Why you shouldn't hate you Rivals.

[Wolfox]

Whenever I see a list of "top 10 Pokémon Rivals", there's always 1 thing that you will find in there in one way or another: That you "need" to hate your Rival for motivation. This... is complete Bullshit (if you ask me). Motivation comes from many things, from wanting to kick Blue into hell for being a Dick, to wanting to have a competition with Hau to see who of you two can be the stronger trainer without throwing insults at each other like he's your worst enemy. Simply saying "Hating your rival motivates you more" is extremely subjective. Not everyone will get hyped up from kicking an asshole into the dirt, and not everyone will be as excited about battling a friend in a friendly competition.

 

Now, I know that what motivates one is extremely subjective. I for one feel more for a Rival who I can also have a friendly chat with and can have my back when dealing with shit (like the evil team). Not everyone will share this, though. Just keep one thing in mind: there's more to each Rival than just their teams.

[DerogatoryTrainer]

[Guest Relinquished]

Somebody should always respect their rival, under any circumstances. Never underestimate them, or treat them with arrogance. Any, every rival, has something to teach us, if we are careful on how to make "contact" with them. Who said it is a good idea, to mix feelings in the picture, wherever "rivals" are involved? And especially, strong ones, such as "hate"? This is going to cloud your judgement and immediately lead you to err. Handling a rival is something further than business or science, it is an "art". Careful, now... Besides, the friends of today, can be your enemies in tomorrow (especially true, in pokemon rivals).

[J-Awesome_One]

5 hours ago, DerogatoryTrainer said:

Spoiler

Melia

 

[Commander]

The reason people hated Blue wasn't because of their attitude but because someone like that was better than you. Have you ever noticed Blue always had his name on the statue. And no matter how many times you beat him, he still was in the lead. If that's not a motivation to want to kick a guy's assI don't know what is. He doesn't have much time to develop because he didn't need to.

 

Let's go to two other rivals: Barry and Huey. Barry doesn't work because all he pretty much does is run off and is hardly present. Platinum helped him out, but there wasn't much rivalry between you two. Huey was a much more fitting rival, but his goals really pushed to be more like a friend then someone you are competing against.

 

We actually had a better rival than both Blue and Silver. Do you know his name? It's N. In is a perfect example of what a rival should be. His goals conflict with yours and while he doesn't want to be your enemy he has to be due to your beliefs clashing with his. When he finally won, you want to take him down. More like you need to take him down in one final clash.

 

The problem with most of the modern day rivals isn't personality but the fact there really isn't much behind said rivalry. Wally had potential but he just isn't seen much. I think a relation like Sora and Riku's rivalry from KH would go a long way. Riku was just better than you. That's why you wanted to beat him in the beginning.

[Epharam]

I agree with most of the thing you said Rambling, excepted on one point: N, He isn't really your rival, at no point does N "Wants" to fight with Pokemon, at no point N wants to be the League champion. All N Wants is Pokemon Liberation, and the only way he can achieve that is by being the best trainer there is, N doesn't really have any sort of competition with you, N just see in you someone who doesn't agree to his ideas but doesn't look wrong doing so, That's why N wants to battle you, to see who's will is stronger, who is right, Is the actual reality the best thing there is or should it be erased to be replaced by N's ideal. If N didn't need to impose his ideal by being the Pokemon champion, He would never have fought you. At the end, when N understand that his idea where wrong he doesn't even want to fight you anymore, he just leave to try and make the world a better place.

 

A Rival is just someone you have competition with. and you could agree that N compete with you in the Unova league but he doesn't do it to be champion or the best like you, he just wants the throne.

 

Anyway to come back to the original subject, i think the first rivals where loved because Jerks are easier to remember than plainly kind person  Harsh reality 

[DerogatoryTrainer]

On 12/23/2018 at 4:20 PM, J-Awesome_One said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Melia

 

Spoiler

Has the power to restore life to an entire planet. Try again.

 

[Chase]

A "rival" is someone who competes with someone for the same objective or to prove superiority. Literally all there is to it.

 

I wanna go through all the main series rivals -AND- one in Reborn to sort of discern if they are truly rivals or not - and whether or not hatred makes them more compelling.

 

---

 

GEN 1 - Blue.

 

Blue absolutely IS a rival, but he is mostly so in that both you and him are trying to become Kanto's Pokémon League Champion and it all comes down to who can win between two trainers who have both bested the Elite 4. With regards to our next door neighbor from Pallet Town's attitude, what's interesting is that Blue is never - at least considerably - rude to the player. He does have an aire of arrogance, but that comes with being in a heavily involved Pokémon family prior to going on his journey. Blue passes the test not because of his personality but because of his purpose. You might be shocked by a few others who make the cut too in this regard.

