E18 Gym Battle Difficulty

[CrossImpact]

Spoiler

"(I'm not the best player, but)
the fight definitely needs this, this and that,

and how people with multiple years of experience in competitive play and game development make such bad decisions is completely beyond me,
it would be much better if they implement MY IDEA that is founded on (I'm not the best player, but) little knowledge of historical, current, and game meta,
MY IDEA would have made it much harder for ME to win, it was just way too easy with my Mega Aggron, and btw Shuckle would literally destroy me,
and all these very strong 50-80 base speed Rock-types would be way better in a team and battle conceptualized around 110+,
and I also absolutely fail to take into account any middleground that has to be found for a broad playerbase with given AI limitations."

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

 

[DevR]

10 hours ago, Commander said:

Spoiler

I get what people are saying about Kabutops but you are ignoring a very big BUT. But what if someone doesn't use Rain Dance strategy given how limited it is. Now you have a slowish rock type just waiting to be slaughtered. Kabutops is not that fast, frail, and only has an okay damage output. It's just a worse Lycanroc at that point. You can throw arguments left and right but it adds nothing to the table and just adds the same role as Lycanroc but worse.

 

Spoiler

Not really true. Kabutops gets the stab coverage that allows it to do a lot more to ground / steel types (even outside of rain), which facilitates Rock Slide spam for the rest of his team. Lycanroc cannot do that (since it's currently banded) unless it gets another item, even after which it can't do anything to ground types.

 

Also, with a base 115 attack, Kabutops hits just as hard as a Lycanroc (assuming both have equivalent items), while trading speed (outside of rain) for coverage. You're free to disagree with the suggestion, but saying that it adds nothing isn't true.

   

5 hours ago, CrossImpact said:

"(I'm not the best player, but)
the fight definitely needs this, this and that,

and how people with multiple years of experience in competitive play and game development make such bad decisions is completely beyond me,
it would be much better if they implement MY IDEA that is founded on (I'm not the best player, but) little knowledge of historical, current, and game meta,
MY IDEA would have made it much harder for ME to win, it was just way too easy with my Mega Aggron, and btw Shuckle would literally destroy me,
and all these very strong 50-80 base speed Rock-types would be way better in a team and battle conceptualized around 110+,
and I also absolutely fail to take into account any middleground that has to be found for a broad playerbase with given AI limitations."

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Spoiler

Leaving aside the tone of that comment, I'll just say this: no fight can satisfy everyone. Obviously, there are type and AI limitations that can't be overcome, and that's perfectly fine.

 

Even so, sometimes other people can stumble upon ideas that are worth considering, even if they aren't implemented (once again, perfectly fine). Sure, anyone going against Hardy with Mega-Aggron or other fat steels will have a very easy time and that's no surprise. And yet, one or two tweaks mentioned in this thread would make those matchups better for Hardy. He'll still get beaten by them, but he'd have a better chance (not saying every idea is good, but not all are worthless either).

 

If you think this is a waste of time, then that's that. But painting everyone who thinks otherwise as uninformed, entitled people isn't accurate*. Maybe that wasn't your intention (in that case my bad), but it sure does look like it.

 

*fwiw I've got a fair bit of experience in both competitive and game development.

[CrossImpact]

1 hour ago, DevR said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Not really true. Kabutops gets the stab coverage that allows it to do a lot more to ground / steel types (even outside of rain), which facilitates Rock Slide spam for the rest of his team. Lycanroc cannot do that (since it's currently banded) unless it gets another item, even after which it can't do anything to ground types.

 

Also, with a base 115 attack, Kabutops hits just as hard as a Lycanroc (assuming both have equivalent items), while trading speed (outside of rain) for coverage. You're free to disagree with the suggestion, but saying that it adds nothing isn't true.

   

 

  Hide contents

Leaving aside the tone of that comment, I'll just say this: no fight can satisfy everyone. Obviously, there are type and AI limitations that can't be overcome, and that's perfectly fine.

