Recommended the game for a friend and then...

[Jiok]

Hi!
Ive been playing pokemon reborn since episode 8 and I've been off and on between updates. Last week I wanted to come back to it seeing that episode 18 has been released.
I made a new game because my old save was like from ep15 and I wanted to experience the changes with a fresh beginning.

But, while revisiting the game, I also thought id introduce the game to a friend (who liked pokemon but didn't play since gen5). I thought it would be fun to talk about the game while we both do our playthroughs. Oh~ how wrong was I 

It was then, I remembered that Reborn wasn't like any other casual Pokemon games and that you can't just brute force your way through the game like the official games.

At, first he really liked the design of the game and also that you could start with any starter that you wanted. I could tell he was eager to play the game and try to catch them all.

But at some point, he was met with a wall. He was surprised to not find a lot of "good" pokemon in the early stage of the game. He seemed not knowing what to do when faced with an enemy that beat him more than once. I could sense that He felt frustrated with the game by the way he reacted when I told he couldn't grind just one pokemon to a really high level and wait to find "better pokemon" and that He had to find a strategy to win battles instead.

My friend kept getting angry with it and struggling to fight the bosses (AKA Pulses) and the gym leaders. I have never seen him in such distress without just giving up.
His first good challenge was Corey but his first real struggle was Shelly.
At first, he thought that his team was too weak (being around lvl 30s) so he leveled them the farthest he could to 35 but that wasn't still enough. About an afternoon of hearing his frustrations, I told him to copy his save and give it to me.
I noticed that he had a really good team and that it didn't seem to be as bad as he told me.
I then proceeded to beat Shelly with his team and showed him the end of the fight. I honestly just wanted to show him that he could do it and that it wasn't impossible like he claimed.
After that, he tried to beat her but again without success and called it for the night.

I don't know if that somewhat motivated him or made him more angry with the game but the next day he told me he had beat her.

I thought he hated the game but he didn't quit yet and is currently trying to beat Shade (similar struggle and feelings to the ones he showed with Shelly)



Any thoughts on how I could help him appreciate the game as I do? or at least any tips I should give him? 
I feel that his struggle seem meaningless if he isn't enjoying the game.

Thanks~
Jiok

ps: he recently discovered "wonder trading" and started trying to get better pokemon that way (doesn't feel right to me but I guess its somewhat a game mechanic)


Update: He was able to beat Shade and he is now onto Kiki
 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Jiok

[PokeFailure]

*Insert git gud meme here* 

 

As someone who struggled with Reborn early and realized "oh I have to actually put effort into this" you have to figure out how to cheese the field effects and figure out a way to cheese the battles. There are PLENTY of broken mechanics if you know how to do it, I'd say letting him discover them on his own will work the best. I mean Wonder Trading is basically like gambling and that's a great way to cheese through the game. 

 

If it ever gets to a point where he isn't enjoying the game, there's always that level 100 Legendary you could "Acquire" through the black market.

[Commander]

There has been only one gym leader fight in all of my playthroughs for the first time fighting a gym leader that didn't take me like at least 4 attempts (even now as the creator of the unofficial hard mode of Reborn) and that is the one everyone struggled with which is Charlotte. I can't remember if I beat Shade the first time I fought him or not but it was very close. I can also tell you that I was A LOT worse at Pokemon 5 years ago and most RPGs compared to how I am now. It's really just experience which over time you gain more and more and it takes less effort to figure stuff out.

 

I can't tell you what to do, but I can at least give suggestions of what not to do. Clearly you are the superior player given your prior knowledge to the game and the fact you probably have more experience. Don't ever show him up or really brag about how easy a leader is. I know it's really hard to not gloat at your achievements but sometimes it just adds frustration to the other person hitting walls again and again. Maybe share experiences from your first playthrough where you got absolutely slaughtered. If he really is just not liking the game, maybe try to find a different interest. Tales of Games are really fun to get into with a friend because they can hop right in and join the fray if you're together.

 

It might seem weird saying for a guy who designs difficulty in Pokemon to say quit, but I really get it. It's part of the reason I don't play much Pokemon because the games do get grindy due to their unfortunate nature and design. If you get stuck, it can be more than just a simple grind for 20 minutes as it can even take 3-4 hours just to progress through one fight. It adds up and you are just miserable. There's plenty of other games you and your friend can bond over and both get a lot of enjoyment out of. So if this doesn't work out, try something else.