 

GEN 2 - Silver.

 

Silver is the biggest jerkface of the main series, which the player's "motivation" to compete with him stemming from Silver's stealing his starter from Professor Elm and constant penchant for shoving the player out of his way. That "motivation" however - wouldn't be enough to qualify him as a rival through purpose. Silver does have a very good story arc throughout the game, when he comes to realize the reason for his lack of success is wrought out of being a careless Pokémon Trainer who was using his Pokémon as tools. Not only that, Silver even manages to literally BECOME your rival in a strange twist that would later be repeated. Silver has a significant disdain for Team Rocket, and has good reason to want to take them down. The player and Silver are both trying to stop the organization - as seen when Silver finds the player at the Goldenrod City Radio Tower during the Rocket raid. He also qualifies as a rival because he comes off as DESPERATELY trying to prove he is better than the player. This means Silver is a superiority clause rival. He may be the only main series rival to go that route.

 

GEN 3 - Brendan/May, Wally

 

The first game to start giving you multiple friends to compete against, and the first one to have a character that is typically considered a rival NOT qualify much at all. The first person you battle routinely is Professor Birch's son/daughter. You meet them in their room when you move into Littleroot, discover that their Pokémon journey is more of a supplementary field work marathon on behalf of their dad, and the character is relegated to giving the player helpful items after friendly battles. Brendan/May doesn't strive for the same purpose as the player (or at least, they don't make the Pokedex recording a competition, as a later potential candidate does) - therefore, it is difficult to say they are even your rival at all.

 

WALLY on the other hand, is the main rival in Hoenn, via purpose. His screen time is very limited, but provides the wonderful effect of time passing and a once sickly boy not only becoming more durable to the elements, but a strong Pokémon Trainer who challenges the player in Ever Grande City to see if they are ready to take on the best of the region's best. The negative is really that we don't see him all that much, because it is an interesting "mentor-mentee" relationship that seemingly forms between the player and Wally, with Wally, the Student, trying to become the Master at the end, by beating you with a quality team.

 

GEN 4 - Barry

 

I don't have any personal experience with Barry as a rival, but I don't think you can really call him one through the two criteria (shared purpose that they compete with you over, superiority) based on what I've read. Barry seems to be an awesome friend who takes risks and knows what he wants - but it isn't necessarily that he wants what you do, or thinks he's better than you at achieving YOUR goals. I could be wrong however.

 

GEN 5 - Cheren, Bianca/N/Hugh

 

Of the four characters, Cheren clears the hurdle and earns the title of "rival" due to the having a desire to become the Unova League Champion. He is FAR less successful than Blue before him, in part because N's involvement with the Pokémon League kinda just opens the door for a battle of opposing forces instead. Cheren is your reprensentation of "idealism" - which is half of an important conflict in the Unova titles. He wants to be the best there ever was, and works hard to achieve that goal.

 

Bianca is simply your friend. She has her own goals, and definitely doesn't see herself as better than you when it comes to yours. This is due to her being the other side of the coin to Cheren. Where Cheren is an idealist who wants to constantly improve, Bianca understands that being the best Pokémon Trainer isn't for her fairly quickly and seems to have less drive than you and Cheren in comparison. Bianca doesn't want to become the Champion either, so where Cheren qualifies, Bianca simply does not. Truthin.

 

N is more similar to Reborn's Taka than he is to say...Fern or....Fern. He's in with the wrong crowd, doesn't have a particular desire that mirrors yours, and he may be confident to a certain degree, but it isn't in superiority so much as it is in that he believes his actions are the correct ones to take. His battle with you at the Pokémon League seems to be interpreted as one between equal forces that are simply opposing one another fundamentally. He may be an intriguing recurring opponent, but he isn't your rival because he doesn't want to be Pokémon League Champion (at least in the sense that the player does), nor does he think he is an outright better trainer.

 

Nate/Rosa have a different character to consider in Hugh. What's interesting bout this guy is simply that it's more like we're trying to compete with HIM than it is him trying to compete with us at times. Hugh is a very determined, easily angered trainer who has a clear purpose very early. Going after Team Plasma to rescue a Purrloin that was stolen from his sister. We kinda get dragged into it. Hugh is a good opponent that ACTS like a rival should - but whether he is or not comes down to how you view the situation he and Nate/Rosa have as a duo. It really just seems like they are childhood friends and he's being a ringleader if anything to me. He doesn't so much interest in being a Pokémon League Champion, and while he kinda flexes on us because he's had his Pokémon longer than we have, he doesn't consider himself better than us either.