 

Even so, sometimes other people can stumble upon ideas that are worth considering, even if they aren't implemented (once again, perfectly fine). Sure, anyone going against Hardy with Mega-Aggron or other fat steels will have a very easy time and that's no surprise. And yet, one or two tweaks mentioned in this thread would make those matchups better for Hardy. He'll still get beaten by them, but he'd have a better chance (not saying every idea is good, but not all are worthless either).

 

If you think this is a waste of time, then that's that. But painting everyone who thinks otherwise as uninformed, entitled people isn't accurate*. Maybe that wasn't your intention (in that case my bad), but it sure does look like it.

 

*fwiw I've got a fair bit of experience in both competitive and game development.

Spoiler

The tone is not to be left aside, and exactly what suits "CHANGE THIZ!!!11" people. Aka *names half-random mon (and maybe, just maybe, how it is good elsewhere)* among other things.
Gotta bite the bullet.
At that kind of behaviour and nothing else was this directed, and therefore "painting everyone who thinks otherwise" doesn't even apply. Idek what you in specific wrote.
Not that there was an abundance of that in here either, but it exists, and needs to not exist.

I am way within the "too uninformed" part, that's why you don't see me runnin' around suggesting other stuff.
I do not judge bringing forth ideas, but how they are presented, and how little they tend to entertain all the necessary variables.

Useful discussion would have to take into account the interaction with a considerable amount of things, as Pokémon offers a ton of these in Mons, Moves, Abilities and Items.
What is the new proposal better at? But wait, what is it weaker to? Does it still compliment the rest of the strategy?
Does it crowd out too many options an average player is able to find or willing to invest time into while still enjoying the game? Does it enable an overall too easy new strategy?

Not too much of that out there, is there now?
In the light of the necessary knowledge, yes, most people will be too uninformed. And we're talking way over 95% here. Way over.
It is the same everywhere in games and life, denying that is impossible.

So what about the 95%+? Should they just not say anything ever? No, that's not the point, as should be clear from deduction of what I wrote a few lines higher up.
Induce discussion, exchange ideas, this is what a forum is for!
But you should know the heck your situation, and you don't get to "how/why did the -insert actually knowledgeable person of whatever field- (not) ??!?!?" or "it definitely needs that!!!".
Yeah, great, I like how phrases like that show someone actually thinks that their casual line of thought is just better.
(Not like there's someone who actually spends days and nights in cooperation with people they respect to actually know their stuff on figuring it out, am I right?)
Which, funnily, is exactly what this thread stems from (but by no means does everyone leaving their thoughts in here do that).

 

[Commander]

Oh bloody hell. @CrossImpact just has taken a book from my sass. Doesn't mean too much out of it but since we are still on that topic.

 

Spoiler

You don't just become great at team designing because you are good at competitive. In fact I would argue it hurts more than helps your understanding. Team designing is all about synergy and throwing in one mon that breaks the synergy purely to counter a single tactic and only good for that can break a fight. That's what this Kabutops you all keep trying to throw is. It's not a good option and I guess I should explain further:

 

First x4 weaknesses are a sin and easy to exploit. It's why Ciel is viewed as a joke or top tier stuff like Scizor and Glisscor aren't very threatening. Second it's special defence is so weak even with sand it will die to any special attack and will die to any swift swimmer which is the purpose of this counter in the first place. Third it is slow compared to Lycanroc which can focus on its offensive power since it has an insane speed while Kabutops needs to focus on raising its speed so Lycanroc would have at least 1.5x more attack over Kabutops. 1.65x technically. Funny enough it'd only take me like half an hour to build and make a video just to display exactly what I'm saying. I guess it would be an okay Ramparados substitute but Lycanroc works way too well for Hardy.