[Seal]

I think falling flat on your face the first time you reach a difficult battle is part of the appeal of this game. It encourages me to plan ahead, use Pokemon with moves I'd never use otherwise and expiriment with field-effects.

I'd say just give your friend advice on how to defeat the current boss he's facing (for example using Scrafty for Shade).

[Lord Drakyle]

Well i'm not sure how you can help your friend, they have to realize there is more than just brute force in this game and utilize the mechanics offered to them to turn the tables in their favor or make a strategy that consists of more than just hit it til it dies.

 

He also needs to realize there is a massive amount of 'good' pokemon to be found in Pokemon Reborn if you change your view from what is considered popular or 'good' in the canon games to what will help you out in THIS game and THIS situation, pokemon who can utilize a lot of field effects or have actually got decent stats to their name when you don't ignore them or even take a moment to try them out properly without forsaking them after a few stumbles.

 

I have a feeling their idea of 'good' pokemon is ones that are popular pokemon or stuff that is designed to be a strong pokemon like Gible which if so, they will be waiting a while for those 'good' pokemon he so believes they must have.

[ProjectIceman]

@PokeFailure

*Insert One Does Not Simply Get Gud In Pokemon Reborn Meme Here* XD

 

So there are some things that I don't know about this player, but he seems like a shofu (level up one pokemon and sweep trainers) type lol. Of course you cant do that in this game. The level caps itself stop that. 

 

From the sounds of it, it seems like he is the type who is hyper offensive (or at least that's what it seems like from the post). Let him know that status moves are his friend in this game. Burn attacking Pokemon, Paralyze fast sweepers, and put tanks to sleep. Moves like Leech seed will also be very useful. Also, if you have terrain changing moves, use them if it can cripple the gym leader you are up against.

 

Since this is his first time playing, let him read the field effects and pulse dex data. He doesn't need to memorize everything, but there may be things there that he can learn and utilize for himself.

 

Finally, there is a TM that is useful in every battlefield in Reborn that you get very early: Nature Power. It utilizes the field effect automatically, getting a boost in power or boosting your Pokemon exponentially. A very underused and underappreciated move imo.

 

That's all I got for now without knowing more about his play style. Let him know that what he is essentially doing is playing a Pokemon game and putting it on the highest level of difficulty. And seeing that he jumped into it when the last game he played was gen 5...kudos to him for getting as far as he did. Even some hardcore players cant stand this game lol. And if he ever gets frustrated, let him watch some LPs. Either it will help with strategies or (if he likes watching people suffer, like me :]) it will give him a good laugh.

[LilyX]

8 hours ago, Jiok said:

Hi!
Ive been playing pokemon reborn since episode 8 and I've been off and on between updates. Last week I wanted to come back to it seeing that episode 18 has been released.
I made a new game because my old save was like from ep15 and I wanted to experience the changes with a fresh beginning.

But, while revisiting the game, I also thought id introduce the game to a friend (who liked pokemon but didn't play since gen5). I thought it would be fun to talk about the game while we both do our playthroughs. Oh~ how wrong was I 

It was then, I remembered that Reborn wasn't like any other casual Pokemon games and that you can't just brute force your way through the game like the official games.

At, first he really liked the design of the game and also that you could start with any starter that you wanted. I could tell he was eager to play the game and try to catch them all.

But at some point, he was met with a wall. He was surprised to not find a lot of "good" pokemon in the early stage of the game. He seemed not knowing what to do when faced with an enemy that beat him more than once. I could sense that He felt frustrated with the game by the way he reacted when I told he couldn't grind just one pokemon to a really high level and wait to find "better pokemon" and that He had to find a strategy to win battles instead.

My friend kept getting angry with it and struggling to fight the bosses (AKA Pulses) and the gym leaders. I have never seen him in such distress without just giving up.
His first good challenge was Corey but his first real struggle was Shelly.
At first, he thought that his team was too weak (being around lvl 30s) so he leveled them the farthest he could to 35 but that wasn't still enough. About an afternoon of hearing his frustrations, I told him to copy his save and give it to me.
I noticed that he had a really good team and that it didn't seem to be as bad as he told me.
I then proceeded to beat Shelly with his team and showed him the end of the fight. I honestly just wanted to show him that he could do it and that it wasn't impossible like he claimed.
After that, he tried to beat her but again without success and called it for the night.

I don't know if that somewhat motivated him or made him more angry with the game but the next day he told me he had beat her.