 

GEN 6 - Serena/Calem, Shauna, Tierno, Trevor.

 

All four of these people are amicable friends but none of them seem to be developed as much as the "not chosen player character" - or Serena or Calem - is. And while that doesn't seem that much better given the repurposed models and bland dialogue, Serena and Calem are DEFINITELY rivals in purpose. Not only in merely being a Pokémon League Champion, but in the best rival scene in the game, having to battle for the right to use the sole Mega Ring in the Mega Evolution Guru's possession.  They are genuinely disappointed in losing that battle. Anyway, Serena/Calem want to be champion as you do and want to use Mega Evolution as you do and are forced to fight you for the right to do either. They are a bona fide rival. In fact, at Café Soleil in Lumiose City they make it a formal proposal.

 

Shauna doesn't have a similar purpose as the player and the rejected player model character does. They are seemingly just in it for the ability to bond with their partner. Shauna is more of an asset character to the protagonist than she is a rival. She also definitely doesn't consider herself superior to us.

 

Tierno has a random moment where he wishes to battle the player as they approach the Snow city in Kalos. However, it is borne out of impulse more than anything else. Tierno isn't a rival.

 

Trevor...may actually be one if you choose to routinely compare Pokedexes with him. However, he's simply a friend elsewhere.

 

GEN 7 - Hau, Gladion

 

Both are rivals here.

 

Hau is literally USUM's Champion encounter - and is also doing the Island Challenge with you. He may not be as determined as the player is to complete it in a timely manner (islanders are super chill) but there's enough there to say he qualifies in purpose.

 

Gladion has a shared interest in taking down the Aether Foundation (or at least opposing the agenda of his mother, Lusamine), and is the second coming of Silver although the game's presentation and dialogue make Gladion appear more easy to relate with than Silver. Silver was a rival, ergo, Gladion was a rival.

 

---

 

Now, if people believe hatred has anything to do with making a good rival that's more of a preference thing than a science. Some of the rivals in this series BY DEFINITION are nice people that call you their friend. However, people tend to appreciate their rivals going for the superiority angle. Fern - everyone's favorite grasshole in Reborn - nails "Rival" in both strokes. All of a sudden, you piss him off so much he wants to be Pokémon League Champ, and he DEFINITELY thinks he's superior to you.  On top of that, the player may be unseating Fern as -....well, let's just say it's a total rivalry in the ugliest sense of the word.

 

It happens this way in real life sports as well. Some of the most memorable rivalries are the ones where both parties absolutely despise one another. However, there are definitely good rivalries that are borne simply out of proximity or something else that is completely benign (such as both schools being academic powerhouses - think Harvard and Yale - hey look, purpose rivals!)

[wcv]

The only rival I hated was Hau. This did inspire me to kick the shit out of him every time we met in increasingly humiliating fashion, but he was such a horrible character and weak opponent that he could barely be called a peer opponent.

[ty_taurus]

On 12/25/2018 at 10:32 PM, Chase said:

Snip

I love your breakdown of each character. It really showcases the difference between each and how they're both not actual rehashes of the same archetype, nor were they designed to be.

 

I get that Pokemon isn't exactly the shining definition of complex narratives, but it does get under my skin a little how people feel the need to trivialize character development for this concept of having an asshole rival, even when that says almost nothing about who that rival is as a person.

 

Good character development isn't created by trying to fill a specific niche, but by creating a character with a personality, backstory, and goal, and actually letting them take control of their own story.

[Wolfox]

9 minutes ago, ty_taurus said:

I love your breakdown of each character. It really showcases the difference between each and how they're both not actual rehashes of the same archetype, nor were they designed to be.

 

I get that Pokemon isn't exactly the shining definition of complex narratives, but it does get under my skin a little how people feel the need to trivialize character development for this concept of having an asshole rival, even when that says almost nothing about who that rival is as a person.

 

Good character development isn't created by trying to fill a specific niche, but by creating a character with a personality, backstory, and goal, and actually letting them take control of their own story.

indeed. and guess who fails in all of that (Blue)

[ty_taurus]

26 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

indeed. and guess who fails in all of that (Blue)

Blue may not be a well-written character, but it wasn't from a lack of trying.

 

Red/Green/Blue/Yellow came from a simpler time where mobile gaming hardware was extremely limited. The game's narrative was never trying to be a complex narrative like in a film or console RPG, it was just trying to create a simulation for kids to role play in this fantasy world with fantastical animals with supernatural powers, and not mercilessly slaughter them like any other RPG. Blue was just created to add in a layer of conflict, as all stories need, so that the player would have some opposing force that wasn't just a crime syndicate.