 

I think the biggest thing people aren't understanding is that Ame cares more about displaying the gimmicks than the difficulty itself in most fights. Hardy is meant to be a flinch machine and he does that extraordinary well. Most people won't have a good solution walking into it right away so if you curbstomped him, good for you. I'm on the half that really, really struggled.

 

[DevR]

4 hours ago, Commander said:

Oh bloody hell. @CrossImpact just has taken a book from my sass. Doesn't mean too much out of it but since we are still on that topic.

 

  Hide contents

You don't just become great at team designing because you are good at competitive. In fact I would argue it hurts more than helps your understanding. Team designing is all about synergy and throwing in one mon that breaks the synergy purely to counter a single tactic and only good for that can break a fight. That's what this Kabutops you all keep trying to throw is. It's not a good option and I guess I should explain further:

 

First x4 weaknesses are a sin and easy to exploit. It's why Ciel is viewed as a joke or top tier stuff like Scizor and Glisscor aren't very threatening. Second it's special defence is so weak even with sand it will die to any special attack and will die to any swift swimmer which is the purpose of this counter in the first place. Third it is slow compared to Lycanroc which can focus on its offensive power since it has an insane speed while Kabutops needs to focus on raising its speed so Lycanroc would have at least 1.5x more attack over Kabutops. 1.65x technically. Funny enough it'd only take me like half an hour to build and make a video just to display exactly what I'm saying. I guess it would be an okay Ramparados substitute but Lycanroc works way too well for Hardy.

  

I think the biggest thing people aren't understanding is that Ame cares more about displaying the gimmicks than the difficulty itself in most fights. Hardy is meant to be a flinch machine and he does that extraordinary well. Most people won't have a good solution walking into it right away so if you curbstomped him, good for you. I'm on the half that really, really struggled.

 

Spoiler

Being good at competitive != being good team at team designing, agreed. But it doesn't necessarily hurt one's ability to build teams in this context, because competitive teambuilders must account for synergy and all kinds of threats to build functional teams (gimmicks aside). 

 

As for Kabutops, it does not break the synergy in Hardy's team. Idk about Ciel, but both the examples you listed (along with many others) are incredible Pokemon that many of their 'rivals' that lack 4x weaknesses. Ergo, just having a 4x weakness does not automatically make a 'mon worse off than relevant competition. Since I was suggesting Kabutops as a replacement for Rampardos, I'll just compare them to illustrate my point. 

 

Kabutops actually has a higher Sp.def (70) than Rampardos (50), while not being weak to water. Sure, it's weaker to grass types, but Hardy's double Rock / Flying types show up at the beginning of the battle (at least they vs me), which, coupled with the lack of free switches in doubles, does not make it as exploitable as you mention. Grass coverage (in the current absence of E-ball) is still a problem, but mostly from a small subset of 'mons that don't resist his rock spam in the first place. 

 

As for synergy, Rampardos doesn't add anything new to Hardy's mono-rock, given his array of fast rock types. On the other hand, Kabutops provides offensive synergy via new coverage (STAB or otherwise) while still having enough speed to contribute to Rock Slide spam outside of Rain. Also, on the point of swift swimmers, Kabutops literally outspeeds all swift swimmers outside of +speed nature Kingdra, none of whom like taking a field-boosted Rock Slide. 

 

I've realised that Hardy relies on flinch hax, which is why something that arguably improves the ease of Rock Slide spam isn't a bad idea. Hardy's fight wasn't easy or hard for me, but I did feel like Rampardos didn't do much in that fight. Anyhow, since E18 is out, there won't be any changes to the fight and that's fine by me. I've presented my point, and that's all I wanted to do. 

 

 

[Commander]

Fine I guess I'll show you some results:

 

Spoiler

Unoptimized team:

Roserade doesn't outspeed and dies

Dies to EQ in one shot

 

Slightly altered EVs for testing (Not max or perfect)

 

With Choice Band is does slightly less than Lycanroc but still outspeeds 169 EV Roserade.

