Naganadel Counter

[N1Dude]

Hey guys,

 

So since Naganadel is available in E18, and the dragon type gym leader is fought in E19, they surely thought of a Naganadel counter for Saphira right?

I mean otherwise you'd just start with it, nasty plot up and just OHKO everything while getting speed boosts.

So what counter do you think Saphira would have?

I was thinking about it this week and actually could not think of an effective counter for it.

The only counter would be scarf Noivern, because that is the only dragon type with a higher base speed. So you knock out her lead, Naganadel gets a +1 and then she should be outspeeding you with scarf noivern and OHKO you with even a dragon pulse.

Then I thought, maybe a goodra could tank a hit. So i calced it;

 

Z-dragon pulse does 96.8-114% to a Max HP Max Spdef calm natured assault vest goodra

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 372-438 (96.8 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

So Goodra isn't a counter either (did calc both mons at lvl 100 but shouldn't make much of a difference).

 

Last option is focus sash mons ofcourse but some rocks could break those so easily.

 

This got me thinking, was Naganadel released too early?

Because the last gym looks like a pushover with this OP mon in your team.

 

Let me know what you guys think,

N1Dude.

[Lord Drakyle]

10 minutes ago, N1Dude said:

Hey guys,

 

So since Naganadel is available in E18, and the dragon type gym leader is fought in E19, they surely thought of a Naganadel counter for Saphira right?

I mean otherwise you'd just start with it, nasty plot up and just OHKO everything while getting speed boosts.

So what counter do you think Saphira would have?

I was thinking about it this week and actually could not think of an effective counter for it.

The only counter would be scarf Noivern, because that is the only dragon type with a higher base speed. So you knock out her lead, Naganadel gets a +1 and then she should be outspeeding you with scarf noivern and OHKO you with even a dragon pulse.

Then I thought, maybe a goodra could tank a hit. So i calced it;

 

Z-dragon pulse does 96.8-114% to a Max HP Max Spdef calm natured assault vest goodra

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 372-438 (96.8 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

So Goodra isn't a counter either (did calc both mons at lvl 100 but shouldn't make much of a difference).

 

Last option is focus sash mons ofcourse but some rocks could break those so easily.

 

This got me thinking, was Naganadel released too early?

Because the last gym looks like a pushover with this OP mon in your team.

 

Let me know what you guys think,

N1Dude.

Well i think you are overthinking it, consider what one must do to get a Poipole/Nagandel, the amount of effort it takes i think makes up for how it fares against Saphira's team that said, have you considered the possibility that we face Saphira in doubles? this may change the battle somewhat even then for those that get a Nagandel if they want a more challenging battle they can refrain from using it.

[uberle]

Considering how difficult it is to get Poiple in the first place I don't think that it's that big of a deal

Also since you only get the one, it's not like you can try for IVs (if that matters to you)

Saphira may have a counter, or she may not. But I'm fairly certain that not many people are actually going to bother catching and evolving all the mons that you need for Naganadel.

So I don't think it got released too early.

If you have it, then you deserve it.

[N1Dude]

1 minute ago, Lord Drakyle said:

Well i think you are overthinking it, consider what one must do to get a Poipole/Nagandel, the amount of effort it takes i think makes up for how it fares against Saphira's team that said, have you considered the possibility that we face Saphira in doubles? this may change the battle somewhat even then for those that get a Nagandel if they want a more challenging battle they can refrain from using it.

Hmm did not think of doubles, that's a good point. That would make a sweep definitely much harder. But since dragon dance is buffed in her field i don't think she would battle in doubles.

2 minutes ago, uberle said:

Considering how difficult it is to get Poiple in the first place I don't think that it's that big of a deal

Also since you only get the one, it's not like you can try for IVs (if that matters to you)

Saphira may have a counter, or she may not. But I'm fairly certain that not many people are actually going to bother catching and evolving all the mons that you need for Naganadel.

So I don't think it got released too early.

If you have it, then you deserve it.

Well, you're curtain of 3 perfect IV's and since you get only 1 I think once you get it, it's worth it to soft reset for 31 in speed and sp.attack IV's. At least i thought it was worth it.

 

Well I get your points, I worked hard for it too and it definitely is OP but if you have it, you deserve it. That's a fair point.

By the way the field effect Dragon's Den says that multiscale (Dragonite's ability) cancels his dragon type weakness in this field so that could do something too.

 

I guess we'll just have to see how it works out. And if it turns out that she is a push over with naganadel I won't use her for my own challange. We'll see haha!

[Lord Drakyle]

3 minutes ago, N1Dude said:

Hmm did not think of doubles, that's a good point. That would make a sweep definitely much harder. But since dragon dance is buffed in her field i don't think she would battle in doubles.

Well, you're curtain of 3 perfect IV's and since you get only 1 I think once you get it, it's worth it to soft reset for 31 in speed and sp.attack IV's. At least i thought it was worth it.

