Dev Blog | V12 Status Thread

[Fallen Savior Morgan]

2 minutes ago, Commander said:

Dude, you don't have to read the rants and don't take them personal. Sometimes people make posts again and again suggesting it so may as well have something to refer back to when it keeps coming up. If one person asks, 30 or more are probably reading and wondering the same thing. And if I do tick you off, it's better to handle it in PMs (always open).

 

And honestly, I'm really surprised by the displeasure people seem to have with Dynamax. I thought it looked ok and something that could be okay replacing the old Mega and Z-move system permanently but to each their own. 

It could be taken seriously due the context of the way it is and quoting someone places a target on the commenter and it seems as it is told that person specifically, now that I have calm down with tea, I am sorry for the way I have behaved and no longer do i wish to touch this subject ever again. Also next time I'll do that, I am sorry.

[Magus543]

Well least people settled this civilly, It's a common pitfall when it comes to projects like fangames, that adding in too many ideas just kinda dilutes the game, like does anyone remember this game has Shadow Pokemon? 

[Fallen Savior Morgan]

Just now, Magus543 said:

Well least people settled this civilly, It's a common pitfall when it comes to projects like fangames, that adding in too many ideas just kinda dilutes the game, like does anyone remember this game has Shadow Pokemon? 

yeah and i have some in my pc, it stopped being relevent after rens betrayal

[Magus543]

6 minutes ago, Harsh Bhakta said:

yeah and i have some in my pc, it stopped being relevent after rens betrayal

See, the reason why Shadow Pokemon in the Gamecube games worked, is because they are the main point of the game, like you see them not just from generic grunts but from trainers too, and because the games don't have many wild pokemon to capture so they were a good source of Pokemon. Rejuvenation HAS wild pokemon so the Shadow Pokemon are redundant. Additionally Shadow Pokemon was the main weapon of Cipher, their plan was to conquer the world with them. But in Rejuvenation, Team Xen just thinks of them as elite mooks and stop producing them eventually. Hell even the official art posted by Zumi recently of the PCs doesn't have any Snag Machines on them, that's how forgotten Shadow Pokemon are by the dev team. This is what i mean when you have a cool idea but don't implement it well, it just falls to the wayside. No insult to the dev team, i think the current direction is better.
 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Magus543

[Myrrh]

Shadow Pokemon are used by Team Xen members during Team Xen operations.  Thus, we haven't really had many times where they would have been able to show up from when we had last seen them.  The plot has been preoccupied by Team Bladestar as of recent, which draws attention away from Team Xen and their devices (our last interaction was cooperating with Madame X to get back from the altered future and working with Ren - if one even counts that as a Team Xen interaction.)  The last actual operation where we can catch Shadow Pokemon is actually in Amber's home when it is attacked by Madelis.  From that point, the only other time we really came into direct conflict with Team Xen was on Mount Valor.  One can also go back and catch a Shadow Beldum for a later instance of a Shadow Pokemon.  So it isn't so much that Shadow Pokemon are discontinued, it's more like that they are not in our peripherals due to where we are in the plot.

 

Other plot reasons why Shadow Pokemon don't show up as much as Colosseum or Shadow of Darkness are because:

 

~ Team Xen were early on established as having revived the project.

~ Team Xen were early on established to have had only managed to create a small supply of Shadow Pokemon.

~ Nastasia went to the backup lab to be able to continue the project and resupply their organization with Shadow Pokemon, hence why Mount Valor lacked any Shadow Pokemon one could catch.

 

Shadow Pokemon are very likely to show up more when Team Xen launches more operations for us to deal with.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Myrrh

[Fallen Savior Morgan]

That makes clear sense now, basically it was there when the plot requires it and it was just forgotten over time.

[Magus543]

15 minutes ago, Myrrh said:

Shadow Pokemon are used by Team Xen members during Team Xen operations.  Thus, we haven't really had many times where they would have been able to show up from when we had last seen them.  The plot has been preoccupied by Team Bladestar as of recent, which draws attention away from Team Xen and their devices (our last interaction was cooperating with Madame X to get back from the altered future and working with Ren - if one even counts that as a Team Xen interaction.)  The last actual operation where we can catch Shadow Pokemon is actually in Amber's home when it is attacked by Madelis.  From that point, the only other time we really came into direct conflict with Team Xen was on Mount Valor.  One can also go back and catch a Shadow Beldum for a later instance of a Shadow Pokemon.  So it isn't so much that Shadow Pokemon are discontinued, it's more like that they are not in our peripherals due to where we are in the plot.