 

Max Speed Roserade:

A very dead Kabutops

 

Swift Swim unoptimized

Kabutops outspeeds 120 Speed EV Kingdra, doesn't KO but lives Kingdra's Surf

 

Max EV Kingdra with Life Orb

Kingdra Outspeeds but barely doesn't KO with Surf...Scald would KO....or I could just have used Specs for easy sweep.

 

So that makes Kabutops really good but this is an argument to replace Lycanroc with Kabutops and...they have the exact same attack power. No really, the exact same. Lycanroc is faster and can deal with all these situations better except swift swim. Scarf Kabutops would outspeed everything but then it'd be way too weak to deal with anything. I will admit I underestimated 80 base speed on an opponent because doubles is weird but it has not solved the issues we all discussed and really doesn't bring anything new to the table. Sure it'd handle swift swimmers but it'd be easy for a swift swim team to counter it when you think about it. One wide guard and it's over.

 

...I would say it's a good replacement for Ramparados though since it has more attack power and still within a good speed range. Not a good Lycanroc replacement as that is a solid Pokemon on Hardy's team.

 

[The Swordsman]

@DevR

Spoiler

You completely ignored the "middleground that has to be found for a broad playerbase" part of CrossImpact's post, instead focusing on the A.I part. This is the reason Ame has made some of the Gym Leader fights easier over the years.  Did anything change in the Public Release that recently came out? If not then Ame agrees that the fight is OK.

 

[DevR]

@Commander

Spoiler

I agree that Kabutops > Lycanroc is a bad idea, which is why I was suggesting Kabutops > Rampardos. Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to post that! Oh and fwiw, if Surf doesn't KO, then how come Scald does? (assuming you're not talking about the burn chance, in which case my bad)

 

@The Swordsman

Spoiler

While I didn't explicitly answer that point, I also didn't ignore it. Some of the suggestions on this thread don't make Hardy more difficult for everyone, but rather they pose a slightly harder challenge to those who came fully prepared . It creates a more uniform difficulty, rather than making the fight unbearable. For e.g. a non-scarfed Kabutops is an easier opponent for unoptimised, casual teams to handle as opposed to scarf Rampardos, whereas it is more challenging to those who specifically bring rain and / or fat steels. 

 

I realise that not everyone likes playing Pokemon for difficult battles, which is why you'll never see me complain about changes like Toxapex > Tentacruel in Aya's battle (E.17). That said, if any of the changes I did suggest jack up the difficulty for everyone (maybe the item swaps?), then I guess those would be ill-advised. As for the E.18 public release, I haven't battled Hardy yet, but I'll accept it the way it is.

 

[Zargerth]

@DevR Spoilers just in case:

 

Spoiler

AoE moves like Surf or Earthquake are slightly weakened in Doubles, 25% to be exact. This would make Scald stronger than Surf.

 

[DevR]

1 hour ago, Zargerth said:

@DevR Spoilers just in case:

 

  Hide contents

AoE moves like Surf or Earthquake are slightly weakened in Doubles, 25% to be exact. This would make Scald stronger than Surf.

 

Spoiler

Derp, I somehow always end up forgetting about spread damage. Thank you!

 

[Shadowsusanoo]

• Spoiler

  Well for me he was the weakest Reborn Leader by a very very large margin.  But like others said it was also partially due to my own team.

  I had a bullet punch mettagross.

  Bullet punch machamp.

  Smart strike + Sandrush Excadrill. LOL

  That was all it took to beat him. only 3 pokemons.

  I OHKOed 4 of his mons including mega aerodactyl and only one of my mons fainted that being machamp.

  just hope that the last leader  will give us a fight more difficult than the onw we had to do against Cain,etc ie 3 battles continuously .Now that was an awesome battle.

   

[Sayaman]

 

Spoiler

Partially lmao. Yeah with teams like that i get why i was in the minority that actually had some decent trouble against him.