I thought he hated the game but he didn't quit yet and is currently trying to beat Shade (similar struggle and feelings to the ones he showed with Shelly)



Any thoughts on how I could help him appreciate the game as I do? or at least any tips I should give him? 
I feel that his struggle seem meaningless if he isn't enjoying the game.

Thanks~
Jiok

ps: he recently discovered "wonder trading" and started trying to get better pokemon that way (doesn't feel right to me but I guess its somewhat a game mechanic)

 

While for some of us the challenging battles play an important role in why we like Reborn, others don´t enjoy them and would rather focus on the story. And I think it´s important to respect that and to not force our view of the game onto them (I´m not suggesting that´s what you are doing to your friend, I just meant it in a general way). As such I think wonder trading or specifically asking for pokemon here on the website (there are a lot of members eager to help out if your friend is looking to trade for "stronger" pokemon) are wonderful ways to dive into the story without worrying about grinding up your pokemon or thinking of strategies to beat opponents.

Alternatively you could explain to your friend that "good" pokemon not being obtainable early on, is the games way of pushing you to use pokemon you would never use otherwise. I for example always thought of Scrafty as mediocre. Now I love him, because he carried me through half the game.

[kithas]

3 hours ago, LilyX said:

 

While for some of us the challenging battles play an important role in why we like Reborn, others don´t enjoy them and would rather focus on the story. And I think it´s important to respect that and to not force our view of the game onto them (I´m not suggesting that´s what you are doing to your friend, I just meant it in a general way). As such I think wonder trading or specifically asking for pokemon here on the website (there are a lot of members eager to help out if your friend is looking to trade for "stronger" pokemon) are wonderful ways to dive into the story without worrying about grinding up your pokemon or thinking of strategies to beat opponents.

Alternatively you could explain to your friend that "good" pokemon not being obtainable early on, is the games way of pushing you to use pokemon you would never use otherwise. I for example always thought of Scrafty as mediocre. Now I love him, because he carried me through half the game.

There are also lots of mods which can make anyone's way easier and are not specially frown upon or not allowed (as far as I know, at least) 

[LilyX]

42 minutes ago, kithas said:

There are also lots of mods which can make anyone's way easier and are not specially frown upon or not allowed (as far as I know, at least) 

I mean "not allowed" is highly subjective in a game that you don´t play competitively against others, meaning you can basically "allow" stuff and design rules as you please. But yes, I think you are right: most of the mods are very widely accepted and indeed a very good way to change the games difficulty!

 

 

Oh, and one addition @Jiok I think what makes the main battles of Reborn frustrating (to some people) is the "advantage" given to the gym leaders/pulses etc. through field effects (and access to better pokemon in the case of trainer opponents). To turn this from frustation to challenge I think it might be helpful to "spy" a little on the gym leaders (and other important opponents) and look up their team and field effect beforehand. The Reborn Wiki http://pokemon-reborn.wikia.com/wiki/Home is a good resource to do so. I personally don´t use this resource, but my process is quite similar:

1. I start an uninformed battle to gather as much information as possible and look at the field notes

2. I device a strategy with the pokemon available to me that I think might work

3. I test the strategy in a second battle

4. I either win or I lose but gathered new information to adapt my strategy - either way it´s progress and as such it´s not frustrating.

(Should your friend be a friend of science: This is basically the Scientific Method in action)

 

Edit: For some reason in recognizes my text as part of the link and I´m unable to change that...

[Jiok]

10 hours ago, Commander said:

There has been only one gym leader fight in all of my playthroughs for the first time fighting a gym leader that didn't take me like at least 4 attempts (even now as the creator of the unofficial hard mode of Reborn) and that is the one everyone struggled with which is Charlotte. I can't remember if I beat Shade the first time I fought him or not but it was very close. I can also tell you that I was A LOT worse at Pokemon 5 years ago and most RPGs compared to how I am now. It's really just experience which over time you gain more and more and it takes less effort to figure stuff out.

 

I can't tell you what to do, but I can at least give suggestions of what not to do. Clearly you are the superior player given your prior knowledge to the game and the fact you probably have more experience. Don't ever show him up or really brag about how easy a leader is. I know it's really hard to not gloat at your achievements but sometimes it just adds frustration to the other person hitting walls again and again. Maybe share experiences from your first playthrough where you got absolutely slaughtered. If he really is just not liking the game, maybe try to find a different interest. Tales of Games are really fun to get into with a friend because they can hop right in and join the fray if you're together.