 

Other plot reasons why Shadow Pokemon don't show up as much as Colosseum or Shadow of Darkness are because:

 

~ Team Xen were early on established as having revived the project.

~ Team Xen were early on established to have had only managed to create a small supply of Shadow Pokemon.

~ Nastasia went to the backup lab to be able to continue the project and resupply their organization with Shadow Pokemon, hence why Mount Valor lacked any Shadow Pokemon one could catch.

 

Shadow Pokemon are very likely to show up more when Team Xen launches more operations for us to deal with.

Good point, it is true we haven't fought Team Xen in a LONG time, though if the dev team really wanted Shadow Pokemon, i could really see Team Bladestar using them especially since Flora did have access to Team Xen's research, though so far we only know FLora knows about Rift Matter. Plus Team Bladestar is willing to kill so i can see how Shadow Pokemon would help in overthrowing Cassandra. Regardless, Shadow Pokemon in Rejuvenation don't have the same presence they have in the Gamecube games. But who knows, maybe if they do come back, they'll be improved on.

[ZappoNinja]

1 minute ago, Magus543 said:

Good point, it is true we haven't fought Team Xen in a LONG time, though if the dev team really wanted Shadow Pokemon, i could really see Team Bladestar using them especially since Flora did have access to Team Xen's research, though so far we only know FLora knows about Rift Matter. Plus Team Bladestar is willing to kill so i can see how Shadow Pokemon would help in overthrowing Cassandra. Regardless, Shadow Pokemon in Rejuvenation don't have the same presence they have in the Gamecube games. But who knows, maybe if they do come back, they'll be improved on.

Creating Shadow Pokemon seems to be expensive, especially to keep them Shadow, so I feel like Flora would rather use those expenses on something moreso cheap like Rift Pokemon as extensive research is needed to cure a rift Pokemon but just walking around is all that is needed to cure Shadow Pokemon and once free they'd probably resist being told what to do until Shadowified again. So it makes more sense for Team Xen to use them and not Bladestar.

[Myrrh]

1) You forget that Flora went out of her way to ensure that the Rift transformation would not hurt the Pokemon that is being changed.  She researched Pulse transformations with Dr. Jenkel to ensure that the Pokemon would be put into an enjoyable state of being.  Shadow Pokemon, in contrast, entirely lose themselves and become crazed to the point they begin to damage themselves due to becoming overwhelmed by their own state of being.

 

2) This assumes Flora was able to find information on Shadow Pokemon from where she was.  For all we know, the information related to Shadow Pokemon could very well have all been in the lab under Madelis' control in Sheridan and the Backup Lab.  Hence why Nastasia had to go directly there to retrieve all the necessary data and information.

[Magus543]

1 minute ago, ZappoNinja said:

Creating Shadow Pokemon seems to be expensive, especially to keep them Shadow, so I feel like Flora would rather use those expenses on something moreso cheap like Rift Pokemon as extensive research is needed to cure a rift Pokemon but just walking around is all that is needed to cure Shadow Pokemon and once free they'd probably resist being told what to do until Shadowified again. So it makes more sense for Team Xen to use them and not Bladestar.

Team Bladestar has an underground society, flying machines, machines that can vaporize forestry, at least 2 complex lairs, and Flora herself must get a lot of cash being a Gym Leader. I'm sure Bladestar doesn't have any money problems, just intelligence problems.

[ZappoNinja]

7 minutes ago, Magus543 said:

Team Bladestar has an underground society, flying machines, machines that can vaporize forestry, at least 2 complex lairs, and Flora herself must get a lot of cash being a Gym Leader. I'm sure Bladestar doesn't have any money problems, just intelligence problems.

If you follow Flora, tell her you saw what she did in Darchlight Forest, and then keep her secret hidden later in the game she mentions how making a secret base under her gym is expensive in which is why she had her base in Darchlight Cave at first. From this I decided that spending money on unnecessary things such as Shadow Pokemon probably isn't the most wanted thing for Team Bladestar as Rift Matter is definitely pushing it in the expense department especially when you spend money on making it so the Pokemon doesn't suffer. 