 

Well I get your points, I worked hard for it too and it definitely is OP but if you have it, you deserve it. That's a fair point.

By the way the field effect Dragon's Den says that multiscale (Dragonite's ability) cancels his dragon type weakness in this field so that could do something too.

 

I guess we'll just have to see how it works out. And if it turns out that she is a push over with naganadel I won't use her for my own challange. We'll see haha!

Also how do we know Saphira wont have a lesser legendary or a Nagandel herself?

[N1Dude]

1 minute ago, Lord Drakyle said:

Also how do we know Saphira wont have a lesser legendary or a Nagandel herself?

Haha, the only faster dragon than noivern is Ultra necrozma and i'm guessing that she won't have that , could be wrong though. (And not even mega salamence and mega rayquaza don't have a higher base speed than naganadel)

Well also mega-sceptile but didn't count him cause he can't hold an item like a choice scarf.

And a Naganadel of her own could also be very possible ofcourse, would be fun to play around some speedtie's . 

 

[HakuryuYukio]

Worst case scenario, she has a choice scarf Latios

[N1Dude]

2 minutes ago, HakuryuYukio said:

Worst case scenario, she has a choice scarf Latios

Latios has 110 base speed

Naganadel 121.

So after 1 kill (1 speed boost) you outspeed a choice scarf Latios. You outspeed every dragon but a Noivern, which has 123 base speed.

 

I don't wanna look like an annoying smartass or something but these are just facts and i think people underestimated Naganadel.

[Sirrobert]

How are you keeping it alive while you set up?
With a focus sash? Because you just trivialized that yourself. And even if you did make your Naganadel survive with a Focus Sash, a single priority move shuts that down.

[Lord Drakyle]

5 minutes ago, Sirrobert said:

How are you keeping it alive while you set up?
With a focus sash? Because you just trivialized that yourself. And even if you did make your Naganadel survive with a Focus Sash, a single priority move shuts that down.

Name a Dragon, with priority moves and what those moves are, the number is rather thin

[N1Dude]

10 minutes ago, Sirrobert said:

How are you keeping it alive while you set up?
With a focus sash? Because you just trivialized that yourself. And even if you did make your Naganadel survive with a Focus Sash, a single priority move shuts that down.

True that, It needs to survive 1 attack from any dragon and then it can continue.

4 minutes ago, Lord Drakyle said:

Name a Dragon, with priority moves and what those moves are, the number is rather thin

Then you need to hope that E-speed dragonite doesn't kill you indeed.

There is no other dragon mon with priority i guess? correct me if i'm wrong.

But then again E-speed dratini was an event long ago but true on showdown he gets it but in Reborn, i'm not sure if Ame would give it to Saphira's dragonite.

[SilverAngelus]

8 minutes ago, N1Dude said:

True that, It needs to survive 1 attack from any dragon and then it can continue.

Then you need to hope that E-speed dragonite doesn't kill you indeed.

There is no other dragon mon with priority i guess? correct me if i'm wrong.

But then again E-speed dratini was an event long ago but true on showdown he gets it but in Reborn, i'm not sure if Ame would give it to Saphira's dragonite.

Saphira's Dragonite could have the Multiscale ability, reducing the damage taken at full HP. Chances are that Dragonite would survive a hit and strike back hard 

[N1Dude]

5 minutes ago, SilverHelio said:

Saphira's Dragonite could have the Multiscale ability, reducing the damage taken at full HP. Chances are that Dragonite would survive a hit and strike back hard 

Yeah i stated that a couple of posts as well. 

Multiscale also cancels her Dragon weakness so the +2 super effective Dragon pulse will become a +0 neutral Dragon pulse which will definitely not be enough to OHKO.

But if you get up Rocks, her multiscale will be broken and then Naganadels Dragon pulse will become +2 again. And with the field effect bonus for Dragon pulse (1.5x bonus) it probably will be enough to knock it out. Can't calc it precisely so I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it will.

[Lord Drakyle]

8 minutes ago, N1Dude said:

Yeah i stated that a couple of posts as well. 

Multiscale also cancels her Dragon weakness so the +2 super effective Dragon pulse will become a +0 neutral Dragon pulse which will definitely not be enough to OHKO.

But if you get up Rocks, her multiscale will be broken and then Naganadels Dragon pulse will become +2 again. And with the field effect bonus for Dragon pulse (1.5x bonus) it probably will be enough to knock it out. Can't calc it precisely so I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it will.

for all we know her Dragonite may be defensively built evs/ivs wise but we can also use Gastro Acid if we felt like removing it's ability or Soak/Nature's Madness if we felt like changing it's type but those are only for people really struggling.

[Sirrobert]

At this point it'd take several pokemon to set up a killing combination.

