix. But then that would make you superior code.
And what is advantageous turns into highly advantageous. You get the drift.

Improving the AI has been a focus, however, I don't think there's any need to point out what kind of task it would theoretically make to get it up to a completely competitive level.

 

[Angelkitsune]

Spoiler

 

Imagine that Ame got fed up deciding what Pokemon each Gym Leaders should have and just let the IRL gym leaders decide it on their own including held items, would we get rekt or would the AI messed it up? because I think if Hardy's gym battle is hard or easy is depending on experience or the person playing. From my experience Pokemon Reborn is the first Pokemon fan game that i have played, I choose this game because it was known for its difficulty,the first time i played this  i was bad at competitive battle heck I don't even know what is EVs and IVs so yeah...I was very bad,so bad that i lost to Julia a couple of times,and she is only the first gym.

 

After that,i fight Florina and lost a couple of times...again,then Corey's Crobat keep crippling me,Shelly murdered me,Shade can have my soul with those amount of losses I have suffered,Kiki is easy I only lost to her like 6 times,aand then Aya just basically step on me becuz holy crap I lost SO HARD that I have to change my team a couple of times to beat her definitely feels good. and EP17 Aya has been considered to be nerfed very hard ,and then Serra wipe the floor with me until my Blaziken finally landed that Blaze kick on her Froslass,Noel's Porygon Z keep killing me,I almost RAGEQUIT at Radomus, Luna is okay i just lost 13 times to her,Samson is harder than Kiki,Charlotte is like fighting Aya all over again almost . I almost got RAWRED by Terra thank god for Alakazam and A-Ninetales.Ciel is easiest to me just lost 3 times.that was when i noticed that the Gym is getting easier when I win against Adriean on my first try,then only beat Titania on my second try,lost to Amaria 2 times then decided to OHKO all her pokemon with my Gardevoir i just use stat increasing item don't judge me!,and finally Hardy on my first try.

 

The only reason I'm not fu*king broke is because of soft-resetting 

 

Tl;dr as I keep playing I get better at playing this game when i fight Hardy I use super effective pokemon,read the field effects,give them appropriate items and IV breed/EV train them and a dash of luck .Maybe you think he is easy because you are just really good.If you ask me Hardy's fight is easy yes,but at least the battle is fun He almost beat me because flinch HAX.  who knows maybe i can beat Saphira on my first try probably not (lll￢ω￢)

 

I WILL DEFINITELY NOT ADMIT THAT I HAVE TROUBLE WITH FERN WEED. ヽ(゜▽゜　)－C<(/;◇;)/~

 

that is just my opinion i dunno about you guys,what do you think?

Edited August 15, 2018 by Angelkitsune

[enu]

Spoiler

I actually wanted to write a similar topic on my own but when I wrote it it felt like mindless rant so I didn't. But since the topic is here anyway let me add my thoughs.

 

For me Hardy was not easy at all (eeveelutions only + no potions/revives).

 

However he most certainly was the most disappointing gym leader of all time.

 

In all my tries I never saw him use anything but Rock Slide. Not even once. Combined with his fast mons and flinch it's certainly powerful strategy but waaaay too simple for a Reborn leader. I always expect an epic battle in Reborn Gym and sadly Hardy completely and utterly failed.

 

I won't write any suggestions here since I'm no rock-type expert and other people already shared some good tips.

 

I don't necessarily care if he is easier than other leaders because it's late game and his type is weak (hello Adrienn) but he should at least do something else than spamming one move all the time.

 

(The part below is pure rant. Feel free to skip it.)

 

To top it all he talks about being higher ranked than Titania. That honestly doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Not only he is much weaker than her but his strategy is something a kid would use. It's unbefitting of a gym leader, let alone a high-ranking Reborn one. Ame should have fired him on the spot a long time ago.

 

Honestly I feel like throwing the badge back in his face as a sign of total disrespect and challenging who-ever-is-the-rock-leader-reserve instead.