Edit: Oh yeah that's a much better reason for why they don't use Shadow Pokemon, if Flora will go out of her way to make her Rift Pokemon feel no suffering and just get a power boost why would she force Pokemon to suffer by making them Shadow Pokemon?

Edited June 24, 2019 by ZappoNinja
I realized something.

[Magus543]

11 minutes ago, Myrrh said:

1) You forget that Flora went out of her way to ensure that the Rift transformation would not hurt the Pokemon that is being changed.  She researched Pulse transformations with Dr. Jenkel to ensure that the Pokemon would be put into an enjoyable state of being.  Shadow Pokemon, in contrast, entirely lose themselves and become crazed to the point they begin to damage themselves due to becoming overwhelmed by their own state of being.

 

2) This assumes Flora was able to find information on Shadow Pokemon from where she was.  For all we know, the information related to Shadow Pokemon could very well have all been in the lab under Madelis' control in Sheridan and the Backup Lab.  Hence why Nastasia had to go directly there to retrieve all the necessary data and information.

Good point, Flora does care about her Pokemon, but does she care about her grunts and their Pokemon? At the end of 11 she supposedly blows up the Grand Dream Ball with her grunts inside plus she in general is utterly annoyed with them and she has destroyed environments in Darchlight forest even if she is planning to restore it... eventually. So i can see her converting Grunt pokemon into Shadows. Additionally according to the weird diary in the past, Rift Pokemon do have a connection/similarity to Shadow Pokemon, if not being the next step altogether, so Flora must know some process of shadowfication if she could turn her Ferrothorn into a rift, that and Shadow Pokemon were created by Cipher so if Team Xen could obtain information on it so could Team Bladestar Lastly, Flora ain't the only power in Bladestar, she herself mentions she's an admin, and the V in the Underground society has shown to be highly pragmatic, and the Bladestars in the Underground society are willing to experiment on a robot that has sentience, so it's not all up to Flora. 

[ZappoNinja]

5 minutes ago, Magus543 said:

Good point, Flora does care about her Pokemon, but does she care about her grunts and their Pokemon? At the end of 11 she supposedly blows up the Grand Dream Ball with her grunts inside plus she in general is utterly annoyed with them and she has destroyed environments in Darchlight forest even if she is planning to restore it... eventually. So i can see her converting Grunt pokemon into Shadows. Additionally according to the weird diary in the past, Rift Pokemon do have a connection/similarity to Shadow Pokemon, if not being the next step altogether, so Flora must know some process of shadowfication if she could turn her Ferrothorn into a rift, that and Shadow Pokemon were created by Cipher so if Team Xen could obtain information on it so could Team Bladestar Lastly, Flora ain't the only power in Bladestar, she herself mentions she's an admin, and the V in the Underground society has shown to be highly pragmatic, and the Bladestars in the Underground society are willing to experiment on a robot that has sentience, so it's not all up to Flora. 

We don't know if the Bladestar grunts had a means of surviving the blast yet. Would certainly be a good explanation for why Erin won't die. (Let's be honest, after Erin's whole "I REFUSE TO DIE HERE!" thing she's going to live somehow.) And Zetta in Nightmare City told us that to make Rift Pokemon all one needs is Rift Matter and then they just need to put it onto the Pokemon. No complicated process like submerging said Pokemon into some weird vat filled with unknown substances. Also they weren't experimenting on Ana, they were just trying to extract her nanodrive. Which they then would probably experiment on but who knows.

[Myrrh]

Flora's an extremist whose redeeming quality is meant to be her love for Pokemon.  Her being annoyed at her grunts shouldn't mean she loses her love for Pokemon just because they are under those she lacks any real respect for.  The issue with this comes from the game telling us this, rather than ever really showing us this outside one real instance.

 

The weird diary does indeed tell us that Rift Pokemon hold many similarities to Shadow Pokemon, but as told by Zetta in the Help Center request with Anabel and Looker it doesn't take an understanding of Shadow Pokemon to be able to create or make use of Rift Matter.  Zetta could produce Rift Matter, hence why he was able to create Rift Pokemon.  All it takes to make Rift Pokemon is Rift Matter, which Flora has plenty of.  She even details herself using it in the book one can find on how she used it, "So... We went ahead and applied Rift Matter to Ferrothorn and it went through immediate physical and psychological changes."  This is a lot more simple than how both Team Xen or Team Cipher made Shadow Pokemon.