That is basically the same thing you do for all gyms.

 

Gyms are not really competitive human vs human. They are more puzzles.

[N1Dude]

13 minutes ago, Lord Drakyle said:

for all we know her Dragonite may be defensively built evs/ivs wise but we can also use Gastro Acid if we felt like removing it's ability or Soak/Nature's Madness if we felt like changing it's type but those are only for people really struggling.

Well IV wise it will definitely have 6 perfect IV's. I mean dragonite is (probably) her ace.

And hence Dragon dance is boosted (probably gives +2 in attack and speed) in the Dragon Den's field it probably won't be defensively build but she definitely could be ofcourse. Who knows.

1 minute ago, Sirrobert said:

At this point it'd take several pokemon to set up a killing combination.

That is basically the same thing you do for all gyms.

 

Gyms are not really competitive human vs human. They are more puzzles.

Yeah true, but with Naganadel that combination of Pokemon could be a very small combination

[Sirrobert]

Just now, N1Dude said:

Yeah true, but with Naganadel that combination of Pokemon could be a very small combination

Well it's not like that's a break from design. The solution to Hardy is "Wide Guard". That's not even a pokemon.

[Swampellow]

There is a pretty decent chance that Saphira will be doubles, which would greatly reduce the chance of Naganadel from being dumb . Regardless of whether she is doubles or singles however it doesn't matter. There is a Pokemon that can steamroll essentially every gym (or in some cases Excadrill they can steamroll multiple gyms. Ame isn't going to worry that much having a team be able to counter one specific Pokemon, it isn't her style.

 

Its the same thing people complained about with Hardy. If you are going to bring something that can 100% counter the gym leader (for Hardy that was usually a steel type/weather/field changing, while for Saphira Naga could be the same thing), it really won't matter what the leader's team is.

[N1Dude]

53 minutes ago, Swampellow said:

There is a pretty decent chance that Saphira will be doubles, which would greatly reduce the chance of Naganadel from being dumb . Regardless of whether she is doubles or singles however it doesn't matter. There is a Pokemon that can steamroll essentially every gym (or in some cases Excadrill they can steamroll multiple gyms. Ame isn't going to worry that much having a team be able to counter one specific Pokemon, it isn't her style.

 

Its the same thing people complained about with Hardy. If you are going to bring something that can 100% counter the gym leader (for Hardy that was usually a steel type/weather/field changing, while for Saphira Naga could be the same thing), it really won't matter what the leader's team is.

Why do you think that there's a decent change for her being doubles?

 

I know it's not her style, I was just being curious if people could think of a way to counter Naganadel with just only Dragon types.

 

So what you're saying is, if you bring something to counter her team you're bound to push her over? I'm not sure what you're exactly saying right here. It's just a matter of teambuilding and you'll just win easily?

 

54 minutes ago, Sirrobert said:

Well it's not like that's a break from design. The solution to Hardy is "Wide Guard". That's not even a pokemon.

I get where you're coming from,

The further we progress in the game, the easier it gets to find "solutions" or "counters" to a gym leaders team. Especially now, when all the non-legendary Pokemon are available.

[Lord Drakyle]

34 minutes ago, N1Dude said:

Why do you think that there's a decent change for her being doubles?

 

I know it's not her style, I was just being curious if people could think of a way to counter Naganadel with just only Dragon types.

 

So what you're saying is, if you bring something to counter her team you're bound to push her over? I'm not sure what you're exactly saying right here. It's just a matter of teambuilding and you'll just win easily?

 

I get where you're coming from,

The further we progress in the game, the easier it gets to find "solutions" or "counters" to a gym leaders team. Especially now, when all the non-legendary Pokemon are available.

from a story point of view it works, earlier in you would look at Saphira and think to yaself, even if i had the same levels as her it would likely be a very difficult battle for my team, but when you reach her gym in the story it feels more like you been through SO much shit, you and your team are prepared to stand on equal footing with her.

[Swampellow]

31 minutes ago, N1Dude said:

Why do you think that there's a decent change for her being doubles?

 

I know it's not her style, I was just being curious if people could think of a way to counter Naganadel with just only Dragon types.

 

So what you're saying is, if you bring something to counter her team you're bound to push her over? I'm not sure what you're exactly saying right here. It's just a matter of teambuilding and you'll just win easily?

Based on the fact that there is going to be a lot of significant boss battles in e19 (Various Meteor Fights, Saphira, e4 + champion equivalent battle), and how Ame likes to be (somewhat) even with Singles vs Doubles battles, there is a decent chance that Saphira would be doubles.

 

There definitely are ways that a person could counter Naganadel with only Dragon types, but you must remember, as smart as Marc makes the AI, it won't be able to effectively use everything it has (which is another reason some of the leaders are much easier than others).