1

Thanks for the advice. The reason I'm trying to help him is that he's trying himself. He usually doesn't play games he doesn't like. 
I guess he is used to the grind but not the defeat part. I guess it's up to him if he wants to continue to play (don't want to force him).

 

 

7 hours ago, Lord Drakyle said:

Well i'm not sure how you can help your friend, they have to realize there is more than just brute force in this game and utilize the mechanics offered to them to turn the tables in their favor or make a strategy that consists of more than just hit it til it dies.

 

He also needs to realize there is a massive amount of 'good' pokemon to be found in Pokemon Reborn if you change your view from what is considered popular or 'good' in the canon games to what will help you out in THIS game and THIS situation, pokemon who can utilize a lot of field effects or have actually got decent stats to their name when you don't ignore them or even take a moment to try them out properly without forsaking them after a few stumbles.

 

I have a feeling their idea of 'good' pokemon is ones that are popular pokemon or stuff that is designed to be a strong pokemon like Gible which if so, they will be waiting a while for those 'good' pokemon he so believes they must have.

3

Yeah, he likes to sweep and be very offensive. Its funny you mentioned that. I was planning to give him a Gible to make it easier on him but later decided that maybe that wasn't the best idea. his team is good and he tries to plan things out but I think he just doesn't know much about fields and status effects.


 

6 hours ago, ProjectIceman said:

Since this is his first time playing, let him read the field effects and pulse dex data. He doesn't need to memorize everything, but there may be things there that he can learn and utilize for himself.

 

Finally, there is a TM that is useful in every battlefield in Reborn that you get very early: Nature Power. It utilizes the field effect automatically, getting a boost in power or boosting your Pokemon exponentially. A very underused and underappreciated move imo.

1

Yes I kinda forgot to tell him about the special fields and effects in this game so I can understand why he's confused. 
Thanks for the Nature Power advice even I don't use it a lot but its really good in the fields.

 

 

4 hours ago, LilyX said:

While for some of us the challenging battles play an important role in why we like Reborn, others don´t enjoy them and would rather focus on the story. And I think it´s important to respect that and to not force our view of the game onto them (I´m not suggesting that´s what you are doing to your friend, I just meant it in a general way). As such I think wonder trading or specifically asking for pokemon here on the website (there are a lot of members eager to help out if your friend is looking to trade for "stronger" pokemon) are wonderful ways to dive into the story without worrying about grinding up your pokemon or thinking of strategies to beat opponents.

Alternatively you could explain to your friend that "good" pokemon not being obtainable early on, is the games way of pushing you to use pokemon you would never use otherwise. I for example always thought of Scrafty as mediocre. Now I love him, because he carried me through half the game.

3

Yeah, I realized that if he had to cheese his way out of the game like trading him op pokemon then it would feel cheap. No offense to people that like to cheat in single player games but I just don't see the point.
I don't think he's too much invested in the story but maybe it would help him concentrate on it more if he doesn't struggle in the battles.

 

1 hour ago, LilyX said:

Oh, and one addition @Jiok I think what makes the main battles of Reborn frustrating (to some people) is the "advantage" given to the gym leaders/pulses etc. through field effects (and access to better pokemon in the case of trainer opponents). To turn this from frustation to challenge I think it might be helpful to "spy" a little on the gym leaders (and other important opponents) and look up their team and field effect beforehand. The Reborn Wiki http://pokemon-reborn.wikia.com/wiki/Home is a good resource to do so. I personally don´t use this resource, but my process is quite similar:

1. I start an uninformed battle to gather as much information as possible and look at the field notes

2. I device a strategy with the pokemon available to me that I think might work

3. I test the strategy in a second battle

4. I either win or I lose but gathered new information to adapt my strategy - either way it´s progress and as such it´s not frustrating.

(Should your friend be a friend of science: This is basically the Scientific Method in action)

 

Edit: For some reason in recognizes my text as part of the link and I´m unable to change that...

4

Yes, he looked into the wiki for info already. I think he informs himself fairly well on the pokemon he is facing but doesn't know much about fields, abilities, status effects.

[Juice]

prior to Ep18, you could cheese the game easily with X-items, but they've since been moved up the Dept Store floors to the point where you'll have to wait a good long while

 

15 hours ago, LilyX said:

I for example always thought of Scrafty as mediocre. Now I love him, because he carried me through half the game.

I too let Moxie Scrafty carry me through multiple gym battles.