 

@ZappoNinja Looks like I stated some similar things that you did.  Hope you don't mind.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Myrrh

[Fallen Savior Morgan]

maybe after the explosion the grunts leave on their jetpacks like the time they captured Reina or Flora just doesnt care and is lowkey heartless besides pokemon

Edited June 24, 2019 by Harsh Bhakta

[Magus543]

2 minutes ago, Myrrh said:

Flora's an extremist who's redeeming quality is meant to be her love for Pokemon.  Her being annoyed at her grunts shouldn't mean she loses her love of Pokemon just because it's under those she lacks any real respect for.  The issue with this comes from the game telling us this, rather than ever really showing us this outside one real instance.

 

The weird diary does indeed tell us that Rift Pokemon hold many similarities to Rift Pokemon, but as told by Zetta in the Help Center request with Anabel and Looker, it doesn't take an understanding of Shadow Pokemon to be able to make use of Rift Matter.  Zetta could produce Rift Matter, hence why he was able to create Rift Pokemon.  All it takes to make Rift Pokemon is Rift Matter, which Flora has plenty of.  She even details herself using it in the book one can find on how she used it, "So... We went ahead and applied Rift Matter to Ferrothorn and it went through immediate physical and psychological changes."  This is a lot more simple than how both Team Xen or Team Cipher made Shadow Pokemon.

 

@ZappoNinja Looks like I stated some similar things that you did.  Hope you don't mind.

Personally, i always interpreted Flora as only caring for her Pokemon, i mean she did spread corruption in the Darchlight woods which destroys environments that Pokemon live in, that's bound to have negative effects on them. Additionally Flora has shown herself very vindictive, like in one playthrough i saw, she frames her brother as a admin of Bladestar and condemns him to death while she escapes, while her brother was trying to spare her life from the death penalty, that's ice cold, so i could honestly see her making some use of Shadows.

 

That's a good point from both Zappo and Myrrh about Rift matter, and i will give props to Flora for finding a way to make it not painful, but it does show Flora and the rest of Bladestar are not above altering their Pokemon, so it's not out of character for them to use Shadow Pokemon, like i said, Flora is not the ringleader of Bladestar, there are other leaders beside her, and if Team Xen could recreate Cipher's Shadow Pokemon, i don't see why Bladestar couldn't too.

 

Lastly, Zappo, extracting the nano drive from Ana was pretty painful on her end, so my point still stands.  

[ZappoNinja]

6 minutes ago, Magus543 said:

Personally, i always interpreted Flora as only caring for her Pokemon, i mean she did spread corruption in the Darchlight woods which destroys environments that Pokemon live in, that's bound to have negative effects on them. Additionally Flora has shown herself very vindictive, like in one playthrough i saw, she frames her brother as a admin of Bladestar and condemns him to death while she escapes, while her brother was trying to spare her life from the death penalty, that's ice cold, so i could honestly see her making some use of Shadows.

 

That's a good point from both Zappo and Myrrh about Rift matter, and i will give props to Flora for finding a way to make it not painful, but it does show Flora and the rest of Bladestar are not above altering their Pokemon, so it's not out of character for them to use Shadow Pokemon, like i said, Flora is not the ringleader of Bladestar, there are other leaders beside her, and if Team Xen could recreate Cipher's Shadow Pokemon, i don't see why Bladestar couldn't too.

 

Lastly, Zappo, extracting the nano drive from Ana was pretty painful on her end, so my point still stands.  

Either way we'll get our answers in the future. 
@MyrrhNah man, it's cool, I don't mind at all. 

[Magus543]

5 minutes ago, ZappoNinja said:

Either way we'll get our answers in the future. 
@MyrrhNah man, it's cool, I don't mind at all. 

I actually love discussing lore, thanks for chatting.

[ZappoNinja]

4 minutes ago, Magus543 said:

I actually love discussing lore, thanks for chatting.

I like chatting lore too as then I'm reminded of certain things I may have forgotten/missed. And no problem.

[Myrrh]

27 minutes ago, Magus543 said:

if Team Xen could recreate Cipher's Shadow Pokemon, i don't see why Bladestar couldn't too.