 

And no, I'm saying that if you bring something that is a counter to her strategy (not just her team) you are bound to push her over. Of course we don't actually know her strategy for sure yet, but I go back to my Hardy example. 99% of the people who complained about Hardy being too easy brought something that countered his strategy (Rock Slide Spam). They did this via a few ways (usually), outspeeding after changing the weather (typically w/ rain), changing the field in some way (which eliminated a lot of the chip damage that the field did, as well as weakening Rock Slide), or bringing steel types (who typically have high defense and resist rock, which counters Rock Slide). 

 

In a way yes it does just come down to building a team to counter what she does. But personally I like to try to beat each leader with as few changes to my team is possible. I know that a lot of other people also play this way. But there are then also the people who bring teams designed to counter whatever a gym leader can/is meant to do and they then win easily. 

[N1Dude]

1 minute ago, Lord Drakyle said:

from a story point of view it works, earlier in you would look at Saphira and think to yaself, even if i had the same levels as her it would likely be a very difficult battle for my team, but when you reach her gym in the story it feels more like you been through SO much shit, you and your team are prepared to stand on equal footing with her.

Haha yeah, right before you challenge Noel you see her flying over on a dragonite while you're about to challenge the normal type gym leader with a semi-good team and you're like "woah, that gym batter's going to be insanely difficult".

And now with all the Pokemon we have on the same level, and probably a lot of the same Pokemon as her it's probably not going to be that difficult (fingers crossed).

[SilverAngelus]

1 hour ago, N1Dude said:

Yeah i stated that a couple of posts as well. 

Multiscale also cancels her Dragon weakness so the +2 super effective Dragon pulse will become a +0 neutral Dragon pulse which will definitely not be enough to OHKO.

But if you get up Rocks, her multiscale will be broken and then Naganadels Dragon pulse will become +2 again. And with the field effect bonus for Dragon pulse (1.5x bonus) it probably will be enough to knock it out. Can't calc it precisely so I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it will.

Did not notice. Sorry about that.

[N1Dude]

8 minutes ago, SilverHelio said:

Did not notice. Sorry about that. 

No problem   was ment to be "a couple of posts back" by the way haha.

17 minutes ago, Swampellow said:

Based on the fact that there is going to be a lot of significant boss battles in e19 (Various Meteor Fights, Saphira, e4 + champion equivalent battle), and how Ame likes to be (somewhat) even with Singles vs Doubles battles, there is a decent chance that Saphira would be doubles.

Aah okay, well you obviously know more about that than me so if you say so.

I'm hoping it will be haha.

17 minutes ago, Swampellow said:

There definitely are ways that a person could counter Naganadel with only Dragon types, but you must remember, as smart as Marc makes the AI, it won't be able to effectively use everything it has (which is another reason some of the leaders are much easier than others).

Yeah that makes sense.

17 minutes ago, Swampellow said:

And no, I'm saying that if you bring something that is a counter to her strategy (not just her team) you are bound to push her over. Of course we don't actually know her strategy for sure yet, but I go back to my Hardy example. 99% of the people who complained about Hardy being too easy brought something that countered his strategy (Rock Slide Spam). They did this via a few ways (usually), outspeeding after changing the weather (typically w/ rain), changing the field in some way (which eliminated a lot of the chip damage that the field did, as well as weakening Rock Slide), or bringing steel types (who typically have high defense and resist rock, which counters Rock Slide). 

 

In a way yes it does just come down to building a team to counter what she does. But personally I like to try to beat each leader with as few changes to my team is possible. I know that a lot of other people also play this way. But there are then also the people who bring teams designed to counter whatever a gym leader can/is meant to do and they then win easily. 

I personally like to breed haha.

So I have like 2 boxes full of mons with almost perfect IV's and EV-trained ready to fight so. I don't really have a main team. But I like to play with my trickroom team so that will probably be my main team for the elite four. But i defeated Hardy easily too with a team what was build against him.

 

I get where you're coming from because before Amaria i played like that as well. And it was so satisfying to defeat the leaders with your own team. But then i got bored between episodes and started breeding.
Makes me wanna do another run after E19 with just like a handfull of mons. Will probably do that.

[Destrakon]

I heard from someone who is trying to counter Saphira with a Mega Altaria, which could be a bad a idea because not only Naganadel, but Dragalge, which is kinda Sp.Def bulky, and its types. As for its ace pokemon. I'm surely it will be Dragonite, but I thought the same way with Hardy, which is not Gigalith, it is Lycanroc. If it is that way, then I'll goo with Salamance be her ace, allowing to mega evolve. As for format, pretty sure it would be Doubles, or, before battle, Saphira allows to choose (Like Amaria did). 

 

Personally, if I would counter Naganadel, it would be with Assault Vest Tyranitar, pretty sure it can take at least 2 shots. And of course, planning to outspeed with Tailwind, and finish with Mega Charizard X and Naganadel.