1) Team Xen shows that it takes a lot of time and research to actually create Shadow Pokemon.  Remember, they have a hard time mass producing them.

 

2) If it was so easy to recreate Shadow Pokemon from scratch, then Nastasia would not have needed to have gone to the Backup Lab with Ren to fetch the research and data related to Shadow Pokemon.

 

3) Rift Pokemon are a lot easier to create and she had already stolen the only thing needed to make them.

 

4) As I said in one of my previous posts, Flora likely had not found anything on Shadow Pokemon in the lab she had raided for the reasons I had previously stated.

 

She also is an extremist who does crazy acts of terror to accomplish her goals.  She's crazy, which is why the game tries to use her love of Pokemon as an attempt to humanize her.

 

15 minutes ago, Magus543 said:

I actually love discussing lore, thanks for chatting.

Likewise on this for me.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Myrrh

[Fallen Savior Morgan]

16 minutes ago, Myrrh said:

1) Team Xen shows that it takes a lot of time and research to actually create Shadow Pokemon.  Remember, they have a hard time mass producing them.

 

2) If it was so easy to recreate Shadow Pokemon from scratch, then Nastasia would not have needed to have gone to the Backup Lab with Ren to fetch the research and data related to Shadow Pokemon.

 

3) Rift Pokemon are a lot easier to create and she had already stolen the only thing needed to make them.

 

4) As I said in one of my previous posts, Flora likely had not found anything on Shadow Pokemon in the lab she had raided for the reasons I had previously stated.

 

She also is an extremist who does crazy acts of terror to accomplish her goals.  She's crazy, which is why the game tries to use her love of Pokemon as an attempt to humanize her.

 

Likewise on this for me.

Man, who knew. This is new for me but it refreshed what i knew about Team Xen. Thanks @Myrrh

[Magus543]

Okay let's continue, 

25 minutes ago, Myrrh said:

1) Team Xen shows that it takes a lot of time and research to actually create Shadow Pokemon.  Remember, they have a hard time mass producing them.

 

2) If it was so easy to recreate Shadow Pokemon from scratch, then Nastasia would not have needed to have gone to the Backup Lab with Ren to fetch the research and data related to Shadow Pokemon.

 

3) Rift Pokemon are a lot easier to create and she had already stolen the only thing needed to make them.

 

4) As I said in one of my previous posts, Flora likely had not found anything on Shadow Pokemon in the lab she had raided for the reasons I had previously stated.

 

She also is an extremist who does crazy acts of terror to accomplish her goals.  She's crazy, which is why the game tries to use her love of Pokemon as an attempt to humanize her.

 

Likewise on this for me.

Yeah it takes a lot of time to mass produce, but having like 2 or 3 shadow pokemon on Team Bladestar wouldn't be so costly, i mean let's remember Team Xen grunts themselves didn't have much Shadow Pokemon themselves. My point about Team Bladestar being able to replicate Shadow Pokemon isn't about the ease, it's about the available data, the Meowth Team Xen Grunt mentions that they were able to recreate the lost Shadow Pokemon of Cipher or something to that effect, so they must have acquired the data from an outside source, something Bladestar would want to do, hell their underground lair in GDC is based on the Under at least according to Dylan so they are clearly aware of the events in Orre so it's not a stretch to assume they are at least aware of Shadow Pokemon and the process, and could easily obtain information from former Cipher members like Lovrina. Jail? What's that? Either way, assuming Team Xen does return eventually, i can see Shadow Pokemon, of course Jan has a BURNING HATRED of Magikarp so we won't see any cooler hardcore mons like Shadow Gyrados or Shadow Hydreigon. More stuff like Shadow Dedenne or Shadow Bruxish.

 

 

I will say this for Flora, she has a couple of Pet the Dog moments, like planting those color trees(relatively minor all things considered) helped save and supports Alexandra's tribe(more substantial) It's too bad, it's off camera. 

[Myrrh]

Maybe we'll see the return of the Shadow Froakie in the form of a Shadow Greninja?  I'd like that as a callback.

[Magus543]

1 minute ago, Myrrh said:

Maybe we'll see the return of the Shadow Froakie in the form of a Shadow Greninja?  I'd like that as a callback.

When did that happen? 

[Myrrh]

1 minute ago, Magus543 said:

When did that happen? 

In earlier versions of Rejuvenation, Zetta had a Shadow Froakie.